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taperxz
08-20-2011, 11:38 AM
After reading a previous thread I did a little search to find that there are quite a few pro 2A groups across the state and more specifically, the nation.

I have also seen snips of favoring or disliking some of the big 2a groups.

In my opinion, it's great to see so many involved. Whether it be actual work, writing a check, or contributing to this and other forums, and to throw out ideas for the "right people" to use. (and they do use some of it!!)

What is now disappointing is the special interest, self serving political ideas that are now coming to fruition within some of these groups/clubs/forums.

Why is it so hard to simply fight for our second amendment rights without pushing an individuals special interest along with it?

Why is it so hard for groups like SAF and NRA to really support each other? CGF and open carry groups? CPRA has even been controversial or dormant to some and a coup appears to be taking place as we speak. I personally have my own preference of orgs to support as most do. What ever happened to divided we fall?



OR! Is it all about Money, Power, and a race to be the first across the finish line

MountainMike
08-20-2011, 12:08 PM
Unless I completely misunderstood the purpose of your topic it appears you are promoting idea that a single national 2A rights organization would be superior to the hundreds of organizations we currently have. You go on to cite many of these organizations founder to special interests.

I argue the very example you give is the principal proponent against central planning. I make it a point to always remember no matter how altruistic someone's goals and intent are everyone is corruptible. Having several organizations in which to chose to support is a good thing. Free market principals dictate that the best group will succeed where others will fail.

You also state a lack of support between the NRA and SAF. Again, I challenge your hypothesis. The fact is these and many other groups often cooperate with each other. Disagreement between groups will not go away.

taperxz
08-20-2011, 12:14 PM
Not making accusations! Just an observing statement.

This is not aimed at any organization!! I am on an iPad and wanted to change a thing or two in my OP but am having a little iPad resistance.

One of my main concerns is tacking on a groups "special interests" to the 2a fight.

BanjoGunner
08-20-2011, 12:47 PM
I do not see the small, special-interest-based 2A groups in the same light as you apparently do. Their goal is to reach out to others in their own communities, not necessarily everyone in the larger 2A community.

I understand this because I personally find it is much easier, and I can be far more effective, when I reach out to others with whom I already share a number of things/interests in common beyond 2A. It doesn't mean I have lost sight of the larger goals, or the larger group, just that I am targeting my efforts towards those I am more likely to hold sway with.

taperxz
08-20-2011, 12:55 PM
I do not see the small, special-interest-based 2A groups in the same light as you apparently do. Their goal is to reach out to others in their own communities, not necessarily everyone in the larger 2A community.

I understand this because I personally find it is much easier, and I can be far more effective, when I reach out to others with whom I already share a number of things/interests in common beyond 2A. It doesn't mean I have lost sight of the larger goals, or the larger group, just that I am targeting my efforts towards those I am more likely to hold sway with.

I think it's great to be with and share like minded interests. What I don't want to see is a groups agenda being pushed in a manipulative way for support of the 2a. Especially for other rights, fund raising, or political posturing for other varying reasons.

OleCuss
08-20-2011, 1:12 PM
There is history and different sets of goals behind some of these groups.

For instance, did you know that the NRA once promoted much of the gun control legislation to which we/it now object? It took a virtual coup within the organization to set it onto the much better path it now follows. But still, the NRA does not have the laser-like focus on second amendment rights that SAF has (and I'm not even saying that it should - it has a number of functions).

Here in California the organizations which are probably most important are CGF, CRPA, and the Madison Society.

CGF is very litigious and a delight to watch. It cannot and will not engage in political activity - not legally structured so that it can.

CRPA is sort of the California branch of the NRA (sorry for the inadequate description) and is thus structured so that it can engage in political activity.

And yup, CRPA has been sort of restructured recently and is turning out to be a very worthy organization which closely coordinates with CGF.

I don't claim to fully understand the Madison Society. It seems to be a superbly focused organization and a credit to liberty - but I don't know how well it actually works or coordinates.

But increasingly you find that the organizations are friendly and cooperative. Sort of like having CRPA saying "I'll hit 'em high" and CGF saying "I'll hit 'em low" kind of thing. But on this one the NRA tends to fall a bit flat at times - takes too much responsibility for some wins and sometimes takes litigation tracks that are arguably injurious.

But while I've got some issues with the NRA, understand that without them we're all lost. Without SAF we're lost. We need 'em all (with, IMHO, the exception of Gun Owners of America/GOA).

G60
08-20-2011, 1:17 PM
Unless I completely misunderstood the purpose of your topic.

He's upset about the Pink Pistols and thinks groups like them should not exist.

taperxz
08-20-2011, 1:25 PM
He's upset about the Pink Pistols and thinks groups like them should not exist.

NO! That is not my opinion.

Perhaps it would be wise of you to not guess what others are thinking.

wildhawker
08-20-2011, 1:41 PM
Things are better now than they've ever been.

CGF, CGN, and open carry folks have been working closely together. I'm quite certain that will continue into the future.

Half of the CRPA Board of Directors are CGF board members and core volunteers. Yes, CRPA is going to be changing - for the better - because our members demand it, and because that is what is best for the organization and our cause.

NRA does great work by and through Ed Worley, who spearheads the legislative lobbying work in Sacramento, and who's helped Tom Pederson become a great liaison and 1-2 punch.

Most hatchets have already been buried; maybe we have a few more we need to take care of, on the margins, but the level of cooperation, sharing, and support is extraordinarily improved in contrast to just 24 months ago.

We all have different roles and interests; consolidation takes away from that. Good communication and cooperation, however, go a long way to helping our community achieve its goals.

-Brandon

After reading a previous thread I did a little search to find that there are quite a few pro 2A groups across the state and more specifically, the nation.

I have also seen snips of favoring or disliking some of the big 2a groups.

In my opinion, it's great to see so many involved. Whether it be actual work, writing a check, or contributing to this and other forums, and to throw out ideas for the "right people" to use. (and they do use some of it!!)

What is now disappointing is the special interest, self serving political ideas that are now coming to fruition within some of these groups/clubs/forums.

Why is it so hard to simply fight for our second amendment rights without pushing an individuals special interest along with it?

Why is it so hard for groups like SAF and NRA to really support each other? CGF and open carry groups? CPRA has even been controversial or dormant to some and a coup appears to be taking place as we speak. I personally have my own preference of orgs to support as most do. What ever happened to divided we fall?



OR! Is it all about Money, Power, and a race to be the first across the finish line

taperxz
08-20-2011, 2:30 PM
Good to hear Brandon. Sometimes when you are asked to read between the lines, I sometimes get mixed messages. SAF v NRA and so on.

I think it's human nature to win theses battles! Depending on the cost. Kinda like two drill sergeants competing to see who can train a better group of soldiers.

In the end we are all for the same cause. Keeping other political causes or agendas is important for a victory IMHO

hoffmang
08-20-2011, 4:35 PM
Some of the differences you see are in strategy and expertise. SAF decided to back Alan Gura (who was going to litigate his cases with or without any "backer.") He is a litigator's litigator and a former California Deputy Attorney General and counsel to the Judiciary Committee in congress. Around him has been built a couple of litigation networks.

NRA is at heart a training and lobbying organization. That leads to certain ways of seeing the world that mean litigators tactics and strategies are seen as "dangerous" or "unfriendly." Good litigators aren't always the guy you want to mediate a dispute or even have a beer with.

Why CGF has opposed UOC is that it is poor strategy on the other side. There is an eye of a needle we need to thread to expand the size of the needle wide enough such that what the UOCers want is easy.

-Gene

taperxz
08-20-2011, 6:59 PM
Thanks again! I like the logic and the answers.

JMO but it's good to know the direction an org you support is going.

X 1000 for Alan Gura! That is a no brainer.

jdberger
08-20-2011, 9:16 PM
Finally, there are some organizations where it's hard, if not impossible, to figure out what their goals are.

The American Hunters and Shooters Association was one. At first they were billed as an alternative to the "hard line" advocated by the NRA. It later appeared that they were simply an astro-turf project set up to legitimize certain Brady Campaign legislative proposals and assuage fears of gun owners that Obama was a 2A opponent.

The National Association for Gun Rights is another shill organization who's sole purposes appear to be raising money and criticizing the NRA (in that order).

gunsmith
08-21-2011, 5:05 PM
Some of the differences you see are in strategy and expertise. SAF decided to back Alan Gura (who was going to litigate his cases with or without any "backer.") He is a litigator's litigator and a former California Deputy Attorney General and counsel to the Judiciary Committee in congress. Around him has been built a couple of litigation networks.

NRA is at heart a training and lobbying organization. That leads to certain ways of seeing the world that mean litigators tactics and strategies are seen as "dangerous" or "unfriendly." Good litigators aren't always the guy you want to mediate a dispute or even have a beer with.

Why CGF has opposed UOC is that it is poor strategy on the other side. There is an eye of a needle we need to thread to expand the size of the needle wide enough such that what the UOCers want is easy.

-Gene

I do not drink but would certainly drink a cold beverage with Alan Gura anyday!

DeanW66
08-23-2011, 1:29 AM
We need 'em all (with, IMHO, the exception of Gun Owners of America/GOA).

Anybody care to elaborate on GOA/GOC? I've definitely gotten the feeling they are not liked around here but I've failed to find a reason why. I am asking purely out of curiosity with no knowledge so please don't blast me.

jdberger
08-23-2011, 10:55 AM
A comprehensive list of GOA's legislative and legal accomplishments are below:

.

There was another statement a while back by Larry Pratt (GOA) in which he decided that some folks have rights worth protecting, but others didn't. He didn't think that Resident Aliens should be allowed to purchase guns for self defense.

On another front, this is why we ignore groups like NAGR... (http://www.examiner.com/political-buzz-in-phoenix/gun-rights-activists-on-the-defense-now-is-the-time-to-strike)

Funtimes
08-23-2011, 11:15 AM
Side question: Which of these organizations are 501.c3's? I know CGF, SAF, NRA Foundation are. I'm trying to compile a list for the IRS lady to look at (by her request) so she can compare their documents to ours in Hawaii.

hoffmang
08-23-2011, 10:50 PM
Side question: Which of these organizations are 501.c3's? I know CGF, SAF, NRA Foundation are. I'm trying to compile a list for the IRS lady to look at (by her request) so she can compare their documents to ours in Hawaii.

That and the NRA Civil Defense Fund are your core list.

Most of the rest are 501(c)(4)'s.

-Gene

Funtimes
08-23-2011, 11:03 PM
That and the NRA Civil Defense Fund are your core list.

Most of the rest are 501(c)(4)'s.

-Gene

Ahhh, thanks Gene! I forgot about NRA Foundation and NRA CDF being separate.

DeanW66
08-24-2011, 1:43 AM
A comprehensive list of GOA's legislative and legal accomplishments are below:

.

There was another statement a while back by Larry Pratt (GOA) in which he decided that some folks have rights worth protecting, but others didn't. He didn't think that Resident Aliens should be allowed to purchase guns for self defense.

On another front, this is why we ignore groups like NAGR... (http://www.examiner.com/political-buzz-in-phoenix/gun-rights-activists-on-the-defense-now-is-the-time-to-strike)

Thanks for the reply.