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View Full Version : Overall Rifle Length - 26" right?


jink122
08-21-2011, 9:18 PM
I have an AK47, It currently rocks a A2 stock. I'm wondering, a rifle overall length has to be 26". If i remove the stock from the AK it would measure in over 26"

1) Is it legal for me to do so? Use my AK without the stock as long as it measures in over 26"

2) Can i add a folding stock on it now that it measures over 16"

Any words of advice will be helpful! Thank you.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v476/jink122/Screenshot2011-08-21at100912PM.png

leelaw
08-21-2011, 9:28 PM
26" overall.

No buttstock makes it no longer a rifle, it's an AOW.

jink122
08-21-2011, 9:32 PM
So if i buy a folding stock i would be fine based on the fact that its over 26"? Also can i get this stock? I'm thinking no because i remember reading a law that the gun cannot be fireable when folded down?


http://store.colemans.com/cart/images/4143.gif

ke6guj
08-21-2011, 9:36 PM
26" overall.

No buttstock makes it no longer a rifle, it's an AOW.as long as it is over 26", it is not an AOW.

ke6guj
08-21-2011, 9:38 PM
So if i buy a folding stock i would be fine based on the fact that its over 26"? Also can i get this stock? I'm thinking no because i remember reading a law that the gun cannot be fireable when folded down?


http://store.colemans.com/cart/images/4143.gif

you do realize that you also have to comply with the 30" rule, lest it be considered an AW?

jink122
08-21-2011, 9:44 PM
What is the 30" rule?

leelaw
08-21-2011, 9:45 PM
as long as it is over 26", it is not an AOW.

Oops, correct. It'd be a non-rifle, non-concealable firearm, not an AOW.

ke6guj
08-21-2011, 9:46 PM
What is the 30" rule?
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

Santa Cruz Armory
08-21-2011, 9:48 PM
An under/ side folder would be ok if he went with a permanent longer FH to bring it to 30" right?

jink122
08-21-2011, 9:50 PM
So if i can get my rifle to 30" IE with a extended muzzle device, I can have my AK47 without a buttstock? This will comply with all National and Regional Firearms Laws?

Thanks for the help!

jink122
08-21-2011, 10:07 PM
also if i get a 6" muzzle device do i need to have it pinned?

Sgt Raven
08-21-2011, 10:15 PM
also if i get a 6" muzzle device do i need to have it pinned?
No, to make a barrel that is less than 16"(Fed law) you do , but to bring the firearm over 30"(Ca law) you don't.

XDshooter
08-21-2011, 10:26 PM
If you take off the buttstock, it would no longer be a rifle. Therefore, it would only need to be 26" in length to be legal. (Federal Law)

If you change to a folding buttstock, then it would still be a rifle and would need to be 30" with the stock folded. (California Law)

jink122
08-21-2011, 10:49 PM
So I could just remove the buttstock without an issue with California law? As long as it fits in over 26" in overall length? If my AK is no longer a rifle then what would it be with a pistol grip, bullet button and 16" barrel?

mrdd
08-21-2011, 11:30 PM
Once a rifle, always a rifle. A semi automatic, centerfire rifle must be >= 30 inches OAL, else it is an AW under California law. PC 12276.1 (a) (3)

jink122
08-22-2011, 12:06 AM
So the question that it boils down to:

If I take my AK47, remove the buttstock and add a muzzle device which makes my firearm a total of 30 inches in length, Can i do so legally and fire it without hesitation at a range?

Quiet
08-22-2011, 6:23 AM
So the question that it boils down to:

If I take my AK47, remove the buttstock and add a muzzle device which makes my firearm a total of 30 inches in length, Can i do so legally and fire it without hesitation at a range?

Yes, as long as it uses a fixed 10 round magazine.

XDshooter
08-22-2011, 8:13 AM
Once a rifle, always a rifle. A semi automatic, centerfire rifle must be >= 30 inches OAL, else it is an AW under California law. PC 12276.1 (a) (3)


That would never hold up. There are so many rifles that can be fired with the stock removed. Also what about SBR laws? Even more rifles can fire with their stock removed and are less than 26" OAL.

Hell everyone with a 10/22 would be in constructive possession of an SBR IF "once a rifle always a rifle." Take the stock off, it can still fire, and is only ~23" OAL.

12voltguy
08-22-2011, 8:48 AM
That would never hold up. There are so many rifles that can be fired with the stock removed. Also what about SBR laws? Even more rifles can fire with their stock removed and are less than 26" OAL.

Hell everyone with a 10/22 would be in constructive possession of an SBR IF "once a rifle always a rifle." Take the stock off, it can still fire, and is only ~23" OAL.

doing that would be breaking the law, easy enough:facepalm:

Inquirer
08-22-2011, 9:36 AM
That would never hold up. There are so many rifles that can be fired with the stock removed. Also what about SBR laws? Even more rifles can fire with their stock removed and are less than 26" OAL.

Hell everyone with a 10/22 would be in constructive possession of an SBR IF "once a rifle always a rifle." Take the stock off, it can still fire, and is only ~23" OAL.

S.B.R. = Short Barreled Rifle. So if you pulled the stock off the 10/22 it wouldn't be an SBR because its barrel is still 16+ inches long.

To my knowledge you only become an NFA weapon if, when you remove the stock, your OAL (Overall Length) drops to below 26", assuming you have a 16" barrel. However even if your OAL with the stock detached is, say, 27", this is still an assault weapon in California, because our laws state that a semiautomatic centerfire rifle has to have an OAL of at least 30".

As long as your AK is longer than 30" with the stock folded, you're still okay in the eyes of California law, i.e., folding stock but 4" muzzle brake.

IANAL, but hopefully this helps.

--Inq

mrdd
08-22-2011, 10:26 AM
That would never hold up. There are so many rifles that can be fired with the stock removed. Also what about SBR laws? Even more rifles can fire with their stock removed and are less than 26" OAL.

Hell everyone with a 10/22 would be in constructive possession of an SBR IF "once a rifle always a rifle." Take the stock off, it can still fire, and is only ~23" OAL.

What would never hold up? The AW violation in PC 12276.1 (a) (3)?

I don't know about the SBR issue with the 10/22. Remember though, California legally only has long guns and concealable firearms. There is no "other" category as in federal law.

awall919
08-22-2011, 10:43 AM
[/QUOTE]Hell everyone with a 10/22 would be in constructive possession of an SBR IF "once a rifle always a rifle." Take the stock off, it can still fire, and is only ~23" OAL.[/QUOTE]


aren't rimfire rifles exempt from this? Not sure so I have to ask. I assumed that only applied to centerfire rifles? If someone could clarify I would appreciate it.

mrdd
08-22-2011, 10:53 AM
S.B.R. = Short Barreled Rifle. So if you pulled the stock off the 10/22 it wouldn't be an SBR because its barrel is still 16+ inches long.

To my knowledge you only become an NFA weapon if, when you remove the stock, your OAL (Overall Length) drops to below 26", assuming you have a 16" barrel. However even if your OAL with the stock detached is, say, 27", this is still an assault weapon in California, because our laws state that a semiautomatic centerfire rifle has to have an OAL of at least 30".

As long as your AK is longer than 30" with the stock folded, you're still okay in the eyes of California law, i.e., folding stock but 4" muzzle brake.

IANAL, but hopefully this helps.

--Inq

Actually, the California SBR laws are not written that way.

12020. (c) (2) As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of
the following:
(A) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in
length.
(B) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(C) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an
overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less
than 16 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed
cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in
subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to
convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C),
inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in
subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, may be readily assembled if
those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same
person.

I don't have an answer for why possessing a legal 10/22 would not put you in constructive possession of an SBR, if removing the stock leaves it functional and the OAL is less than 26 inches. Perhaps someone with real knowledge of the SBR laws can comment.

Perhaps this is just another way the California weapon laws are messed up. Remember, a baseball bat is considered a weapon under our laws. Lots of people own those.

XDshooter
08-22-2011, 11:23 AM
SO, Federal Law says once a rifle, NOT ALWAYSa rifle. Clear in this regard. 10/22 would not be a short barrel rifle with stock removed. It would become simply a Title 1 firearm.

California Law on the other hand words SBR's differently, so pretty much possession of many 22LR rifles is constructive possession of an SBR. 10/22's and AR-15/22's for sure. 16" barrels.

Also, you can never remove the stock of many centerfire semi-auto rifles in California (such as AK's since they still fire with the stock removed) without creating an unreg'd assault rifle. You'd have to remove the bolt or something else to make the rifle non-functional.

In conclusion, either the SBR laws are creating a ton of Felons in California, or this interpretation is not correct.


WTF? Definitely need some input from the big dogs here.

jink122
08-22-2011, 12:45 PM
Just bought a 5" muzzle device for my 16" barrel. :) I'll post some pics. This will make my rifle 31" in overall length once i remove the stock.

ke6guj
08-22-2011, 12:56 PM
That would never hold up. There are so many rifles that can be fired with the stock removed. Also what about SBR laws? Even more rifles can fire with their stock removed and are less than 26" OAL.

Hell everyone with a 10/22 would be in constructive possession of an SBR IF "once a rifle always a rifle." Take the stock off, it can still fire, and is only ~23" OAL.
take the wooden stock off of an UZI rifle (no tools required) and if you have an SBR if it has a 16" barrel. OAL of that would be around 24". But, with the metal folder, it was still 26" OAL and legal. So, UZI made it so that you had to use tools to remove the wooden stock, and that was OK. the other option they had was to put an 18" barrel on it and then you could have a detachable wooden stock and not have an SBR.

gemini1
08-22-2011, 6:47 PM
Wait, I'm getting confused. Is'nt the 26" OAL applies to rimfire while centerfire requires 30" OAL?
Can someone clarify pls?

dantodd
08-22-2011, 7:20 PM
So the question that it boils down to:

If I take my AK47, remove the buttstock and add a muzzle device which makes my firearm a total of 30 inches in length, Can i do so legally and fire it without hesitation at a range?

Yes, as long as it uses a fixed 10 round magazine.

I am sure that I am missing something but aren't bullet buttons only required on Center fire rifles and pistols with evil features which would otherwise make it a banned semi-automatic firearm?

jwkincal
08-22-2011, 7:25 PM
I am sure that I am missing something but aren't bullet buttons only required on Center fire rifles and pistols with evil features which would otherwise make it a banned semi-automatic firearm?

IIRC, pistol with magwell not in grip = evil...

ke6guj
08-22-2011, 7:30 PM
Wait, I'm getting confused. Is'nt the 26" OAL applies to rimfire while centerfire requires 30" OAL?
Can someone clarify pls?



CA law says that any rifle <26" is an SBR, rimfire and centerfire.
CA law says that any semi-automatic centerfire rifle <30" is an AW.

mrdd
08-22-2011, 8:51 PM
I stand by my statement "Once a rifle, always a rifle". According to PC 12020 (c) (2), you cannot make a concealable weapon out of a rifle. If you cut down the barrel below 16 inches or change any part of the rifle such that it is made less than 26 inches in OAL, you have made an SBR.

dantodd
08-22-2011, 11:26 PM
IIRC, pistol with magwell not in grip = evil...

Yes but a title 1 "other" that has a barrel over 16" isn't a pistol and isn't a rifle. What statute says it must have a bullet button?

Meplat
08-23-2011, 3:56 AM
This whole thing was confusing enough and then some genius had to mix in a 10-22!?!?


I am sure that I am missing something but aren't bullet buttons only required on Center fire rifles and pistols with evil features which would otherwise make it a banned semi-automatic firearm?

Quiet
08-23-2011, 6:16 AM
Yes but a title 1 "other" that has a barrel over 16" isn't a pistol and isn't a rifle. What statute says it must have a bullet button?

This has been brought up before (about 2-3 years ago) and people have been told to "hush" and not push the issue due it may cause additional legal headaches/roadblocks for the plan to take down the CA AWBs.






Technically...
A Title 1 "other" with a >16" barrel & >26" OAL does not meet the legal definition of a rifle or handgun or shotgun, therefore the semi-auto firearm ban rules would not apply to it.

However, if the firearm started as a rifle (as in the OP's case), the semi-auto rifle ban rules still apply to it.

yelohamr
08-23-2011, 8:56 AM
Just call the police non-emergency number, the dispatcher will tell you what you need to know.:D

Meplat
08-23-2011, 2:40 PM
Just call the police non-emergency number, the dispatcher will tell you what you need to know.:D

:rofl:[

XDshooter
08-23-2011, 2:50 PM
Technically...
A Title 1 "other" with a >16" barrel & >26" OAL does not meet the legal definition of a rifle or handgun or shotgun, therefore the semi-auto firearm ban rules would not apply to it.

However, if the firearm started as a rifle (as in the OP's case), the semi-auto rifle ban rules still apply to it.


This is what I wanted to get at. Neither rifle nor handgun, so AW laws don't apply.

Who's gonna build a non-rifle/handgun from an 80 percent and drop mags with a pistol grip? 16" Barrel, buffer tube only.

Test case anyone? CGF should file a lawsuit now. This lawsuit would also bring CA laws into alignment with FED laws regarding rifle -> non-rifle -> rifle -> etc. I THINK. Not sure about the last part.


DO IT!

Quiet
08-23-2011, 2:54 PM
Test case anyone? CGF should file a lawsuit now.

DO IT!
AFAIK...
Some of the people in CGF are the ones saying don't do it, cause you might muck up what's already in the works.

XDshooter
08-23-2011, 3:00 PM
AFAIK...
Some of the people in CGF are the ones saying don't do it, cause you might muck up what's already in the works.

Not offering myself. That would be reckless. Just filing suit on the matter is better. No one should ever have to be a test case for laws to be changed.

Either way, whatever is in the works. This is a separate issue from AW laws regarding non-rifles.

dantodd
08-23-2011, 6:01 PM
However, if the firearm started as a rifle (as in the OP's case), the semi-auto rifle ban rules still apply to it.

I don't think this is true in CA. I known that a handgun is federally a handgun once it is mfg'd and is always a handgun, this is the basis for the recent handgun>rifle>handgun ruling.

But CA law defines handguns, rifles and shotguns ONLY by their configuration, except for the SBR and SBS laws.

dantodd
08-23-2011, 6:02 PM
This is what I wanted to get at. Neither rifle nor handgun, so AW laws don't apply.

Who's gonna build a non-rifle/handgun from an 80 percent and drop mags with a pistol grip? 16" Barrel, buffer tube only.

Test case anyone? CGF should file a lawsuit now. This lawsuit would also bring CA laws into alignment with FED laws regarding rifle -> non-rifle -> rifle -> etc. I THINK. Not sure about the last part.


DO IT!

Too many irons in the fire already. These are enough of a corner case that I can't see them dealing with it until there's not much left to do.

diginit
08-24-2011, 5:29 PM
An AK underfolder with a 16" barrel measures 25" when folded. 1 FK'en inch short of legal. That is why AK builders weld or pin the rear stock open. With a longer barrel, Like on a Dragonoff, you would be OK to build it as a folder. But a BB still would be required (only in Ca.) because of the pistol grip and folding stock. 10 rnd mags only. Pin the stock and dump the pistol grip and you could use your preban 30's legally without the BB.
Thanks to our lawmaking idiots atempting to lead the nation while CA is falling too far behind to ever dig our way out.