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pc_load_letter
08-28-2011, 3:30 PM
I've generally never had issues at this shop before. I know they cater to LEO's and that's fine but Patrick has always been generally friendly to me but today was something from left field.

I was there to perform a PPT of my Mossberg bullpup shotgun that I recently had for sale in the private arms section. I walk in, Patrick asks me what I have there and I say a Mossberg bullpup for a PPT.

He looks at it briefly through the green moisture bag that I have it in and states "we're not doing that PPT. There is a pawn shop down the street. They can do it there". I ask politely ask "Why, is there something wrong with it"...and he responds "We choose not to". I chukle and walk out.

Anyways, is this reportable to the DOJ or should I not even bother. Did he perhaps think the firearm was not CA legal?

Never the less, the buyer never even showed up so I guess it was just me wasting my time. Hopefully the next buyer and FFL will be easier to work with.

MP

Matt C
08-28-2011, 3:39 PM
12071(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements:
(5) The licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Section 12082.

12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in
accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d)
of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain
possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm
to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the
firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c)
of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to
the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm,
the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the
waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the
firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the
firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or
transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would
constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the
dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller
or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith
deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of
police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or
city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner
provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or
person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay
a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee
may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable
fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 12076, 12076.5, and
12088.9 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set
forth in Section 12805. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a
dealer from charging a smaller fee. The dealer may not charge any
additional fees.
(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this
section to do all of the following:
(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned
the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer,
and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the
requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and
12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.
(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of
paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a
personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or
other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold
or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is
returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or
transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have
sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a
record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry
provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.
(3) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer
shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the
firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the
person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other
information required by Section 12077.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does
not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required
to process private party transfers of handguns.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.


Per CA DOJ: Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request.

Based what you said I don't see how the dealer did not break the law.

Also:

837. A private person may arrest another:

1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.

Just for irony alone (shop name) I would have called the cops.

Mike's Custom
08-28-2011, 3:54 PM
If you have a valid FFL and COE you must do a transfers.

hawk1
08-28-2011, 4:14 PM
If your buyer is a Calguns member, be sure and leave him negative feedback for not showing up. Even if you have/had backup buyers, don't let him off the hook.
Guys like that need to be outed...

Chaos47
08-28-2011, 4:53 PM
If your buyer is a Calguns member, be sure and leave him negative feedback for not showing up. Even if you have/had backup buyers, don't let him off the hook.
Guys like that need to be outed...
+1 I'd also attempt to report the FFL to the DOJ

bballwizard05
08-28-2011, 5:00 PM
If your buyer is a Calguns member, be sure and leave him negative feedback for not showing up. Even if you have/had backup buyers, don't let him off the hook.
Guys like that need to be outed...

++++++1 do this!

NotEnufGarage
08-28-2011, 5:35 PM
+1 I'd also attempt to report the FFL to the DOJ

+1 on that

Tarn_Helm
08-28-2011, 5:37 PM
If your buyer is a Calguns member, be sure and leave him negative feedback for not showing up. Even if you have/had backup buyers, don't let him off the hook.
Guys like that need to be outed...

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p13/AimSmllMssSmll/BladerunnerCaptBryantwithtext.jpg

The website says, "****LAW ENFORCEMENT OWNED AND OPERATED****
****OPEN TO THE PUBLIC****" (http://www.capoliceequip.com/)

But what a tool that guy was!

I would never spend another cent in that place.

Sounds like "Patrick" has developed a serious case of "You're not a cop--you're little people! (http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/blade-runner_shooting.html)"
8-Xk8PCvJvc
:chris:
No more business with that jerk.

Matt C
08-28-2011, 5:38 PM
I don't know if I would be trying to get an FFL like that shut down by reporting him to the DOJ after an incident like that. I'd hate to give them any more help in shutting down as many FFLs as they can.

I know I said call the cops, but honestly to me that is a very different thing, and has more to do with the nature of that particular FFL (above the law attitude?). In any case I would first print out the PC above and show it them before I did anything, they might just not be aware. No excuse really, but better to educate them than have the DOJ shut down another FFL.

Oh, and yeah, out the flake.

Tripper
08-28-2011, 5:39 PM
but, but, but
i read in another thread where some FFL's were vehemently stating that they are NOT required to complete a PPT, and it is up to them, and they can refuse, give refund etc....

whats up, help me understand this here.

Librarian
08-28-2011, 6:00 PM
but, but, but
i read in another thread where some FFL's were vehemently stating that they are NOT required to complete a PPT, and it is up to them, and they can refuse, give refund etc....

whats up, help me understand this here.

PC 12071 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12071.html)(b) says (b) A [California FFL's ] license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements:
...
(5) The licensee shall agree to and shall act properly and promptly in processing firearms transactions pursuant to Section 12082. [12082 is the PPT section]
...
(11) The licensee shall post conspicuously within the licensed premises a detailed list of each of the following: (A) All charges required by governmental agencies for processing firearm transfers required by Sections 12076, 12082, and 12806. (B) All fees that the licensee charges pursuant to Sections 12082 and 12806. (12) The licensee shall not misstate the amount of fees charged by a governmental agency pursuant to Sections 12076, 12082, and 12806.
...
and 12082 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12082.html)(c) says (c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required to process private party transfers of handguns.

Maestro Pistolero
08-28-2011, 6:10 PM
I know Patrick pretty well, and there has to be more to the story. I can say with confidence it has nothing to do with not being LE. Patrick isn't LE and he is as pro 2A as anyone you will ever meet.

I would ask that we be fair, and withhold judgment until he has a chance to explain.

dantodd
08-28-2011, 6:10 PM
FFls generally dislike doing PPTs. I understand thisnas there is very little money in it for them. Some, good FFLs, take the opportunity to cultivate a new customer.

I think it might be fun to do ALL PPTs at FFLs who are reluctant to follow the law. If they get flooded for a few weeks they might wise up.

Matt C
08-28-2011, 6:38 PM
I would ask that we be fair, and withhold judgment until he has a chance to explain.

That seems like the best course. Since you know him maybe you can ask for his side of the story?

hill billy
08-28-2011, 6:49 PM
If you have a valid FFL and COE you must do a transfers.

Not correct. I have a valid FFL and COE and cannot do transfers.

Maestro Pistolero
08-28-2011, 6:50 PM
There is more. I'll let him tell it unless he asks me to.

hill billy
08-28-2011, 6:55 PM
BTW, it is always worth it to report it to the DOJ. The last time this got pulled on me, I called the DOJ in the store and the DOJ called them and the whole mess was resolved in a few minutes. They aren't going to get shut down, they are going to get a talking to.

pc_load_letter
08-28-2011, 7:00 PM
If Patrick has a comment on what went down today, by all means, I'd love to hear it.

But everything I posted was verbatim as to what he said and what I was there to simply do, a PPT.

Like I stated, he looked at the shotgun through the moisture bag so if he "thought" the mossberg bullpup was illegal, why didn't he just say so?? If it was because there wasn't a gun lock on it, why didn't he just say so?? If it was because he was busy, why didn't he just say so??


And a big thanks to everyone who has commented on the thread.

Mike

There is more. I'll let him tell it unless he asks me to.

Anchors
08-28-2011, 7:00 PM
Patiently waiting to hear this resolve.
Unfortunately, unless the transfer is illegal, the business own can't refuse service in this case without breaking the law.

The reason is if no FFLs did them, we could strike the whole law on 2A grounds because it would be a de facto fun ban.

Anchors
08-28-2011, 7:04 PM
Gun* (that pun wasn't intentional lol)

Matt C
08-28-2011, 7:05 PM
Gun* (that pun wasn't intentional lol)

Heh, I like it the first way better.

Munk
08-28-2011, 7:17 PM
As was pointed out before, it's a misdemeanor for him to refuse.

You could have politely pointed out that as an FFL he would be committing a misdemeanor by refusing to transfer a firearm. Since it is not a handgun (of which, refusal to transfer would require he cease business in handguns) he is mandated by the state to perform the PPT.

You have grounds to perform a citizen's arrest by calling the cops and reporting his misdemeanor because it happened in your presence and you were a witness; you're also the party that this misdemeanor directly affected.


I also always strikes me as stupid for a business to turn away a customer who sought them out. Companies pay tons of money on advertising that sometimes amounts to 10-20$ (or more if it's a low volume, high margin business) PER CUSTOMER to draw people in. Here, the customer is paying you 10$ for the privilege of being brought to the store. in exchange you're spending 5-10 minutes on some paperwork and conversation that can double as sales pitching. During the time it's being processed, you get to point out deals on ammo, accessories, other products, and firearms. AND YOU'RE BEING PAID TO DO IT BY THE CUSTOMER.

Rukus
08-28-2011, 7:20 PM
I was told there a few years back that AR pistols would result in a felony charge....Some time goes by and the last time I went in there they had a Spikes Tactical AR pistol for sale on the wall...

Never had a bad time with PPT's but the FUD I've heard at that place has prevented me from buying anything form there in awhile. The PPT's I've done there were almost exclusively with me as the seller.

Maestro Pistolero
08-28-2011, 7:24 PM
Hold on folks, it seems there may have been a little misunderstanding.
pc_load_letter I PM'd you.

Tripper
08-28-2011, 7:31 PM
heck of a misunderstanding,
I sure have said alot to myself right now, but i'll refrain from posting it

Ed_Hazard
08-28-2011, 7:47 PM
:popcorn:

Matt C
08-28-2011, 7:53 PM
:gene:

bcj128
08-28-2011, 7:57 PM
I was told there a few years back that AR pistols would result in a felony charge....Some time goes by and the last time I went in there they had a Spikes Tactical AR pistol for sale on the wall...

Never had a bad time with PPT's but the FUD I've heard at that place has prevented me from buying anything form there in awhile. The PPT's I've done there were almost exclusively with me as the seller.

First off, I've used them extensively, and they have always been good guys. I'm sure there has to be an explanation. Second, as to the above question, they changed hands in the last 1-2 years from a retired LEO.

Also good people in there. Don't be too hard on them for FUD, I've hears the same from people in HERE :rolleyes:... No one can keep Cali's gun laws straight, and I've heard all manner of FUD from police, gun stores, FFL's, and mall ninjas alike. Even Cal DOJ gave me bad info on LEO/RAW's a few years back...

If I remember correctly, those AR pistols were a felony a few years ago, before the bullet button or a RAW. Then again, I can't even keep the laws straight here.

Maestro Pistolero
08-28-2011, 8:04 PM
they changed hands in the last 1-2 years from a retired LEO. Right. The previous owner would not touch an OLL. CPE has expanded the range of inventory considerably.

dirtyJ
08-28-2011, 8:05 PM
Unless you request the PPT in writing, an FFL can refuse PPTs all day long. They can also refuse a PPT if they believe the item being transferred is in an illegal configuration. They don't have to give you a reason for it, but they would have to tell DOJ if they were called on it. I'm sure there was a legit or semi-legit reason for him to not accept the transfer.

Rukus
08-28-2011, 8:08 PM
^^^

I've used them extensively as well. One of the first times I used them was to transfer 2 stripped AR lowers...The comment from the guy handling the paperwork was something along the lines of "it was a bad decision because All AR's were going to be outlawed soon" and I would have been better off to keep them.

Around the same time I asked about single shot, roster exempt AR pistols and I was told by several workers that any AR pistol= Felony.

Now they sell them. I'm glad that not everyone has had the same experience as I have. Like I said, this was a few years back however in that time I have not noticed any change in employees at the shop.

Don't be too hard on them for FUD??? Thats pretty much their job...keeping up on whats legal and whatnot. I'm not FFL, Police, Gun store employee or Mall Ninja and I can find time to keep up on what's legal and what's not. If I was IN THE BUSINESS of selling legal firearms you can be sure I would have a grasp on it. They've lost my business to OC Armory on more than one occasion because THOSE GUYS KNOW THEIR STUFF. No hassles, no doubts.

JMHO. YMMV.

dantodd
08-28-2011, 8:11 PM
Unless you request the PPT in writing, an FFL can refuse PPTs all day long. .

Can you explain why you believe this to be the case? I am unaware of any staute or regulation that permits a FFL to deny PPT requests not in writing.

Matt C
08-28-2011, 8:11 PM
Unless you request the PPT in writing, an FFL can refuse PPTs all day long.

Ok, I'll bite, where do you see that in the relevant PC quoted above?

Tripper
08-28-2011, 8:16 PM
yah, where does it say that, i just read it again myself, and only see, "upon request", it doesnt say in writing anywhere thati see, is that in another subsection that references something??

CavTrooper
08-28-2011, 8:19 PM
Funny how when a situation like this occurs and gets posted on the net, its always a "misunderstanding". If you want to stay in business you better start "understanding" the lawpretty darn quick. This shop has been in business long enough to know right and wrong, I say report em and let the law sort it out.

Tripper
08-28-2011, 8:26 PM
hahaha
he said it, and i didnt have too
thats exactly what i was thinking earlier
didnt expect getting outed, now that its posted, its a misunderstanding.
holding judgement til the guy has a chance to explain, seems to me the OP explained it pretty well
i wanted to hear the 'other side of the story'
but the other side still hasnt said the OP mis-stated either side.
its just a misunderstanding

I walk in, Patrick asks me what I have there and I say a Mossberg bullpup for a PPT.
He looks at it briefly through the green moisture bag that I have it in and states "we're not doing that PPT. There is a pawn shop down the street. They can do it there".
I ask politely ask "Why, is there something wrong with it"
...and he responds "We choose not to".

is that not the way it went down, I think I understand that quite well.

loose_electron
08-28-2011, 8:29 PM
Let it go guy, you all sound like your getting upset over little or nothing. He can walk down the street to Royal Pawn (almost walking distance) and get the PPT done there.

Don't know the reason he refused to do it, but everybody here is complaining and telling everyone to report them to the DOJ.

Get real... Last I checked most people here want "big brother" off their backs, not micro-examining every breath the world takes.

It's not important, don't get your panties in a wad over it.

Tripper
08-28-2011, 8:31 PM
Matt, or anyone for that matter, I'm asking matt since he posted it

there is a references "sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm"

I'm particularly interested in the 'loadn' part
is there an entry somewhere, to acknowledge a loan, rather than a sale.
for if i wish to loan a firearm to my neighbor, and make sure nobody gets in trouble somehow.

I'm happy to take my answer offline

ke6guj
08-28-2011, 8:31 PM
Unless you request the PPT in writing, an FFL can refuse PPTs all day long. They can also refuse a PPT if they believe the item being transferred is in an illegal configuration. They don't have to give you a reason for it, but they would have to tell DOJ if they were called on it. I'm sure there was a legit or semi-legit reason for him to not accept the transfer.


Can you explain why you believe this to be the case? I am unaware of any staute or regulation that permits a FFL to deny PPT requests not in writing.

Ok, I'll bite, where do you see that in the relevant PC quoted above?

its in the CCRs,

ß 4033. Criteria for Processing Section 12082 Transactions.


(a) All dealers shall process a section 12082 transaction upon the request of the transferor. All such requests shall:

(1) Be in writing and contain all of the terms of the transaction, and


(2) Be signed by the transferor and the transferee.


(b) Except as otherwise provided in Penal Code section 12082, a dealer shall process a section 12082 transaction in the same manner as if it were a dealer retail sale.


Note: Authority cited: Section 12082, Penal Code. Reference: Section 12071, 12072, 12073, 12076 and 12077, Penal Code.


10% has a thread on the subject, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=117004

Ford8N
08-28-2011, 8:40 PM
If your buyer is a Calguns member, be sure and leave him negative feedback for not showing up. Even if you have/had backup buyers, don't let him off the hook.
Guys like that need to be outed...

This

....or it never happened.

g17owner
08-28-2011, 8:42 PM
No the FFL needs to be 'informed' by the DOJ. More for the fact that it keeps them from getting in trouble later on with something larger. Mistakes snowball. One here, another there and before you know it there on the news because the AFT had a 'misunderstanding' with them and temporarily seized all their inventory. You can't get rid if negative press like that easily even if nothing comes of it. We are in a hobby/business that needs to be on their toes because others want to destroy us and we can't afford not to mind our P's and Q's.

stix213
08-28-2011, 8:42 PM
Let it go guy, you all sound like your getting upset over little or nothing. He can walk down the street to Royal Pawn (almost walking distance) and get the PPT done there.

Don't know the reason he refused to do it, but everybody here is complaining and telling everyone to report them to the DOJ.

Get real... Last I checked most people here want "big brother" off their backs, not micro-examining every breath the world takes.

It's not important, don't get your panties in a wad over it.

The problem is this is both illegal and rather common, and since we're all required to use an FFL for a transfer, we're all completely sick of it. The buyer/seller are at the FFL to do the transfer because they are trying to follow the law, so its not too much to expect the FFL to do the same.

I've even had Big 5 refuse to do a transfer of an unconverted Saiga 308 because they couldn't get ahold of someone to check if they could transfer that firearm. I pointed out that they sell the IO Casar AK, so what's the deal? Dude just shrugged. Went to another place (Imbert & Smithers) and they said they couldn't do the transfer cause they needed a freaking class 3 license, freaking morons..... Ok, now off to yet another FFL to see if they are willing to follow the law.... Finally at the 3rd place they did the transfer, but while in their custody for the 10 days they damaged the wood stock. That's just one transfer, I'm really sick of it.

eaglemike
08-28-2011, 8:44 PM
The number of gun shops that do this is truly frustrating. Royal Pawn is among them. I wanted to transfer an assembled AR pattern lower (w/bullet button installed) that I had purchased from them (!) to another party. They refused the transfer. They lost my business.

Even if the request wasn't in writing, the OP's attempt was still refused. Good way to lose at least one customer, maybe a lot more....... not a good business model. Want a successful business? Welcome every customer, run it clean and efficiently, solve the customer's problem. Word of mouth is still the BEST advertising.

Whenever I do a PPT I make it a point to buy something, or I've also thrown a few K of once fired 5.56 to my local favorite for his positive attitude.

Matt C
08-28-2011, 8:51 PM
its in the CCRs,

10% has a thread on the subject, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=117004

Learn something new everyday. I'm going to start using that form for PPTs.

pc_load_letter
08-28-2011, 8:51 PM
Well, I really don't know what to say at this point. I explained everything as it went down and this is the shops point of view from someone who knows Patrick...

I spoke with Patrick. According to him, everything is exactly as you say, except he says you said you wouldn't open the sealed bag. He would need to inspect the firearm to determine that it was CA legal, and he would need to see the serial number.

He admits that he was a little slammed, and did say he wouldn't do the transfer (because of the sealed bag) but says that before you guys could discuss it further, you turned around and left.

This was my reply...

Thanks for reaching out to Patrick. Regarding the events of today...well, if you were there, you would have seen how clearly evident it was the Patrick did not want to deal with me. When P asked to see the shotgun, I did so without hesitation. He never asked if he or I could remove the shotgun from the moisture bag. (Which was taken from another rifle and in no way sealed)

After I handed the shotgun to P, he examined something on the shotgun and handed it back to me simply stating, like I said in the first post "we're not going to do this PPT".

NEVER did he ask me to remove the shotgun from the bag or ask if he could remove the shotgun from the bag. HE HAD IT IN HIS HANDS. At that time he could have done anything with it...perhaps place it on the counter and say "I'm busy right now can I look at in in a second".

And by his admission that he stated "Go to the pawn shop down the street" is clearly evident that he had no interest in my business (of which I was a frequent shopper since I work just up as SDSU).

I'm sure P is a good guy but in this case I walked out because after I asked him "Why?" his cold remark was "Because we choose not to". Not because he couldn't see in my bag.

Sorry for getting a little peeved and bent. I know he had some LEO's in there and probably wanted to close up shop for the day, but to say something like "I didn't open up the bag for him", when he was holding it in his hand to look at something on the shotgun, is comical at best.

I am a guy whose BIG on customer service. I believe that in this day and age, we as consumers owe it to ourselves to do what's best with our money and time. (That's why I love LWRCI rifles)

I'm not looking to report the shop to the DOJ or talk trash about them or P. I will simply shop elsewhere. It was an unfortunate series of events and I'm sure can be interpreted in any fashion what so ever.

I wish the shop best of luck and continued success in the future. I know, that with my father in law as a SDPD, he shops there regularly.

Thanks again for everyone whose commented on this thread and I think the best thing we can take from it going forward is the actual facts and laws about how a FFL can in fact deny a PPT transfer. Perhaps that is the discussion going forward.

Regards,
PCLL

dirtyJ
08-28-2011, 9:07 PM
its in the CCRs,




10% has a thread on the subject, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=117004

Couldn't find the thread when I was making the post, thanks for the assist.

Anchors
08-28-2011, 9:10 PM
So the code says in writing, it doesn't say you must use that form. I'll scribble the request on a napkin if I'm refused if it'll make everyone happy.

stix213
08-28-2011, 9:22 PM
Well, I really don't know what to say at this point. I explained everything as it went down and this is the shops point of view from someone who knows Patrick...



This was my reply...

Thanks for reaching out to Patrick. Regarding the events of today...well, if you were there, you would have seen how clearly evident it was the Patrick did not want to deal with me. When P asked to see the shotgun, I did so without hesitation. He never asked if he or I could remove the shotgun from the moisture bag. (Which was taken from another rifle and in no way sealed)

After I handed the shotgun to P, he examined something on the shotgun and handed it back to me simply stating, like I said in the first post "we're not going to do this PPT".

NEVER did he ask me to remove the shotgun from the bag or ask if he could remove the shotgun from the bag. HE HAD IT IN HIS HANDS. At that time he could have done anything with it...perhaps place it on the counter and say "I'm busy right now can I look at in in a second".

And by his admission that he stated "Go to the pawn shop down the street" is clearly evident that he had no interest in my business (of which I was a frequent shopper since I work just up as SDSU).

I'm sure P is a good guy but in this case I walked out because after I asked him "Why?" his cold remark was "Because we choose not to". Not because he couldn't see in my bag.

Sorry for getting a little peeved and bent. I know he had some LEO's in there and probably wanted to close up shop for the day, but to say something like "I didn't open up the bag for him", when he was holding it in his hand to look at something on the shotgun, is comical at best.

I am a guy whose BIG on customer service. I believe that in this day and age, we as consumers owe it to ourselves to do what's best with our money and time. (That's why I love LWRCI rifles)

I'm not looking to report the shop to the DOJ or talk trash about them or P. I will simply shop elsewhere. It was an unfortunate series of events and I'm sure can be interpreted in any fashion what so ever.

I wish the shop best of luck and continued success in the future. I know, that with my father in law as a SDPD, he shops there regularly.

Thanks again for everyone whose commented on this thread and I think the best thing we can take from it going forward is the actual facts and laws about how a FFL can in fact deny a PPT transfer. Perhaps that is the discussion going forward.

Regards,
PCLL

Sounds like the only misunderstanding was he didn't think you would post your complaint on the internet......

LouDog
08-28-2011, 9:33 PM
:popcorn:

jamesob
08-28-2011, 10:00 PM
IMHO I would let everyone you know personally not to shop there. I had the same experience with a big5 a few years ago with a rifle that I sold to a guy. The rifle was a sks c&r but the buyer wanted to do a transfer with them ( no big deal it was his money). The store manager said no that it was an assault weapon, we both laughed and did the transfer ourself in the parking lot. To this day I haven't stepped foot into a big5.

bcj128
08-28-2011, 10:27 PM
All I'll say is they have always been good to me. I'll continue to give them my business.

I can't even believe no one's mentioned the Turner's practice of letting all other customers shop, peruse, and etc. before letting me do my PPT. CPE has NEVER treated me that way.

Just my 2 cents...

dantodd
08-28-2011, 10:50 PM
its in the CCRs,




10% has a thread on the subject, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=117004

Thanks. News to me. Always room to learn.

Matt C
08-28-2011, 10:50 PM
I do think everyone is entitled to an off day once and awhile. Maybe go talk to the guy and give him a second chance. If he still has an attitude, you can boycott with a clean conscience.

aermotor
08-28-2011, 11:00 PM
You should make that douche who owns CPE read this thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=450737

10percent has it absolutely nailed. F that place. Tell everyone you know to go somewhere else.

BusBoy
08-28-2011, 11:35 PM
:lurk5:

Curtis
08-29-2011, 12:41 AM
I do think everyone is entitled to an off day once and awhile. Maybe go talk to the guy and give him a second chance. If he still has an attitude, you can boycott with a clean conscience.

I agree with Matt. I'm a big believer in second chances. When I'm given a second chance, I make damn sure I don't screw up with that client again.

Wherryj
08-29-2011, 9:13 AM
You should make that douche who owns CPE read this thread: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=450737

10percent has it absolutely nailed. F that place. Tell everyone you know to go somewhere else.

There are two places that I can never leave without having dropped at least a couple hundred bucks: Costco and a well-stocked gun store.

If the guy at CPE hates PPTs so much, perhaps he needs to arrange the "impulse buys" a bit closer to the counter...

Uxi
08-29-2011, 10:29 AM
Sounds like the only misunderstanding was he didn't think you would post your complaint on the internet......

Bingo.

Tempus
08-29-2011, 10:41 AM
Big 5 doesn't PPT rifles. I've asked a many of them and they sell .22 rifles but will not PPT anything.

SoCal Sharpshooter will not BBL EBRs. Fine with pistols (done one there) shotguns (2 there) and other non-EBR long guns.

Maestro Pistolero
08-29-2011, 10:48 AM
Big 5 doesn't PPT rifles. I've asked a many of them and they sell .22 rifles but will not PPT anything.It would be interesting to see what they would do with a request in writing. As I understand it, that would obligate them to do the PPT.

medson
08-29-2011, 10:55 AM
I had a similar experience on Friday. I went to two different firearms retailers to transfer a browning highpower and received to different reasons why they could not do it. One seemed legitimate (full safes and too many guns in the shop for insurance purposes), the other said they were too busy. I've been waiting forever to transfer the weapon from my brother who was passing through town for an hour. What a PITA! It will end up being another year before we can once again try.

Overbear
08-29-2011, 10:55 AM
I do think everyone is entitled to an off day once and awhile. Maybe go talk to the guy and give him a second chance. If he still has an attitude, you can boycott with a clean conscience.

Why? He broke the law, burry his *** with it!

FFL's need to learn what they are required by law to do, that includes PPT's even if it wastes their time. Thats the law, this patrick guy is a F'n dirt bag criminal for saying NO.

donw
08-29-2011, 10:57 AM
a person always has the choice to take his business elsewhere.

sfpcservice
08-29-2011, 10:57 AM
I agree with Matt. I'm a big believer in second chances. When I'm given a second chance, I make damn sure I don't screw up with that client again.

I'll never buy a gun from any guy named Patrick after reading this.

But seriously, second chances should go to people who fully admit they blew it. Sounds like this was a "saving face" apology. It seems that he rethought his position after his mistake was made public.

Overbear
08-29-2011, 11:00 AM
a person always has the choice to take his business elsewhere.

If we, as consumers are forced to stay within the (unresonable IMHO) laws, then the FFL must do so also.

RazzB7
08-29-2011, 11:03 AM
If we, as consumers are forced to stay within the (unresonable IMHO) laws, then the FFL must do so also.

I agree with this poster. Anytime an FFL refuses to do a PPT he has just violated someone's 2A rights, in my opinion. If someone is doing everything lawfully required of them to do a transfer, why shouldn't the FFL be held to the same standard? IMHO, they should be held to a HIGHER standard!

I work in a fairly heavily regulated industry here in CA. It is my responsibility to keep abreast of the pertinent laws in my industry or I am subject to fines or other legal actions.

Mike's Custom
08-29-2011, 11:21 AM
Not correct. I have a valid FFL and COE and cannot do transfers.

For the most part it is correct. You didn't state which FFL you have. A C&R does not allow for PPTs. Also, if a FFL only sells long guns then they do not have to do PPT transfers on handguns. IT would help if made it clear why you have a FFL and COE and can not do PPTs, that would help us FFLs that do sell firearms and none FFLs understand why some FFLs with COES don't do PPTs.

Maestro Pistolero
08-29-2011, 11:30 AM
Why? He broke the law, burry his *** with it!

FFL's need to learn what they are required by law to do, that includes PPT's even if it wastes their time. Thats the law, this patrick guy is a F'n dirt bag criminal for saying NO.
Great sig-name you have there.

SoCal Bob
08-29-2011, 11:35 AM
One step forward, two steps back. An FFL declining to do a PPT is not exactly an isolated incident. Perhaps a reporting form, along the lines of the one Oaklander made about the Forest Service, would produce better results than threatening to gather our pitchforks and march to the gun shop en masse with torches. These reports could go to CGF and a form letter could be generated that contains the pertinent sections and a reminder that failure to follow the guidelines could result in action against their FFL.

We might even start a shop review section, broken down by counties or areas, where people review their experiences, good and bad.

I swear that it has to bring tears to the eyes of Anti’s every time we turn on an FFL and swear to not patronize them again. With friends like us, who needs enemies?

hawk1
08-29-2011, 11:44 AM
...
I swear that it has to bring tears to the eyes of Antiís every time we turn on an FFL and swear to not patronize them again. With friends like us, who needs enemies?

They also cry with happiness each time FFL's turn on their customers, the law abiding citizens...;)

djleisure
08-29-2011, 11:56 AM
I'll never buy a gun from any guy named Patrick after reading this.

But seriously, second chances should go to people who fully admit they blew it. Sounds like this was a "saving face" apology. It seems that he rethought his position after his mistake was made public.
Maybe it's just me, but I didn't see any apology. I saw a lame excuse given through a third party. Was there an apology somewhere that I missed?

Uxi
08-29-2011, 11:56 AM
One step forward, two steps back. An FFL declining to do a PPT is not exactly an isolated incident. Perhaps a reporting form, along the lines of the one Oaklander made about the Forest Service, would produce better results than threatening to gather our pitchforks and march to the gun shop en masse with torches. These reports could go to CGF and a form letter could be generated that contains the pertinent sections and a reminder that failure to follow the guidelines could result in action against their FFL.


Great idea. I'm definitely discouraged and being forced to use FFL means the FFL must be obligated to perform their services. At the same time, I understand that it can be as confusing for them as us, but that doesn't excuse them and they MUST understand they don't have the discretion to refuse simply because they "choose not to."



We might even start a shop review section, broken down by counties or areas, where people review their experiences, good and bad.


Great idea. It could also help find local shops with the appropriate stuff. I am willing to pay a bit more to both support local business and get instant gratification but usually shop online because no one place has everything I want and having a shop do a special order is often the worst of both worlds: higher price and longer wait.

pc_load_letter
08-29-2011, 12:23 PM
To date, I have not been contacted by the shop in question. They could if they wanted to because a third party contacted them for their explanation.

Never the less, I really don't anticipate one. I do like the idea of a regional resource (perhaps here on CG.net) that rates\reviews the various shops\FFLs, gives prices etc etc.

Ultimately, like I said in my first post, I don't know why "P" just didn't ask me to wait a second or ask me to place the firearm on the counter? I think someone nailed it when they mentioned how it was a quick excuse once I posted the experience to the interwebs. Probably was doing damage control.

We're all human and perhaps he was having a rough day. The third party person told me he is quite overworked there being the go-to guy for all things there.

I think the best thing we can do as consumers is share our experiences as best we can. I have done that now and I know from other people sharing their experiences, I've had great experiences at places like Parallax Tactical and Fine Firearms in La Mesa.

I thank everyone who has commented on this thread and I think there are tons of good ideas that can come out of it. Hopefully the review\rating system can come to fruition.

PCLL

Maybe it's just me, but I didn't see any apology. I saw a lame excuse given through a third party. Was there an apology somewhere that I missed?

ZNinerFan
08-29-2011, 12:49 PM
I have come across my share of hostile gunshops. I always shrug my shoulders and go somewhere else.

One day they will go out of business and wonder why everyone is buying guns off the internet instead of them.

A Glock 19 is a Glock 19, it doesn't matter if you bought it from a local gunshop, budgunshop, davidsons gallery of guns, or any other spot. You will get the same thing. The only difference is that you pay for customer service. If you are not getting any customer service, why pay for it?

Customer service as far as gunshops go, is offering a full range of services you would reasonably expect, including ppt's.

I am about to cut another shop loose from my business because the last PPT I did there the guy had a real attitude problem. There is a gunshop literally down the street from my house that I won't set foot in because of stuff like this. I am the most easy going guy so it says a lot when someone like me won't have anything to do with you.

Overbear
08-29-2011, 12:58 PM
I have come across my share of hostile gunshops. I always shrug my shoulders and go somewhere else.

One day they will go out of business and wonder why everyone is buying guns off the internet instead of them.

A Glock 19 is a Glock 19, it doesn't matter if you bought it from a local gunshop, budgunshop, davidsons gallery of guns, or any other spot. You will get the same thing. The only difference is that you pay for customer service. If you are not getting any customer service, why pay for it?

Customer service as far as gunshops go, is offering a full range of services you would reasonably expect, including ppt's.

I am about to cut another shop loose from my business because the last PPT I did there the guy had a real attitude problem. There is a gunshop literally down the street from my house that I won't set foot in because of stuff like this. I am the most easy going guy so it says a lot when someone like me won't have anything to do with you.

Name them, so the rest of us can know who to avoid.

Mike27t
08-29-2011, 2:05 PM
Thanks for the post, ill be sure not to give them my business if im in the area

Tripper
08-29-2011, 2:27 PM
isnt the DROS itself, or the form fille dout 'while' processing a PPT, isnt that the 'in writing' part
the terms and conditions of the sale are irrelevant, as they are between the seller/buyer?

why does that sound like it aint right to require a separate form the lays out the conditions. seems redundant to me

Tier One Arms
08-29-2011, 2:30 PM
We might even start a shop review section, broken down by counties or areas, where people review their experiences, good and bad.

I swear that it has to bring tears to the eyes of Antiís every time we turn on an FFL and swear to not patronize them again. With friends like us, who needs enemies?


This is a great idea, lets start a review section.

Librarian
08-29-2011, 3:17 PM
I had a similar experience on Friday. I went to two different firearms retailers to transfer a browning highpower and received to different reasons why they could not do it. One seemed legitimate (full safes and too many guns in the shop for insurance purposes), the other said they were too busy. I've been waiting forever to transfer the weapon from my brother who was passing through town for an hour. What a PITA! It will end up being another year before we can once again try.

Well, it clearly won't help you today. but the DOJ put out a memo about PPT back in 2001

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf

Subject: REQUIREMENT FOR DEALERS TO CONDUCT PRIVATE PARTY TRANSFERS /
ALLOWABLE FEES

TO: ALL LICENSED FIREARMS DEALERS, CHIEFS OF POLICE, SHERIFFS OFFICES, DISTRICT ATTORNEYS

This Information Bulletin is intended to remind dealers of their obligations regarding private party transfers including the 10-day waiting period and the fees that firearms dealers are permitted by law to charge when conducting these transfers. Firearms dealers are required to conduct private party transfers pursuant to Penal Code section 12071(b)(5). Dealers may not limit the days or hours in which private party transfers are conducted.
...
For further information contact: Firearms Division (916) 227-3703

DannyInSoCal
08-29-2011, 3:34 PM
So - Is the BullPup still for sale....?

:43:

sfpcservice
08-29-2011, 3:39 PM
So does this mean wal-mart and big 5 are legally required to do transfers?

halifax
08-29-2011, 3:46 PM
So does this mean wal-mart and big 5 are legally required to do transfers?

Wal-Mart doesn't sell guns in CA.

Big 5 would be required to do PPTs on long guns only because they don't sell handguns

sfpcservice
08-29-2011, 3:51 PM
Isn't WalMart going to resume gun sales?

stix213
08-29-2011, 3:53 PM
Isn't WalMart going to resume gun sales?

Supposedly, according to another thread. Walking into Walmart with an AK to transfer, is going to be interesting to watch.

sfpcservice
08-29-2011, 3:57 PM
Yes it will be interesting!

Shoot-it
08-29-2011, 4:24 PM
Maybe next time Patrick wants to be lazy and not do his job as a ffl dealer he should first ask if they are a CGN member or even heard of this site or else we will know all about it.Mis understang my azz he got caught!

In my area I go to alguist arms in Turlock they have no problem with ppt you know what the owner told shhh being real quiet about this it's a secret he said he get's more return costumer's every time he treats people fairly in his store.

hill billy
08-29-2011, 4:26 PM
For the most part it is correct. You didn't state which FFL you have. A C&R does not allow for PPTs. Also, if a FFL only sells long guns then they do not have to do PPT transfers on handguns. IT would help if made it clear why you have a FFL and COE and can not do PPTs, that would help us FFLs that do sell firearms and none FFLs understand why some FFLs with COES don't do PPTs.

When you qualify it like you did above, it sounds better. I have an 07, but my city will not stamp my business license for the retail sale of firearms. By and large this works for me but I would change it ina hot minute if I could. So I am resigned to the CEFFL list.

Clownpuncher
08-29-2011, 4:34 PM
They must be having a bad week at that shop. I had a guy that works with me say he went in there this past weekend to take the test and get his safety card and they asked him if he was going to buy a gun today. When he said "I can, but I'm not sure what exactly I want" the guy told him he was running out of cards and wouldn't do his test for him unless he buys a gun.
Just another place to mark off my list of dealers i will deal with.

Shoot-it
08-29-2011, 4:36 PM
They must be having a bad week at that shop. I had a guy that works with me say he went in there this past weekend to take the test and get his safety card and they asked him if he was going to buy a gun today. When he said "I can, but I'm not sure what exactly I want" the guy told him he was running out of cards and wouldn't do his test for him unless he buys a gun.
Just another place to mark off my list of dealers i will deal with.

No way i don't believe it they are voted number One gun shop!

http://www.capoliceequip.com/

Maestro Pistolero
08-29-2011, 5:00 PM
I'm curious how many CPE bashers have actually done business with CPE?

I've got to say, my experience with CPE, especially Patrick, and the experience of my brother, and many of our friends and colleagues who do business with CPE has been the opposite of OP's unfortunate experience.

Just wondering how much of this is first-hand and how much is piling on.

MAC USMC
08-29-2011, 5:01 PM
WHOA THERE COWBOY!

So you had the shotgun in a "green moisture bag" right? And you did refuse to remove the gun from the bag -- CORRECT? Tell us why!

Any gun shop must INSPECT the weapon to make sure it is UNLOADED, has no illegal or unsafe MODIFICATIONS and then VERIFY the serial number has not been altered and is clearly visible. Many shops also do a FUNCTION TEST to make sure it is in reasonably good and in SAFE operating condition.

It is not possible to do all this with the shotgun still inside the "green moisture bag" now is that not correct?

How about you own up to the entire truth of the matter instead of attempting to smear a good man who is very well known and respected in the firearms industry?

I have known Patrick for many years as a staunch defender of the Second Amendment, as a respected and certified armorer, as an avid shooter, hunter and sportsman and as an honest man.

I do think he needs to defend himself against this allegation as it is BOGUS and FALSE.

g17owner
08-29-2011, 5:05 PM
read the thread. :rolleyes:
WHOA THERE COWBOY!

So you had the shotgun in a "green moisture bag" right? And you did refuse to remove the gun from the bag -- CORRECT? Tell us why!

Any gun shop must INSPECT the weapon to make sure it is UNLOADED, has no illegal or unsafe MODIFICATIONS and then VERIFY the serial number has not been altered and is clearly visible. Many shops also do a FUNCTION TEST to make sure it is in reasonably good and in SAFE operating condition.

It is not possible to do all this with the shotgun still inside the "green moisture bag" now is that not correct?

How about you own up to the entire truth of the matter instead of attempting to smear a good man who is very well known and respected in the firearms industry?

I have known Patrick for many years as a staunch defender of the Second Amendment, as a respected and certified armorer, as an avid shooter, hunter and sportsman and as an honest man.

I do think he needs to defend himself against this allegation as it is BOGUS and FALSE.

RazzB7
08-29-2011, 5:07 PM
+1 Read the thread

WHOA THERE COWBOY!

So you had the shotgun in a "green moisture bag" right? And you did refuse to remove the gun from the bag -- CORRECT? Tell us why!

Any gun shop must INSPECT the weapon to make sure it is UNLOADED, has no illegal or unsafe MODIFICATIONS and then VERIFY the serial number has not been altered and is clearly visible. Many shops also do a FUNCTION TEST to make sure it is in reasonably good and in SAFE operating condition.

It is not possible to do all this with the shotgun still inside the "green moisture bag" now is that not correct?

How about you own up to the entire truth of the matter instead of attempting to smear a good man who is very well known and respected in the firearms industry?

I have known Patrick for many years as a staunch defender of the Second Amendment, as a respected and certified armorer, as an avid shooter, hunter and sportsman and as an honest man.

I do think he needs to defend himself against this allegation as it is BOGUS and FALSE.

hawk1
08-29-2011, 5:13 PM
I'm curious how many CPE bashers have actually done business with CPE?

...

A better perspective would be to ask how many will no longer attempt to do business with California Police Equipment.

WHOA THERE COWBOY!

So you had the shotgun in a "green moisture bag" right? And you did refuse to remove the gun from the bag -- CORRECT? Tell us why!

Any gun shop must INSPECT the weapon to make sure it is UNLOADED, has no illegal or unsafe MODIFICATIONS and then VERIFY the serial number has not been altered and is clearly visible. Many shops also do a FUNCTION TEST to make sure it is in reasonably good and in SAFE operating condition.

It is not possible to do all this with the shotgun still inside the "green moisture bag" now is that not correct?

How about you own up to the entire truth of the matter instead of attempting to smear a good man who is very well known and respected in the firearms industry?

I have known Patrick for many years as a staunch defender of the Second Amendment, as a respected and certified armorer, as an avid shooter, hunter and sportsman and as an honest man.

I do think he needs to defend himself against this allegation as it is BOGUS and FALSE.

Mac, you're not helping your guy with this at all.

It has been explained by the OP, one side of this, just how it went down. Unless you were there and had a first hand view of what went down then you're better off to let Patrick answer to what transpired. Until then your 'suggestions' as to what happened looks foolish.

Maestro Pistolero
08-29-2011, 5:14 PM
I do think he needs to defend himself against this allegation as it is BOGUS and FALSE.I don't believe Patrick is a member here. I don't expect he will be replying. His time is spent managing a store, and selling, fixing, and yes, transferring guns. He doesn't whittle away time on the internet like me.

RazzB7
08-29-2011, 5:19 PM
Maestro. You seem to have some inside knowledge of the inner workings of California Police Equipment. You've presented a fair, objective view from what I've seen of your posts. Perhaps it would be worth his time to write YOU an email and you could post it here on his behalf.

As you can see by my profile, I'm a San Diego local. And from what I've heard today, I'll never set foot in his business. But, I'm open-minded enough to know that there are two sides to every story. I'd like to hear his.

Razz

Quser.619
08-29-2011, 5:29 PM
I live blocks away from CPE, am in there every once & a while. Never had an issue & most working there have been friendly to me, but I also remember hearing about issues w\ So Cal Gun, then experienced the "attitude" myself in person. Patrick's bad day may very well have resulted in loss of more than one customer. Especially since Parallax or DAS, while further away, offer unbelievable service w/ decent prices.

kauaibuilt
08-29-2011, 5:35 PM
I'm curious how many CPE bashers have actually done business with CPE?

I've got to say, my experience with CPE, especially Patrick, and the experience of my brother, and many of our friends and colleagues who do business with CPE has been the opposite of OP's unfortunate experience.

Just wondering how much of this is first-hand and how much is piling on.

I have and have only been back to window show to burn daylight while waiting for an appointment in North Park. My experience was nowhere near as bad as the OPs but still. There are much better shops in the area and Im more then willing to make the trek up to DAS (I live in Chula Vista) after the service I received there.

Matt C
08-29-2011, 5:40 PM
I don't believe Patrick is a member here. I don't expect he will be replying. His time is spent managing a store, and selling, fixing, and yes, transferring guns. He doesn't whittle away time on the internet like me.

Foolish. I run a business too. When someone complains online (on a forum much like this one) I respond, regardless of the merits of the complaint. The reason is our reputation is important to me, and I don't want it to appear that I don't care or have no response. That will cost me (and Patrick) customers. No way he is too busy, this forum is open 24/7.

boxbro
08-29-2011, 5:41 PM
Maestro. You seem to have some inside knowledge of the inner workings of California Police Equipment. You've presented a fair, objective view from what I've seen of your posts. Perhaps it would be worth his time to write YOU an email and you could post it here on his behalf.

As you can see by my profile, I'm a San Diego local. And from what I've heard today, I'll never set foot in his business. But, I'm open-minded enough to know that there are two sides to every story. I'd like to hear his.

Razz

The fact is, someone is lying and somehow I doubt it is the OP as there seems to be no motivation for it.
On the other side.....

boxbro
08-29-2011, 5:43 PM
Foolish. I run a business too. When someone complains online (on a forum much like this one) I respond, regardless of the merits of the complaint. The reason is our reputation is important to me, and I don't want it to appear that I don't care or have no response. That will cost me (and Patrick) customers. No way he is too busy, this forum is open 24/7.

Maybe he doesn't want to admit to a misdemeanor on a public forum or doesn't want to continue a lie burying himself deeper.
I dunno, just a thought.

ZNinerFan
08-29-2011, 5:44 PM
Name them, so the rest of us can know who to avoid.

The store down the street from my house that I won't set foot in is Schmidt & Titoni.

The other spot I will leave out for now. I had one ok PPT and a total attitude PPT there and I am willing to chalk up the bad PPT to end of the day fatigue for the staff and all that.

bcj128
08-29-2011, 5:46 PM
I'm curious how many CPE bashers have actually done business with CPE?

I've got to say, my experience with CPE, especially Patrick, and the experience of my brother, and many of our friends and colleagues who do business with CPE has been the opposite of OP's unfortunate experience.

Just wondering how much of this is first-hand and how much is piling on.

+1...

I can name several gun stores I have had bad experiences with. Turners, So Cal, and others. However, I still will give them a chance if they have a good deal. I just don't take it personally. Perhaps there may be legal (civil or criminal) reasons for Patrick to not want to air someone else's dirty laundry on the net.

Like I said, they've always been good to me.

Matt C
08-29-2011, 5:46 PM
Maybe he doesn't want to admit to a misdemeanor on a public forum or doesn't want to continue a lie burying himself deeper.
I dunno, just a thought.

Yeah, I don't accept liability either. Simple way to word things: I apologize sincerely for the misunderstanding, it won't happen again, and I would welcome the opportunity to earn your business back. No arguing, just "I'd like to try to fix this". 99% of the time I'm doing damage control for someone's mistake, and sometimes it really is just a misunderstanding.

If you don't have that basic business skill.....:facepalm:

If after that the guy just wants to have a fight, then you have done what you can, and his credibility is gone.

boxbro
08-29-2011, 5:51 PM
Yeah, I don't accept liability either. Simple way to word things: I apologize sincerely for the misunderstanding, it won't happen again, and I would welcome the opportunity to earn your business back. No arguing, just "I'd like to try to fix this". 99% of the time I'm doing damage control for someone's mistake, and sometimes it really is just a misunderstanding.

If you don't have that basic business skill.....:facepalm:

If after that the guy just wants to have a fight, then you have done what you can, and his credibility is gone.

:iagree:

fairfaxjim
08-29-2011, 5:54 PM
Generally, NOBODY likes having to deal with CA's PPT nonsense, sellers, buyers, or dealers. Having said that, it shouldn't be as big of a hassle as some people want to make it. I've never had a problem with PPT's, and I've done my share of them here in the SF Bay Area. As with just about anything else, a little preparation goes a long way in getting it done hassle free.

1. I always call the FFL, IN ADVANCE, to inquire when is the best time to do or not do a PPT.

2. I meet up with the seller/buyer OUTSIDE of the shop so a quick inspection of the firearm can be made and the price settled if there is any question or dealing left to be done.

3. We BOTH go in WITH PAPERWORK (DL, car reg, utility bill, I did make sure in #1 what THAT FFL is comfortable with.)

We are usually in and out and the FFL only has to do the DROS without any BS.

The OP said the buyer never even showed. I would never even approach the FFL for a PPT unless the buyer and me were ready to do it.

Rukus
08-29-2011, 6:09 PM
The OP said the buyer never even showed. I would never even approach the FFL for a PPT unless the buyer and me were ready to do it.

I don't know about you, but its been my experience that most FFL's don't allow you to peruse around the store with a firearm in hand, unless they have inspected it to make sure it is unloaded...that's probably when the OP made contact with the employee.

Rivers
08-29-2011, 6:11 PM
I'm going to admit bias right up front. I would have no problem whatsoever giving Patrick the keys to my house if I went away for a month, loaning him $1000 on a handshake, etc. He is one of the very few people I know who has integrity.

There IS more to the story than the minimized version in the OP. What was left out is more than enough reason for ANY FFL to justifiably back away from doing a PPT or any other transaction on a firearm. I did speak to Patrick this afternoon and feel comfortable standing behind my first paragraph.

We haven't heard from Patrick yet simply because he doesn't want to get into a pi$$ing match with anyone. He is a very professional gunsmith and will go a long way toward keeping the customer happy. However, when the customer repeatedly refuses to comply with what the FFL feels is legally required, he simply sent the customer away. No yelling, no temper tantrum, no bad attitude. If the OP wouldn't comply with the FFL's legitimate requests, don't expect ANY FFL to put his license on the line for a PPT or any other transaction. The OP was correct, albeit incomplete in the original post, neglecting to mention the OP's refusal to comply.

While I still hope that Patrick posts here himself, I didn't feel like waiting while he gets dog-piled on by people who should really know better. He is one of the truly good guys in the industry and I'm happy to personally call him a friend.

pc_load_letter
08-29-2011, 6:52 PM
@MAC USMC...I entered the store with the gun in a green moisture bag...yup, that's exactly right. I was not even three steps in the door when P asked me if he could help me and "what I had there...". I explained I was there for a PPT for this Mossberg bullpup. At that point, he asked to examine it and I freely handed it too him. If was then, after looking at it for about 30 seconds, he stated to me "We're not doing this PPT" followed by, "There's a pawn shop down the road" and he handed it back to me.

As I explained previously, and I will do again here quickly, P never asked for me if I could remove it from the bag OR if he could remove it from the bag. If he was busy, why not just ask me to place it safely on the counter to be inspected?? P never asked that of me. Even after I asked "Why" when he stated he wouldn't do the PPT, he did not repsond "because you won't remove it from the bag", but rather responded with "Because we choose not to".

As to owning up to the truth, we'll my dear fellow calguns member, P has admitted to everything that was said so I have no reason to lie or slander him.

I am glad that P is such a great 2a defender. That's surely good to know. But in this case, his attitude (perhaps showing off for the LEO's) was beyond rude and borderline against the law as best I can tell from other members here.

I have no problem people defending him, just know that I have no reason to come here and fabricate a lie about a shop that I had previously shopped at for months since first going there for the first time earlier this year. I was even saving up to buy the RIA 1911 he has in the counter.

I think I've really explained myself fairly well so while i have no problem answering additional questions if anyone needs more info than what I've already provided.

@Rukus \ Fairfaxjim,

You're both right and in hindsignt, I should have confirmed the buyer was there before walking in with the firearm. And P did an excellent job of addressing me as soon as I walked in...Less than five seconds probably.

So - Is the BullPup still for sale....?

:43:

Ha ha, sadly sold it today....

....Went to Gusslers for the ppt

PCLL

hawk1
08-29-2011, 7:19 PM
You still owe that no-show some feedback...:cool:

Fjold
08-29-2011, 7:31 PM
I'm going to admit bias right up front. I would have no problem whatsoever giving Patrick the keys to my house if I went away for a month, loaning him $1000 on a handshake, etc. He is one of the very few people I know who has integrity.

There IS more to the story than the minimized version in the OP. What was left out is more than enough reason for ANY FFL to justifiably back away from doing a PPT or any other transaction on a firearm. I did speak to Patrick this afternoon and feel comfortable standing behind my first paragraph.

We haven't heard from Patrick yet simply because he doesn't want to get into a pi$$ing match with anyone. He is a very professional gunsmith and will go a long way toward keeping the customer happy. However, when the customer repeatedly refuses to comply with what the FFL feels is legally required, he simply sent the customer away. No yelling, no temper tantrum, no bad attitude. If the OP wouldn't comply with the FFL's legitimate requests, don't expect ANY FFL to put his license on the line for a PPT or any other transaction. The OP was correct, albeit incomplete in the original post, neglecting to mention the OP's refusal to comply.

While I still hope that Patrick posts here himself, I didn't feel like waiting while he gets dog-piled on by people who should really know better. He is one of the truly good guys in the industry and I'm happy to personally call him a friend.

Since you are defending the shop owner and basically calling the OP a liar, shouldn't you be more forthcoming in telling how the "customer repeatedly refuses to comply with what the FFL feels is legally required?

Especially since the OP says no conversation about the legality of the firearm occured.

Librarian
08-29-2011, 7:43 PM
1) Gun has been sold

2) Shop person has not chosen to participate in the thread. (His right.)

3) 3rd parties are not adding much.

Not much left to say.

ETA: To amplify that a bit: If Patrick wants to respond, he can PM me and I'll reopen this thread, or he can start a new one. But until we get his input, all this thread can do is rehash and speculate. Since that was starting to get a bit grumpy, I think this thread can use a rest.