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View Full Version : SB798 (deLeon) tradeoff games: throw one gun under the bus for benefit of another...


bwiese
08-29-2011, 3:35 PM
Appears the paintball industry is befriending Kevin deLeon "somehow".

Bill is in flux. Paintball may be protected from the political attacks on BB guns.

Appears they're giving statewide preemption to paintball guns but are gonna allow future dings/tweaks (even at local level) to BB/pellet guns.

SanPedroShooter
08-29-2011, 3:42 PM
I read a press release from a paintball company somewhere about the "california legislature recognizing that paintball guns are use for sport etc... and dont look like real guns etc... and the law would not apply to guns that fire projectiles over a certian size"
and that they had been working "closely" with senator deleon.

Wildeman_13
08-29-2011, 3:53 PM
So the paintball guns that look just like AR15s and such would still be OK because of this? Seems to me that this one example deflates the whole argument of Paintball guns don't look like real guns. ;)

RazzB7
08-29-2011, 3:54 PM
I'm involved in airsoft AS A SPORT quite a bit (don't hate). I've been following SB 798 pretty closely. Paintball has gotten themselves excluded from this bill twice now. Both times they have immediately thrown their support behind it.

See: paintball support of SB 798 (http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3624947)

"For now, if you live in the district of Senate member De Leon, it would be helpful to contact him and thank him for amending the legislation to exclude paintball. If you are not sure if Senator DeLeon is your Senator, you can find out here:

http://www.pbnation.com/out.php?l=ht...Fframepage.asp

Let him know that you fully support the amended bill. You can contact him by visiting http://sd22.senate.ca.gov/ and then clicking the right side email button."

It bothers me that the paintball camp would so quickly throw their support behind a bill just because they managed to lobby themselves out of harm's way.

Obviously, I oppose SB798 for a lot of personal reasons. But even if I wasn't directly involved in airsoft as I am...I would still oppose this legislation. It's not a far reach from what he's trying to do here to make some more legislation further affecting 2A rights. At this point, I oppose any legislation DeLeon supports. I've found the man to have no agenda I want to support. Even fitted sheets.

SanPedroShooter
08-29-2011, 3:58 PM
Yeah, "gee thanks kevin for writing us out, **** those other guys! Have a nice day."

Signed, Paintballer(?)

curtisfong
08-29-2011, 4:29 PM
Wow. What a bunch of pathetic sellouts.

MajorMalphunction
08-29-2011, 4:52 PM
I'm glad that I never gave into the industry. I've been playing airsoft for years and it angers me to see this type of legislation happen. Paintball becoming exempt is BS. I read a thread earlier of a CCW licencee talking about kids coming up to his car with paintball guns. The result is no different. If he didn't think twice, those irresponsible kids would have been shot.

This is all terrible, terrible news.

DannyInSoCal
08-29-2011, 4:58 PM
Pathetic.

You guys are actually THANKING this POS....?

What little interest/respect I had for the "sport" of paintball is gone....

Mesa Tactical
08-29-2011, 5:01 PM
It bothers me that the paintball camp would so quickly throw their support behind a bill just because they managed to lobby themselves out of harm's way.

You don't think that was part of the deal that got them removed from the bill?

jwkincal
08-29-2011, 5:03 PM
You don't think that was part of the deal that got them removed from the bill?

Ding! Winner!

RazzB7
08-29-2011, 5:05 PM
You don't think that was part of the deal that got them removed from the bill?

I do think that was part of it. I just think it's reprehensible that someone would so quickly throw a parallel sport under the bus.

For instance, if the bill were to eliminate every semi-automatic long gun in CA EXCEPT for those "plastic-cased ammo, firing multiple small projectiles per shell" The skeet and trap crowd wouldn't be saying "Hey, that's great! It doesn't include us. **** those other rifle guys." For solidarity's sake, they would oppose it right beside the rest of the long gun community.

SanPedroShooter
08-29-2011, 5:07 PM
I think that actually happened a couple years ago... We know better now. It seems that paintballers dont understand politics, or maybe they understand to well....

bwiese
08-29-2011, 5:08 PM
Our old lobbyist 'friend', Kathy Lynch, appears to be in play again...

Here's her lobbyist page from CA Secretary of State's office: http://cal-access.ss.ca.gov/Lobbying/Lobbyists/Detail.aspx?id=1148067&session=2011

Here's her client list for the year, again from CA Sec. State's office lobbying database: http://cal-access.ss.ca.gov/Lobbying/Lobbyists/Detail.aspx?id=1148067&session=2011


Note at the top of the list "Airsoft Safety Foundation" as contributor. http://www.airsoftsafetyfoundation.org/

What's interesting is that Crosman Corp. and Gamo Outdoor are listed as clients along with Marksman products, Beeman Airguns, and Umarex USA.
These are all new entries with $0.00 dollar amounts and these clients do not appear in previous filings.

Either these guys have substantial paintball assets needing protecting, or they think she's actually protecting BB/pellet guns too (but not).

Let's monitor this and see how badly BB/airgun/pellet guns get screwed over for paintball.... we'll see.. looks like 798 is in flux, need a day or two to get current reading

Who knows, maybe she'll luck out and get a Roster of Approved BB guns?


BTW: The reason gunnies are sensitive to BB/pellet gun regs is that they are useful introductions to the world of shooting
sports and formal gun safety training to new generations of shooters - vitally important for our political/rights cause. These
guns are not toys, as opposed to paintball/Airsoft, etc. - objects which almost INVITE unsafe gun handling training and
pointing live 'guns' at people...

InGrAM
08-29-2011, 5:09 PM
Wow, if you ever saw a sell out this would be it. F&@K YOU paintball guys! See what happens a few years down the road ;)

Mesa Tactical
08-29-2011, 5:13 PM
I do think that was part of it. I just think it's reprehensible that someone would so quickly throw a parallel sport under the bus.

We've seen it before. The SASS folks were pretty happy with the handgun roster once their cowboy toys were exempted.

"The art of using troops is this: When ten to the enemy's one, surround him; when five times his strength, attack him; if double his strength, divide him."

-- Sun Tzu

BigDogatPlay
08-29-2011, 5:19 PM
We've seen it before. The SASS folks were pretty happy with the handgun roster once their cowboy toys were exempted.

^^^ This ^^^

One of the reasons why I have never chosen to get involved in SASS or the cowboy action game, no matter how much fun it might be. Gun owners in general were sold down the river when they pulled a Zumbo.

V
08-29-2011, 5:22 PM
For instance, if the bill were to eliminate every semi-automatic long gun in CA EXCEPT for those "plastic-cased ammo, firing multiple small projectiles per shell" The skeet and trap crowd wouldn't be saying "Hey, that's great! It doesn't include us. **** those other rifle guys." For solidarity's sake, they would oppose it right beside the rest of the long gun community.

History doesn't support your faith in your fellow gunnies. My experience of the ban ratchet in the UK, the history of the aussie ban, and my experience of club politics in trying to set up Appleseed shoots here in the US suggests that "Hey thats great" is exactly the response they would give.

CalBear
08-29-2011, 5:22 PM
Too many gun owners / enthusiasts are willing to sell others out as long as they get to reach into the cookie jar. The same thing happened in the UK when handguns were being banned. The people who preferred shotguns and long guns would hardly ever go to bat for the pistols folks, so the bans just kept on creeping until the outright ban on pistols finally came. We've seen it before, we'll see it again. Gun enthusiasts have historically sold other enthusiasts out when they get to keep their goodies. I find that self defense oriented 2A activists tend to be far less likely to sell out, because they care more about others via their views on self defense and freedom. I always view gun owners heavily on the sporting side (and not the defense side) a bit more skeptically -- not because they don't care about guns, but I perceive them as being less likely to support other gun owners, as long as they get to continue hunting / target shooting with their bolt actions.

bwiese
08-29-2011, 5:24 PM
^^^ This ^^^

One of the reasons why I have never chosen to get involved in SASS or the cowboy action game, no matter how much fun it might be. Gun owners in general were sold down the river when they pulled a Zumbo.


Yes, in general.

The reality is that SASS management was just too friggin' stoopid to see the problem. They were a buncha good ol' boys that thought they could go play at the Big Table and get a lobbyist themselves - and they used an NRA traitor (Richard Feldman?) - unsure if they knew who he really was.

They then rejected NRA appeals that the split was harmful in opposition to SB15 and ended up with their precious sixguns protected.

Mesa Tactical
08-29-2011, 5:26 PM
"Excuse me, maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I see no place for [AR-15s] among our hunting fraternity. As hunters, we don't need to be lumped into the group of people who terrorize the world with them. . . . I'll go so far as to call them 'terrorist' rifles."

- Jim Zumbo, 16 February 2007

dantodd
08-29-2011, 5:27 PM
Our old lobbyist 'friend', Kathy Lynch, appears to be in play again...

BTW: The reason gunnies are sensitive to BB/pellet gun regs is that they are useful introductions to the world of shooting
sports and formal gun safety training to new generations of shooters - vitally important for our political/rights cause. These
guns are not toys, as opposed to paintball/Airsoft, etc. - objects which almost INVITE unsafe gun handling training and
pointing live 'guns' at people...

Ever notice her last name is a very appropriate verb?

Can we get BB/pellet guns protected as an aspect of training like ranges.

Quser.619
08-29-2011, 5:35 PM
Dude, they're asking people to Thank De Leon, that alone, regardless of reason, shows that they no longer get my support or are to be taken seriously. Play with toys, get treated like children.

bwiese
08-29-2011, 5:39 PM
"Excuse me, maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I see no place for [AR-15s] among our hunting fraternity. As hunters, we don't need to be lumped into the group of people who terrorize the world with them. . . . I'll go so far as to call them 'terrorist' rifles."

- Jim Zumbo, 16 February 2007


Yeah, Jim Zumbo was pretty stupid. He got making a sports-preference statement and was unaware of its political overtones going sideways.

I have to give him credit, though, he "learned" (albeit painful to him) and has somewhat if not more repaired damage.

He's actually been exposed to them now - courtesy Motor City Madman Ted Nugent, amongst others - and has now written extensively on their value and utility (he never knew an AR could be so accurate, for example).

He's actually gotten quite a few hunters to understand Black Rifles now and that is something many of us might find hard to do.

I'd be willing to hang up the term "Zumbo" for this since he seems to have worked hard enough and long enough to more than repair damage.

And I'm not the forgiving type on gunrights....

Merc1138
08-29-2011, 5:42 PM
I like playing paintball, I can't stand paintball players.

As a whole, they're a group of some of the dumbest and most spoiled brats I've ever seen. They treat airsoft vs. paintball like 12 year olds bash xbox 360 vs. playstation 3. The older ones with money have a habit of becoming gear snobs who either buy the latest $1400 markers and talk crap about anyone using something more than a couple years old, or they're some sort of purists that refuse to use any markers made after 2000 and laugh at people using cheaper gear while they pay a premium for hard to find replacement parts. Then you've got the "community leaders", one sells a forum he runs and another runs one of those pay per bid auction sites and bashes the other for "selling out all of you paintballers". Kids who whine about how paint costs $60 for a case of 2,000 when 20 years ago it was more like $30 for a bag of 100. An industry that still isn't sure if they want to market themselves as tacticool with ghillie suits, or strippers in body paint.

The only reason I play paintball anymore with my aging but not old enough to be "ancient"(since these kids can't remember beyond 7-8 years ago) gear is to when I see the players I can't stand, I get to light them up. Otherwise it's the once in a blue moon when a bunch of my friends actually feel like getting together to play(really is a rarity since they have even less patience for the paintball brats than I do).

If anyone thought for a moment that the paintball community and industry gave 2 ****s about gun rights, airsoft, pellet guns, etc. then it means you're ignorant to the level of bratty nonsense that permeates paintball. The only reason why they cared was because they were afraid their toys might be taken away.

dantodd
08-29-2011, 5:47 PM
In a similar vein, I was surprised to see one of my high school classmates doing NSSF ads extolling the values of EBRs.

dantodd
08-29-2011, 5:49 PM
An industry that still isn't sure if they want to market themselves as tacticool with ghillie suits, or strippers in body paint.


Easy choice.

Python2
08-29-2011, 5:50 PM
Our old lobbyist 'friend', Kathy Lynch, appears to be in play again...

Here's her lobbyist page from CA Secretary of State's office: http://cal-access.ss.ca.gov/Lobbying/Lobbyists/Detail.aspx?id=1148067&session=2011

Here's her client list for the year, again from CA Sec. State's office lobbying database: http://cal-access.ss.ca.gov/Lobbying/Lobbyists/Detail.aspx?id=1148067&session=2011


Note at the top of the list "Airsoft Safety Foundation" as contributor. http://www.airsoftsafetyfoundation.org/


What's interesting is that Crosman Corp. and Gamo Outdoor are listed as clients along with Marksman products, Beeman Airguns, and Umarex USA.
These are all new entries with $0.00 dollar amounts and these clients do not appear in previous filings.

Either these guys have substantial paintball assets needing protecting, or they think she's actually protecting BB/pellet guns too (but not).

Let's monitor this and see how badly BB/airgun/pellet guns get screwed over for paintball.... we'll see.. looks like 798 is in flux, need a day or two to get current reading

Who knows, maybe she'll luck out and get a Roster of Approved BB guns?


BTW: The reason gunnies are sensitive to BB/pellet gun regs is that they are useful introductions to the world of shooting
sports and formal gun safety training to new generations of shooters - vitally important for our political/rights cause. These
guns are not toys, as opposed to paintball/Airsoft, etc. - objects which almost INVITE unsafe gun handling training and
pointing live 'guns' at people...

Dang! these people must have been talking to Philippine legislators. Airsoft and airguns are considered firearms in the Philippines and has a one time registration, and if you want to take em outside your residence you must have a "permit to transport".

MajorMalphunction
08-29-2011, 6:34 PM
guns are not toys, as opposed to paintball/Airsoft, etc.

That's the mentality when they are given to children. They should not be called or treated as "toys." There is a reason why they are found in the "sports" section of the stores. Not "toys" and are supposed to be at least 18 to purchase them. They are sold as sports equipment. I'm sorry but that mentality is one of the reasons why we are in this mess.

p_shooter
08-29-2011, 6:35 PM
The paint ball community would prefer to call them Markers not guns. They don't want to be involved with the negative connotations of guns.

The sport has fractured into woodsball/scenario games with realistic looking guns and gear. And Sppedball which is all about bright flashy gear, Space alien ray gun looking markers, and shooting as many balls as quickly as possible while hiding behind inflatable barriers. Lame!

My friends and I enjoy going out into the forest and playing different scenarios with paintball. Defend-attack, prisoner extraction, last man standing...its good clean fun. Then we shoot real guns afterwards...not at each other.

MajorMalphunction
08-29-2011, 6:49 PM
The paint ball community would prefer to call them Markers not guns. They don't want to be involved with the negative connotations of guns.

The sport has fractured into woodsball/scenario games with realistic looking guns and gear. And Sppedball which is all about bright flashy gear, Space alien ray gun looking markers, and shooting as many balls as quickly as possible while hiding behind inflatable barriers. Lame!

My friends and I enjoy going out into the forest and playing different scenarios with paintball. Defend-attack, prisoner extraction, last man standing...its good clean fun. Then we shoot real guns afterwards...not at each other.

Similar tales can be said about airsoft.

steelrain82
08-29-2011, 7:00 PM
I love how they don't resemble real guns. I guess the pb arena didn't mention milsim.

With guns like the Tiberius. Tippman pistols, us army/Tippman ar style markers, oh and my favorite the bob long mtac
http://www.ansgear.com/Bob_Long_M_Tac_Paintball_Gun_p/boblongm-tac.html

CalBear
08-29-2011, 7:27 PM
I like playing paintball, I can't stand paintball players.

As a whole, they're a group of some of the dumbest and most spoiled brats I've ever seen. They treat airsoft vs. paintball like 12 year olds bash xbox 360 vs. playstation 3. The older ones with money have a habit of becoming gear snobs who either buy the latest $1400 markers and talk crap about anyone using something more than a couple years old, or they're some sort of purists that refuse to use any markers made after 2000 and laugh at people using cheaper gear while they pay a premium for hard to find replacement parts. Then you've got the "community leaders", one sells a forum he runs and another runs one of those pay per bid auction sites and bashes the other for "selling out all of you paintballers". Kids who whine about how paint costs $60 for a case of 2,000 when 20 years ago it was more like $30 for a bag of 100. An industry that still isn't sure if they want to market themselves as tacticool with ghillie suits, or strippers in body paint.

The only reason I play paintball anymore with my aging but not old enough to be "ancient"(since these kids can't remember beyond 7-8 years ago) gear is to when I see the players I can't stand, I get to light them up. Otherwise it's the once in a blue moon when a bunch of my friends actually feel like getting together to play(really is a rarity since they have even less patience for the paintball brats than I do).

If anyone thought for a moment that the paintball community and industry gave 2 ****s about gun rights, airsoft, pellet guns, etc. then it means you're ignorant to the level of bratty nonsense that permeates paintball. The only reason why they cared was because they were afraid their toys might be taken away.
I've sort of gathered this in my very limited exposure to paintball. I would not expect the paintball or airsoft communities to go to bat for us. They know they're far lower on the list of targets of CA morality police. It's hard enough to get all of the hunters and sports enthusiast firearm owners to support us. I wouldn't count on paintball folks being especially dedicated to gun rights.

Merc1138
08-29-2011, 7:35 PM
I've sort of gathered this in my very limited exposure to paintball. I would not expect the paintball or airsoft communities to go to bat for us. They know they're far lower on the list of targets of CA morality police. It's hard enough to get all of the hunters and sports enthusiast firearm owners to support us. I wouldn't count on paintball folks being especially dedicated to gun rights.

Even ignoring the 2a aspect of the matter, the general brattyness(there are words I'd prefer to use, but they'd get me banned) of the world of paintball would take something like this just for the sake of dumping on airsoft players while not caring or even acknowledging the 2a aspects. While there are a lot of paintball players who are also gun owners, they're still few and far between overall.

From what I've seen out of the airsoft crowd(and I'm not talking about the kids that buy the $40 airsoft guns at walmart), a lot more of them have an interest in firearms either currently owning or planning to own them later on. But just the same, I wouldn't expect the airsoft community as a whole to become a massive supporter of 2a.

steelrain82
08-29-2011, 11:38 PM
I like playing paintball, I can't stand paintball players.

As a whole, they're a group of some of the dumbest and most spoiled brats I've ever seen. They treat airsoft vs. paintball like 12 year olds bash xbox 360 vs. playstation 3. The older ones with money have a habit of becoming gear snobs who either buy the latest $1400 markers and talk crap about anyone using something more than a couple years old, or they're some sort of purists that refuse to use any markers made after 2000 and laugh at people using cheaper gear while they pay a premium for hard to find replacement parts. Then you've got the "community leaders", one sells a forum he runs and another runs one of those pay per bid auction sites and bashes the other for "selling out all of you paintballers". Kids who whine about how paint costs $60 for a case of 2,000 when 20 years ago it was more like $30 for a bag of 100. An industry that still isn't sure if they want to market themselves atacticool with ghillie suits, or strippers in body paint.
.

oh you must be talking about pbnat. and techpball. obviously i somewhat altered the names.

Merc1138
08-29-2011, 11:55 PM
oh you must be talking about pbnat. and techpball. obviously i somewhat altered the names.

Yeah, those were the two obvious ones. Although the various other websites(IOG, AOG, MCB, etc.) are all just as guilty of gear snobbery and tantrums worse than what you find sometimes on arfcom and m4c(among others). But since this isn't a thread about paintball I'll leave my detailed opinions about pbn and tpb out of it.

Anchors
08-29-2011, 11:58 PM
Weird since some people are in both industries and hobbies....you'd think the gun owners in the paintball industry would care more about the movement than their paintball guns being painted yellow. But I guess not.

CalBear
08-30-2011, 12:09 AM
Even ignoring the 2a aspect of the matter, the general brattyness(there are words I'd prefer to use, but they'd get me banned) of the world of paintball would take something like this just for the sake of dumping on airsoft players while not caring or even acknowledging the 2a aspects. While there are a lot of paintball players who are also gun owners, they're still few and far between overall.

From what I've seen out of the airsoft crowd(and I'm not talking about the kids that buy the $40 airsoft guns at walmart), a lot more of them have an interest in firearms either currently owning or planning to own them later on. But just the same, I wouldn't expect the airsoft community as a whole to become a massive supporter of 2a.
If it's anything like the brattyness of the 360 teen gamer crowd, I can understand. It's more about pwning and dumping on others than advancing a community or helping RKBA. Airsoft is at least more connected. Many people like airsoft guns because they resemble full firearms. Paintball seems to have shifted to alien bazookas that spray 5000 GPM than mimicking any of the visual aspects of real firearms.

If nothing else, I've noticed that most people I talk to who are into paintball, or who have played it in the past have no experience with firearms. As long as they can drown their n00b friends in paint and leave welts, and then get back home to play some Halo ASAP (all on their parents dime, might I add), they're satisfied.

jdberger
08-30-2011, 12:26 AM
Didn't CGF get a certain leader in the paintball community out of a bad arrest at the LA Airport? Apparently he was stopped at a checkpoint and asked if he had guns in the car and he answered affirmatively. He had LOTS of guns.

Wherryj
08-30-2011, 9:43 AM
You don't think that was part of the deal that got them removed from the bill?

Yes, but I can only imagine the words that DeLeon would get if he offered the CGF a deal that "let them off the hook" while destroying someone else's fundamental rights.

I can fully understand why the airsoft community feels like the paintball community has stabbed them in the back. That and how can they be so dim as to not realize that next year's bill will get around to "closing the paintball loophole"?

YubaRiver
08-30-2011, 10:05 AM
Some of the folks with the Peregrine Fund, the ones pushing the lead ban
for centerfire and rimfire ammo for condors protection, were upland game hunters.

It wasn't lead shotgun ammo that was initially banned.

CHS
08-30-2011, 12:15 PM
Appears the paintball industry is befriending Kevin deLeon "somehow".



The paintball industry has distanced itself from "icky guns" for a very long time now.

I'm old enough that I can actually remember when they were called "paintball guns". These days you get tsk'ed at and reminded that they are "markers".

I've been convinced that the paintball industry is not pro-gun in the least for a very long time now and will do whatever they can to get exempted from any and all laws regarding guns, air guns, toy guns, practice guns, etc.

curtisfong
08-30-2011, 12:17 PM
I'm old enough that I can actually remember when they were called "paintball guns". These days you get tsk'ed at and reminded that they are "markers".


Ditto. I always go out of my way to make fun of them when they do that.

dantodd
08-30-2011, 12:17 PM
It will be funny once the paintball guys figure out that their refusal to be associated with "arms" will cost them any kind of constitutional protection in the long run.

CHS
08-30-2011, 12:35 PM
It will be funny once the paintball guys figure out that their refusal to be associated with "arms" will cost them any kind of constitutional protection in the long run.

Sad, funny, and true all at the same time :(

They have worked so hard and for so long to distance themselves from the "icky guns" that it will be extremely hard to get the constitutional protections they need when someone finally wants to ban them or otherwise control them in some fashion they don't like.

Merc1138
08-30-2011, 1:13 PM
It will be funny once the paintball guys figure out that their refusal to be associated with "arms" will cost them any kind of constitutional protection in the long run.

They won't figure it out. If they had any sense they'd look at the regulations on marker velocities, rate of fire, ramp/burst/auto modes, etc. in other countries(that also happen to have ridiculous gun control laws, germany/UK/Australia/etc.) and realize that being lumped in with guns(they are air guns afterall) would make sense. Instead they want to market it "for the children"(with strippers in body paint, I believe it was LL3 that was the recent event with the strippers, I don't think they were at LL4) because they want to convince every suburban soccer mom that their 10 year old should be playing.

"See, it's not a gun, it's nothing like a gun, it's safe for kids!"

socal2310
08-30-2011, 2:05 PM
Sad, funny, and true all at the same time :(

They have worked so hard and for so long to distance themselves from the "icky guns" that it will be extremely hard to get the constitutional protections they need when someone finally wants to ban them or otherwise control them in some fashion they don't like.

Not only that, but while I will oppose further regulation of the industry on general principle. See if their industry litigation groups get any direct monetary support from me when they need it.

Ryan

G60
08-30-2011, 2:31 PM
they want to convince every suburban soccer mom that their 10 year old should be playing.

The last time I played paintball (8-9 years ago), it was apparent a lot of money was being pumped into the industry by soccer moms. Go to any match or tournament, and guess who was watching their kids play.

It really doesn't surprise me at all the industry would do something like this. Although I didn't think paintball was as big any more as it was a few years ago, didn't think they had that kind of clout.

Sgt Raven
08-30-2011, 5:56 PM
Yeah, "gee thanks kevin for writing us out, **** those other guys! Have a nice day."

Signed, Paintballer(?)

Go back a few years and you could say the same about SASS and 'cowboy guns'. :eek: :rolleyes:

Sgt Raven
08-30-2011, 5:59 PM
I do think that was part of it. I just think it's reprehensible that someone would so quickly throw a parallel sport under the bus.

For instance, if the bill were to eliminate every semi-automatic long gun in CA EXCEPT for those "plastic-cased ammo, firing multiple small projectiles per shell" The skeet and trap crowd wouldn't be saying "Hey, that's great! It doesn't include us. **** those other rifle guys." For solidarity's sake, they would oppose it right beside the rest of the long gun community.

Bull, they'd through EBR's under the bus just like SASS did.

BigDogatPlay
08-30-2011, 6:08 PM
[minor threadjack]


I'd be willing to hang up the term "Zumbo" for this since he seems to have worked hard enough and long enough to more than repair damage.

And I'm not the forgiving type on gunrights....

Neither am I... and yes, Jim Zumbo has rehabilitated his reputation to some degree by actually listening to reason. His stoooopid pronouncement cost him a lot of money and prestige, and I think he honestly sees the stupidity. So I'm willing to forgive and forget, which of course puts me in quest of a new adjective for peeing your firearm owning friends down the river.

How about "pulling a SASS"?

:chris:

[/threadjack]

LiquidFlorian
08-30-2011, 9:43 PM
Our old lobbyist 'friend', Kathy Lynch, appears to be in play again...

Here's her lobbyist page from CA Secretary of State's office: http://cal-access.ss.ca.gov/Lobbying/Lobbyists/Detail.aspx?id=1148067&session=2011

Here's her client list for the year, again from CA Sec. State's office lobbying database: http://cal-access.ss.ca.gov/Lobbying/Lobbyists/Detail.aspx?id=1148067&session=2011


Note at the top of the list "Airsoft Safety Foundation" as contributor. http://www.airsoftsafetyfoundation.org/

What's interesting is that Crosman Corp. and Gamo Outdoor are listed as clients along with Marksman products, Beeman Airguns, and Umarex USA.
These are all new entries with $0.00 dollar amounts and these clients do not appear in previous filings.

Either these guys have substantial paintball assets needing protecting, or they think she's actually protecting BB/pellet guns too (but not).

Let's monitor this and see how badly BB/airgun/pellet guns get screwed over for paintball.... we'll see.. looks like 798 is in flux, need a day or two to get current reading

Who knows, maybe she'll luck out and get a Roster of Approved BB guns?


BTW: The reason gunnies are sensitive to BB/pellet gun regs is that they are useful introductions to the world of shooting
sports and formal gun safety training to new generations of shooters - vitally important for our political/rights cause. These
guns are not toys, as opposed to paintball/Airsoft, etc. - objects which almost INVITE unsafe gun handling training and
pointing live 'guns' at people...

Bill, I don't know her history, but I am part of an airsoft gaming company who has owning partners working for Spartan Imports and has the ear the board of Airsoft Safety. If she sucks I would love to know so I can relay that message.

I can also say that in the serious airsoft community weapons safety is stressed and enforced.


I'm involved in airsoft AS A SPORT quite a bit (don't hate). I've been following SB 798 pretty closely. Paintball has gotten themselves excluded from this bill twice now. Both times they have immediately thrown their support behind it.

See: paintball support of SB 798 (http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3624947)



It bothers me that the paintball camp would so quickly throw their support behind a bill just because they managed to lobby themselves out of harm's way.

Obviously, I oppose SB798 for a lot of personal reasons. But even if I wasn't directly involved in airsoft as I am...I would still oppose this legislation. It's not a far reach from what he's trying to do here to make some more legislation further affecting 2A rights. At this point, I oppose any legislation DeLeon supports. I've found the man to have no agenda I want to support. Even fitted sheets.


Paintball has been loosing market share to Airsoft for years. Our group had a 375 player MOUT event at Fort Ord Saturday, our Stop SB798 event topped out at just over 400. Paintball can't compete, mostly for that '13 year olds and gear snobs' mentality that is rampant in paintball, noted earlier in the thread.

dantodd
08-30-2011, 9:49 PM
[minor threadjack]
So I'm willing to forgive and forget, which of course puts me in quest of a new adjective for peeing your firearm owning friends down the river.

[/threadjack]


How about Lynching? As in Kathy Lynch.

p_shooter
08-31-2011, 3:44 PM
They won't figure it out. If they had any sense they'd look at the regulations on marker velocities, rate of fire, ramp/burst/auto modes, etc. in other countries(that also happen to have ridiculous gun control laws, germany/UK/Australia/etc.) and realize that being lumped in with guns(they are air guns afterall) would make sense. Instead they want to market it "for the children"(with strippers in body paint, I believe it was LL3 that was the recent event with the strippers, I don't think they were at LL4) because they want to convince every suburban soccer mom that their 10 year old should be playing.

"See, it's not a gun, it's nothing like a gun, it's safe for kids!"
The Netherlands already has laws against full auto "markers". They're also not allowed to have any paintball guns that simulate real guns. I forget the exact working, but it can't have a rifle stock and requires bright colors.

So it seems that they think by pandering to the gun control crowd they'll be left out of the drama. They won't.

Anti-gunners see paintball as war games for war mongers and violent socio-pathic Rambo types, even speedball.

They'll get their comeuppance.

Divided we fall.

BigDogatPlay
08-31-2011, 8:45 PM
How about Lynching? As in Kathy Lynch.

Were that word not already in the Penal Code with a rather specific meaning I'd say it's a winner.

:D

Wherryj
09-01-2011, 9:21 AM
It will be funny once the paintball guys figure out that their refusal to be associated with "arms" will cost them any kind of constitutional protection in the long run.

It will be funnier still when the time comes that they need to court the assistance of all of the groups that they sold out in the past.

RazzB7
09-08-2011, 11:29 AM
I realize this is not all that related to "real steel", but it's a cause that's close to me. And it's a big FU to DeLeon.

Update from CA legislative site:

LAST HIST. ACT. DATE: 09/06/2011
LAST HIST. ACTION : Set, final hearing. Failed passage in committee.
Returned to Chief Clerk pursuant to Joint Rule 62(a).
COMM. LOCATION : ASM PUBLIC SAFETY
COMM. ACTION DATE : 09/06/2011
COMM. ACTION : Set, final hearing. Failed passage.

So, it appears that this particular bill is dead. I'm sure DeLeon will come up with something else as soon as he's finished with his fitted sheet battle.

LiquidFlorian
09-08-2011, 12:29 PM
....with his fitted sheet battle.

OMG thats him behind that?! :eek: That guy is a menace! :facepalm:

spddrcr
09-08-2011, 1:36 PM
I'm involved in airsoft AS A SPORT quite a bit (don't hate). I've been following SB 798 pretty closely. Paintball has gotten themselves excluded from this bill twice now. Both times they have immediately thrown their support behind it.

See: paintball support of SB 798 (http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3624947)



It bothers me that the paintball camp would so quickly throw their support behind a bill just because they managed to lobby themselves out of harm's way.

Obviously, I oppose SB798 for a lot of personal reasons. But even if I wasn't directly involved in airsoft as I am...I would still oppose this legislation. It's not a far reach from what he's trying to do here to make some more legislation further affecting 2A rights. At this point, I oppose any legislation DeLeon supports. I've found the man to have no agenda I want to support. Even fitted sheets.
how much money did you earn last year playing airsoft tournaments? there is your answer right there.
paintball has money and international leagues standing behind it.

LiquidFlorian
09-08-2011, 3:42 PM
how much money did you earn last year playing airsoft tournaments? there is your answer right there.
paintball has money and international leagues standing behind it.

Well, it goes further then just the pro circuits in paintball. Airsoft has a huge international base as well, with just as much corporate money behind it. Their are pro shooters in airsoft in Asia, but here that kind of this is reserved for real shooting sports.

Paintball has always sought to distance itself from shooting sports and real steel guns. Thats why they're called "markers". The big money maker for them is paint sales anyway, not league play. The whole point is they're probably not doing themselves any favors drawing Zumbo-esq lines in the sand with this kind of stance they're taking.

MasterYong
09-08-2011, 4:19 PM
Uh, this law died, right?

Title edit? Please?

RMP91
09-08-2011, 4:33 PM
****ing traitors!!!!!!!! :censored:

I will not grant them pity, nor mercy the next time an anti-paintball law comes up, lets see how they like getting thrown under the bus for a change! :44:

Dark Paladin
09-09-2011, 7:33 AM
Uh, this law died, right?

Title edit? Please?

Even if this bill died, it would serve us well to remember who our friends are and who would stab us in the back in a heartbeat.

Personally I'm for reaching out to the airsoft community for additional support for our 2A effots. But I'm biased because I'm an airsofter myself. :p

RazzB7
09-09-2011, 7:39 AM
Even if this bill died, it would serve us well to remember who our friends are and who would stab us in the back in a heartbeat.

Personally I'm for reaching out to the airsoft community for additional support for our 2A effots. But I'm biased because I'm an airsofter myself. :p

^^THIS!

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

CHS
09-09-2011, 8:53 AM
Even if this bill died, it would serve us well to remember who our friends are and who would stab us in the back in a heartbeat.

Personally I'm for reaching out to the airsoft community for additional support for our 2A effots. But I'm biased because I'm an airsofter myself. :p

It sounds like, generally, the airsoft community is already standing with us. At least, MANY MANY MANY people in airsoft are also "real steal" owners.

The airsoft community seems to "get it" already.

Wherryj
09-09-2011, 9:20 AM
It sounds like, generally, the airsoft community is already standing with us. At least, MANY MANY MANY people in airsoft are also "real steal" owners.

The airsoft community seems to "get it" already.

The corollary to this situation is that some of us "real steel" owners have now become Airsoft owners due to Mr. DeLeon's absurd law.

I purchased two handguns and two long arms for my sons. They aren't currently old enough to own them, but I am pretty sure that they'll appreciate being able to have a "pre-ban" when the time comes.

CHS
09-09-2011, 9:35 AM
The corollary to this situation is that some of us "real steel" owners have now become Airsoft owners due to Mr. DeLeon's absurd law.

I'm also one of those people, but not because of DeLeon's stupid bill. I picked up a quality 1911 for backyard/garage training at home. It works really well, actually.

spddrcr
09-09-2011, 10:03 AM
Well, it goes further then just the pro circuits in paintball. Airsoft has a huge international base as well, with just as much corporate money behind it. Their are pro shooters in airsoft in Asia, but here that kind of this is reserved for real shooting sports.

Paintball has always sought to distance itself from shooting sports and real steel guns. Thats why they're called "markers". The big money maker for them is paint sales anyway, not league play. The whole point is they're probably not doing themselves any favors drawing Zumbo-esq lines in the sand with this kind of stance they're taking.

don't get me wrong As i don't agree with what the paintball industry did, But being involved since 1986 up until a few years ago this isn't the first time the industry has done something like this. If you research the smart parts lawsuits you can see one company suing every other company that made paintball guns. paintballs own demise in popularity was it's own fault due to companies suing other companies and even teams suing other teams over naming rights. the industry is filled with people out to make a quick buck any way they can.