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View Full Version : Quick question on legality of this gun, Seen at a major Cali store


mydogsmonkey
08-21-2011, 10:39 PM
I just came back from a major gun store to pick up a gun when I noticed something I've never seen in person before. I thought these were considered AOWs under federal law. It was a AR platform firearm. Had a 11.5" barrel on a pistol with pistol buffer tube, and had a Magpul MOE handguard with a MVG vertical grip. I was under the impression that this was considered a AOW since it had a FVG? Can anyone clarify whether this legally is sold as something I'm not aware of? I did notify management who said with certain overall length and pistol length or something, it was legal. They probably do not have an FFL02/SOT. Let me know. Thanks

mrdd
08-21-2011, 10:52 PM
Does this look like it? It is not a pistol or a rifle under federal law, but it is also not an AOW, due to the OAL. California law considers it a concealable firearm due to the barrel length.

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS.html

HKMadness
08-22-2011, 12:00 AM
Sounds like an ar pistol, as in ak/ar pistols, aow's. Considered pistols or aow with mag outside pg.

Like this?: http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/sbr-aow-pistol.html

NSR500
08-22-2011, 12:03 AM
It is a title 1 long gun.

Kharn
08-22-2011, 1:52 AM
A non-SOT can still sell AOWs, your first year in the business costs $1k (you get a $500 refund if you do less than $250k in NFA-taxable transactions every year) so if you are only going to sell AOWs at $5 transfer tax each you would need to sell two per week to make it worthwhile to pay the SOT tax.

And, how do you know if they have an SOT? The SOT year begins on 1 July so they might have just become one seven weeks ago. That would mean their first inventory might be trickling in from the manufacturers.

mydogsmonkey
08-22-2011, 1:56 AM
A non-SOT can still sell AOWs, your first year in the business costs $1k (you get a $500 refund if you do less than $250k in NFA-taxable transactions every year) so if you are only going to sell AOWs at $5 transfer tax each you would need to sell two per week to make it worthwhile to pay the SOT tax.
Thanks that explains it some

And, how do you know if they have an SOT? The SOT year begins on 1 July so they might have just become one seven weeks ago. That would mean their first inventory might be trickling in from the manufacturers.
I asked them, as I said, I talked to management, the thread is about the legality of the firearm though, not their FFL license
...

freonr22
08-22-2011, 2:00 AM
i wish i was smarter. im trying to understand the atf letter http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

mydogsmonkey
08-22-2011, 2:07 AM
i wish i was smarter. im trying to understand the atf letter http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

i'm thinking its saying that it is disqualified as a pistol because its not fired form one hand. i'm assuming its disqualified as an AOW cause of OAL length but i'm not sure if i've ever seen anything stating a certain OAL considers something concealable or not? I'm guessing i'm missing something here.

mydogsmonkey
08-22-2011, 2:07 AM
Does this look like it? It is not a pistol or a rifle under federal law, but it is also not an AOW, due to the OAL. California law considers it a concealable firearm due to the barrel length.

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS.html

I don't quite get why. I'm searching but I don't see where OAL considers this not an AOW? any links, i'm assuming that it gets around AOW laws by disqualifying itself as a non concealable gun cause of the whole OAL thing? Where does it state what a concealable gun is?

mydogsmonkey
08-22-2011, 2:08 AM
It is a title 1 long gun.

How?

NSR500
08-22-2011, 2:12 AM
How?

http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

mydogsmonkey
08-22-2011, 2:16 AM
http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

What legally defines something as concealable or not?

Kharn
08-22-2011, 2:31 AM
The ATF uses <26" over-all length as the definition of concealable for AOW purposes.

ETA: My 11.5" SBR (removing the buttstock from the tube) is ~27" from the end of the tube to the end of the threads on the barrel, rough approximate as I can't find my measuring tape this morning. So this doesn't even fall into AOW territory.

Quiet
08-22-2011, 6:19 AM
Under Federal laws, the Franklin Armory XO-26 is a Title 1 "other".
Because of it's greater than 26" overall length.
Since it is a Title 1 "other", it can legally have a vertical forward grip installed.

Under CA laws, the Frankling Armory XO-26 is a "handgun".
Because of it's less than 16" barrel length.
Since it is a "handgun", the "assault weapons" laws & approved list apply to it. That's why it is transfered as a single-shot pistol.

What legally defines something as concealable or not?
Under Federal laws, it's any firearm with an overall length less than 26".
Under CA laws, it's any firearm with a barrel length less than 16".

freonr22
08-22-2011, 6:28 AM
can we get a "other" and "aow" flowcharts?

Quiet
08-22-2011, 6:44 AM
can we get a "other" and "aow" flowcharts?

"other" and "AOW" are Federal terms.
"other" = Title 1 firearm
"AOW" = Title 2 firearm


Generally, for CA compliance...

If the "other" has a less than 16" barrel length, then use the handgun flowchart.
If the "other" has a greater than 16" barrel length, then use the rifle or shotgun flowchart (depends if it shoots shotgun shells).
"AOW" use the handgun flowchart.

Tripper
08-22-2011, 7:02 AM
BTW, Franklin has been known to allow you to send them a Pistol Upper, for them to be able to make a pistol with their lowers for you. Just in case some didnt know, that might be an option for purchasing a franklin 'pistol' lower.
then they ship it complete to your ffl, as single shot exempt.

NSR500
08-22-2011, 7:16 AM
Quiet nailed it 100%.

Title 1 "Other" is correct. I borked because I had a migrane last night by calling it a Title 1 Long Gun.

mydogsmonkey
08-22-2011, 8:38 AM
Under Federal laws, the Franklin Armory XO-26 is a Title 1 "other".
Because of it's greater than 26" overall length.
Since it is a Title 1 "other", it can legally have a vertical forward grip installed.

Under CA laws, the Frankling Armory XO-26 is a "handgun".
Because of it's less than 16" barrel length.
Since it is a "handgun", the "assault weapons" laws & approved list apply to it. That's why it is transfered as a single-shot pistol.


Under Federal laws, it's any firearm with an overall length less than 26".
Under CA laws, it's any firearm with a barrel length less than 16".

thank you

franklinarmory
08-22-2011, 9:06 AM
Under Federal laws, the Franklin Armory XO-26 is a Title 1 "other".
Because of it's greater than 26" overall length.
Since it is a Title 1 "other", it can legally have a vertical forward grip installed.

Under CA laws, the Frankling Armory XO-26 is a "handgun".
Because of it's less than 16" barrel length.
Since it is a "handgun", the "assault weapons" laws & approved list apply to it. That's why it is transfered as a single-shot pistol.


Under Federal laws, it's any firearm with an overall length less than 26".
Under CA laws, it's any firearm with a barrel length less than 16".

+1...

Sorry I didn't see this sooner, but it's deer season. :D

Anyhow, Quiet has it exactly right. We petitioned the federal government to allow Franklin Armory to build this configuration because it is similar in form to the existing 1927A5 Thompson, and if the predecessor was legal, then we suggested it should be legal to configure our ARs in a similar fashion. The point with both of the XO-26 and 1927A5 is that you are not going to stick either of these in your long-johns without someone noticing. Since they are not readily concealable, then they couldn't be AOWs. Lucky for us, California did not have a law analogous to the federal AOW regs.

Please check out the videos on the products page noted above to see the recommended firing technique.