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awall919
08-29-2011, 6:11 PM
So basically, Iv run into a series of horribly bad luck involving firearms lately.
Problems w/ pistol purchase, issues w/ DROSing an AR lower. Now...

Id prefer to keep the details brief, but the short of it is a few of my guns are literally
"in jail". was shooting on BLM land and a few of my guns were confiscated by local deputies wrongfully. Went through the process to be able to legally get them back... except, I have to show proof of ownership of guns as when the P.D did a serial # search, the firearms came back unregistered. Confusing since none were c&R and all were properly DROSed.

Question: What is the easiest way to acquire proof of ownership of my firearms? I can only find receipts for 1. They were all purchased between 2-5 years ago, one from big 5 so I dont thing trying to acquire proof of purchase from the stores is an option. Anybody with ideas? I could use some advice.

HowardW56
08-29-2011, 6:19 PM
So basically, Iv run into a series of horribly bad luck involving firearms lately.
Problems w/ pistol purchase, issues w/ DROSing an AR lower. Now...

Id prefer to keep the details brief, but the short of it is a few of my guns are literally
"in jail". was shooting on BLM land and a few of my guns were confiscated by local deputies wrongfully. Went through the process to be able to legally get them back... except, I have to show proof of ownership of guns as when the P.D did a serial # search, the firearms came back unregistered. Confusing since none were c&R and all were properly DROSed.

Question: What is the easiest way to acquire proof of ownership of my firearms? I can only find receipts for 1. They were all purchased between 2-5 years ago, one from big 5 so I dont thing trying to acquire proof of purchase from the stores is an option. Anybody with ideas? I could use some advice.

Assuming that they are long guns, they aren't registered, the DROS process on long guns only verify's that you are eligible to own them....

Paging bwiese ....................

Paging Oaklander.................

Paging wildhawker ...............

HEY GENE .............................


One of them will pop up and offer advice, or ask for the details in a private message

HowardW56
08-29-2011, 6:24 PM
Contact The Calguns Foundation (see the thread below for more info)

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=245866

awall919
08-29-2011, 6:26 PM
thanks howardW55, I will check link now. I recently met oaklander, he is a good man and knows his stuff for sure. Thanks.

Norsemen308
08-29-2011, 6:27 PM
long guns are not registered... please let us know how this happend, this scares the crap out of me, as I NEVER want this to happen while out in calico.

taperxz
08-29-2011, 6:34 PM
Bye not giving the rifles back to you is accusing you of having stolen property. Something they must prove beyond a reasonable doubt. If they can't prove it, they must give the rifles back to the person they took them from.

wildhawker
08-29-2011, 6:36 PM
Send us an email with the specifics to hotline@calgunsfoundation.org.

-Brandon

So basically, Iv run into a series of horribly bad luck involving firearms lately.
Problems w/ pistol purchase, issues w/ DROSing an AR lower. Now...

Id prefer to keep the details brief, but the short of it is a few of my guns are literally
"in jail". was shooting on BLM land and a few of my guns were confiscated by local deputies wrongfully. Went through the process to be able to legally get them back... except, I have to show proof of ownership of guns as when the P.D did a serial # search, the firearms came back unregistered. Confusing since none were c&R and all were properly DROSed.

Question: What is the easiest way to acquire proof of ownership of my firearms? I can only find receipts for 1. They were all purchased between 2-5 years ago, one from big 5 so I dont thing trying to acquire proof of purchase from the stores is an option. Anybody with ideas? I could use some advice.

Anchors
08-29-2011, 6:39 PM
Tagged for future development. Scary!

HowardW56
08-29-2011, 6:39 PM
There is your answer.....

It seems paging works.....:laugh:

awall919
08-29-2011, 6:52 PM
I was shooting on some obviously marked BLM land, Been shooting here for years. Local sheriff deputies showed up, informed my mother, friend and I that it was not legal to shoot there as It was private land. I tried to inform him of the posted signs respectfully to no avail. Convinced we were "illegally shooting", he insisted on running the serial numbers on all the firearms present. All were properly DROSed, not even a C&R with us but for some reason 4 of the firearms appearently came back unregistered. so he felt he was in the right and confiscated the firearms, One of which was my mothers who PPTd it from a police officer. Iv spoken with the courts, the department/court admitted it was a mistake and gave me a waiver to get them back, but the whole Proof of ownership is an issue.
Im not sure how or why the guns came back unregistered but because of it I have to jump through hoops to get proof to get them back. We were shooting safely, legally, with completely legal DRODed firearms, they also have my glock 17 i bought myself on my 21st b-day:(

fiddletown
08-29-2011, 8:56 PM
Hopefully the Calguns Foundation will be able to help.

However, this illustrates why it can be a good idea to keep records/receipts/paperwork for your firearm purchases.

philobeddoe
08-29-2011, 9:03 PM
These issues frighten me. I think people truly struggle with the definition of "shall not be infringed," and I truly resent fearing I've been turned into a criminal. It's shameful.
These matters are chilling, and constitute egregious and grievous infringement.

Good luck.

stix213
08-29-2011, 10:35 PM
I'd like to see departments sued for civil rights violations with this "confiscate and let the courts sort it out" behavior. Not sure if that's possible.

Pred@tor
08-29-2011, 11:57 PM
A similar situation happened with a friend of mine and I shooting out in the Rinconada Mine where it used to be legal to shoot but about June 2008 it wasn't apparently anymore. The USDA guy confronted us with his M4 and we complied with his instructions. My friend was kinda pissed about the whole thing... He took our guns and at first he was trying to tell us we were gonna have to go to court for them. (I wasn't gonna waste money trying to get em back either) I had my two C&R rifles a SKS and Mn 91/30. He even tried to tell me my SKS was illegal since it has a bayonet. (lol) My friend had his pistols and other rifles... The guy ran the numbers and none of these guns came back "registered" either. Mine were all acquired privately as they were C&Rs. Even though all my friend's pistols were DROSed.... He acted with discretion just because he saw my Military ID because he was former Air Force (security Forces) and I was/currently serving in the Air Force. He just laid the guns on my buddy's SUV and said he was afraid of being shot lol... Gosh paranoid... talk about a last "fun" visit to my home state. I just paid the 150 dollar fine and said screw it... My friend is a cal gun's member here too...

Sorry about your situation pal... that sucks and I just got lucky... I don't understand the whole Rinconada Mine either... Apparently now it says you have to have a hunting license to go shoot there or something? I dunno I haven't been home in 3 years to see for myself. Anyway good luck with your deal Op.

oni.dori
08-30-2011, 1:17 AM
Send us an email with the specifics to hotline@calgunsfoundation.org.

-Brandon

:lurk5: Sombody's gonna get in TROUBLE!!! lol

Mssr. Eleganté
08-30-2011, 5:57 AM
...but for some reason 4 of the firearms appearently came back unregistered...

Im not sure how or why the guns came back unregistered...

As was mentioned above, the guns came back unregistered because long guns are not registered. It would be the same as the cop confiscating your pants because your pants weren't registered.

Attiic
08-30-2011, 12:39 PM
As was mentioned above, the guns came back unregistered because long guns are not registered. It would be the same as the cop confiscating your pants because your pants weren't registered.

What about the Glock mentioned in post #10?

jaymz
08-30-2011, 3:36 PM
Hand them the property receipt you got (hopefully) when your guns were taken. Very politely tell them "here is my proof of ownership - you took them from me, ran the s/n's, did not show up as stolen, therefore they are mine". If that doesn't work, contact CGF and they will go bat**** crazy on 'em if need be!

philobeddoe
08-30-2011, 3:37 PM
Hand them the property receipt you got (hopefully) when your guns were taken. Very politely tell them "here is my proof of ownership - you took them from me, ran the s/n's, did not show up as stolen, therefore they are mine". If that doesn't work, contact CGF and they will go bat**** crazy on 'em if need be!

that sounds about right to those living under the rule of law, and subscribing to the tenets of logic and reason,

but how will it work in real life?

jaymz
08-30-2011, 3:44 PM
Refer to last sentence of my previous post. There you'll find the answer to your question young grasshopper!

awall919
08-30-2011, 4:14 PM
Thanks for the advice. All the officer gave me was a citation. no mention of any of the firearms on it though. The dept has acknowledged they have them and have been ordered by the court to give them back but they wont unless I have this stupid proof of ownership settled, I figure ill have to call ATF or DOJ to see IF I can get proof from them. I may have to make that E-mail to the CGF, was hoping for a civil solution to the issue but i seem to be the only one acting so. Perhaps there just buying time to pull all the things they want from them.

mrdd
08-30-2011, 4:34 PM
Thanks for the advice. All the officer gave me was a citation. no mention of any of the firearms on it though. The dept has acknowledged they have them and have been ordered by the court to give them back but they wont unless I have this stupid proof of ownership settled, I figure ill have to call ATF or DOJ to see IF I can get proof from them. I may have to make that E-mail to the CGF, was hoping for a civil solution to the issue but i seem to be the only one acting so. Perhaps there just buying time to pull all the things they want from them.

Contacting CGF has nothing to do with civility. It sounds like the LEA is refusing to observe the law, so they need an education. It is doubtful that either ATF or DOJ is going to help, that is not their job.

Seriously, we need to be proactive about these sorts of situations because they can potentially affect all owners of firearms. Please contact CGF.

taperxz
08-30-2011, 4:37 PM
Thanks for the advice. All the officer gave me was a citation. no mention of any of the firearms on it though. The dept has acknowledged they have them and have been ordered by the court to give them back but they wont unless I have this stupid proof of ownership settled, I figure ill have to call ATF or DOJ to see IF I can get proof from them. I may have to make that E-mail to the CGF, was hoping for a civil solution to the issue but i seem to be the only one acting so. Perhaps there just buying time to pull all the things they want from them.
If you have not contacted CGF yet I have no sympathy for you! Brandon told you to email him the details!

taperxz
08-30-2011, 4:38 PM
CGF is about as civil as you can get BTW for gun owners anyway, not so sure how the govt. Or LE feel about it. :)

glockman19
08-30-2011, 4:40 PM
This is always keep a paper file of all purchases and DROS.

fiddletown
08-30-2011, 6:55 PM
...All the officer gave me was a citation. no mention of any of the firearms on it though....They should have at least given you an itemized receipt listing the serial numbers. Besides failing to do so being sloppy procedure, I wouldn't be surprised if their failure to provide a detailed receipt violated their agency's policies.

Document everything and contact CGF.

I wold argue that you had the guns peacefully in your possession, and unless they can show that there's a superior claim (e. g., one was reported stolen), they will need to honor your claim. But it's possible that you will need to force that conclusion upon them, and that's where the CGF might come in.

(And let's all remember to keep our records of all firearm acquisitions and sales.)

Cokebottle
08-30-2011, 7:30 PM
I have to show proof of ownership of guns as when the P.D did a serial # search, the firearms came back unregistered. Confusing since none were c&R and all were properly DROSed.
Long guns are not registered.
The DROS information for long guns is discarded after 5 days... and no make/model/serial number is transmitted.
ONLY handguns are registered unless you pay the $19 and file a VolReg.


Yes... Return to the FFL and request a copy of your 4473/DROS paperwork. They are required to keep it on file for 20 years.

In the future, get a pack of those small manila envelopes and put your owner's manuals, DROS/4473 copies, and receipt in it.
Label the envelope with the make/model/serial number, and store it in a secondary safe separate from the main gun safe.


Where on BLM were you?

Cokebottle
08-30-2011, 7:32 PM
:lurk5: Sombody's gonna get in TROUBLE!!! lol
;)

:gura:

huntercf
08-30-2011, 8:38 PM
You could file a stolen property report and put down the LEO's name as the person who took them. Since the court already ordered them to give back your property and they have essentially refused they are now in posession of stolen property which I believe is a felony in this state and you can perform a citizen's arrest (even if it is a misdemeanor you can still arrest because you witnessed the theft). I would recommend that you drive the speed limit and make sure all your lights work though after doing this.
Now that I have gone overboard with my advice it is probably best to contact CFG or a lawyer and have them hand their a**es to them on a platter. IMHO I still believe the LEO committed armed robbery under color of authority because knowing that long guns are not registered is basic knowledge.

Norsemen308
08-30-2011, 8:41 PM
What about the Glock mentioned in post #10?

glock should have popped up, but it sounds like another officer with a sack of raisins he probably took all of them after 2 long guns popped back "unregistered"

egDonald
08-31-2011, 3:50 PM
This is a bit disconcerting to read.

am I to understand that wherever and whenever I travel with firearms I need to carry "proof of ownership" (ie. receipt) with me?

I believe it was either here on CGF.net or some other firearm forum where I read that it's ridiculous to expect someone to carry proof of ownership with the firearm.
... and this part stuck like glue:
it's as ridiculous as asking "... proof of ownership for the shirt you're wearing!"

aermotor
08-31-2011, 4:04 PM
Scary. Hoping for some CGF input and resolution.

philobeddoe
08-31-2011, 4:05 PM
my mom writes my name in all of my shirts

Shellshocker66
08-31-2011, 4:13 PM
That is just scary! I hope the OP gets this resolved and please update us on what is happening!

fiddletown
08-31-2011, 4:21 PM
...am I to understand that wherever and whenever I travel with firearms I need to carry "proof of ownership" (ie. receipt) with me?

I believe it was either here on CGF.net or some other firearm forum where I read that it's ridiculous to expect someone to carry proof of ownership with the firearm.....Yes, it is ridiculous. That doesn't mean it can't happen that you might need to either come up with some documentation establishing ownership or spend a bunch of money to litigate the question.

wildhawker
08-31-2011, 5:59 PM
Scary. Hoping for some CGF input and resolution.

As far as I know, we have not been contacted.

-Brandon

awall919
09-05-2011, 2:01 PM
CGF was not contacted as shortly after my last post I received a call back from the court saying it was okay to pick them up and that if the Dept gave me any issues involving the return of my firearms that they would like his name to file a complaint. I called the dept and told them to contact the court directly, gave the officer the name of the person to talk to and after a bit of cat and mouse on the phone that I could pick them up anytime.
Im not too sure what happened but they told me as long as I can give them the serial #s there will be no issues. Though I made a HUGE mistake not keeping the receipts, I do keep a log which includes all of my firearms info including aftermarket parts on the firearms. Though I was very close to calling CGF, I felt that with the info given from other cal gunners was enough to get the ball moving on my own (which fortunately it was). Id much prefer CGFs time be used for other more pressing issues at hand, though if the Dept did not inform me that they were available for pick up the call would have been made. I do hope the Dept does take note of the wrongful procedures so they do not make the same issues again.
Thank you all for the help, advice and support. I hope nothing like this happens to anybody else, as it was a real drag, but in the end I will have my firearms back tomorrow.

huntercf
09-05-2011, 3:03 PM
CGF was not contacted as shortly after my last post I received a call back from the court saying it was okay to pick them up and that if the Dept gave me any issues involving the return of my firearms that they would like his name to file a complaint. I called the dept and told them to contact the court directly, gave the officer the name of the person to talk to and after a bit of cat and mouse on the phone that I could pick them up anytime.
Im not too sure what happened but they told me as long as I can give them the serial #s there will be no issues. Though I made a HUGE mistake not keeping the receipts, I do keep a log which includes all of my firearms info including aftermarket parts on the firearms. Though I was very close to calling CGF, I felt that with the info given from other cal gunners was enough to get the ball moving on my own (which fortunately it was). Id much prefer CGFs time be used for other more pressing issues at hand, though if the Dept did not inform me that they were available for pick up the call would have been made. I do hope the Dept does take note of the wrongful procedures so they do not make the same issues again.
Thank you all for the help, advice and support. I hope nothing like this happens to anybody else, as it was a real drag, but in the end I will have my firearms back tomorrow.

Congrats! Your story really bothered me because I have a few long guns that were bought for me over 30 years ago and I don't have receipts. Glad to hear it all worked out, sorry you had to go through that.