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cmth
08-24-2011, 2:04 AM
Just an idea that I thought I would float here. It seems to me that it may be possible to make a "shotgun" with a barrel of less than 18" that does not run afoul of NFA laws. Whether they violate California laws or not I can't say (probably does).

The way to do this would be to start with a Title I non-longgun pistol-grip-only 18" "shotgun" (in quotes because it does not meet the federal definition of a shotgun, since there isn't and never was a shoulder stock), install a bird's head type grip (greater length than your typical shotgun pistol grip) that lengthens the firearm from the rear of the receiver, and then install a shortened magazine tube and 14" barrel.

This would typically yield a firearm that is greater than 26" in length (of course being careful to ensure that this is the case before the short barrel is installed) and should therefore not make the firearm an AOW under the NFA laws, since the overall length is not less than 26". There also appears to be someone who has produced one of these "shotguns" as I found on this page (http://www.shockwavetechnologies.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=50) when I was looking for suitable bird's head type grips. There is a photo there of the firearm in that configuration.

The genesis for this idea came to me from the Franklin Armory XO-26 which is a Title I firearm with an 11.5" barrel and an overall length greater than 26", as well as a vertical foregrip and does not have a shoulder stock. That firearm is not considered a pistol nor is it an AOW even though it has a short barrel and vertical foregrip, because it has an OAL greater than 26".

I have a Mossberg factory pistol-grip-only firearm which has never had a shoulder stock installed that I would love to use as a platform for such a project if it were in fact legal to do so in the United States and California.

cmth
08-24-2011, 2:38 AM
After reading the California penal code, it seems this type of firearm would fall into the same trap as the Taurus Judge, so it would not be legal in California. This is because it fires a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel of less than 18". So let's keep the discussion on the federal legality of the firearm.

Merc1138
08-24-2011, 2:50 AM
After reading the California penal code, it seems this type of firearm would fall into the same trap as the Taurus Judge, so it would not be legal in California. This is because it fires a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel of less than 18". So let's keep the discussion on the federal legality of the firearm.

Apparently the taurus judge can be had as an AOW as long as there's a forward grip on it and the barrel is longer than 3 inches.

There is of course also the KEG12 and serbu shorty that can apparently be purchased in CA as an AOW if you have an NFA trust.

cmth
08-24-2011, 2:54 AM
http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf
http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf

Some ATF letters to support the theoretical 14" non-NFA shotgun. I like the part in the second letter where they say that because a pistol-grip-only shotgun is not a shotgun as defined by the law, barrel length is only considered when determining the overall length of the firearm. This also was referenced in the letter for the XO-26 as to why the 11.5" barrel does not make it a pistol or AOW.

cmth
08-24-2011, 2:58 AM
Apparently the taurus judge can be had as an AOW as long as there's a forward grip on it and the barrel is longer than 3 inches.

There is of course also the KEG12 and serbu shorty that can apparently be purchased in CA as an AOW if you have an NFA trust.

True. But the Judge in its default configuration is a short-barreled shotgun in California and is illegal. And I am aware of the AOWs that are available, however I was hypothesizing a short-barreled firearm that was not an AOW and would not need a tax stamp to own. Which is apparently a dead end in California due to how this state's SBS law is written, but it would be legal if it had a length under 26" and the $5/$200 tax stamp was paid.

Kharn
08-24-2011, 4:43 AM
Federally you're good to go, but definitely carry a copy of the ATF's letter and check local laws carefully.

The one in my avatar is about 25.5", with the OEM 14" barrel, but it was very uncomfortable to shoot so I put the shortest Hogue stock I could find on it. Now its my second favorite range toy, after my Uzi.

ke6guj
08-24-2011, 7:27 AM
True. But the Judge in its default configuration is a short-barreled shotgun in California and is illegal. And I am aware of the AOWs that are available, however I was hypothesizing a short-barreled firearm that was not an AOW and would not need a tax stamp to own. Which is apparently a dead end in California due to how this state's SBS law is written, but it would be legal if it had a length under 26" and the $5/$200 tax stamp was paid.right, even though it iwould be legal federally based, it would be an illegal SBS in CA without an AOW exemption. Have it made <26" and it would be an AOW and it would be legal in CA.

RP1911
08-24-2011, 8:33 AM
What if a 14" rifled barrel was used? Would it run afoul of CA laws?

ke6guj
08-24-2011, 8:36 AM
What if a 14" rifled barrel was used? Would it run afoul of CA laws?

if it can shoot a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel <18", it is an SBS in CA, even if it has a rifled barrel.

CHS
08-24-2011, 11:06 AM
The thing to do would be to make it 25.75" OAL, and just have it as a registered AOW.

Then it's legal in CA.

Otherwise, yes, Federal law would not consider a PGO "shotgun" with a 14" barrel a "shotgun" or an SBS as long as the OAL was at least 26". Under 26" would be an AOW.

cmth
08-24-2011, 11:27 AM
$200 tax to the feds for a half inch stings, especially because in most other states you'd be making it an SBS and not an AOW for that price. I'll wait until I move out of the state and then I will install the 14" barrel.

dantodd
08-24-2011, 11:52 AM
$200 tax to the feds for a half inch stings, especially because in most other states you'd be making it an SBS and not an AOW for that price. I'll wait until I move out of the state and then I will install the 14" barrel.

I think that even possession of "the 14" barrel" might be a problem if you don't have a legal outlet for it.

1911su16b870
08-24-2011, 12:59 PM
OC Armory has an AOW judge with FPG! FTW!

nicki
08-24-2011, 1:12 PM
Something else to consider.

Any weapon that is greater than 50 caliber would be considered a "Destructive Device".

The ATF made exceptions for sporting shotguns, but since this 14 ich shotgun isn't a sporting device, while you may get around the 18 inch rule, you could get bit by it being classified as a destructive device unless your gun was a .410 guage.

Nicki

cmth
08-24-2011, 8:24 PM
I think that even possession of "the 14" barrel" might be a problem if you don't have a legal outlet for it.

I haven't even found a source for the 14" barrel and mag tube yet, other than calling up Mossberg and seeing if they will sell them to a non-gunsmith. My guess is they will not. I have not even been able to find a catalog number. All of the usual places only sell the normal barrels, not the "law enforcement" variety.

This project is only something that I will attempt once I have left the state of CA for good.

cmth
08-24-2011, 8:30 PM
Something else to consider.

Any weapon that is greater than 50 caliber would be considered a "Destructive Device".

The ATF made exceptions for sporting shotguns, but since this 14 ich shotgun isn't a sporting device, while you may get around the 18 inch rule, you could get bit by it being classified as a destructive device unless your gun was a .410 guage.

Nicki

It's not a destructive device because Mossberg is the manufacturer and they have an exemption for manufacturing >.50 firearms for sporting purposes. I would not be manufacturing any firearm with the changes that I proposed to the existing firearm. I would only be manufacturing a firearm if I converted it into an AOW or SBS per the NFA, but then DD doesn't apply either.

It's conceivable that I could be guilty of manufacturing a DD if I made the receiver from a block of aluminum on a CNC machine and then assembled it into the aforementioned configuration, but since there are other manufacturers of very similar firearms who have been given clearance on the DD issue, that may not be likely either. But I won't be doing that, as I already have a good receiver that has never been a shotgun.