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CK_32
08-23-2011, 10:40 AM
I'm wondering what are the legal times I can discharge my weapon in my home. When it is ok and not ok to pull a gun on someone.


Reason: I have had some suspicious charictores roaming my neighborhood lately and my aunts car has been stolen from out drive way 5th from my almost always open window. We have had my moms trunk yes just the trunk stolen off her car. My moms Honda looked into and people roaming our front yards and fences.


My question is now just buying a glock 17 when is it my right to pull this firearm on someone in defense. When does it make it ok to show and or use the weapon. Do they need a weapon? Do they need to charge?

I'm not worried about them in my front yard but in my back yard.. Or in my home. Do they need to have a weapon for me to pull it out? Or if they are in my home is that good enough?

Also I've always had this fear of a group of guys as in 5+ jumping me. Buddy in high school got messed up REAL bad from this once. Would it then be ok then to pull out my firearm or do they need to be armed? Because they didnt have a fire arm but 5 on 1 seems like a good enough weapon to me.

Because I have had some people follow me home or a few places before while driving home from work. I know this for a fact because a few times. Not the same people but just random people in 3 occasions. I'm not paranoid I promis. Just a lot of things have been going on lately in my neighborhood.

If there is a place to find this sorry I couldn't find it. Thanks for all your help with this. I just want to know now having a hd/car defense weapon (trunk)

CK_32
08-23-2011, 10:43 AM
And I'm no fearing for my life every day. There are just some times I feel that I should pull my weapon out and have it on the ready then think is it justified if I do pull it out right now?

I just want to k ow when I need to and can or when I need to grab a bat or just call the cops.

curtisfong
08-23-2011, 10:49 AM
Brandishing is always illegal.

If you are drawing, it means you are in fear of your safety, and it means you are firing to stop the threat. As others have said, in general, having your weapon drawn (where it is legal for you to open loaded carry) is better from a tactical (and safety standpoint). Drawing to threaten or intimidate where deadly force is not justified is never a good idea. The only justification for open loaded carry (i.e. drawing) where otherwise prohibited is to use justified deadly force.

Also, this does not mean drawing means you must shoot.

To summarize:

If the threat level is not high enough to justify your using deadly force, drawing your weapon to threaten is not justified.

[edited to clarify points others have made below]

CK_32
08-23-2011, 10:57 AM
Brandishing is always illegal.

If you are drawing, it means you are in fear of your safety, and it means you are firing to stop the threat.

If the threat level is not high enough to justify your using deadly force, drawing your weapon to threaten is not justified.

So then they don't HAVE to have a weapon to pull out my weapon?

As long as I feel my life or my families life is in harm it is justified?

Caladain
08-23-2011, 11:00 AM
If you're not trolling: (nothing below is legal advice)

1.) Practice, Practice, Practice. The wording of your post makes it seem like you recently acquired your glock. The time (heaven forbid) you need to use it should not be your first, or hundred and first, time drawing and putting rounds down range. Range time and a couple thousand rounds down range, plus a few courses would be optimal. I have never been in such a situation, but when in panic mode we do everything at 200mph, and thus everything should be muscle memory.

2.) Carry concealed if it's legal to do so where you are AND you have all the proper paperwork. Make sure your pistol is legal, and that your pistol matches what's on your LTC (if applicable). Make sure your method of carry is legal if you can't conceal carry. Get an LTC if you can. Get a good gun lawyer's card and keep it with your wallet.

3.) Draw only if you are in immediate fear for your life or the life of the ones you love. If you make the internal call to draw the weapon from it's holster, you should already have committed yourself to putting rounds down range IF it comes to that. If the BG backs off, let him back off, but Never point a gun at something you won't be willing to destroy, and Never draw a gun in a hostile situation unless you're willing to use it.

4.) Every round you send down range has a lawyer and potential jail time attached to it.

5.) Shoot to end the threat. Not to wound, not to kill, not to scare. To end the threat in the shortest and most direct manner possible. Once the threat is gone, stop engaging. (Ex. don't shoot a BG if he's backing off/running away.

6.) Shut up when the police arrive. Nothing you say can help, and can only hurt you. Say the minimum (see: http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xdtalk-chatter-box/120098-massad-ayoobs-5-things-do-after-shooting.html#post1946581), state you are shaken up (you will be), and that you need to contact your lawyer.

7.) Read pretty much everything you can find on this board. All of the above and pretty much any question you might have have, more that likely, been answered.

Maestro Pistolero
08-23-2011, 11:42 AM
Brandishing is always illegal.

If you are drawing, it means you are in fear of your safety, and it means you are firing to stop the threat.

If the threat level is not high enough to justify your using deadly force, drawing your weapon to threaten is not justified.

True. I would add that sometimes there may be an emerging threat that is significant enough to draw, but that may not develop to the degree that requires actually firing the weapon.

Sometimes a drawn weapon will diffuse/deter the threat. The idea that if you draw the gun you must automatically fire it is not accurate. (I don't think that's what curtisfong was saying, but I have seen it written many times.)

Self-defense scenarios are dynamic, stressful events that have rapidly changing levels of threat which must be matched by the appropriate level of force, and not more.

When you train, train your mind to be constantly asking the question (as if on speed dial) is my life in imminent danger? If it is, then lethal force may be justified. If it's not, then no.

LE used to call it threat/no threat training. Train with your guns, but train your mind to track the threat level to the best of your ability.

OP, search disparity of force. You will find answers to many of your questions.

6.) Shut up when the police arrive. Nothing you say can help, and can only hurt you. Say the minimum, state you are shaken up (you will be), and that you need to contact your lawyer.

Not completely true in the case of a defensive shooting. Massad Ayoob has great advice here. If you say nothing, you will be treated only as a suspect. If you give certain minimal information per Ayoob, you will tilt the investigation in the correct direction.
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xdtalk-chatter-box/120098-massad-ayoobs-5-things-do-after-shooting.html

My two cents.

fiddletown
08-23-2011, 11:55 AM
[1] Look around for an NRA certified instructor teaching a Personal Protection Inside the Home class. That will give you a good foundation.

[2] This site (http://www.useofforce.us/) provides a good overview on the general law regarding the use of force in self defense.

[3] In general, one may draw a gun only when he would be justified in using lethal force. And in general, one is justified in using lethal force only when a reasonable and prudent person, in like circumstances and knowing what he knows, would conclude that lethal force was necessary to prevent otherwise immediate, unavoidable death or grave bodily injury to an innocent. And to demonstrate that there was indeed an immediate risk of death or grave bodily injury, one must generally show that the assailant reasonably appeared to -- have the Ability, i. e., the power to deliver force sufficient to cause death or grave bodily harm; have the Opportunity, i. e., the assailant was capable of immediately deploying such force; put an innocent in Jeopardy, i. e., the assailant was acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that he has the intent to kill or cripple. and circumstances Preclude other safe [to the defender] means of avoiding harm.

[4] So one does not threaten or use lethal force to protect property. And if you see something suspicious, call the cops.

[5] There's a good discussion here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=6999298) about handling the aftermath of a use of force.

dantodd
08-23-2011, 11:56 AM
Brandishing is always illegal.

If you are drawing, it means you are in fear of your safety, and it means you are firing to stop the threat.

If the threat level is not high enough to justify your using deadly force, drawing your weapon to threaten is not justified.

As long as you are not threatening anyone there is no requirement to keep your weapon in the holster unless you are going to shoot. If you are not well practiced in drawing from a holster you are much safer holding the weapon in your hand than having it in a holster while investigating someone uninvited in your home/yard. You should have a front fence etc. that will inhibit trespassers if you are going to carry in the front of the house legally. As long as your backyard is fenced (or front) you can freely carry open or concealed on your property.

In your house you can carry anytime you want. Anyone who breaks into your home and isn't related to you is considered a danger to your safety. This doesn't mean you should try and sneak up on them and shoot them but if you feel you need to for your safety this is the one place where the presumption is in your favor.

If someone is actively stealing your car, trunk or whatever from your driveway you cannot use a gun to stop them from doing so. But if you try to intervene and they credibly threaten to injure of kill you then you have a right to defend yourself.

None of the above is legal advice. You should read the laws and think very hard about what it means to take another life and what other things you can do to avoid that possibility.

Finally, get as much range time as possible. The more comfortable you are with your gun and how to shoot the less distracted you'll be by the weapon if/when you get into a stressful situation. The last thing you want to do is have to do is worry about HOW to shoot your gun if the need ever arises when you have decide IF you need to shoot it.

Caladain
08-23-2011, 12:07 PM
Not completely true in the case of a defensive shooting. Massad Ayoob has great advice here. If you say nothing, you will be treated only as a suspect. If you give certain minimal information per Ayoob, you will tilt the investigation in the correct direction.
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xdtalk-chatter-box/120098-massad-ayoobs-5-things-do-after-shooting.html

My two cents.

Absolutely correct, amended my post above.

curtisfong
08-23-2011, 12:40 PM
AIf you are not well practiced in drawing from a holster you are much safer holding the weapon in your hand than having it in a holster while investigating someone uninvited in your home/yard.

Absolutely. Edited my original post to clarify this. Thanks!

stix213
08-23-2011, 1:38 PM
Brandishing is always illegal.


There is a self defense exemption, so no it is not always illegal to brandish a firearm.

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/417.html

(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of
any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or
unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any
manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is
punishable as follows:

fiddletown
08-23-2011, 1:47 PM
There is a self defense exemption, so no it is not always illegal to brandish a firearm.

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/417.htmlBut that will only apply if the use if the gun in self defense was justified.

ZombieTactics
08-23-2011, 2:06 PM
So then they don't HAVE to have a weapon to pull out my weapon? Not necessarily, but you better have a damned good reason for thinking he needs to be shot or threatened with a gun. See below ...

As long as I feel my life or my families life is in harm it is justified? It depends upon what you mean by "feel". I suggest you read fiddletown's post over-n-over until you have a very clear sense that you get it.

The bad guy can be taking a baseball bat to your car, knocking over your fence, setting fire to your mailbox, throwing beer bottles at your house, calling your mother a whore and (probably) kicking your dog to death ... and that's not a legal reason to draw down on someone or shoot them.

You cannot draw a gun on someone just because you "feel scared". You have to have a rational reason to feel that your life (or another person's life) is being threatened right then. "Threatened" doesn't mean the guy looks scary or is shouting "Ima come kill y'all" from across the street. It means that he is doing something right then that has a good chance of killing you or putting you in the hospital if you don't stop him from doing it.

stix213
08-23-2011, 3:07 PM
But that will only apply if the use if the gun in self defense was justified.

Yes, but the blanket statement that brandishing is always illegal is plainly false.

CK_32
08-23-2011, 3:20 PM
Ok when I saw bad guy I mean wither a guy getting or already in side my house not looking to run off.

Or several attackers surrounding me and my car with intent to seriously harm.

Not the stupid kids down the street or the foul mouth guy yelling at my mother... But the guy with the bat bashing my car. What about if I'm in the car and he's trying to get inside TO ME...? Is the question I'm asking. Where I am threatened or my loved ones are. I'm asking all this now because now I do have a side arm for this specific reason and want to be clear on when I should even think about running to it. Because like said above when adrenalin and fear gets to us. We will always feel the need to best protect our selves. I just want to learn when the best time to think of a gun should be and not think gun for everything. But in this post above are my main reasonings for pulling out my firearm.

ZombieTactics
08-23-2011, 3:35 PM
You can simplify this down to a few points:

1) Is the bad guy DOING (or trying to do) something right now that is likely to kill or cause great bodily harm to you or someone else? If not ... call the cops. (Bashing out your headlights doesn't count, bashing in your car window - while you are IN THE CAR - probably does)

2) Assuming that condition #1 is met, can you or the other person run away, drive away or get away somehow so that there is no longer an immediate threat of death or great bodily injury? If so, do so and call the cops to report the incident. (If he's bashing in your car headlights or window ... why aren't you just driving away with a quickness?)

3) If you can't get away ... it's time to bring the thunder. (Don't draw the gun unless you intend fully to use it)

4) You only do whatever is necessary to stop the threat, and no more. If he backs off as you draw your gun ... you don't get to shoot him "just in case". If you shoot him once and he falls down ... stop shooting unless he gets up and/or makes another attempt on you. If he falls down again you don't get to shoot him one more time "so he doesn't get up again", etc.

My personal advice would be not to draw or shoot unless you are willing to go to prison over it. The facts aren't always clear to cops, witnesses, judges and juries, and you could do time for what you personally know was a good shoot.

fiddletown
08-23-2011, 3:57 PM
Ok when I saw bad guy I mean wither a guy getting or already in side my house not looking to run off....How do you know he's a bad guy? If he's in your house, do you know how he got there? If he's not in your house, how do you know he's trying to get in, and what exactly is he doing? How would you know whether or not someone is "looking to run off"? And it's not necessarily what you think. It's what the hypothetical reasonable and prudent person would think.

...Or several attackers surrounding me and my car with intent to seriously harm.... You're inside a multi-ton, mobile weapon. How is anyone going to cause you harm? (Maybe you are at risk, but if you're going to take that position, you better have a good explanation for why you concluded that. And if you don't just start your car and take off, you better have a really good explanation for that.)

...I'm asking all this now because now I do have a side arm for this specific reason and want to be clear on when I should even think about running to it....Yes, you do need to really understand this stuff, because if you use a gun when it's not justified, you'll be going to jail. Our legal system does not have any sense of humor about the unjustified use of lethal force.

But on the other hand, there are no simple answers. Whether in a particular situation your use of lethal force would be justified will depend and exactly what is happening and how it is happening. And perhaps the best rule of thumb would be that you do not use lethal force unless there is no other way to save your life or the life on an innocent (and only as long as you didn't start the fracus).

...We will always feel the need to best protect our selves. I just want to learn when the best time to think of a gun should be and not think gun for everything. But in this post above are my main reasonings for pulling out my firearm.So maybe we should put it this way: the only time to think of your gun is when absolutely nothing else will save your life. If there's anything else you could do, it's not yet time for your gun. So if someone is breaking or stealing your property, call the cops. If you're inside your car and someone attacks you there, start the car and get out of Dodge -- and call the cops on your cell phone. If you're outside, get inside -- and call the cops.

So to really simplify matters, let's just say that the only reason to "pull your gun" is when you've run out of all other possible ways to save your life.

Sure, that's a gross simplification. But I've outlined the law and provided a link to a more exhaustive discussion of the law relating to the use of force, and all of that doesn't seem to be sinking in.

And I still think you need to take some classes -- both to assure that you can use your gun properly and to better understand the legal issues.

Glock22Fan
08-23-2011, 4:18 PM
This thread is pretty scary. Well over 2,000 posts and the OP needs to ask these questions? Is he posting without reading? Or just staying mostly in the Off Topic Lounge?

CK_32
08-23-2011, 5:31 PM
Zombie thanks for the response you made it very clear.

Glock fan I've never had a weapon to use for HD. sorry I didn't see the rule that states before asking all else or getting into the gun hobby you must know all laws and situations on HD. thanks for clearing that up.

Funny reply coming from a 4k poster.

Caladain
08-23-2011, 6:29 PM
Zombie thanks for the response you made it very clear.

Glock fan I've never had a weapon to use for HD. sorry I didn't see the rule that states before asking all else or getting into the gun hobby you must know all laws and situations on HD. thanks for clearing that up.

Funny reply coming from a 4k poster.

Don't forget to think about over penetration...that bullet has a good chance of going straight through, potentially with enough energy to go through a wall. Or, you know, you miss...and then it definitely goes through the wall..

CK_32
08-23-2011, 8:45 PM
Don't forget to think about over penetration...that bullet has a good chance of going straight through, potentially with enough energy to go through a wall. Or, you know, you miss...and then it definitely goes through the wall..

Oh I know abut that trust me. I just had a huge thread about over penetration in the hand gun forum.

Maestro Pistolero
08-24-2011, 9:54 AM
Yes, but the blanket statement that brandishing is always illegal is plainly false.Point taken, but brandishing in this context has a legal definition that would not be met by a legitimate, justifiable, defensive display of a weapon. So if it meets the legal definition of brandishing, it's always illegal.

goodlookin1
08-24-2011, 2:57 PM
You can simplify this down to a few points:

1) Is the bad guy DOING (or trying to do) something right now that is likely to kill or cause great bodily harm to you or someone else? If not ... call the cops. (Bashing out your headlights doesn't count, bashing in your car window - while you are IN THE CAR - probably does)

2) Assuming that condition #1 is met, can you or the other person run away, drive away or get away somehow so that there is no longer an immediate threat of death or great bodily injury? If so, do so and call the cops to report the incident. (If he's bashing in your car headlights or window ... why aren't you just driving away with a quickness?)

3) If you can't get away ... it's time to bring the thunder. (Don't draw the gun unless you intend fully to use it)

4) You only do whatever is necessary to stop the threat, and no more. If he backs off as you draw your gun ... you don't get to shoot him "just in case". If you shoot him once and he falls down ... stop shooting unless he gets up and/or makes another attempt on you. If he falls down again you don't get to shoot him one more time "so he doesn't get up again", etc.

My personal advice would be not to draw or shoot unless you are willing to go to prison over it. The facts aren't always clear to cops, witnesses, judges and juries, and you could do time for what you personally know was a good shoot.

My personal opinion is that you might be taking this a little too far. I get the feeling that you mean they have to be "in the act" to be justified....with that, I dont necessarily agree. You dont have to wait for someone to start assaulting you before you defend yourself....if someone was running at you with a bat, would you not pull it out until he swung? Certainly not, because that one swing can put you out of the game for good.

Now if you meant that someone was making threats but had not begun to act on it, then I would agree.....Not until they started acting on their threats would I engage. And by "acting on their threats", I mean when they start running at you, pursuing you, swinging at you, making a move towards you in a threatening manner, etc. Essentially, when they have engaged YOU with their actions, then it's time for you to act. Otherwise, keep a level head, be ALERT and AWARE of the situation, watch your six, etc. But dont show 'em your hardware until you are sure they have decided to act on their threats. That is ***reasonably*** when you can expect your peers to believe you acted "reasonably" in using/brandishing your "deadly weapon".

fiddletown
08-24-2011, 4:41 PM
My personal opinion is that you might be taking this a little too far. I get the feeling that you mean they have to be "in the act" to be justified....with that, I dont necessarily agree. You dont have to wait for someone to start assaulting you before you defend yourself........Well, I think that ZT was trying to make it as simple as reasonably possible because it wasn't clear that the OP was getting it. And ZT did a good job of doing that.

I set out a more general statement of the standard in post 7:

...in general, one is justified in using lethal force only when a reasonable and prudent person, in like circumstances and knowing what he knows, would conclude that lethal force was necessary to prevent otherwise immediate, unavoidable death or grave bodily injury to an innocent. And to demonstrate that there was indeed an immediate risk of death or grave bodily injury, one must generally show that the assailant reasonably appeared to --

have the Ability, i. e., the power to deliver force sufficient to cause death or grave bodily harm;
have the Opportunity, i. e., the assailant was capable of immediately deploying such force;
put an innocent in Jeopardy, i. e., the assailant was acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that he has the intent to kill or cripple. and
circumstances Preclude other safe [to the defender] means of avoiding harm....So that doesn't necessarily require that the assailant be "in the act", but it does mean that if you use lethal force, you will need to be able to convincingly articulate exactly why a reasonable and prudent person would have concluded that under the exact circumstances the standard was satisfied and lethal force was justified.

Doing so would be pretty straight forward if you had your back to a wall and the assailant was charging you from 20 feet while swinging an axe at your head. But you won't be able to make your case if you were in your car with room to maneuver. And somewhere between those extremes, it goes from "clearly justified" to "probably not justified."

...That is ***reasonably*** when you can expect your peers to believe you acted "reasonably" in using/brandishing your "deadly weapon".... Your peers will have nothing to do with it.

You'll first need to convince the DA and/or a grand jury. And if that fails, and you're really unlucky, your trial jury will need to believe that you acted reasonably in your use of lethal force.

But there is nothing in the law of the United States that entitles anyone to a jury of his peers. One is entitled to an impartial jury (Constitution, Sixth Amendment); but you have no grounds upon which to insist that members of your jury be from the of the same societal group, age, status, background or education, etc., as you.

diginit
08-24-2011, 5:41 PM
In Ca, You have to run away. If you are cornered or there are no means of escape, or someones' life is immediately endangered, Then you can use lethal force.
If someone is stealing your car, You can't shoot them without going to jail on multiple charges. If you put them under citizens arrest while stating your name,"I, Joe Blow, am putting you under citizens arrest for Grand Theft Auto" preferrably with a creditable witness, You will have much more leeway in court. Even if you shoot out a tire, It will be an illegal discharge of a firearm, Reckless endangerment, or even assault with a deadly weapon. In other words, We're FK'ED! Just give the thief your keys, wallet, daughter, or whatever they want...Then call 911 and wait a half an hour for a cop to fill out a report that will be filed and forgotten...

dantodd
08-24-2011, 5:56 PM
In Ca, You have to run away. If you are cornered or there are no means of escape, or someones' life is immediately endangered, Then you can use lethal force...

this is simply not true. You have no obligation to retreat in CA.

fiddletown
08-24-2011, 7:05 PM
...You have no obligation to retreat in CA.That is correct. On the other hand, if you can avoid a fight and having to use lethal force in self defense, you'll be better off.

If you, for example, shoot someone, even in what you believe to have been justifiable self defense, the incident will be investigated as a crime. You will at least be detained, and you will be interviewed by the police. You will be wise to have the assistance of legal counsel at this point.

So, while represented by legal counsel, you will be interviewed and probably give a statement. And you will want your attorney to make a strong pitch that your use of force was justified.

Now, if everything works out, the DA will agree and you'll ride off into the sunset -- and you'll have a bill from your lawyer. Assuming everything winds up easily at this point, your legal bill will probably be in the neighborhood of $3,000 to $6,000, more or less.

If the DA is inclined, for whatever reason, to want to play hardball and takes the case to the grand jury, you'll wind up paying your lawyer more money -- maybe a total of around $10,000 to $12,000. And of course that's assuming the grand jury doesn't indict.

Now if you're really having a run of bad luck, the grand jury might indict, or the DA will just file charges. Now you'll be going to trial; and your lawyer will be doing a whole lot more work. And now, assuming you win (because you were after all justified) your legal bill, depending on how complicated the case is, could run anywhere from $25,000 to $150,000, or even more.

Then of course, there's always the possibility of a civil suit. California law doesn't provide for civil immunity in the cases of the justified use of force, the way the laws of some State do.

So if you can safely avoid the confrontation, you'll be better off.