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sarabellum
08-29-2011, 9:00 PM
The Big 5 in Alameda is limiting secondary proof of residence for rifle purchases to vehicle registration only. What is the best way of addressing this matter?

taperxz
08-29-2011, 9:03 PM
The Big 5 in Alameda is limiting secondary proof of residence for rifle purchases to vehicle registration only. What is the best way of addressing this matter?

I didnt realize you needed that for long gun purchases.

ZombieTactics
08-29-2011, 9:03 PM
The best way is to send them (corporate management) receipts for the next few years of all the guns, ammo, camping equipment and sports gear that you buy from OTHER STORES, each with a brief discussion of why.

ElvenSoul
08-29-2011, 9:04 PM
Show them the Regs and hand them a lawyers biz card...tell them about CalGuns.

ke6guj
08-29-2011, 9:09 PM
I didnt realize you needed that for long gun purchases.legally, you don't. But if Big5 wants to add a company policy to require POR for long gun purchases, I don't think it is illegal for them to do so.

Bill Carson
08-29-2011, 9:11 PM
The Big 5 in Alameda is limiting secondary proof of residence for rifle purchases to vehicle registration only. What is the best way of addressing this matter?
They are wrong.

G60
08-29-2011, 9:11 PM
Lots of places require PoR for long gun purchases.
The Range in Fresno (Don't go there)

repubconserv
08-29-2011, 9:11 PM
The best way is to send them (corporate management) receipts for the next few years of all the guns, ammo, camping equipment and sports gear that you buy from OTHER STORES, each with a brief discussion of why.

this

taperxz
08-29-2011, 9:14 PM
legally, you don't. But if Big5 wants to add a company policy to require POR for long gun purchases, I don't think it is illegal for them to do so.

I know, i was being my sarcastic self again:D Here's the thing though, If we can get sheriffs to comply with LTC policies why can't we get a uniform code of compliance with ffl's? It should be a simple uniform practice that everyone follows.

sarabellum
08-29-2011, 9:16 PM
those are all good suggestions. Thanks folks.

philobeddoe
08-29-2011, 9:18 PM
The best way is to send them (corporate management) receipts for the next few years of all the guns, ammo, camping equipment and sports gear that you buy from OTHER STORES, each with a brief discussion of why.

Good idea.

Off topic, but I purchased a Mosin on special from Big 5 a number of years ago and the staff was really very rude and dissuasive. And then again, ducked in for ammo, but there was no one on staff licensed to sell it to me. Never went back, and that was years ago.

taperxz
08-29-2011, 9:21 PM
Good idea.

Off topic, but I purchased a Mosin on special from Big 5 a number of years ago and the staff was really very rude and dissuasive. And then again, ducked in for ammo, but there was no one on staff licensed to sell it to me. Never went back, and that was years ago.

You don't need and individual license to sell ammo.

philobeddoe
08-29-2011, 9:31 PM
You don't need and individual license to sell ammo.

yeah, but I wasn't going to stand there and argue that with a bunch of teenagers, maybe they weren't old enough to be allowed behind the gun counter - I should have mentioned the statement posted was what THEY told me, not what I believed to be the case ...,

I just thanked 'em and went elsewhere, forever.

justjeff
08-29-2011, 9:37 PM
I was in this predicament earlier this year my wife bought me a 700 from there (wedding gift). I went and did all the paperwork newb behind the counter just asked me to bring ins card........ 10 days in purgatory went by. I went in to pick up the rifle had my ins card in my wallet were it usually is. BAM no gun !!! I wasn't happy. They manager came out and I asked him what I needed and why they said ins card would be good ? His exact words " It has to have a GOVT stamp/seal. so I pulled out social security card paper work (what you get while waiting for card to come in the mail) He said ohh this will work and here's 10% off anything in the store. I said ok just to get my gun.
Anyone could have made this paper it had a letter head from s/s office and my name and mailing address to confirm it was the right address. No watermark or embossing whatnot. These guys are screwed up big time. Now I just journey up to Parallax Tact. Joe is awesome and will help you try and get anything.

All in all my Big-5 exp. was frustrating and if it wasn't such a good deal I would have just got my cash back and left.

CpuFixrMan
08-29-2011, 9:47 PM
Sooo... if one doesn't actually OWN a vehicle, and therefore doesn't have a vehicle registration... do you have to show a copy of your bicycle license? LOL

philobeddoe
08-29-2011, 9:52 PM
Last time I was picking up, I think they said a utility bill would do, didn't have one, and my vehicle is registered to my job ... I was SOL, my motorcycle registration wasn't handy, it was like 60 miles away. Crummy day it was.

tenpercentfirearms
08-30-2011, 7:08 AM
It is amazing to me that any business would want to subject themselves to more paperwork and hassle. Especially a business that hires inexperienced staff that have a hard time understanding these complex laws as it is.

I would vote with your wallet and tell them they are losing out because of the hassle.

voiceofreason
08-30-2011, 7:59 AM
Perhaps some executives at Big5 care more about their anti-gun stance than the bottom line of the company?

robcoe
08-30-2011, 8:22 AM
The Big 5 in Alameda is limiting secondary proof of residence for rifle purchases to vehicle registration only. What is the best way of addressing this matter?

Buy from somewhere else.

CalNRA
08-30-2011, 8:24 AM
that store has always been at the forefront of idiotic paperwork requirements among all the big 5.

Tell them to talk to their regional manager and see what he says.

taperxz
08-30-2011, 9:31 AM
that store has always been at the forefront of idiotic paperwork requirements among all the big 5.

Tell them to talk to their regional manager and see what he says.

While this may be true, i don't think we as gunners should complain to much in regards to Big 5. Contacting them for a review of their policies might be in order but we certainly don't want to discourage one of the few "chains" in CA that DO sell firearms!!

KylaGWolf
08-30-2011, 9:44 AM
Now see I luck out in this respect. I have my handicap Placard in my wallet. That is what I use for my second form of ID. I don't have anything else that would qualify for that. I don't have any bills or the such that come in my name. As to Big 5 it seems that their policies can be iffy at best. Not to mention at a couple of the ones here in San Diego you will be lucky if you can get anyone to even wait on you in the gun section.

morfeeis
08-30-2011, 10:23 AM
The best way is to send them (corporate management) receipts for the next few years of all the guns, ammo, camping equipment and sports gear that you buy from OTHER STORES, each with a brief discussion of why.
I like the way you think......

thedrickel
08-30-2011, 5:22 PM
Step 1 - Does your current address (on the 4473) match your driver's license?

If no - you must provide alternate documentation of government origin with your address on it. Municipal utility bill and vehicle registration are the easiest.

If yes - tell them to **** off and hand over your long gun.

dantodd
08-30-2011, 5:43 PM
We need dearth so we can tell these guys to pound sand.

Falconis
08-30-2011, 6:03 PM
Ehhh Big 5 in Alameda has issues beyond this ....

ETD1010
08-30-2011, 10:45 PM
PoR is required for long guns (and handguns) FEDERALLY, if the ID you use does not show your current address. Question 20(b) is the box needed to fill in. Read the instructions on the 4473 for that question, and it states the acceptable forms of alternate proof of residency.

*note: This is not to be confused with CALIFORNIA'S requirement for proof of residency for HANDGUN purchases, regardless of whether or not your ID has your current address. also, the forms accepted by California are not the same as the requirements for the ATF (though a couple overlap).

TBX
08-30-2011, 10:47 PM
Big 5 on Florin and Greenhaven in Sacramento practices this also. I overheard the manager last monday 8/22/11 telling the customer that only a government issued document is an acceptable proof of income. The customer asked "how about my PG&E bill?" and the manager replied NO. After that, I left to the other Big 5 on Mack Rd by Hwy 99 and bought a Benelli shotgun there. I went through a bad experience there as well but bought the shotgun anyways. I'll make a post tomorrow regarding my bad experience with them. I'm also going to ask some of you veteran calgun members for some help answering my questions and concerns tomorrow when I make the post.

I'll keep ya posted

kiloechovictor
08-30-2011, 11:15 PM
Ehhh Big 5 in Alameda has issues beyond this ....

^That. I wanted to sell another Calgunner my Sig522 a couple years back. Those clowns at the Alameda Big 5 wanted $65 to perform the PPT. That kind of stupidity that has that kind of inertia isn't worth fighting. Any updates?

SDiegoShooter
08-31-2011, 12:43 AM
Now I just journey up to Parallax Tact. Joe is awesome and will help you try and get anything.

Joe is awesome as are the other guys at Parallax Tactical. I've never had someone in a gun store happily suggest he can special order something for me and do a single shot conversion, and still give me a lower price that anyone else by far.

Anchors
08-31-2011, 1:39 AM
It is amazing to me that any business would want to subject themselves to more paperwork and hassle. Especially a business that hires inexperienced staff that have a hard time understanding these complex laws as it is.

I would vote with your wallet and tell them they are losing out because of the hassle.

Exactly.
Get your C&R FFL (also qualifies as second proof of residency, maybe not at Big 5 though...who knows with them). It is only $30 for three years!

Then you can get your Mosins and some SKS sent to your front door and not deal with DROS, waiting, and Big 5's BS.

oni.dori
08-31-2011, 2:12 AM
That's strange, when I bought an M91/30 from them a few months ago here in Ventura County, they didn't require any other proof of residency other than my driver's license.

HisDivineShadow
08-31-2011, 8:17 AM
I have not encountered this at SoCal Big5's. I have bought long-arms at the San Dimas, Pomona, and Upland stores and they never required this. The most recent was a GSG-522 about 2 months ago at the Upland store.

sarabellum
08-31-2011, 10:14 AM
This is the chain of correspondence at Big 5:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sent: Wed 8/31/11 9:15 AM
Hello,
Thank you for your gracious reply. A form is not the law. However, note the rules as identified by your emails below and the practices at the Big 5 in Alameda do not concur even with the form. Your managers at Alameda demanded "vehicle registration" as the only acceptable secondary proof of address. The form cited below states "government issued documents." Government issued documents without further regulatory elucidation can be a professional license, letter from a government agency, C&R license, hunting license, court judgment, library card, or ATF license. Notably, 27 CFR 478.124 does not provide for "government issued" documents to show residence address information. Section 478.124 discusses proof of identity. My drivers license was conclusive as to identity. Section 478.124(c)(2) provides that a Social Security number may be provided to "... enable NICS to verify the identity of the person acquiring the firearm, ATF Form 4473 also requests certain optional information. This information includes the transferee's social security number. Such information may help avoid the possibility of the transferee being misidentified as a felon or other prohibited person." I provided a Social Security number.

Thus far, your managers at Alameda have done as follows. On August 27, 2011 they did not have the forms to transfer the rifles selected and asked me to come back on another day. They Alameda staff did not provide me with a list of documents or requirements to complete the sale. On August 29, 2011, I returned to the store, where Marshall informed me for the first time that I needed to have a vehicle registration to prove my address and that I needed to buy 2 Big 5 gun locks if I wanted to complete the sale. When I told him that I would obtain them elsewhere, he stated that the locks needed to state "DOJ approved." On August 31, 2011 I returned to Alameda where I was greeted by a female manager, without a name tag. I presented my vehicle registration and 2 brand new Cal. DOJ gunlocks in the package. She demanded that I present receipts for the gunlocks otherwise, "you have to buy our gunlocks if you want to complete the sale." When I asked her for a law requiring that I purchase Big 5's gun locks, she had no answer.

If I return, this will be the 4th trip to Alameda. I do not see it as coincidental that both managers did not have a list, were doling out information, and then pressing the "requirement" to buy the Big 5 gunlocks. The Big 5's policy of limiting secondary forms of identification to vehicle registration (especially when not needed) and requiring purchase of Big 5 under the guise of a legal requirement are not the practices that I would expect from a reputable sporting goods store.

It is wasteful of my time and resources for the Big 5 to not provide a written checklist of the requirements before hand, to have me going back and forth...

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

+++++++++++++++++++++
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 10:09:26 -0700
Subject: RE: Big5SportingGoods.com - Contact Page

In this case, we are referring to a requirement spelled out directly on the form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record). This is a federal requirement, not a state requirement. In the Notices, Instructions and Definitions potion of the form, Section B., Question 20 a. Identification, it reads:

“Know Your Customer: Before a licensee may sell or deliver a firearm to a nonlicensee, the licensee must establish the identity, place of residence, and age of the buyer. The buyer must provide a valid government-issued photo identification to the seller that contains the buyer’s name, residence address, and date of birth… A combination of government issued documents may be provided.”

We work closely with the ATF and the California Department of Justice, and we have had this point clarified on numerous occasions. This requirement is not proof of residency (to establish residency in the state), but a government-issued document showing the purchaser’s current physical address (to meet the requirements of the 4473 form). So if your photo ID does not have your current address, we can still take it along with another government issued document that does.
Big 5 Corp
+++++++++++++++++++++
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 9:17 AM

Thank you for your gracious reply. Penal Code section 12071(b)(8) does not provide for government issued documents as being the sole source for addresses. It provides that leases and utility bills qualify. I am concerned that Big 5 has unwittingly mistaken the handgun sale requirements with the sale of rifles. If there is a law limiting the proof of residence to government issued documents and applies it to rifle sales please advise so I may familiarize myself with it and pass it on to my club, Calguns.net.

Over the years I and the members of my clubs have spent thousands of dollars on sporting goods from the Big 5, as indicia of our confidence in the Big 5's commitment to compliance with state regulations and the needs of hunters. I would not want our long standing relationship to be compromised by a misunderstanding of law. Thank you for your attention to this matter. If I can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.


Any thoughts?

SarcoBlaster
08-31-2011, 12:14 PM
Easy. **** them and shop somewhere else.

smt77
08-31-2011, 12:29 PM
Maybe I'm mistaken, but isn't the 4473 requirement for proof of current address completely separate from the state penal code? If the OP did not have a current address on their DL, then it is a federal issue for the proof of address, not a state requirement.

gregs887
08-31-2011, 1:50 PM
That's strange, when I bought an M91/30 from them a few months ago here in Ventura County, they didn't require any other proof of residency other than my driver's license.

X2 at both the Thousand Oaks and Simi Valley locations. Maybe it's a county thing?

tenpercentfirearms
08-31-2011, 2:10 PM
This is the chain of correspondence at Big 5:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Any thoughts?

You don't fully understand what you are talking about, yet your criticize them. First, it is a federal requirement for your DL or ID address to match your 4473 address. It has nothing to do with the state. Quoting penal code in this case shows you have no clue what you are talking about.

Then you go on a tirade about your social security number? Further proof you have no clue. Anyone that knows what they are doing never puts their social security number on a 4473 as it proves nothing. It is not submitted to the CA DOJ through DROS. It just sits on that form for all of the minimum wage Big 5 employees to copy down along with the copy of your DL. And when the employee said to you, "I think my parents went to school with your parents, isn't your mom's maiden name Smith?" and you reply, "No it was Jones", now they have everything they need to open credit in your name.

If you are going to attempt to avoid PC 12088.1(a), then you will need to comply with 12088.1(e). Which states (e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.You make no mention that you brought in a receipt, which is probably why the manager asked for your receipt. The manager was correct, but apparently you don't want to acknowledge that.

No one cares that it is wasteful to your time and resources because Big 5 doesn't hold your hand through big boy business. You buy cheap guns from a big chain retail store and you want them to provide you a checklist? That is laughable at best.

You get what you pay for. You want to use Big 5, then don't be surprised when you aren't treated like a king. As has been suggested, you might want to consider doing business elsewhere. I would certainly recommend you become a little more knowledgable about state and Federal firearms laws before you erroneously criticize others.

djleisure
08-31-2011, 2:23 PM
I didn't read through this entire thread, but the only thing that struck me as odd was that they require vehicle registration for 2nd form of proof. Wouldn't that go against the Americans With Disabilities Act or something like that? It seems like it is a LOT to assume a legal gun owner MUST be capable of driving and have their own vehicle... but like I said, maybe that was already addressed?

tenpercentfirearms
08-31-2011, 3:35 PM
I didn't read through this entire thread, but the only thing that struck me as odd was that they require vehicle registration for 2nd form of proof. Wouldn't that go against the Americans With Disabilities Act or something like that? It seems like it is a LOT to assume a legal gun owner MUST be capable of driving and have their own vehicle... but like I said, maybe that was already addressed?

Well according to the OP they only accept vehicle registration. However, the OP has mistakenly claimed other falicies in this thread. If you go by Big5's response, they understand that it "if your photo ID does not have your current address, we can still take it along with another government issued document that does. "

Again, the more I read, the more I am convinced the OP really is at a loss of understanding at the issues at hand as is evident by If there is a law limiting the proof of residence to government issued documents and applies it to rifle sales please advise so I may familiarize myself with it and pass it on to my club, Calguns.net.Yes the 4473 is very clear that Federal proof of residency requirements can only be a government issued document. However, you do not have to pass it on to "your club" at Calguns.net, because we already understand the requirements. I did all of that work for you already.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=327217

bodega bob
08-31-2011, 3:50 PM
The Big 5 in Alameda has always treated me just fine. The young ladies at the San Leandro store used the store computer to locate the last Marlin 1894C in the area, so I went to Alameda to get it. (I got a discount too.) The more firearms-savvy guy who did the paperwork said he would do futures transfer if I wanted, and gave me his business card.

I am satisfied with all my experiences at Big 5, and wish we still had more sporting goods stores that sold guns and ammo.

Anchors
08-31-2011, 4:57 PM
In that email, they think you're talking about an ID that doesn't match your address.

We're talking about them requiring a second form of residency even if your ID/DL is valid..

bigrod
09-03-2011, 12:32 AM
The Big 5 in Alameda is limiting secondary proof of residence for rifle purchases to vehicle registration only. What is the best way of addressing this matter?

I drosed a Mosin last Thursday at the Alameda store and I asked the manager if I needed to run out and get my car registration. He said my CDL was all he needed. This was a weekday evening an hour before closing. The manager wasn't too thrilled to have to process paperwork at that time of the day.

I pick it up on Sunday and I'm sure there will be some sort of problem. The guy just seemed very out of it that day. The 10 day wait for this C&R milsurp did motivate me to send off my FLL03 app :p

oni.dori
09-03-2011, 1:45 AM
X2 at both the Thousand Oaks and Simi Valley locations. Maybe it's a county thing?

It must be, although I know it is a state-wide thing for handguns. I even asked when I picked it up just to check and make sure, and they said no.

blazeaglory
09-03-2011, 10:51 AM
While this may be true, i don't think we as gunners should complain to much in regards to Big 5. Contacting them for a review of their policies might be in order but we certainly don't want to discourage one of the few "chains" in CA that DO sell firearms!!

No way! We shouldnt have to bow down to a business just because they sell guns in California. How is it possible that one can go into big 5 and have such an awful experience and then go into a different store and have no problems? That is big 5's issue and they need to correct it.

Thre are enough gun stores in California that we shouldnt have to bend over for big 5's business.

CalNRA
09-03-2011, 11:02 AM
While this may be true, i don't think we as gunners should complain to much in regards to Big 5. Contacting them for a review of their policies might be in order but we certainly don't want to discourage one of the few "chains" in CA that DO sell firearms!!

I have visited the store in question many, many times over the last 4-5 years or so.

We are helping them by telling them to call their regional manager. AFAIK they have no proof of residency policies and the ALameda store probably does it to cover its rear out of fear of....its location.

In fact I talked to their regional manager overseeing firearm sales he told me that he had to set the previous store manager at the Alameda store straight and not impose any local store policy like that. He wasn't too happy about it, for sure. Real nice guy.

Ksmash01
09-13-2011, 8:30 PM
I have visited the store in question many, many times over the last 4-5 years or so.

We are helping them by telling them to call their regional manager. AFAIK they have no proof of residency policies and the ALameda store probably does it to cover its rear out of fear of....its location.

In fact I talked to their regional manager overseeing firearm sales he told me that he had to set the previous store manager at the Alameda store straight and not impose any local store policy like that. He wasn't too happy about it, for sure. Real nice guy.


Do you remember his name(both the "regional manager" and the "previous store manager") I know you know that I work for the company and used to work for that store. I know of no such requirement, except if the address on the DL/ID isn't current, or has a PO Box. However, there are MANY documents that I would accept beyond a valid vehicle registration.

If you can remember names, I can get more details.

No way! We shouldnt have to bow down to a business just because they sell guns in California. How is it possible that one can go into big 5 and have such an awful experience and then go into a different store and have no problems? That is big 5's issue and they need to correct it.

Thre are enough gun stores in California that we shouldnt have to bend over for big 5's business.


I'm sure the OP has been completely misunderstood. After reading the entire thread I'm lead to believe 2 things happened, 1 being normal, 1 being not good. The first being the ID didn't have the current address, or did have a PO Box. The second, the Alameda store is limiting the "government issued document containing the buyers current physical address"(I don't have a 4473 in front of me, so I can't quote everything, but that's basicaly it) to a DMV vehicle registration. That part is wrong.

OP, if you want to send me the details from your perspective, providing me with any necessary info, I can get to the bottom of the issue for you.

Rhythm of Life
09-13-2011, 8:33 PM
Perhaps some executives at Big5 care more about their anti-gun stance than the bottom line of the company?

I've worked at Big 5, had a Regional manager tell me to take prices off of items.....

Had my District manager tell me to put a clearance kids shoes display in the middle of our D-1 (firearm) dept.

****ing clueless idiots.

erikdjs
09-13-2011, 11:52 PM
The best way is to send them (corporate management) receipts for the next few years of all the guns, ammo, camping equipment and sports gear that you buy from OTHER STORES, each with a brief discussion of why.

+1 Money talks.

cbn620
09-14-2011, 3:46 AM
I like Big 5 a lot and defend them because they have always basically done me right even if they're not the most informed. But if my ID is ever not good enough to buy a long gun and they won't accept a PG&E bill but ONLY vehicle registration I would not do so, and further refuse to give them one red cent on general principle. If I had paid any fees up to that point such as DROS I would be more than happy to eat that loss, demand the money back on the purchase itself, and take my business elsewhere.

tenpercentfirearms
09-14-2011, 6:50 AM
But if my ID is ever not good enough to buy a long gun and they won't accept a PG&E bill but ONLY vehicle registration I would not do so, and further refuse to give them one red cent on general principle.

I would be careful with your ultimatum. First, if your DL address is current, then yes you shouldn't need any further proof of residence as Big 5 doesn't sell handguns and you have met the federal requirements.

However, if your DL address is not current, then they would be breaking federal law in accepting your PG&E bill. You would in effect be taking your money else where out of the principle that they do not accept invalid documentation from you. I am not quite sure what your point is there.

For federal 4473 rules, you must provide a government issued document. PG&E is not the government. Vehicle registration is, but it isn't the only one.

vincnet11
02-25-2012, 1:40 AM
I just DROS'd a rifle at Big 5 yesterday they aren't requiring secondary proof of recidency if your CDL or CID has your current address. Just to clarify some of the midlead discussions.