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View Full Version : Ballot Initiatives - A Note on Why They Won't Work for 2A in CA


wildhawker
08-16-2011, 11:25 PM
To reiterate, and underscore, what's been said many times here and elsewhere - ballot initiatives simply will not work for 2A issues in California.

As many are aware, the State of California enacted a new law to force the collection of sales tax for purchases originating in California. This law goes significantly to the Amazon.com business model, a highly-popular online retailer used by millions upon millions of people.

2A matters, on the edge that we run, are simply nowhere near as popular as Amazon.com. Moreover, California's gun owners don't have $3M to fund a signature drive, and then millions more for marketing once a measure is placed on the ballot.

Notice:

True, Amazon.com has invested $3 million in the signature effort and some argue that the financial support is what is driving the successful signature gathering.

However, the uncertainty over the economy has voters lining up to sign the petitions. As one voter said, ‘Saving $5 in taxes buys me another gallon of gasoline.'

Read More: http://foxandhoundsdaily.com/blog/joel-fox/9324-amazon-tax-referendum-drive-going-gangbusters

Thanks to Alan Gura, David Sigale, and SAF, we have a real RKBA here in California. We will win back, in the courts, what's been lost over many years here by way of our Legislature. To some degree, we'll be able to leverage these wins into more effective opposition to new bills and regulations.

That is the beginning, and end, of the analysis.

-Brandon

voiceofreason
08-16-2011, 11:28 PM
Patiently waiting in L.A. County...

CalBear
08-17-2011, 12:21 AM
A RKBA ballot initiative in this state would be akin to paying to taking a full court shot for a million dollars with a rim that's smaller than the basketball itself.

People who think they can ram through a ballot initiative are in the same camp as the folks who think they can be the knight in shining armor for CA RKBA by filing terribly written lawsuits in bad jurisdictions over the wrong claims. It's a waste of time, and would actually be counter productive. An initiative would probably play into the interests of antis and could lead to even more bad laws.

Think of CA like this: CA is to gun rights what Alabama is to racial equality half a century ago. You wouldn't have put up a referendum for equal rights in that state at that time, nor should you put up a referendum for self defense rights in this state right now. Impatient people don't belong in leadership roles in this business.

Connor P Price
08-17-2011, 12:32 AM
Its true that pro-gun legislation would be a foolhardy endeavor in CA. However its important that we don't give up on voting for 2A friendly people in our state legislature. (I know Brandon wasn't recommending that, just reiterating.)

We can still fully expect anti-rights legislation to be put forth every year so its important that we vote properly so those measures will lose. Voting is free, fighting bad legislation in court is expensive.

wildhawker
08-17-2011, 12:59 AM
Its true that pro-gun legislation would be a foolhardy endeavor in CA. However its important that we don't give up on voting for 2A friendly people in our state legislature. (I know Brandon wasn't recommending that, just reiterating.)

We can still fully expect anti-rights legislation to be put forth every year so its important that we vote properly so those measures will lose. Voting is free, fighting bad legislation in court is expensive.

A slight threadjack to the subject of our Legislature:

As we go forward, there will be a varying degree of movement on some useful "cleanup" bills that range from "viable" to "possible", so yes, we should definitely always keep our eye on the ball and vote for those legislators who respect RKBA.

The redistricting may very well cut against us, so the next few election cycles are going to be especially important.

-Brandon

nicki
08-17-2011, 3:29 AM
I have to agree with Bradon's assessment that ballot Initiatives that directly promote our second amendment rights will not work here in California.:(

However, there are many other things that our opponents actually support that would indirectly help us and if such ballot initiatives do come up, then it would be smart for us to make sure that we get involved and help them.:43:

Nicki

Knuckle Dragger
08-17-2011, 3:40 AM
More importantly, by putting 2A issues on a ballot you're essentially subjecting a fundamental right to a popularity contest. There's been a tremendous investment made in securing the 2nd amendment as a 'normal' part of the Constitution and a fundamental right. Putting an issue like right-to-carry on the ballot undermines years of work.

Connor P Price
08-17-2011, 3:44 AM
More importantly, by putting 2A issues on a ballot you're essentially subjecting a fundamental right to a popularity contest. There's been a tremendous investment made in securing the 2nd amendment as a 'normal' part of the Constitution and a fundamental right. Putting an issue like right-to-carry on the ballot undermines years of work.

The judiciary doesn't really care if the RKBA loses in the legislature. That's why we're winning.

anthonyca
08-17-2011, 3:55 AM
Did this come up because people are actively perusing this avenue?

Falconis
08-17-2011, 5:18 AM
Did this come up because people are actively perusing this avenue?

I think it's because people keep bringing it up, like the newbies. I was guilty of it myself some time ago.

I also want to remind people to get to know your officials running for office even in the local arena and then vote. With Sunnyvale and Pleasant Hill a recent reminder of what can happen if too many anti's are in office.

It would be nice to buy some commercials endorsing self defense, even if it's just to make the anti's get their panties in a twist.

Librarian
08-17-2011, 1:12 PM
See also Why don't we put [something] on the ballot? Initiatives and Amendments (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=156804)

stix213
08-17-2011, 2:54 PM
I have to agree with Bradon's assessment that ballot Initiatives that directly promote our second amendment rights will not work here in California.:(

However, there are many other things that our opponents actually support that would indirectly help us and if such ballot initiatives do come up, then it would be smart for us to make sure that we get involved and help them.:43:

Nicki

I have always thought a ballot initiative banning LEO exemptions to any gun laws would pass with the voters here. Libtard voters would think they are getting one step closer to their utopia, while in reality it will force the legislature to repeal any gun laws they can't keep applied to LEO's (pretty much all of them).

Still too expensive though as Brandon points out

ZombieTactics
08-17-2011, 3:27 PM
I have always thought a ballot initiative banning LEO exemptions to any gun laws would pass with the voters here. Libtard voters would think they are getting one step closer to their utopia, while in reality it will force the legislature to repeal any gun laws they can't keep applied to LEO's (pretty much all of them). ...

As strategically sound as this notion appears, I am still among those who see LE and armed citizens as natural - if sometimes grudging - allies. Any such initiative, successfully supported by 2A activists,would likely strip many necessary tools from the kit of law enforcement, and potentially drive a wedge between LE and 2A communities.

I don't see the end result as expanding rights for all, but rather making enemies out of friends.

Dreaded Claymore
08-17-2011, 7:26 PM
Maybe this should be added to the stickied Status of California Gun Laws FAQ (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=317860).

Gray Peterson
08-17-2011, 10:13 PM
If CGF had the $3,000,000 that Amazon.com spent on a ballot initiative, we would be unstoppable. Litigation gets more bank for the buck versus ballot initiative.

Might I also add an issue that's rather...unique in perspective to me. Putting fundamental rights to a vote is a bad idea for numerous reasons. However, unlike a situation like In Re Marriage Cases leading to Proposition 8, the federal courts cannot be overridden by a ballot initative....

Nazrico
08-17-2011, 10:21 PM
What about a referendum that said something like:

"Acknowledging that Open-unloaded-carry is legal in California and causes issues by being observed by others, the people of California adopt an amendment to the state code to prohibit open carry, and only allow conceal carry via a "shall issue" scheme."

I.e. akin to the Senate boot-strapping model of sticking something you want in a bill that everyone else wants....if people knew it was legal to walk around with a handgun in a holster and pockets full of cartridges, they'd probably be shocked and want that to stop, and might overlook the conceal carry 'shall issue' provision when they get to the polls...with little marketing...?

wildhawker
08-18-2011, 12:46 AM
Please re-read this thread. The answer to your question lies above.

I'll add that I would never horsetrade open carry for a ballot prop on concealed carry. If they want ANY of my rights, they will have to fight me for them - and win. It's too easy for them to simply pour PORAC money into marketing...

-Brandon

What about a referendum that said something like:

"Acknowledging that Open-unloaded-carry is legal in California and causes issues by being observed by others, the people of California adopt an amendment to the state code to prohibit open carry, and only allow conceal carry via a "shall issue" scheme."

I.e. akin to the Senate boot-strapping model of sticking something you want in a bill that everyone else wants....if people knew it was legal to walk around with a handgun in a holster and pockets full of cartridges, they'd probably be shocked and want that to stop, and might overlook the conceal carry 'shall issue' provision when they get to the polls...with little marketing...?