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Kavey
08-24-2011, 3:06 PM
Do some police departments have a quota for hiring the stupid. I've read this article several times now and still can't believe it.

According to the article, this so-called officer has made this mistake in the past! Maybe her superiors are to blame? You know, the stupid hiring the stupid.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/08/23/39204.htm

ElvenSoul
08-24-2011, 3:08 PM
You don't TRUST Nannie?

paul0660
08-24-2011, 3:11 PM
She doesn't sound like much of a cop.

But, that is one reason I avoid the back of cop cars and never would try to kick the window out............cops are just like us.

BTW the thread title makes no sense.

TreadonmenoT
08-24-2011, 3:16 PM
its ok your not as good as this person over here, we HAVE to hire a woman

HBrebel
08-24-2011, 3:19 PM
many cops are not competent in the use of firearms. You have your typical tactical tough guy cop(this is the guy who will kill you if he has a chance) and you have the good cop that doesn't really get his/her range time in regularly. Both are bad. I do not support the idea of a(standing army) large police force, except in areas high in gang and drug activity. I live in a pretty small town called Huntington Beach (heard of it?) We have a large police force and sheriff dept. I have lived here for many years and very rarely run into a good cop who does his/her job and considers him/herself a public servant. Most of them are has been jocks, ex military or ex nerds out for revenge. I just live under the assumption that every cop I run into would beat or kill me if given the right chance. Back when I was more of a hell raiser, We got caught vandalizing an abandoned building. I was nabbed after a couple hours of hiding. I was threatened, physically assaulted and made fun of for not informing on my "accomplices". My friends and I were constantly harassed and abused by the cops for things like loitering and drinking beer. I know there are some good cops out there but they are few.

Ledbetter
08-24-2011, 3:28 PM
Thugs keep cops in business. It's a symbiotic relationship and part of the reason why some police agencies don't want honest citizens to have the right to protect themselves by carrying.

stix213
08-24-2011, 3:29 PM
If police departments switched to using tasers similar to the Taser C2, then these kinds of "mistakes" would no longer occur.

diginit
08-24-2011, 4:07 PM
If police departments switched to using tasers similar to the Taser C2, then these kinds of "mistakes" would no longer occur.

Wrong... The Taser would be used it as a torture device whenever the cop got ticked off. "Absolute power corrupts" comes to mind... Say something the officer doesn't like, TASED! At least with the use of a gun, There would be an investigation and media coverage.

Kavey
08-24-2011, 4:16 PM
It's just this particular mistake. She did it in the past. She had been practicing not to do it. Yet in a "routine" law enforcement situation, despite all the practice, she did it again and now someone is dead.

I do have one technical suggestion: The Teaser should not be made to look like or operate like a handgun. Nor should it be "holstered" on the leg just below a holstered handgun. This unfortunate officer clearly shows why.

Maybe the Taser should be bright orange and shaped like a football.

donw
08-24-2011, 7:46 PM
another question that must be addressed is: how often is it really necessary for cops to use deadly force?

i suspect it is used much more than it should be...

what it's come down to is: the cops will use ANY force necessary to impose their will (the law) on you...

AJAX22
08-24-2011, 7:53 PM
You know... If you screwed a small ceramic piece onto your shoes, it would punch right through tempered glass.... totaly random thought of the evening...

jwkincal
08-24-2011, 8:05 PM
You know... If you screwed a small ceramic piece onto your shoes, it would punch right through tempered glass.... totaly random thought of the evening...

...and you could break into spontaneous tap-dance routines at completely inappropriate moments!

SwissFluCase
08-24-2011, 8:12 PM
I'm starting to think it is time for a state law mandating that the less-lethal weapon be carried on the weak side.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

dantodd
08-24-2011, 8:16 PM
I'm starting to think it is time for a state law mandating that the less-lethal weapon be carried on the weak side.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

How about one that says they can't be used for compliance?

jwkincal
08-24-2011, 8:21 PM
How about one that says they can't be used for compliance?

+1; it is only "less" lethal, after all.

Suvhater
08-24-2011, 8:29 PM
There should be a law that forbids LEO's from infringing on others' civil rights, then this sort of tragedy wouldn't happen.

RRichie09
08-24-2011, 9:05 PM
its ok your not as good as this person over here, we HAVE to hire a woman

EXACTLY what I was thinking as soon as it said, she has done this TWICE before!!!

I'm all for equal rights, but how is this equal?


I'm starting to think it is time for a state law mandating that the less-lethal weapon be carried on the weak side.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

How about not using a taser when someone is already in the back of a police car and hand cuffed.

SwissFluCase
08-24-2011, 9:37 PM
How about one that says they can't be used for compliance?

I didn't want to get my hopes up.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

g17owner
08-24-2011, 9:49 PM
How about the family of the deceased gets to handcuff her then shoot her in the back of a car. I think that would be justice. Had she done this ONCE i think it could be excusable but THREE times total and then kills someone especially with these circumstances. She deserves prison time and to be sued in civil court.

cdtx2001
08-25-2011, 6:18 AM
How about not using a taser when someone is already in the back of a police car and hand cuffed.

Or handcuffed and laying face down on a station platform... I'm not defending the suspect or the officer in that incident... Just bringing out another example.

You know... If you screwed a small ceramic piece onto your shoes, it would punch right through tempered glass.... totaly random thought of the evening...

But you would have to know the police were coming and get your ceramic pieces in place. To walk around all the time with them in your shoes would wear them down to the point where they were useless. I do like the idea though.

Untamed1972
08-25-2011, 7:39 AM
How could the lower court find that a person who is handcuffed and being detained in the back of a patrol car is not considered to have been "seized"? :rolleyes:

Isn't that the very definition of being seized?

If you are not free to go....you've been seized.....period!

I really gotta wonder about these judges sometimes.....and the judge got reverse TWICE on appeal! :eek:

Although it's obviously a good thing for officers to have as many "force options" as possible, with the increasing regularity of officers mistaking their handgun for their taser I'm beginning to wonder about the prudence of officers carrying both. Perhaps they need to look at something like changing the design of the tasrer so it doesn't feel like a handgun in your hand so that there would be an immediate tactile difference to the hand, or possibly having the taser carried on the weak hand side (opposite side of handgun). I think having 2 handgun shaped/feeling things on the same side is obviously not a good idea and citizens are being killed because of it.

dantodd
08-25-2011, 7:48 AM
Or handcuffed and laying face down on a station platform... I'm not defending the suspect or the officer in that incident... Just bringing out another example.

A very different case. In the BART case Grant was still not fully under control and there w no indication that the cop intended tovpull the trigger. Also, in that case, the cop WAS convicted. In this case the fact that the same cop made the same error repeatedly before taking someone's life is more damning to her and certainly beings the issue of institutional culpability to the fore.

But you would have to know the police were coming and get your ceramic pieces in place. To walk around all the time with them in your shoes would wear them down to the point where they were useless. I do like the idea though.

I read his suggestion as putting the piece somewhere other than the walking surface. Back of the heel perhaps.

swilson
08-25-2011, 7:56 AM
"Her only stated concern was for Everardo's own well-being, but a jury might question the reasonableness of choosing to send 1,200 volts of electricity through a person when the alleged concern is for that person's safety," he added.
A jury could reasonably decide that the proposed use of a Taser on the handcuffed suspect would amount to excessive force and violation of the Fourth Amendment, according to the panel.

Whatever happened to opening the Crown Vic door and yelling "Hey! Chill the **** out!"

AJAX22
08-25-2011, 7:57 AM
Or handcuffed and laying face down on a station platform... I'm not defending the suspect or the officer in that incident... Just bringing out another example.



But you would have to know the police were coming and get your ceramic pieces in place. To walk around all the time with them in your shoes would wear them down to the point where they were useless. I do like the idea though.

I put a bit more thought into it...

A ceramic screw could be inserted into the sole of the shoe from the side... either the tip or the heel, at an angle so it didn't make contact during normal wear...

The product already exists in china... .just needs to be repurposed and packaged here in the US

http://file.seekpart.com/productsimage/2011/1/20/201112016455625s.jpg

punch a small hole with an awl, squirt a little super glue in, and stick the ceramic screw in the hole...

et voila... shoes that can punch right through a window easily

Wherryj
08-25-2011, 10:06 AM
If police departments switched to using tasers similar to the Taser C2, then these kinds of "mistakes" would no longer occur.

...then we'd only have to worry about the occasional "random" death that occurs with the use of a taser. There is no way to make a taser an absolutely safe device to be used when force is not indicated, "just an easier alternative".

I don't argue with officers using a taser when the use is appropriate-as in any time that they feel that their own safety is threatened, etc.-but this case seems to not support the use of the taser. Kicking the car window? Threaten the guy with getting the repair bill maybe, but taser/shoot him?

SickofSoCal
08-25-2011, 11:13 AM
another question that must be addressed is: how often is it really necessary for cops to use deadly force?

As often as possible (apparently)

dantodd
08-25-2011, 11:17 AM
Lethal force is likely necessary when a confrontation includes a disparity of force that puts the officer in danger. The use of force will automatically go up when the physical requirements to be an officer are reduced. I.e. If there are more smaller and less strong officers they will be forced to rely on more powerful tools to apply force where larger/stronger officer might grapple or use a baton.

chuckdc
08-25-2011, 12:50 PM
I know a little more of this case than was in the article.

A classmate of mine was her partner (but not on this call) At the time this occurred, we were in Criminology classes at Fresno City College. He spoke to her right after this happened. The location of where she carried the Taser on her body was in the spot where the Taser company training school and the local agency told her to. Because of her build, it was very easy for her to reach the holstered gun instead of the holstered Taser that was right below it (or so her former partner said), PLUS in the situation that was occurring, where the guy was kicking the patrol car windows, a rowdy crowd behind her back as she faced the patrol car was throwing bottles and other objects (the incident was a "party" that had gone way out of hand). She and one other officer were the only ones there, with a fairly large crowd of drunks all upset that their homie was being busted. This occurred in one of the rougher parts of Madera, which isn't exactly the garden spot of California.
There's more than a fair likelihood that she will not ever work in LE again, from what her former partner told me of her mental state. He told me that she was a pretty good cop that was in a crummy situation and made a bad mistake.

Maestro Pistolero
08-25-2011, 1:01 PM
A certain SOCAL agency I know mandates that less-lethal weapon be kept on the opposite side of the belt from the lethal weapons. Good policy.

I even do the same with my daily carry: pepper spray and tac-light on the left, knife and firearm on the right.

stix213
08-25-2011, 1:03 PM
Wrong... The Taser would be used it as a torture device whenever the cop got ticked off. "Absolute power corrupts" comes to mind... Say something the officer doesn't like, TASED! At least with the use of a gun, There would be an investigation and media coverage.

I was referring to the mistake of confusing your gun with your taser. The C2 is shaped dissimilarly to a firearm, making them difficult to confuse, as opposed to most of the other taser models that are designed specifically to be operated like a handgun (hence the increased likelihood of confusion).

If you just want to go on an anti-cop tirade about how they want to torture people, well I can't follow you there.

...then we'd only have to worry about the occasional "random" death that occurs with the use of a taser. There is no way to make a taser an absolutely safe device to be used when force is not indicated, "just an easier alternative".

I don't argue with officers using a taser when the use is appropriate-as in any time that they feel that their own safety is threatened, etc.-but this case seems to not support the use of the taser. Kicking the car window? Threaten the guy with getting the repair bill maybe, but taser/shoot him?

Billy clubs have a higher death rate than tasers, which would be a likely alternative if the taser went away. Its actually safer to get zapped with a taser than drive a car. Have some perspective.

You think threatening someone with a repair bill is effective? :rolleyes: Sounds like the strategy the UK used to prevent the riots....

dantodd
08-25-2011, 1:04 PM
Um... You don't fire a gun at the guy already cuffed and stuffed when the threat is 180 degrees away. There is very little excuse for grabbing the wrong weapon when you've been twice reprimanded and received remedial training.

She'll likely not work in law enforcement again? You have to be kidding. She should be in jail, not contemplating the possibility of a future in LE.

She should face the same type of conviction as a drunk driver who has 2 DUIs and then kills someone driving drunk a third time. Of course it was an accident, but she was well aware that she needed to take greater care than others when drawing her weapon.

Actions have consequences. Taking inadequate care when drawing and using a deadly weapon has consequences. A dept. that puts an obviously under performing officer on the street where her presence can reasonably be seen to be a danger to society must also face consequences.

Oh, so the bad guy was a homie? I guess that makes murdering him OK. Do you feel the same way about hookers? You know, they're hookers, of course they get beat up and raped.

chuckdc
08-25-2011, 1:26 PM
Um... You don't fire a gun at the guy already cuffed and stuffed when the threat is 180 degrees away. There is very little excuse for grabbing the wrong weapon when you've been twice reprimanded and received remedial training.

She'll likely not work in law enforcement again? You have to be kidding. She should be in jail, not contemplating the possibility of a future in LE.

She should face the same type of conviction as a drunk driver who has 2 DUIs and then kills someone driving drunk a third time. Of course it was an accident, but she was well aware that she needed to take greater care than others when drawing her weapon.

Actions have consequences. Taking inadequate care when drawing and using a deadly weapon has consequences. A dept. that puts an obviously under performing officer on the street where her presence can reasonably be seen to be a danger to society must also face consequences.

Oh, so the bad guy was a homie? I guess that makes murdering him OK. Do you feel the same way about hookers? You know, they're hookers, of course they get beat up and raped.

She wasn't intentionally firing the gun at him. She drew what she thought was the Taser (in this case, the model was fairly similar to a Glock) and it went bang instead of pop-sizzle.

I only mentioned that the guy was a homie to put into context that it wasn't a nice sterile room with a computer in it, where you have lots and lots of time to think about what happened. It was night time, in a crummy area, with a crowd of drunk hostile people that are probably not exactly strangers to hurting other people for fun and profit, throwing bottles and other assorted stuff, while their buddy in the car was trying to break out of the car by breaking the window with his feet. The cop has the car door open and the guy is struggling to get out, she reached for the Taser which was just where she had been told to put it (rather than in a safer, less likely to be confused location) by both the agency and the manufacturer, and came up with the gun, instead. Her partner was facing the "threat" of the crowd, while she was dealing with the guy in the car.

Yeah, I think she could well have been convicted, at best, for involuntary manslaughter. She also has to live with it for the rest of her life, which is going to be a lot longer and probably worse than any sentence she would receive for what happened here. She also is likely going to be financially ruined.

I never said that "murdering" him was OK, "homie" or not, and I think you're probably a better person than to make that statement. I hope I'm not wrong.

Untamed1972
08-25-2011, 1:27 PM
I know a little more of this case than was in the article.

A classmate of mine was her partner (but not on this call) At the time this occurred, we were in Criminology classes at Fresno City College. He spoke to her right after this happened. The location of where she carried the Taser on her body was in the spot where the Taser company training school and the local agency told her to. Because of her build, it was very easy for her to reach the holstered gun instead of the holstered Taser that was right below it (or so her former partner said), PLUS in the situation that was occurring, where the guy was kicking the patrol car windows, a rowdy crowd behind her back as she faced the patrol car was throwing bottles and other objects (the incident was a "party" that had gone way out of hand). She and one other officer were the only ones there, with a fairly large crowd of drunks all upset that their homie was being busted. This occurred in one of the rougher parts of Madera, which isn't exactly the garden spot of California.
There's more than a fair likelihood that she will not ever work in LE again, from what her former partner told me of her mental state. He told me that she was a pretty good cop that was in a crummy situation and made a bad mistake.

So here's an idea......the guys are already cuffed and in the car. If the crowd was getting out of hand, then hop in the driver's seat and boogie out of the area and wait for back up to arrive, or once safely away from the crowd decide if holding these guys for whatever minor offenses they were likely guilty of is worth starting a riot over.

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

Given this officer's history with this same issue....she should never have been out on the street and put in a position to use force of any kind on anyone because she had clearly demonstrated a lack of ability to handle the stress of properly making those decisions.

dantodd
08-25-2011, 2:06 PM
She wasn't intentionally firing the gun at him. She drew what she thought was the Taser (in this case, the model was fairly similar to a Glock) and it went bang instead of pop-sizzle.


She had been repeatedly warned and rec'd remedial training. This isn't a case of a mistake. She, and the dept knew that she could not distinguish between her sidearm and her taser. Just like a serial drunk driver doesn't intend to kill they know that they are incapable of making rational judgments and of physically controlling their vehicle so they go to jail for an extended period if they kill someone. I see zero difference here.


I only mentioned that the guy was a homie to put into context that it wasn't a nice sterile room with a computer in it, where you have lots and lots of time to think about what happened. It was night time, in a crummy area, with a crowd of drunk hostile people that are probably not exactly strangers to hurting other people for fun and profit, throwing bottles and other assorted stuff, while their buddy in the car was trying to break out of the car by breaking the window with his feet. The cop has the car door open and the guy is struggling to get out, she reached for the Taser which was just where she had been told to put it (rather than in a safer, less likely to be confused location) by both the agency and the manufacturer, and came up with the gun, instead. Her partner was facing the "threat" of the crowd, while she was dealing with the guy in the car.

That's sort of the work environment one accepts when one chooses to become a cop. If you can't hack it quit. Really though if she couldn't hack she should have been fired. You can't simultaneously say she is a good cop and say that she is incapable of dealing wiin the work environment. She may be a nice lady but she's a lousy cop and should be an inmate.

Yeah, I think she could well have been convicted, at best, for involuntary manslaughter. She also has to live with it for the rest of her life, which is going to be a lot longer and probably worse than any sentence she would receive for what happened here. She also is likely going to be financially ruined.

Do feel similar sympathy for drunk drivers? I mean they almost certainly killvcompletely innocent people, not people in the back of police cars. Should they be let go with no trial or conviction because they'll have to live with it for the rest of their lives? I just don't see how you think that incompetence and poor judgement should not have legal ramifications for this woman.

I never said that "murdering" him was OK, "homie" or not, and I think you're probably a better person than to make that statement. I hope I'm not wrong.

Then let's just agree that whether he was a homie, cracker, or brother is irrelevant and you really shouldn't have brought it up as a mitigating factor. I'm happy to let it drop.

oc3068
08-25-2011, 2:15 PM
Well mine is bright yellow in a cross draw holster. There's no way I can mistake that for my firearm as it's all the way across at my 10 o'clock.

It's just this particular mistake. She did it in the past. She had been practicing not to do it. Yet in a "routine" law enforcement situation, despite all the practice, she did it again and now someone is dead.

I do have one technical suggestion: The Teaser should not be made to look like or operate like a handgun. Nor should it be "holstered" on the leg just below a holstered handgun. This unfortunate officer clearly shows why.

Maybe the Taser should be bright orange and shaped like a football.

dantodd
08-25-2011, 2:18 PM
Well mine is bright yellow in a cross draw holster. There's no way I can mistake that for my firearm as it's all the way across at my 10 o'clock.

For well trained officers who don't lock up under pressure that is probably a very good technique. Strong side draw your sidearm and cross draw gazer etc. I presume that this cop in question had issues since both the mfg and her pd told her to not do that.

dantodd
08-25-2011, 2:21 PM
The article doesn't say so but how did she expect the taser to work against the victim? Dd she draw, open the door then shoot him (which seems even more damning as she had that much more time to recognize that she she the wrong weapon) or did she totally freeze under stress and try to shoot him with a taser through a window?

stix213
08-25-2011, 2:39 PM
The article doesn't say so but how did she expect the taser to work against the victim? Dd she draw, open the door then shoot him (which seems even more damning as she had that much more time to recognize that she she the wrong weapon) or did she totally freeze under stress and try to shoot him with a taser through a window?

Taser's aren't effective through a vehicle window, so I doubt that was the case.

dantodd
08-25-2011, 2:43 PM
Taser's aren't effective through a vehicle window, so I doubt that was the case.

I was asking which was the case.

The court said that her concern was for his safety because he might break the window and injure himself.

Ifnshenwas telling the truth the window was closed. Therefore she either opened the door, panicked so badly that she tried to shoot her taser through the window, or she lied about something.

TreadonmenoT
08-25-2011, 2:48 PM
so will she be given PTO, then reprimanded or just "resign",

or will she be put in jail, or can we do this :12:

safewaysecurity
08-25-2011, 3:09 PM
How can you mistake an all black much heavier full size Glock 22 with a much more lightweight bumblebee color pattern with a lazer sight tazer? YOu would have to be a complete idiot to mistake the two imo. I mean you shouldn't really even deploy the taser until you see the laser on your target.

oc3068
08-25-2011, 3:55 PM
1. Taser X26s comes in clear, black and yellow. If it's the black variety, you can't easily distinguish them by color.

2. That incident occured at night, a yellow taser wouldn't look much different than a glock.

3. The laser, as well as the led light can be turned off individually. Although I have no idea why one would do that.

4. Given that her sidearm and taser were at close proximity, if she decided to draw the taser and deploy right away, once she made the mistake in drawing there's really no turning back. I know anytime if I were to use a less-lethal option, I will want to look and make sure it is indeed what I wanted it to be. But some officers are not like that, they just think pull and deploy.

All I'm saying is given that she made a poor choice for placing both weapons on the same side, her inability to distinguish between the two weapons in a rush is not a big surprise.

How can you mistake an all black much heavier full size Glock 22 with a much more lightweight bumblebee color pattern with a lazer sight tazer? YOu would have to be a complete idiot to mistake the two imo. I mean you shouldn't really even deploy the taser until you see the laser on your target.

Steve1968LS2
08-25-2011, 4:18 PM
I know a little more of this case than was in the article.

A classmate of mine was her partner (but not on this call) At the time this occurred, we were in Criminology classes at Fresno City College. He spoke to her right after this happened. The location of where she carried the Taser on her body was in the spot where the Taser company training school and the local agency told her to. Because of her build, it was very easy for her to reach the holstered gun instead of the holstered Taser that was right below it (or so her former partner said), PLUS in the situation that was occurring, where the guy was kicking the patrol car windows, a rowdy crowd behind her back as she faced the patrol car was throwing bottles and other objects (the incident was a "party" that had gone way out of hand). She and one other officer were the only ones there, with a fairly large crowd of drunks all upset that their homie was being busted. This occurred in one of the rougher parts of Madera, which isn't exactly the garden spot of California.
There's more than a fair likelihood that she will not ever work in LE again, from what her former partner told me of her mental state. He told me that she was a pretty good cop that was in a crummy situation and made a bad mistake.

A mistake is putting on mismatched socks or forgetting to lock the door... I think blowing away someone who is handcuffed in the back of a police car is bit more than "a mistake"

I wonder if one of us would go to jail for this??

Oops.. sorry you're dead.. my mistake.. pardon me...

stix213
08-25-2011, 4:32 PM
1. Taser X26s comes in clear, black and yellow. If it's the black variety, you can't easily distinguish them by color.


The Taser the officer reportedly was carrying was actually the M26, not the X26. Formally named the M18L before it was renamed the M26, its extremely similar to the M18 I keep in my night stand. Its the most handgun-like, and Glock-like, of all Taser models. I can tell you in hand it feels like a handgun, its purposely designed to. Having 8 AA batteries in the grip doesn't make it much lighter than one either.

Here's a pic of the exact model (again M26):

http://members.socket.net/~joshc/44001.jpg

Under stress I am not surprised this specific model Taser can be confused with a Glock. I also own (and carry on my person at all times) a Taser C2, which is virtually impossible to confuse with a firearm since you press a button on the top of the device to activate it, instead of pressing a firearm style trigger. I'd like to see police departments switch to this design to eliminate confusion between Taser and firearm, even though the C2 is currently marketed as a civilian product (cause it can fit easily in your purse, etc). Also its WAY lighter, while still just as effective.

C2:
http://www.coolest-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/taser-c2.jpg

socal2310
08-25-2011, 4:57 PM
I'm astonished that departments are still not using cross-draw holsters. Placing them in close proximity to a firearm seems to be begging for an incident like this.

Ryan

Kavey
08-26-2011, 12:35 AM
The Taser the officer reportedly was carrying was actually the M26, not the X26. Formally named the M18L before it was renamed the M26, its extremely similar to the M18 I keep in my night stand. Its the most handgun-like, and Glock-like, of all Taser models. I can tell you in hand it feels like a handgun, its purposely designed to. Having 8 AA batteries in the grip doesn't make it much lighter than one either.

Here's a pic of the exact model (again M26):

http://members.socket.net/~joshc/44001.jpg

Oh my God! How could anybody think designing a "less-lethal" weapon (the Taser M26) to so closely mimic a handgun could possibly be a good idea.

Since law enforcement agencies are major purchasers of Tasers, the danger of misidentification under stress is more than obvious.

Now that I know what the Taser that the officer involved in this tragic incident was using actually looks like, I'm beginning to have a little sympathy for her (just a very little).

I'm not crazy about ambulance chasing tort lawyers. But, if I was one, in addition to suing the officer, I'd be all over the Taser company for marketing such an inherently dangerous device to law enforcement. I would, of course, also sue the law enforcement for being stupid enough to issue them.

This whole thing gives me a great idea: How about selling Jack Daniels in baby bottles. Why not? It's cute. Just be sure to put the following statement (in very small print, of course) somewhere on the bottle. "WARNING: Not intended for actual babies!"


____________________________

I'm not a lawyer, but I have seen every episode of Judge Judy.

chuckdc
08-26-2011, 6:30 AM
I'm astonished that departments are still not using cross-draw holsters. Placing them in close proximity to a firearm seems to be begging for an incident like this.

Ryan

Part of my point was that the department AND Taser Inc or whatever their company name is trained her to have the Taser and the Glock on the same side, think Glock on a drop holder on the belt, and Taser on a leg holster.

chuckdc
08-26-2011, 6:36 AM
A mistake is putting on mismatched socks or forgetting to lock the door... I think blowing away someone who is handcuffed in the back of a police car is bit more than "a mistake"

I wonder if one of us would go to jail for this??

Oops.. sorry you're dead.. my mistake.. pardon me...

In this particular case, the officer had the back door of the car open, dealing with a struggling guy in close quarters who had been kicking the window, and was now (I wasn't there, but I'd guess) kicking or whatever at her at the time. She reached down for the Taser and came up with the (very similar) gun instead. At MOST, it's negligent because she had been re-trained on this. I'd put it more in the "accident" category, given the circumstances.

Steve1968LS2
08-26-2011, 7:04 AM
In this particular case, the officer had the back door of the car open, dealing with a struggling guy in close quarters who had been kicking the window, and was now (I wasn't there, but I'd guess) kicking or whatever at her at the time. She reached down for the Taser and came up with the (very similar) gun instead. At MOST, it's negligent because she had been re-trained on this. I'd put it more in the "accident" category, given the circumstances.

Sorry, I disagree.. this is the police version of malpractice so at best she should be charged with negligent homicide..

The prisoner was in HER care.. his safety were HER responsibility and she murdered him due to her own incompetence..

You can sugar coat it all you like, but if you and I had that "accident" we would be sitting in jail.

Caladain
08-26-2011, 7:37 AM
In this particular case, the officer had the back door of the car open, dealing with a struggling guy in close quarters who had been kicking the window, and was now (I wasn't there, but I'd guess) kicking or whatever at her at the time. She reached down for the Taser and came up with the (very similar) gun instead. At MOST, it's negligent because she had been re-trained on this. I'd put it more in the "accident" category, given the circumstances.

Seems to fit the bill of manslaughter at the very least, without going into the use of a less-lethal weapon instead of a non-lethal weapon.

RRichie09
08-26-2011, 8:08 AM
There's more than a fair likelihood that she will not ever work in LE again, from what her former partner told me of her mental state.

1) There's a chance she may still be allowed to be a cop? :eek:

2) You make it sound like it would be her choice to return to the force or not. :eek:



I had nothing against everything else you posted. But that sentence is crazy.

chuckdc
08-26-2011, 9:34 AM
1) There's a chance she may still be allowed to be a cop? :eek:

2) You make it sound like it would be her choice to return to the force or not. :eek:



I had nothing against everything else you posted. But that sentence is crazy.

It was more of a hypothetical, assuming she was cleared, etc. Even if she WAS, she would not be mentally able to face it again. In fact, she's pretty unlikely to ever have much of a career in any field at all at this point, given the situation.

chuckdc
08-26-2011, 9:39 AM
Sorry, I disagree.. this is the police version of malpractice so at best she should be charged with negligent homicide..

The prisoner was in HER care.. his safety were HER responsibility and she murdered him due to her own incompetence..

You can sugar coat it all you like, but if you and I had that "accident" we would be sitting in jail.

"Negligent homicide", in the setting of being in a fight,even with a handcuffed prisoner, is most likely going to end up as involuntary manslaughter IF she'd get convicted of anything (juries in the Central Valley are not exactly harsh on cops), like I mentioned a while back. If she were tried in Oakland, or SF.. maybe something more than that, maybe a voluntary manslaughter. Murder? not likely. One of the things that's bothered me in this thread is how "murder" has been tossed around. There's a level of intent/state of mind that is required for that, and I just don't see how it's met here.


Of course, IANAL.

dantodd
08-26-2011, 11:30 AM
Murder? not likely. One of the things that's bothered me in this thread is how "murder" has been tossed around. There's a level of intent/state of mind that is required for that, and I just don't see how it's met here.

I agree and I am guilty of having said "murder" it is an "unlawful killing" but that takes too long to type. From the facts that are present, which are certainly inadequate to take a firm stance, I would agree that manslaughter is the most likely charge she would face if the DA chose to file.

192 Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice. It is of three kinds:
(a) Voluntary--upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.
(b) Involuntary--in the commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to felony; or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection. This subdivision shall not apply to acts committed in the driving of a vehicle.
(c) vehicular

From what I've seen involuntary seems the most likely crime that was committed. She knew that using force "might produce death" and clearly she acted "without due caution and circumspection"

If she were not a cop it is likely that she would have been charged, instead with voluntary. Your statement that this happened because of the stress etc. also suggests that somehow "heat of passion" was involved. If the bullet went through glass, which is unclear in what I've read, I would have a difficult time buying her story that she meant to grab her taser.

chuckdc
08-27-2011, 6:11 AM
The bullet didn't go through glass. She had the car door open while she was attempting to stop the prisoner from kicking, etc. according to the original accounts at the time, and what I got verbally from her ex-partner.

dantodd
08-27-2011, 6:54 AM
The bullet didn't go through glass. She had the car door open while she was attempting to stop the prisoner from kicking, etc. according to the original accounts at the time, and what I got verbally from her ex-partner.

That information, which I have no reason to disbelieve, would make me lean mich more toward involuntary.

Hunt
08-27-2011, 7:12 AM
cops are dangerous, they have guns and authority, far better to ignore the predominant cultural narrative that they are there to "protect and serve." Much better to err on the side of caution, even if wrong, and realize how dangerous they can be. Too bad the few corrupt and incompetent cops smear the reputation of the good guys.