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View Full Version : Criminal is now a "victim" ?


bg
01-22-2007, 1:58 PM
Big time BS here. Punk breaks into HOer's shed,
gets his after he goes after HOer's with hammer,
now HOer's charged with murder. Punk got exactly
what is deserved, but the HOer gets MAJOR injustice
served up to him..>
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/local/Los_Angeles/CBS_2-KCAL_9/SIG=11t5fom2d/**http%3A%2F%2Fcbs2.com%2Flocal%2Flocal_story_0212 20707.html

(CBS) BELLFLOWER A man suspected of fatally shooting a boy, 15,
while the victim was breaking into a shed behind the man's Bellflower
home was arrested on suspicion of murder, sheriff's deputies said.
It figures the Da would pull some crap like this. Criminals get
more breaks than law abiding citizens anymore..Flat out BS !

spitkiss
01-22-2007, 2:08 PM
"He said that in fear of his life, he opened fire with a pellet gun, Moore said."

A pellet gun? WOW

AW-FANATIC
01-22-2007, 2:12 PM
Must have been one hell of a pellet gun to kill the kid unless he shot him in the eye or something. My pellet gun would leave a really nice bruise at best. Hard to tell exactly what the real story is from the article. The one thing I do agree with is that it is a sad state of affairs that the criminals have more rights than law abiding citizens these days.

AJAX22
01-22-2007, 2:13 PM
And thats why you use a shotgun for home defense.... only ONE story to tell the cops when they come to clean up the mess.

"I was afraid for my life, he attacked me"

I saw the family of the critters on the news last night, they place all the blame on the homeowner for shooting their precious little angels, didn't even admit that the kids shouldn't be breaking into a house surounded with razor wire and bars.

We need a castle doctrine law here in CA

anonymous
01-22-2007, 2:15 PM
Unless this guy has a medical marijuana license, I seriously doubt any jury is going to buy the notion that he needed deadly force to defend his crop of weeds.

In addition, this isn't really new. For a while now, home owners have lived with the famous case of the burglar suing the home owner when he was attacked by the HO's guard dog after breaking into his house.

Basically the fact of the matter is that the only time you can use deadly force in self defense in this state seems to be if you are confronted with deadly force. On the other hand, its hard to argue that a pellet gun isn't a fair defense for a hammer.

thedrickel
01-22-2007, 2:22 PM
If the guy doesn't have a doctor's recommendation to use/grow weed, I bet he wouldn't have called to report a burglary of his plants. This is my favorite part:

Duane Berry of Paramount, believed to be the victim's brother and accomplice, was also arrested on suspicion of murder because a death occurred during the commission of a felony crime, Moore said.

Scotty
01-22-2007, 2:23 PM
Depends on the pellet gun. 1000 fps pellet guns are pretty deadly.

naimad
01-22-2007, 2:38 PM
Depends on the pellet gun. 1000 fps pellet guns are pretty deadly.


I can see the headlines in the newspaper now pellet guns are deadly we must have a 10 day waiting period for these deadly weapons

Aluisious
01-22-2007, 2:53 PM
Depends on the pellet gun. 1000 fps pellet guns are pretty deadly.
Don't...give...them...ideas!

Rumpled
01-22-2007, 3:07 PM
While in CA we don't have castle doctrine as legilated law, don't we have it as precedent?
Is it not an assumption of the law, that someone breaking into your house (night maybe?) puts it into a higher category?
I believe that "in fear of my life" is the key phrase.

The SoCal Gunner
01-22-2007, 3:52 PM
I would think that the multiple assailants would have given the homeowner cause to fear for his life though the criminals sister said the brother killed was shot in the back.

A neighbor said good things about the homeowner and did say he had cancer.

M. Sage
01-22-2007, 6:32 PM
While in CA we don't have castle doctrine as legilated law, don't we have it as precedent?
Is it not an assumption of the law, that someone breaking into your house (night maybe?) puts it into a higher category?
I believe that "in fear of my life" is the key phrase.

We have no obligation to retreat, and have an automatically assumed fear for life if someone has broken into your home. Your yard is a bit different, though.

No obligation to retreat is everywhere, though. Not just in your house/on your property. Also, it's not just your house, but your residence, temporaries included - campsites, etc.

the_natterjack
01-22-2007, 6:58 PM
Isn't it a rule of thumb . . . that if you defend yourself with a firearm you should expect to be arrested and booked?

Then the police collect evidence, give that evidence to the DA who then makes a choice, hopefully based on evidence and not politics, to free you or take the case to trial.

Remember the Cardinal Rules:

(1) Identify yourself
(2) "I WAS IN FEAR OF MY LIVE!"
(3) "I am too shaken up to make a statement right now. I will make a statement for you but not right now"
(4) SAY NOTHING ELSE UNTIL YOU TALK WITH A LAWYER

Given all that. I'm not going to shoot anybody over just property. I don't care if I catch you breaking into my shed. I have insurance to cover theft and nothing I own is worth a fight to the death over.

Now threaten my life or my family? Well, I guess your mother is going to get a courtesy call from the police.

The_Natterjack

bbq_ribs
01-23-2007, 11:00 AM
"About 150 protesters spilled out into the street at a noontime demonstration organized by Oakland-based Americans for Safe Access outside the downtown Roybal Federal Building. Protesters chanted "Safe Access Now!" as passing motorists honked their horns in apparent support, and the group later walked to Los Angeles City Hall"

So they immediately rallied around the guy to support his MARIJUANA but seem to not care at all about the fact that he is being charged with felony homicide for defending his own bloody property. That's what bugs me about potheads. As long as they get their weed, they don't seem to care at all about the Constitution. I want my Second Amendment rights covered before I'm going to give a hoot about marijuana.

We NEED a Castle Doctrine law here. hopefully we'll have one soon.. as soon as the people can show that states with such laws either have a decrease in crime or no noticible increase in crime.

biff
01-23-2007, 11:51 AM
"About 150 protesters spilled out into the street at a noontime demonstration organized by Oakland-based Americans for Safe Access outside the downtown Roybal Federal Building. Protesters chanted "Safe Access Now!" as passing motorists honked their horns in apparent support, and the group later walked to Los Angeles City Hall"

So they immediately rallied around the guy to support his MARIJUANA but seem to not care at all about the fact that he is being charged with felony homicide for defending his own bloody property. That's what bugs me about potheads. As long as they get their weed, they don't seem to care at all about the Constitution. I want my Second Amendment rights covered before I'm going to give a hoot about marijuana.

We NEED a Castle Doctrine law here. hopefully we'll have one soon.. as soon as the people can show that states with such laws either have a decrease in crime or no noticible increase in crime.

Yeah I though that was kind of weird how a story on someones death turned into support for medical marijuana. Do I smell an agenda or am I being paranoid?

anonymous
01-23-2007, 12:19 PM
"That's what bugs me about potheads. As long as they get their weed, they don't seem to care at all about the Constitution.

This is true for any drug addict. All they care about are their drugs. Just ask Rush Limbaugh.

chiefcrash
01-23-2007, 12:21 PM
i think this is funnier than hell:
One protester, a Los Angeles-area resident named Michelle who declined to give her last name, said she is a medical marijuana patient.

"The California voters voted almost 10 years ago now ... and yet the federal government still is not following what the California voters wanted," she said.

um........................

chiefcrash
01-23-2007, 12:23 PM
as for the murder charge:
His mother, Yolanda Rice, said she saw entry wounds in her son's right shoulder and his lower back.

if there's an ENTRY wound on the guy's back, then yer screwed. It looks like you shot him while he was running away....

sinner
01-23-2007, 1:24 PM
For the life of me, I just cannot imagine a pellet fired from a pellet gun being able to penetrate enough to cause a fatal injury. Something about this whole thing sounds fishy.

NextTimeAround
01-23-2007, 1:30 PM
I can't beleive what I'm hearing.

SunriseF150
01-23-2007, 2:05 PM
He should have had a shotgun with the first loads and sandbags or rubber balls, then moving up to birdshot/buckshot/slugs/ect. If they don't stop with the sandbags and rubber balls, then comes the next rounds. If they were trying to break into his shed then I don't feel bad for them at all. And if it was a pellet gun then it's not like he was intentionall trying to kill them.

Aluisious
01-23-2007, 2:10 PM
First...the man should get an award for making such a great shot with a pellet rifle.

Second...shooting someone breaking into an unoccupied shed is murder.

Third...shooting someone in the back who is running away is murder.

Aluisious
01-23-2007, 2:10 PM
He should have had a shotgun with the first loads and sandbags or rubber balls, then moving up to birdshot/buckshot/slugs/ect. If they don't stop with the sandbags and rubber balls, then comes the next rounds. If they were trying to break into his shed then I don't feel bad for them at all. And if it was a pellet gun then it's not like he was intentionall trying to kill them.
If someone is worth shooting, they're worth shooting properly. Buckshot to start.

slick_711
01-23-2007, 2:29 PM
For the life of me, I just cannot imagine a pellet fired from a pellet gun being able to penetrate enough to cause a fatal injury. Something about this whole thing sounds fishy.

Some of the more expensive "quality" pellet/target rifles on the market break 1300fps... yes they're small projectiles, but that is nonetheless 350fps *faster* than our beloved .45ACP. What about that makes you think the pellet would fail to penetrate? It's smaller size and increased velocity would logically make it more likely to penetrate, but perhaps less likely to hit vital organs and cause lethal damage.


As to CA's self defense laws and precedents... while part of me wants to see the logic, they are weak. The bottom line is, you cannot shoot to defend property. Inside your own home it could go either way, but even then its advisable to have a well thought out plan in the event of an intruder. And in your front yard or other public areas, you had best be in fear of your life or someone else's life if you shoot somebody.

Shooting to protect your @$*@#^* marijuana, your shed, your car, or the cash in your register at work, are unacceptable reasons (according to CA law, not me). The requirement for a *reasonable person* in the same situation to have a *reasonable fear* for their own or someone else's life is the only thing that will save you from murder/manslaughter charges.

Note however, that this is situational... if an 18year old crack addict breaks into my house and threatens me with a rusty boy scout knife and I shoot him from 15 yards down the hallway, I would face much different possible prosecution than if the same boy had broken into the home of a 73year old widow 'little old lady' who was most likely i a deeper fear for her life than I would be.

Don't get me wrong, if somebody breaks into your home and you feel threatened you're better off shooting them and sorting it out later, particularly if you feel you would be easily overpowered without your firearm or you have children in the home.

All the same, I keep zip-ties near my 870, I train with it regularly, and I'd like to think I'm fairly alert/competent/capable without it; so in my personal situation if someone broke into my house I'd size them up, then decide if I needed to shoot them, or if I could talk them down, and then buttstroke them and detain them while I dialed 911. I know a lot of hard core 'kill any intruder' type guys that laugh at my zip-tie plan, but I live in a college area, and if someone were to break in it would most likely be a drunk frat boy thats either lost or looking for quick cash. The last thing I want to do is kill someone like that. Evaluate your home & its surroundings, keep in mind who/what you have at home, and formulate a plan for yourself.

If you shoot somebody because you were in code white and either failed to have a plan, or because you live in code red and reacted incorrectly too quickly, either way you will be facing legal charges. But perhaps those charges are something you can mentally dismiss knowing your family is safe. Have a plan specific to your personal situation, if you have family, make sure they know the plan. It's something that doesn't take much work to formulate and share with them, and although I hope you never need it, it's well worth having. Even if it's something as simple as my roommate always reminding me to shout 'hit the deck' before I pump 00B down the hallway toward his room.

:rolleyes:

gn3hz3ku1*
01-23-2007, 4:20 PM
that mom should have taught her sons not be to stealing from people.. a loss of a life is never a good thing but he does hold some blame

Ubergeek
01-23-2007, 4:29 PM
He should have had a shotgun with the first loads and sandbags or rubber balls, then moving up to birdshot/buckshot/slugs/ect. If they don't stop with the sandbags and rubber balls, then comes the next rounds. If they were trying to break into his shed then I don't feel bad for them at all. And if it was a pellet gun then it's not like he was intentionall trying to kill them.

If the punk loses an eye or suffers some sort of long-term/permanent disability from use of a less-than-lethal payload, the shooter can probably look forward to a nice lawsuit that'll ruin him fianancially.

The only times you should ever use a firearm for 'non-sporting' purposes is when your life (or the lives of others) is in danger - and you should be shooting with the express purpose of killing the attacker.

rips31
01-23-2007, 4:49 PM
If the punk loses an eye or suffers some sort of long-term/permanent disability from use of a less-than-lethal payload, the shooter can probably look forward to a nice lawsuit that'll ruin him fianancially.

The only times you should ever use a firearm for 'non-sporting' purposes is when your life (or the lives of others) is in danger - and you should be shooting with the express purpose of killing the attacker.
don't forget, it's "neutralizing/stopping the threat," not killing anyone. :rolleyes:

paradox
01-23-2007, 6:01 PM
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/los_angeles_metro/la-me-pot23jan23,1,3480618.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true
Pot theft claimed in boy's shooting death
A Bellflower man who allegedly killed a 15-year-old said the youth was trying to steal medicinal marijuana plants.
By Tami Abdollah and Richard Winton, Times Staff Writers
January 23, 2007

A Bellflower man who said he was growing marijuana to ease pain from liver cancer is in custody on suspicion of fatally shooting a 15-year-old boy who allegedly was trying to steal some of the plants with his older brother.

Prosecutors will have to decide whether Jerry Cress acted in self-defense and was in reasonable fear for his life when he shot Jacob Walker with a small-caliber handgun shortly before daybreak Sunday, said Los Angeles County Sheriff's Homicide Capt. Ray Peavy. That decision could come as early as today.

Jacob's friends and relatives said he was off Cress' property and fleeing down the street when the 57-year-old allegedly fired the fatal rounds and that the shooting wasn't a case of self-defense but vigilantism.

"He was running away and the guy shot him in the back. He was already off the property," said Teresta Walker, 18, his sister. "I believe it was in the middle of the street. He was already off the property, leaving it, so the guy had no reason to shoot him at all."

Peavy lent some support to that account, saying, "They were attempting to run away when they were being fired at."

A neighbor found what appeared to be marijuana leaves on her driveway Monday morning and said police told her not to touch anything.

Outside Cress' home, classmates of Jacob decorated a memorial with messages, a dozen candles and white and red rose bouquets. More than 75 people gathered there Monday night to remember Jacob's life.

In an unusual twist, the dead boy's brother, Duane Berry, 24, could be charged with murder because the shooting occurred during the alleged commission of a felony.

Detectives said Jacob and his brother were attempting a burglary. Berry had recently been released from jail on a narcotics sales charge that is to go to trial next month.

"The kids in neighborhood had learned the guy had pot plants on his property, and some had broken in before," Peavy said. "These two knew there was a pretty large quantity."

Peavy said that around 6:30 a.m. Sunday, the brothers tried to break into a shed on Cress' property where the marijuana was being grown under ultraviolet lamps. "The homeowner heard his dog start barking and came out and confronted these two guys. He fired two or three rounds," Peavy said.

Detectives said Cress called the police to report the attempted burglary and acknowledged firing a few rounds on his property on Park Street, just north of the 91 Freeway. He said one of the males was armed with a hammer.

Accompanied by Berry, Jacob turned up a short time later at Lakewood Regional Medical Center, where he died of his wounds.

"At first we thought this was a pellet-gun shooting, but it turned out to be a small-caliber handgun," Peavy said. "As is sometimes the case, the small round bounced around inside him, hitting his vital organs."

Peavy said Cress told detectives he had liver cancer and "it appears he has been self-medicating for a period of time."

In this diverse working-class neighborhood in Bellflower, near the border with Paramount, news of the shooting came as a shock. But the existence of the marijuana crop was well-known to many teenagers. Some who spoke to The Times said many people had attempted to raid the crop before.

By about 3 p.m. Monday, nearly a dozen youths on foot or bicycles had arrived from nearby schools to look at the memorial in front of Cress' house.

"It's OK, Clifford, I cried too," said Ivan Perez, 13, an eighth-grader at Paramount's Mokler School, as Clifford Miller, 16, who said he was Jacob's best friend, choked up.

Clifford, 16, a Paramount High School student who lives in a nearby trailer park, said he last saw Jacob on Saturday night when he biked over to talk for a while.

"I have third period with him," Clifford said, before tearing up and falling silent.

Teresta Walker said Jacob was not violent. "He liked animals, loved watching the Discovery Channel," she said. "My brother would not come in with a hammer."

The brothers' mother, Yolanda Rice, 42, said she last saw Jacob alive just a few hours before the shooting as he slept in his bed. Rice, a trainee vocational nurse, said her son was shot in the back and arm.

"Things are different from when I grew up," she said. "I don't know what the shooter was thinking.

"Whatever happened to 'Get off my yard or I'll call the police'? What happened to that?"

tami.abdollah@latimes.com

richard.winton@latimes.com

Ubergeek
01-23-2007, 6:07 PM
don't forget, it's "neutralizing/stopping the threat," not killing anyone. :rolleyes:

Thank you. Maybe 'disempowering' sounds better than 'neutralizing'.

bg
01-23-2007, 6:22 PM
"Things are different from when I grew up," she said. "I don't know what the shooter was thinking.
The punk was trying to STEAL from a guy that claims
to have liver cancer. Now this punk is the victim ?
My 6 !

taloft
01-23-2007, 7:08 PM
Homeowner Jerry Cress, 57, told deputies he confronted two suspects, one of whom had a hammer, Deputy Anthony Moore said.

He said that in fear of his life, he opened fire with a pellet gun, Moore said.

According to the shooter, he was in fear for his life and defending himself from a trespasser armed with a hammer. This occurred while confronting someone allegedly engaged in a criminal activity. If he was out to hurt people I think he would have shot both of them. Now, having an entry wound in the back isn't good. You're not allowed to shoot once the threat is over. A retreating person isn't usually considered a threat unless they are looking for cover to fire from. Sounds like a bummer all the way around.

jfcosgrove3
01-24-2007, 4:59 PM
The DA must have political ambitions

Aluisious
01-24-2007, 5:08 PM
The brothers' mother, Yolanda Rice, 42, said she last saw Jacob alive just a few hours before the shooting as he slept in his bed. Rice, a trainee vocational nurse, said her son was shot in the back and arm.

"Things are different from when I grew up," she said. "I don't know what the shooter was thinking.

"Whatever happened to 'Get off my yard or I'll call the police'? What happened to that?"
Whatever happened to raising your kids not to commit burglery?

That woman makes me so mad.

NRAhighpowershooter
01-24-2007, 5:12 PM
The DA must have political ambitions

A buddy of Nifong perhaps???

oaklander
01-24-2007, 5:22 PM
This is a tragic story all around.

The kid should not have been trying to get in the shed. But he also didn't deserve to get killed for it.

paradox
01-25-2007, 9:00 AM
http://www.latimes.com/features/health/medicine/la-me-pot24jan24,1,5432886.story?coll=la-health-medicine
Man not charged in teen's slaying
Authorities need more time to probe the boy's shooting by a Bellflower man, who said the victim was trying to steal his medical marijuana.
By Richard Winton, Times Staff Writer
January 24, 2007

Prosecutors have so far declined to file charges against a Bellflower man arrested on suspicion of murder in the weekend shooting death of a 15-year-old boy allegedly trying to steal marijuana plants grown for medicinal purposes.

Officials said more investigation is needed into the fatal shooting of Jacob Walker. Detectives arrested Jerry Cress, 57, in connection with the shooting outside his Park Street home before daybreak Sunday. Cress has told police that he grows marijuana to ease liver cancer pain and that the teenager and an adult accomplice were trying to steal the plants.

The Los Angeles County district attorney's office has yet to charge the alleged accomplice, Duane Berry, 24, Jacob's brother. Berry was arrested because the shooting occurred during the alleged commission of a felony burglary. He is unlikely to be released from custody, authorities said, because he faces a pending trial on unrelated drug charges.

"There will be no charges at this point, but it doesn't mean the case is closed," said Jane Robison, a spokeswoman for the district attorney's office. "We are referring the matter back for further investigation. We are also hoping witnesses come forward."

Sources familiar with the investigation said that other people might have been at the scene at the time of the shooting.

Jacob's autopsy was still pending, Robison said.

To file charges against Cress, prosecutors would need to show that he wasn't acting in self-defense and wasn't in reasonable fear for his life when he allegedly shot the teenager.

Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department homicide detectives said people in the neighborhood had tried to break into Cress' backyard shed before.

According to Sheriff's Capt. Ray Peavy, the brothers were trying to break into the shed about 6:30 a.m. Sunday when Cress came out, confronted the intruders and fired a gun. Accompanied by Berry, Jacob turned up a short time later at Lakewood Regional Medical Center in Lakewood, where he died.

richard.winton@latimes.com

The SoCal Gunner
01-25-2007, 9:37 AM
According to the shooter, he was in fear for his life and defending himself from a trespasser armed with a hammer. This occurred while confronting someone allegedly engaged in a criminal activity. If he was out to hurt people I think he would have shot both of them. Now, having an entry wound in the back isn't good. You're not allowed to shoot once the threat is over. A retreating person isn't usually considered a threat unless they are looking for cover to fire from. Sounds like a bummer all the way around.

Does anyone know if this occurred in daylight? If it was dark then the homeowner has something to work off of, or he could have been aiming for the guy with the hammer, missed and hit the brother who was running away.