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Paladin
08-17-2011, 7:24 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2026433/London-riots-Teenager-16-killed-Richard-Mannington-Bowes-single-punch.html

Abstract: During the London riots of 2011, a 16 y.o. BG punched a 68 y.o. GG who was trying to put out a fire. A single blow to the head caused the GG to fall down and hit his head and never recover. After 3 days he was taken off of life support.

Over the past 2 or 3 years I've been reading more about these incidents. (E.g., there was that Asian father who confronted his son's attackers in Emeryville/Oakland a year or so ago. Punch to head -> KO -> head to curb -> brain dead....)

Assuming the GG was carrying, is proving being in fear of your life a question of fact for a jury?

From the pics in the linked story, the BG looks reasonably "big," but you can't tell from the head photo how big the GG was, so the issue of disparity of force may or may not be valid. Plus, if all it takes is 1 lucky punch to KO you, the size of the BG may not be that relevant: skill, speed, experience, etc are all vital factors other than "disparity of force."

How many examples of this are necessary before we get out of our culture the idea that a fist fight w/a total stranger (who may kick us in our heads when we're down), does NOT put one's life at stake? (rhetorical Q, but important since jurors will have likely been influenced by Hollywood and the general culture. See "6 Deadly Injuries You Think You'd Survive (Thanks to Movies)" at Cracked.com
http://www.cracked.com/article_18862_6-deadly-injuries-you-think-youd-survive-thanks-to-movies.html#ixzz1VLbld6EP)

So, when a BG approaches you looking to start a fist fight, can you draw your HG right away or must you go to it H2H for awhile (assuming he doesn't get in that lucky punch first), before you can use deadly force?

Stonewalker
08-17-2011, 7:29 PM
I have often wondered this same question. The truth is, one very small person who is well-trained can kill you with a few blows to the neck/head. These blows can come totally unannounced. My take on this is that anybody potentially poses a threat on life. You can't know how skilled a person is. You can't even know if they are armed or not. Heck, a random lucky punch to the face can kill you.

If I controlled everything, King Luke would decree that anybody who felt threatened could draw a handgun if they felt fear for their life, no matter what size their potential attacker was or how armed they were.

nrakid88
08-17-2011, 7:38 PM
This has always been my take on things... Its why I have never been in a fight either.

They are easy to avoid, and you can usually see them coming.

Guns are for when there are no other choice, and I won't be throwing punches at someone unless I am not carrying a gun, or my firearm majorly malfunctions.

You mess with the bull, you get the horns. Simple concept, I won't let any jack *** mess with my life, loved ones, or health.

nrakid88
08-17-2011, 7:39 PM
****, if a midget wouldn't leave me alone and started coming at me with fists clenched or any other sign of attack, I would pull a pistol out. I don't discriminate, attack me, you get the horns.

mag360
08-17-2011, 7:42 PM
no court has said you need to get your *** beat before you can respond with deadly force. You just have to be in fear of your life.

CaliforniaLiberal
08-17-2011, 7:45 PM
Using Deadly Force in Self Defense is only reasonable when you are in fear of your life or great bodily harm. If you are in this situations a District Attorney may make the judgement that you used reasonable force and not file charges. If charges are filed a jury will decide if your actions are reasonable.


See California Firearms Laws 2007 booklet

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

Go to pages 27 and 28


Use of a Firearm or Other Deadly Force in Defense of Life and Body

The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist the attempt to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a reasonable person in the same or similar situation would believe that (a) the person killed intended to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime; (b) there was imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the person acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself or herself or another from death or a forcible and life-threatening crime. Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes.

Disparity of force is one factor considered when deciding what is a reasonable response. If you are a 6'8" tall 25 year old being attacked by a empty handed 12 year old girl a jury might decide that you were not reasonably in fear of your life.


http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/index.php

Paladin
08-17-2011, 7:46 PM
You can't know how skilled a person is. You can't even know if they are armed or not. Heck, a random lucky punch to the face can kill you.Worth repeating.

Also, it is not only that a "lucky punch" can kill you, but that if you get knocked out, you'll likely fall down and hit your head and that can kill/coma/paralyze/etc you.

Related: once you are KO'ed, even if you survive the fall, you are TOTALLY at the mercy of the BG re. whether he follows up w/kicks or punches to your head or grabs your head and smashes it against the ground/asphalt/concrete.

Paladin
08-17-2011, 7:51 PM
Disparity of force is one factor considered when deciding what is a reasonable response. If you are a 6'8" tall 25 year old being attacked by a empty handed 12 year old girl a jury might decide that you were not reasonably in fear of your life.Such things are rarely so clean cut. I've seen many smaller street thugs beat larger GGs who aren't fighters, not to mention the much more common larger BG attacks on smaller GGs.

Mainly this thread is to get out (again!) info re unarmed combat being potentially deadly and NOT because of some magical "blow that can kill," but because if you get knocked out, the odds are very good you'll fall and hit your head and THAT can kill/coma/paralyze/etc.

Since this will probably be a jury question (re reasonable fear), we've got to get out to "our peers" that getting KO'ed is NOT like in the movies (see the link I posted above) and that deadly force is reasonable to avoid getting KO'ed and the injuries that may involve.

gunsmith
08-17-2011, 7:54 PM
I cleared leather after I got bumped by a guy looking to provoke a fight here in NV.
The cops were mighty upset but I loudly asked bystanders to call the cops & was even recorded by 911 dispatch asking witnesses to call 911, & the guy was a foot taller & much heavier then I and clearly used to intimidating people. I spent hours with the police with them trying to get me to admit that I was at fault and threatening to kill the guy but in the end I prevailed - they let me go and were very unhappy doing so.

I knew the law, the guy got out of his car walked a half block to me, push/bumped me, threatened me & was twice my size and I have had knee surgery making running away difficult. I kept my story simple and short, he was bigger/I was in fear of my life/I couldn't escape.

The cops were extremely unhappy to have to let me go

voiceofreason
08-17-2011, 8:00 PM
Also, it is not only that a "lucky punch" can kill you, but that if you get knocked out, you'll likely fall down and hit your head and that can kill/coma/paralyze/etc you.


+1

People die from their head hitting the ground all the time. Concrete meets skull at speed, brain crashes into skull... never good, sometimes fatal.

CaliforniaLiberal
08-17-2011, 8:01 PM
Such things are rarely so clean cut. I've seen many smaller street thugs beat larger GGs who aren't fighters, not to mention the much more common larger BG attacks on smaller GGs.

Mainly this thread is to get out (again!) info re unarmed combat being potentially deadly and NOT because of some magical "blow that can kill," but because if you get knocked out, the odds are very good you'll fall and hit your head and THAT can kill/coma/paralyze/etc.


I completely agree that things are almost never clean cut. Always messy, always impossible to predict before hand the outcome of violent encounters.

But a DA or the opposing lawyer in a law suit is paid to make things seem a certain way to a jury. After the fact, in a calm, quiet courtroom. So these 12 people who weren't there when it all came down get to judge if your actions were reasonable and how you live the rest of your life hangs in the balance.

So defend your life with force only when there are no alternatives and when the need arises, get the very best lawyer you can to defend your life in the courtroom.

blazeaglory
08-17-2011, 8:09 PM
Exactly. Just because the BG receives more injuries cops automatically assume the the GG was the attacker.

Plus the masses seem the think that reporters tell the truth and that what they say is somehow the bottom line.

Petro6golf
08-17-2011, 8:13 PM
I think it depends. We were told a story in the academy about an off duty bay area cop that was in sf with his girlfriend on a dinner date, a homeless guy started yelling at him and acosting him. I guess the cop and gf ignored the guy and tried to walk around him, the homeless guy punched the cop in the face, the cop fell down and started to black out, as he was passing out he shot and killed the homeless guy. His defense was that he was about to black out and knew he had a gun on him and feared for his life the the homeless guy would either keep attacking him or get his gun. It was said that the homeless guy was a really big guy and the cop was fairly small in stature. He was never prosecuted and it was a justified good shoot.

Window_Seat
08-17-2011, 8:31 PM
One factor that hasn't been mentioned here is the fact that some individuals are at additional risk because of past injuries/concussions that could result in serious trauma and/or brain damage or death if a person is injured again.

I can recall watching a documentary on Ch. 9 (KQED) where a football player had quite a bad concussion, and was told "not to have anymore concussions, or else"...

So how do they stand on SD when it comes to fists, which could cause death? Does that person carry around with them their medical records and a doctor's note that says "My patient is at an additional amount of risk due to past concussions"? Can such be considered good cause for issuance of a LTC? Why not?

Erik.

Maestro Pistolero
08-17-2011, 8:38 PM
It's always good to have more than one force option when carrying a gun. It doesn't mean you'll have time to deploy it, but you might. Just having pepper spray on your person shows that your first intention was not just to shoot.

SJgunguy24
08-17-2011, 9:03 PM
Worth repeating.

Also, it is not only that a "lucky punch" can kill you, but that if you get knocked out, you'll likely fall down and hit your head and that can kill/coma/paralyze/etc you.

Related: once you are KO'ed, even if you survive the fall, you are TOTALLY at the mercy of the BG re. whether he follows up w/kicks or punches to your head or grabs your head and smashes it against the ground/asphalt/concrete.

Yep, look at Bryan Stow. The Giants fan who was attacked at Dodgers stadium, those guys kept kicking him while he was out cold on the ground. The same thing happened to a freind of mine back in March, sucker punched and his head hit the concrete. Then the guy did a rain dance on his head. He wad left for dead, someone spotted him and called the police, he didn't make it.

Window_Seat
08-17-2011, 9:44 PM
...
The same thing happened to a freind of mine back in March, sucker punched and his head hit the concrete. Then the guy did a rain dance on his head. He wad left for dead, someone spotted him and called the police, he didn't make it.

Very sorry to hear about your friend not making it. :( Did they catch whoever committed the crime?

This is why a "Model Castle Doctrine" law needs to be adopted, but that's just a pipe dream here in CA, unless people begin to vote like they should, but that's just a pipe dream as well. Maybe that dude I argued with the other day who said "only land owners should be allowed to vote"... There I go again...:rolleyes:

Erik.

SJgunguy24
08-17-2011, 10:39 PM
Very sorry to hear about your friend not making it. :( Did they catch whoever committed the crime?

This is why a "Model Castle Doctrine" law needs to be adopted, but that's just a pipe dream here in CA, unless people begin to vote like they should, but that's just a pipe dream as well. Maybe that dude I argued with the other day who said "only land owners should be allowed to vote"... There I go again...:rolleyes:

Erik.

Yes, he admitted to everything. My freind was trying to get his life back together and this POS stomps him out.

Dhena81
08-17-2011, 11:40 PM
Fighting in the street does have its risks you need to be extremely aware of your surroundings and move somewhere you won't be run over or tripped up. Almost every street fight I've seen or been in someone will trip on something or crush someones car. I have MMA training and its a lot different fighting on a mat vs asphalt or concrete its much harder :D.


I'm just glad people don't talk to each other in the real world like they do on the web you would need to always wear gloves. The last thing I would want to do is get in a fight with someone while I was CC'ing stuff happens I guess. I really don't think I would have the guts to shoot someone for punching me and in my opinion 99.9% of the time its easy to avoid a fight. For example be aware of people looking for a fight and leaving before its directed at you and by not getting angry yourself if someone is talking crap easier said than done.

caoboy
08-17-2011, 11:43 PM
Don't bring a gun to a bomb fight! (30 mins or less trailer lol)

Anchors
08-18-2011, 2:48 AM
I've seen people severely beat by an unarmed attacker/attackers to the point of coma/permanent brain damage.
If someone was trying to fight me (which rarely happens now that I've grown up and learned to swallow my pride), I would try to run.
Only if I couldn't run and was being physically assaulted would I escalate force.

"Disparity of force" as it is commonly applied is BS.
Size doesn't matter. I'm a big dude (6'2" - 220 pounds) and pretty capable of handling myself, yet I still know guys that are 5'4" and even girls that would literally mop the floor with me and probably TWO "mes".
Don't assume just because some angry little fella with "short guy syndrome" is yelling at your knees that he isn't capable of putting you in the hospital with his bare hands.
This guy was in the right because the one dude started advancing toward the girl violently, but my point is he was smaller than the other two guys and knocked them both out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-oo2lZgPuY

Havoc70
08-18-2011, 5:18 AM
See, herein lies my concern. I'm 6'10" and 320 pounds and when I get my LTC, this is going to be front of my mind. I know that someone smaller than me can kick my ***, I'm not really much of a fighter. You wouldn't know it to look at me, but the VA has me at 20% disabled due to neck, back, shoulder and knee injuries sustained in the military. However, try selling that to a jury that a guy as big as me was in fear for his life from someone 6'0 and even 200 pounds. I like the pepper spray idea, start with less than lethal and if it still goes on, escalate.

However, one thing I do have is situational awareness and since my last fight was back in 1992, I think I'm doing pretty good. If someone is drunk and comes up to me at a bar and says they could probably kick my ***, I just laugh and say "Yah, you probably could." and ignore them. Works every time.

iareConfusE
08-18-2011, 5:35 AM
I've always brought this up as a cause for concern when people discuss legitimate reasons for having to pull out a gun. I say again, I'm 5'10", REALLY lightweight at only 140lbs. I imagine that a single heavy blow to the head delivered by a larger guy would have me knocked out instantly, possibly even killed. I tell people that in this scenario (Calgunners), I would probably meet their deadly fists with my deadly handgun, yet I still get called a murderer by people because they tell me it's a disparity of force.

I honestly don't think it's reasonable for me to have to wait to wake up from being blacked out before I start defending myself.

Avoiding confrontation is one thing, but when if you can't get out of it and the person or persons just keep harrassing you until something happens? I've brought this scenario up several times on this forum, and I've been called unreasonable for wanting to use a firearm for self defense in these situations. I seriously don't see why. Potentially deadly force should be met with potentially deadly force.

tgriffin
08-18-2011, 5:52 AM
6'10" holy jeebus Havoc. I have enough trouble at around 6'2".... Yikes. Yes you are going to have a bit new burden showing GC to defend yourself, especially against unarmed attackers. Everyone, however, is the same size once on the ground.

Oceanbob
08-18-2011, 6:03 AM
+1

People die from their head hitting the ground all the time. Concrete meets skull at speed, brain crashes into skull... never good, sometimes fatal.

This.^^^

These head tramas never recover in some people. They end up with a life of seizures, mini-strokes, double-vision, constant ringing in the ears, constant headaches, neck pain, nerve damage that won't allow you a good nights sleep.

It's never like the movies; head injuries are life threatening and life changing.

Being a middle aged guy, I will stop an attach on me by any means at my disposal.

I would retreat from a couple of aggressive thugs as far as I could. Including my car; but if I felt I couldn't go any farther, Mr. Glock would take over.

Untamed1972
08-18-2011, 7:54 AM
Remember........the justification is "fear for your life OR GREAT BODILY INJURY"

So I do think an apparent disparity of potential force (young person against old person for example) could easily justify fear of GBI. But even iwth fairly evenly matched opponents I dont think it's a stretch to see that someone who is intent on engaging in physical combat with you has intent to cause you injury, especially if they are attacking you unprovoked. I dont think you should have to wait till you're in the midst of the physical attack to try and determine how much injury they intend to inflict on you.

MikeH1
08-18-2011, 8:01 AM
I always wondered why the BG who initiates an illegal assault legally defines the amount of force that can be used by the GG against the BG

probably because since criminals write the laws, the laws will favor criminals

Wherryj
08-18-2011, 8:03 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2026433/London-riots-Teenager-16-killed-Richard-Mannington-Bowes-single-punch.html

Abstract: During the London riots of 2011, a 16 y.o. BG punched a 68 y.o. GG who was trying to put out a fire. A single blow to the head caused the GG to fall down and hit his head and never recover. After 3 days he was taken off of life support.

Over the past 2 or 3 years I've been reading more about these incidents. (E.g., there was that Asian father who confronted his son's attackers in Emeryville/Oakland a year or so ago. Punch to head -> KO -> head to curb -> brain dead....)

Assuming the GG was carrying, is proving being in fear of your life a question of fact for a jury?

From the pics in the linked story, the BG looks reasonably "big," but you can't tell from the head photo how big the GG was, so the issue of disparity of force may or may not be valid. Plus, if all it takes is 1 lucky punch to KO you, the size of the BG may not be that relevant: skill, speed, experience, etc are all vital factors other than "disparity of force."

How many examples of this are necessary before we get out of our culture the idea that a fist fight w/a total stranger (who may kick us in our heads when we're down), does NOT put one's life at stake? (rhetorical Q, but important since jurors will have likely been influenced by Hollywood and the general culture. See "6 Deadly Injuries You Think You'd Survive (Thanks to Movies)" at Cracked.com
http://www.cracked.com/article_18862_6-deadly-injuries-you-think-youd-survive-thanks-to-movies.html#ixzz1VLbld6EP)

So, when a BG approaches you looking to start a fist fight, can you draw your HG right away or must you go to it H2H for awhile (assuming he doesn't get in that lucky punch first), before you can use deadly force?

You never know which injury may be fatal or nearly fatal. I saw a patient about ten years ago for a new patient physical. He was only middle aged, but had some very serious neurological deficits. He had speech issues, weakness and the inability to see anything except the upper right portion of the visual field in either eye.

This was rather unusual for someone his age, so I asked more about how it occurred. He had opted for the "free flu shot" at work, but experienced a vaso-vagal reaction ten minutes later. (Think "fainting with needles")

Unfortunately it occurred in the restroom at his company-a restroom with a very nicely done granite floor. He woke up several months later in the ICU after miraculously recovering from the bleeding in his brain.

You never know what might happen if you knock someone down. A twenty something fainting is about as light a "strike" as can be expected, yet he nearly died from the experience. ANYONE who assaults another is potentially risking that person's life. It may not be the "expected outcome", but the outcome can't always be predicted. Laws need to address this fact, and more leeway needs to be given to those who take action in self-defense.

Bhobbs
08-18-2011, 8:07 AM
I've seen people severely beat by an unarmed attacker/attackers to the point of coma/permanent brain damage.
If someone was trying to fight me (which rarely happens now that I've grown up and learned to swallow my pride), I would try to run.
Only if I couldn't run and was being physically assaulted would I escalate force.

"Disparity of force" as it is commonly applied is BS.
Size doesn't matter. I'm a big dude (6'2" - 220 pounds) and pretty capable of handling myself, yet I still know guys that are 5'4" and even girls that would literally mop the floor with me and probably TWO "mes".
Don't assume just because some angry little fella with "short guy syndrome" is yelling at your knees that he isn't capable of putting you in the hospital with his bare hands.
This guy was in the right because the one dude started advancing toward the girl violently, but my point is he was smaller than the other two guys and knocked them both out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-oo2lZgPuY


I agree compeletly. I am about the same size as you but I have no formal training in fighting so someone who had any training would have an advantage on me.

guntrust
08-18-2011, 8:19 AM
In the CCW class i teach, i talk in great detail about the situation i had several years ago where i drew to the low ready under threatening circumstances. (I even play my 911 call, which recorded most of the incident.) Although the threat did not appear to be armed, there were other factors causing me to feel the need to get the weapon out and yell "Stop right there" while backing off. When he continued toward me even after that, he could be viewed as attempting to arm himself with my gun, no? Anyway, what ultimately caused him to halt his advance long enough for me to gain some distance, turn around and run, was my decision to throw down my phone on the useless 911 and assume the more proper, aggressive stance [clarification: though still defensive, at low-ready] and demeanor i'd been taught at Front Sight. [Also, i yelled "I WITHDRAW, I WITHDRAW" practically growling with my teeth-bared, just in case backing up didn't make that clear enough to him and/or witnesses.]

Librarian
08-18-2011, 8:49 AM
If someone is drunk and comes up to me at a bar and says they could probably kick my ***, I just laugh and say "Yah, you probably could." and ignore them. Works every time.

Not that I recommend it, but Dan Blocker ('Hoss Cartright' on the old tv show Bonanza) told a story; he used to get such 'invitations' fairly regularly, and he'd reply something like "OK, you go ahead and start. But if I find out about it ... "

cmaynes
08-18-2011, 9:19 AM
the main attraction of wider CCW is the risk factor for the criminal is exponential increased- they act on the assumption of an unarmed victim- they arent thinking they are going to pick Chuck Norris.

It basically makes the crime potentially far more costly to the perpetrator.



as the saying goes- an armed society is a polite society.

duggan
08-18-2011, 10:14 AM
I think it depends. We were told a story in the academy about an off duty bay area cop that was in sf with his girlfriend on a dinner date, a homeless guy started yelling at him and acosting him. I guess the cop and gf ignored the guy and tried to walk around him, the homeless guy punched the cop in the face, the cop fell down and started to black out, as he was passing out he shot and killed the homeless guy. His defense was that he was about to black out and knew he had a gun on him and feared for his life the the homeless guy would either keep attacking him or get his gun. It was said that the homeless guy was a really big guy and the cop was fairly small in stature. He was never prosecuted and it was a justified good shoot.

This, in my opinion is exactly why a confrontation that is unaviodable/unexpected justifies going to the next level. If a person has his mind set on fighting, and your mouth isn't changing his/her mind, the fact that you are carrying, coupled with the potential of getting KOed and your gun taken from you poses not only a threat to you but to other people who are now going to be victims of the same ahole only now he is armed. Avoiding confrontation is high on my list, fighting was fun back in the day but as I have aged I realized that win, lose, or draw you still wake up sore in the morning lol. Something that also should be considered is how screwed up California is, a total hypothetical here but lets say you are carrying and some thug wants to go a few rounds. You try and avoid it but he persists and you end up in a fist fight. You end up catching him in the temple and down he goes, hits his head and dies from a brain injury. An anti gun DA decides to charge you with his death, reasoning that you as a LTC'er could have presented your weapon which would have prevented the thug from wanting to fight. I know it's a stretch, but here in Cali. it's not much of one.

Anchors
08-18-2011, 2:32 PM
One thing to note is that firearms are used 2.5-3.5 million times a year in self-defense.
92% result in NO SHOTS FIRED.
Regardless of the old adage "don't pull your weapon unless you are willing to use deadly force", most criminals are not willing to test the theory. Guns tend to settle them down real quick.
Only a small minority of people are going to have to justify pulling their gun later and IF that occurs, then all the things discussed in this thread apply.

I always wondered why the BG who initiates an illegal assault legally defines the amount of force that can be used by the GG against the BG
probably because since criminals write the laws, the laws will favor criminals

Very good point.

I agree compeletly. I am about the same size as you but I have no formal training in fighting so someone who had any training would have an advantage on me.

I have an ex-girlfriend from when I was about 17. We were both pretty active in the hardcore music scene.
She would go to shows and mosh (not wildly pushing each other around, it is different than that).
More than a few times she would accidentally hit a guy and he would take offense. One time a huge metal head bigger than me pushed her from behind and she flew across the venue.
She proceeded to get up, run across the floor, jump and fly through the air and land a punch square in his nose, shattering it.
He was on the ground, bleeding, crying, and spitting up blood.

This is just another point as to why size and gender have nothing to do with disparity of force.

Wherryj
08-18-2011, 3:03 PM
I agree compeletly. I am about the same size as you but I have no formal training in fighting so someone who had any training would have an advantage on me.

I'd like to say that this goes both ways. I have had training (black belt in Shorinji) and there is only a certain amount of size that can be overcome with technique.

At one point my sensei recommended broadening my exposure to techniques, so I dabbled in a few other disciplines. One of them was Aikido. Aikido is a technique that can take a lifetime to learn, and I can say that I was probably about a lifetime away from having learned it when I was paired with a young lady who had almost reached her black belt status. She was 5'4", and though I'm only 6'0" that is a pretty big difference.

She used to become almost incensed when she'd use perfect technique to no avail against me, yet I'd do the same technique-or try to do it-and throw her around the dojo.

It is best to never underestimate any opponent. The small guy might know something that makes him very dangerous, but also never underestimate the absolute novice giant.

guns4life
08-18-2011, 3:06 PM
Just ask yourself what the police would do if they were in your exact situation...then do the same thing. ;)

jwkincal
08-18-2011, 3:18 PM
I'd like to say that this goes both ways. I have had training (black belt in Shorinji) and there is only a certain amount of size that can be overcome with technique.

At one point my sensei recommended broadening my exposure to techniques, so I dabbled in a few other disciplines. One of them was Aikido. Aikido is a technique that can take a lifetime to learn, and I can say that I was probably about a lifetime away from having learned it when I was paired with a young lady who had almost reached her black belt status. She was 5'4", and though I'm only 6'0" that is a pretty big difference.

She used to become almost incensed when she'd use perfect technique to no avail against me, yet I'd do the same technique-or try to do it-and throw her around the dojo.

It is best to never underestimate any opponent. The small guy might know something that makes him very dangerous, but also never underestimate the absolute novice giant.

But you weren't a novice, Doc... you already had training that taught you (for example) not to have all of your weight forward in a probing attack, or gauge your opponent's position and momentum by their center of mass and not their head/hands/legs; these and many things that you take for granted, when paired with your superior mass, do make up for the difference in training.

When both opponents are unarmed and skilled beyond "brawler," then initiative/surprise counts first, then mass... skill and speed count, too, but there is a reason that fighting sports have weight classes.

MasterYong
08-18-2011, 3:22 PM
I have a very good friend who is a 4th degree blackbelt in Isshin Ryu martial arts (not sure of the spelling).

His original instructor is a 10th degree black belt.

My buddy is a decent-sized guy (maybe 6'1") and is RIPPED. He is very quiet and unassuming, but I'm willing to bet the average person that doesn't know him would be quite intimidated by his presence.

His original instructor, on the other hand, is tiny. He's maybe 5'5", over 60 years old, gray hair, thin as a coat hanger, and is also very quiet and unassuming. We've always joked that we'd love to see the look on the face of the poor punk-*** that may someday try to mug him in a dark alley somewhere. If the thug had ANYTHING but a gun he'd be SCREWED. I've seen this man spar. He's fast. I mean, holy friggin' crap you cannot see him move fast. He puts people on the ground in matches in such a blur the spectators have NO IDEA what he actually did.

...and the whole time, this instructor looks like he's barely moving. Barely breaking a sweat. He's CASUAL.

Knowing a man like this (and heck, even my buddy who is only at 4th degree) has made me realize that ANYONE I don't know could potentially be a very, very effective and unstoppable killer. You can't just look at someone and know you can take them. You can't say "look at the size of that guy, he wouldn't stand a chance!"

If someone wants to play fisty-cuffs, and I have a gun, you'd better bet it'd be my first option. I have no interest in fighting, so any fight I get in is going to be 100% instigated by the other party. I have no doubts there are people out there that can easily kill me with their bare hands, and you'd have to be outright ignorant to not see this yourself.

Heck, I once watched my buddy snap a PT 4"x4" IN HALF with a single punch. He had sunk it in the ground a few days before in concrete to use it for knuckle conditioning. He went outside, and on the first strike snapped it. A blow like that to the head or even chest is likely to be more than lethal. Again, this was a Pressure-Treated (green kind) 4"x4"...

Schrodinger's Cat
08-18-2011, 4:05 PM
Threads like this are great to learn what we SHOULD do in certain situations, but what has happened to the people that actually DID? What do we have in terms of case law or examples of good shoots in California, particularly the more anti-gun areas?

saki302
08-18-2011, 10:42 PM
Mace/pepper combo or a decent taser will take the fight right out of a hothead- unlike a gun, you can go ahead and use it, it's non-lethal. just hurts like hell :D

Let's see them land a blow while blind and gagging, or enjoying 50K volts of electrical muscle stimulation..

-Dave

Paladin
08-18-2011, 11:38 PM
Mace/pepper combo or a decent taser will take the fight right out of a hothead- unlike a gun, you can go ahead and use it, it's non-lethal. just hurts like hell :D

Let's see them land a blow while blind and gagging, or enjoying 50K volts of electrical muscle stimulation..

-Dave

Ck out my Crime Avoidance & Self-Defense Advice linked in my sig line and you will see youtube videos of BGs doing just that....

jimmykan
08-19-2011, 12:35 AM
Let's see them land a blow while blind and gagging, or enjoying 50K volts of electrical muscle stimulation..

Oh man, that's turning me on. :chris:

socalocalypse
08-19-2011, 4:10 AM
Have you guys seen the videos of the youths playing 'knockout king' with unsuspecting victims?

That's enough for me to no longer be concerned about hurting anyones feelings by crossing the street when a group of youths are coming towards me, or locking my car doors when they're in a crosswalk in front of me.

I only hope I'll be able to bring a gun to a fist fight, and that it'll end the situation.

The last thing I want is a fight, much less a fair fight.

BanjoGunner
08-19-2011, 6:49 AM
One thing I have learned in sparring, rather painfully I might add, is to never judge a book by its cover.

I will always assume someone coming at/attacking me, regardless of size, and especially if unarmed, thinks they have some sort of edge over me, and who am I to argue with them. I am not willing to bet my life that they will suddenly become benevolent and break off their attack if/when I go down.

YubaRiver
08-19-2011, 7:28 AM
Mace/pepper combo or a decent taser will take the fight right out of a hothead- unlike a gun, you can go ahead and use it, it's non-lethal. just hurts like hell :D

Let's see them land a blow while blind and gagging, or enjoying 50K volts of electrical muscle stimulation..

-Dave

They can still do some damage.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2011/aug/18/jury-clears-firefighter-chism-all-charges/

El Gato
08-19-2011, 7:56 AM
Using Deadly Force in Self Defense is only reasonable when you are in fear of your life or great bodily harm. If you are in this situations a District Attorney may make the judgement that you used reasonable force and not file charges. If charges are filed a jury will decide if your actions are reasonable.


See California Firearms Laws 2007 booklet

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

Go to pages 27 and 28


Use of a Firearm or Other Deadly Force in Defense of Life and Body

The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist the attempt to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a reasonable person in the same or similar situation would believe that (a) the person killed intended to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime; (b) there was imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the person acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself or herself or another from death or a forcible and life-threatening crime. Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes.

Disparity of force is one factor considered when deciding what is a reasonable response. If you are a 6'8" tall 25 year old being attacked by a empty handed 12 year old girl a jury might decide that you were not reasonably in fear of your life.


http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/index.php

excellent source of info...
another quote from the same source...


“It is lawful for a person being assaulted to defend himself or herself from attack if he or she has reasonable grounds for believing, and does in fact believe, that he or she will suffer bodily injury. In doing so, he or she may use such force, up to deadly force, as a reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances would believe necessary to prevent great bodily injury or death. An assault with fists does not justify use of a deadly weapon in self-defense unless the person being assaulted believes, and a reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances would also believe, that the assault is likely to inflict great bodily injury. It is lawful for a person who has grounds for believing, and does in fact believe, that great bodily injury is about to be inflicted upon another to protect the victim from attack. In so doing, the person may use such force as reasonably necessary to prevent the injury. Deadly force is only considered reasonable to prevent great bodily injury or death.

NOTE:The use of excessive force to counter an assault may result in civil or criminal penalties.”

California Firearms Laws – 2007 – California Department of Justice Summary

echoarms
08-19-2011, 8:09 AM
I think it depends. We were told a story in the academy about an off duty bay area cop that was in sf with his girlfriend on a dinner date, a homeless guy started yelling at him and acosting him. I guess the cop and gf ignored the guy and tried to walk around him, the homeless guy punched the cop in the face, the cop fell down and started to black out, as he was passing out he shot and killed the homeless guy. His defense was that he was about to black out and knew he had a gun on him and feared for his life the the homeless guy would either keep attacking him or get his gun. It was said that the homeless guy was a really big guy and the cop was fairly small in stature. He was never prosecuted and it was a justified good shoot.
Every shoot a cop makes is ruled "good". That doesn't show much. That being said, the guideline that I subscribe to is you pull a gun when 10-life in jail is better than what was coming.

Decoligny
08-19-2011, 8:31 AM
Just ask yourself what the police a good cop would do if they were in your exact situation...then do the same thing. ;)

There are too many incidents in the news to not make the distinction shown in the correction above.

gh0stface
08-19-2011, 12:12 PM
I probably wrong because it's been awhile, but in college, we did comparison between a punch vs .357 bullet. A strong male can easily punch over 700lbf/ft which puts the energy level on par with a .357 magnum. The .357 has the huge advantage in power, but the energy about the same. In fact, some the punches we calculated far exceeded the of energy of the .357. How can throwing punch, not be consider lethal force? A punch like that can split your liver, burst your spleen, cause serve head trauma, etc. If the jury understands this, you should be justified in using your firearm against the threat force from fist.

socalocalypse
08-19-2011, 12:23 PM
Every shoot a cop makes is ruled "good". That doesn't show much. That being said, the guideline that I subscribe to is you pull a gun when 10-life in jail is better than what was coming.

Man I'm with you! I don't trust for a second I won't be prosecuted no matter how justified the shoot. Protected class>producing class

pgg
08-19-2011, 1:27 PM
I cleared leather after I got bumped by a guy looking to provoke a fight here in NV.
The cops were mighty upset but I loudly asked bystanders to call the cops & was even recorded by 911 dispatch asking witnesses to call 911, & the guy was a foot taller & much heavier then I and clearly used to intimidating people. I spent hours with the police with them trying to get me to admit that I was at fault and threatening to kill the guy but in the end I prevailed - they let me go and were very unhappy doing so.

[...]

The cops were extremely unhappy to have to let me go

You're a brave man, or a foolish one, to have spent so much time talking to the police. Especially since they seem to have wanted to burn you.

Glad it worked out.

emtmark
08-20-2011, 4:30 PM
+1

People die from their head hitting the ground all the time. Concrete meets skull at speed, brain crashes into skull... never good, sometimes fatal.

Remember Brian Stow get better soon buddy

InGrAM
08-20-2011, 4:50 PM
I don't know about anyone else. But if someone wants to fight me. It is not because I started the fight or provoked them. There for, if someone wants to do bodily harm to me I would feel in fear of my life and pull my firearm. If they keep trying to harm me I would back off until no longer able to, then take appropriate action.

I recently had two pit bulls (let out of their house by their owner, on purpose) rush me while I was walking down the street in my neighborhood. I pulled my firearm and luckily the dogs did not attack and I did not have to use my firearm but I still pulled it out of instinct for fear of my life. I feel that if you are in fear of your life in any way go ahead and pull the gun. It does not mean you HAVE to use it. It is a trump card to be used at the right time in the right situation.

ccmc
08-21-2011, 5:26 AM
A 26 year old man was severely beaten in a restroom at Candlestick Park at the 49er-Raider game. He was taken to the hospital with what were described as life threatening injuries. There were also two shootings at the game.

saki302
08-29-2011, 1:50 PM
Tasers/ Pepper may not be the best, but they'll turn the odds towards your favor employed correctly any day of the week :)

It's much harder to land a punch blind, or while in massive pain, no? And good luck chasing someone running blind!

-Dave

PS- I watched the taser video- looks like the probes either didn't land, or landed in a bad place since the guy was too close. If you have a standoff non-lethal weapon, it's not a good idea to wait too long before deploying! Police may not have the same choices since they have to arrest the guy- you can run!