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View Full Version : Are pistol stocks legal here?


Greg-Dawg
01-16-2007, 7:11 PM
Been reading through the DOJ and couldn't find anything on the legalities of Pistol stock attachments. Just the stock alone. Can you guys help me out?

Here's a picture of one othem:
http://www.igbaustria.com/catalog/images/prod-pps-tactical.jpg

Thanks.

blkA4alb
01-16-2007, 7:12 PM
No, that would be constructive possession of a short barreled rifle.

SemiAutoSam
01-16-2007, 7:15 PM
Beyond California law you would be breaking Federal law as of 1968 it became against the law to have a stock on anything that has a barrel length less than 16 inches and an overall length of less than 26 inches federal and then California law is a little different 30 in overall length if the rifle is semiautomatic.

Were you recently on HKPRO asking the same question ?

GCA 68 made having this item in your possession constructive possession and if you actually put it together you would be creating a NFA Weapon.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/041006-vert_grip.htm

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/

tman
01-16-2007, 7:47 PM
Unfortunately, by now it is obvious that anything that fun would be illegal. Especially in Mexifornia.

Greg-Dawg
01-16-2007, 8:17 PM
Thanks a lot guys. You saved me from going to jail.

Stanze
01-16-2007, 9:18 PM
I wonder if the Fed "Constructive Possession" still applies if you have a pistol stock, the non-attached firearm that it can attach to AND a Airsoft pistol that the stock can also attach to?

hoffmang
01-16-2007, 9:27 PM
Ok,

I cry shenanigans. Show me where a pistol with a thumbhole stock is a short barreled rifle and not just a pistol with a stock attached?

Quote me some Federal Law please. I'm pretty sure a regular pistol with just a stock isn't an assault pistol under Cali law.

-Gene

bwiese
01-16-2007, 11:16 PM
Handguns cannot have buttstocks or forward pistol grips.

(Lost track, perhaps not be SBR, possibly AOW?)

Josh
01-16-2007, 11:19 PM
handguns with forward PG are AOW

with stocks they are considered SBR

All this is per the 1968 GCA

Rumpled
01-16-2007, 11:28 PM
Sorry, Gene; can't quote for you - but that is the case. SBR, in some states you can pay the tax.

I also belive that I've heard/read that a Luger can have a stock if it was original (as a C&R) but not a reproduction.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-16-2007, 11:47 PM
Ok,

I cry shenanigans. Show me where a pistol with a thumbhole stock is a short barreled rifle and not just a pistol with a stock attached?

Quote me some Federal Law please. I'm pretty sure a regular pistol with just a stock isn't an assault pistol under Cali law.

-Gene

One definition of short barreled rifle from 26 USC Sec. 5845(a)(3) is...

a rifle having a barrel or barrels less than 16 inches in length...

And 26 USC Sec. 5845(c) says...

The term 'rifle' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned or made or remade to use the energy of an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.

http://www.wearethepostmen.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/barbrady.jpg

Your charge of shenanigans has been deemed unproven and unjust and is thus dismissed.

hoffmang
01-16-2007, 11:58 PM
I will plead guilty to the charge that my shenanigans call is incorrect based on 26 USC Sec. 5845(c).

It is very important that we all do the homework to make sure our assumptions are actually backed by the laws in question as we've all learned throughout the entire OLL evolution.

However, I may still write a letter to ATF to make sure that's how they interpret it. Absent a positive response to that letter, I stand corrected.

-Gene

Edit: And ATF has already opined: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/rr_59340.txt

xenophobe
01-17-2007, 12:58 AM
Handguns cannot have buttstocks or forward pistol grips.

(Lost track, perhaps not be SBR, possibly AOW?)

Handguns that are not Curio/Relic listed Browning Hi-Powers, Lugers and Mausers that are allowed to have stocks would be SBRs.

There are a number of models that you may legally have stocks on.

hoffmang
01-18-2007, 1:33 AM
Well, I have a bit more news that I'm annoyed I forgot about.

United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co. (http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html) was a US Supreme Court Case that stated a very similiar kit is not an SBR as long as the resulting firearm would be configured with a 16" barrel.

So, it looks to me like one can own a pistol buttstock as long as one also owns a legal 16" or larger barrel. However, that barrel can not have a shroud per CA law.

My shenanigans call - not so off base.

-Gene

xenophobe
01-18-2007, 1:46 AM
So, it looks to me like one can own a pistol buttstock as long as one also owns a legal 16" or larger barrel. However, that barrel can not have a shroud per CA law.

Of course. You can have the pistol without a stock and a 16" barrel installed. You cannot have the stock installed with a barrel of less than 16" unless it's one of the exempted C&R pistols I mentioned.

E Pluribus Unum
01-18-2007, 2:31 AM
This is why some of the Uzi "rifles" have that long barrel sticking out the front.

69Mach1
01-18-2007, 6:21 AM
So let me get this straight. If I had a glock and possessed a stock like that (not installed) I would be in violation of the NFA, but if I also had a 16 in glock barrel, than I'd be OK. At the same time, it would do me no good because I'm in CA and putting it together creates an assault rifle. :rolleyes:

Regarding Mausers, etc.., and buttstocks. If those C&R pistols are exempt by Fed law, whats to stop state law declaring them assault rifles, once you install the stock? Does CA have an exemption for these pistols?

bwiese
01-18-2007, 7:35 AM
So let me get this straight. If I had a glock and possessed a stock like that (not installed) I would be in violation of the NFA, but if I also had a 16 in glock barrel, than I'd be OK. At the same time, it would do me no good because I'm in CA and putting it together creates an assault rifle. :rolleyes:


Correct. One other handwaving could also be that since that couldn't be legally assembled in CA (due to CA AW laws), then having the bbl is useless and maybe doesn't count - and then you are back to having a stock and a pistol.

That's one of the reason I didn't, in my brief posts, go into these exceptions.

Regarding Mausers, etc.., and buttstocks. If those C&R pistols are exempt by Fed law, whats to stop state law declaring them assault rifles, once you install the stock? Does CA have an exemption for these pistols?

No, there is no C&R/antique exemption for assault weapons. If it has certain evil features, it's a no-no.

Don't go there.

xenophobe
01-18-2007, 4:32 PM
No, there is no C&R/antique exemption for assault weapons... ...in California.



As for the pistols though, stocked Lugers, certain stocked Hi-Powers (Belgium and Inglis) and stocked Mausers are fine though, and don't fall under AW status.

bwiese
01-18-2007, 4:58 PM
As for the pistols though, stocked Lugers, certain stocked Hi-Powers (Belgium and Inglis) and stocked Mausers are fine though, and don't fall under AW status.

Even though they're fine under Fed law if in right date range, does that carry over to CA?

Yes, a stocked Mauser (orig. fixed mag stripper loaded version) w/buttstock may be OK from a CA AW standpoint. (What about CA SBR laws??) One with a detachable mag would have issues either with or without stock (due to separate magwell and pistol grip).

A stocked Luger (magazine fed, and with buttstock) would be OK w/r/t CA AW laws but again, are CA SBR/AOW laws offering the same exemption the Fed laws do?

xenophobe
01-18-2007, 5:03 PM
Even though they're fine under Fed law if in right date range, does that carry over to CA?

Yes, a stocked Mauser (orig. fixed mag stripper loaded version) w/buttstock may be OK from a CA AW standpoint. (What about CA SBR laws??) One with a detachable mag would have issues either with or without stock (due to separate magwell and pistol grip).

A stocked Luger (magazine fed, and with buttstock) would be OK w/r/t CA AW laws but again, are CA SBR/AOW laws offering the same exemption the Fed laws do?

All I know is that SJGE, Sportsmens, Krausewerks, and a number of other shops have displayed and sold these in retail and at gun shows and that they are legal to have, shoot and own.

Next time you're at the store, talk to John. He'll confirm.

hoffmang
01-18-2007, 6:09 PM
To be clear though, if you have a 16" un-shrouded barrel for you pistol and a stock, you can assemble that in California without violating the Assault Pistol ban.

-Gene

69Mach1
01-18-2007, 6:19 PM
To be clear though, if you have a 16" un-shrouded barrel for you pistol and a stock, you can assemble that in California without violating the Assault Pistol ban.

-Gene

Noooo. That would make it an assault rifle. 22's are exempt.

hoffmang
01-18-2007, 6:23 PM
69Mach1,

It is a semi automatic centerfire rifle with a detachable magazine.

There is no collapseable stock, no flash hider. OAL has to be 30".

If the barrel isn't shrouded, I don't think its an AW.

-Gene

69Mach1
01-18-2007, 6:25 PM
69Mach1,

It is a semi automatic centerfire rifle with a detachable magazine.

There is no collapseable stock, no flash hider. OAL has to be 30".

If the barrel isn't shrouded, I don't think its an AW.

-Gene

You're forgetting the protruding pistol grip. That's why no-one can buy those conversions for the 1911 and glock pistols, from any gunstore. Can't remember the name of the kit right now.

hoffmang
01-18-2007, 6:30 PM
Right. Sorry - my visualization had my hand hiding the pistol grip that protrudes...

So how are Mauser Broomhandles or all the other C&R stuff being sold? As an 03 I know that the AW laws apply to C&R. Anybody got a DOJ letter on this?

-Gene

m24armorer
01-18-2007, 9:46 PM
Key words: detachable magazine outside of the grip. A stocked C96 without the 712 type detachable mag is fine. So are pre war Belgian High Powers, wartime Inglis and a whole load of Lugers, Colts and many others. Stocked pistols just rock.

I have a DWM Artillery stocked rig with a 32 round snail drum I use for jackrabbits.

You will break the bank collecting LEGAL in California stocked pistols. And to just mess up your day start collecting CA leagal SBR'S. Smith & Wesson 1940 9 m/m light rifles and all the others like the Beretta's semi only 38.

Oh crap, don't get me started....

Really glad I have a place in America (Nevada).

hoffmang
01-18-2007, 9:57 PM
m24,

I think what is screwing us up is that it would seem that a handgun with a 16" barrel and a stock would now be a rifle under SB-23. Under the rifle definition its only that its a detachable magazine - without the inside the grip issue.

-Gene

m24armorer
01-18-2007, 10:15 PM
Ahhhhhh....

I see your point. Fine line here but (example) Colt 1911A1 with a stock and a 16 inch barrel still do not meet the definition of a rifle. As in designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder.

I don't have the PC in front of me but will check tomorrow for a modifed or made from clause.

BTW: good point!

69Mach1
01-18-2007, 10:21 PM
Wow, I'm even more confused. Let's see. Regular semi-auto handguns can become assault weapons with certain features, but not the feature of a short barrel and a buttstock. That's a whole other law (Federal-NFA). A handgun transitions into a rifle with the attachment of the buttstock, again NFA-short barreled rifle. However ATF exempts the Luger (for example) from NFA. Back in Cali, a 6 inch Luger with buttstock attached is a rifle, so no NFA, but now we're back to an assault rifle.
(Head spinning)

There must be an exemption in the CA penal code for these vintage pistols with stocks.

hoffmang
01-18-2007, 10:27 PM
There is a "there" here... And with a SCOTUS case clarifying that there isn't always constructive possession of an SBR when a pistol is involved...

Which brings us all the way back around to those C&R items...

M24 and all, I'll swing by or call Krause in the morning to see what he thinks.

-Gene

m24armorer
01-18-2007, 10:41 PM
Always mess with Mike!! Any chance you get and give PacMan (Bob) What HO! Actually, great people there, but I think this is out of Mikes box.


Really, a pistol is a pistol but I think it wise to run this by some of my friends who I trust.

bu-bye
01-18-2007, 10:47 PM
I asked about this years ago and was told that I could put a stock on my glock as long as I also added a 16 inch barrel. I remember very little about his reasoning but its was somthing like you can't turn a rifle into a pistol but you can turn a pistol into a rifle. This person could have been full of it though.:rolleyes:

m24armorer
01-18-2007, 10:49 PM
Fed says OK, question is state frame of mind.

artherd
01-18-2007, 10:53 PM
It is a semi automatic centerfire rifle with a detachable magazine.
and a pistol grip. (or thumbhole stock take your pick.)

m24armorer
01-18-2007, 10:58 PM
OK Ted we knew that, now with your vast amount of free time what does California have to say.

bu-bye
01-18-2007, 11:03 PM
OK Ted we knew that, now with your vast amount of free time what does California have to say.

"Welcome to the Matrix"

Its all just a form of control:D

artherd
01-18-2007, 11:03 PM
Anybody got a DOJ letter on this?
Bam.
http://cdglobal.net/gun/DOJ-Reply-C&R1-DISTRIBUTE.jpg
Curriously, Antiques are exempt from AW laws.

Also (idly) notable in writing that CA has adopted federal standards to determine what is a C&R.

Edit: WTF? is calguns not allowing outside link images now?

69Mach1
01-18-2007, 11:07 PM
[......

m24armorer
01-18-2007, 11:09 PM
Another point is once the stock is removed and then the barrel you are back to a pistol.

This is sticky, if you just made a rifle out of your pistol is it not a crime to turn your new rifle back into a pistol.

There are regs on this that makes it completely legal and your pistol is still a pistol.

Will dig em up for you and the rest of the folks.

69Mach1
01-18-2007, 11:13 PM
Another point is once the stock is removed and then the barrel you are back to a pistol.

This is sticky, if you just made a rifle out of your pistol is it not a crime to turn your new rifle back into a pistol.

There are regs on this that makes it completely legal and your pistol is still a pistol.

Will dig em up for you and the rest of the folks.

That's because a pistol can be both (legally). When you add the stock, it's legally a rifle (with 16in barrel).

m24armorer
01-18-2007, 11:14 PM
You are correct sir! You just did not read far enough. C&R stocked guns are exempt from the permit process.

69Mach1
01-18-2007, 11:29 PM
Here's another twist. If the DOJ does exempt certain pistols from being short barreled rifles because the ATF does, than that means the DOJ would have just approved a rifle with a pistol grip and detachable magazine (Luger with a stock). An exemption to SB23.

Scarecrow Repair
01-19-2007, 12:31 AM
(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

So what if you could come up with a stock that made shooting from the shoulder darned uncomfortable? Some interference with the trigger such that it was meant to be fired with your hand coming from above, say at hip level. I have no idea whether that would be useful in itself, but would it make the pistol + stock not a rifle so you wouldn't need the 16" barrel?

I am not going anywhere with this, it just seemed an odd piece of language.

hoffmang
01-19-2007, 12:44 AM
m24,

I expect this would be out of Mike's league generally, but since he tends to concentrate his dealing in an area where this is an issue he may have asked about it. I've found that he's at least a bit more cluefull than most at what is and isn't correct DOJ foo.

Just to be clear everyone, there are two interesting thoughts outstanding.

1. It appears that one can't take a modern pistol and add a 16" barrel and a stock because that creates a rifle that would violate SB-23 for having a detachable magazine and a pistol grip.

2. But, since C&R items are not exempted from SB-23, the sales of C&R pistols with stocks on them should violate SB-23 or the CA SBL regulations absent an SBL license.

-Gene

Telpierion
01-19-2007, 3:31 PM
Sorry, Gene; can't quote for you - but that is the case. SBR, in some states you can pay the tax.

I also belive that I've heard/read that a Luger can have a stock if it was original (as a C&R) but not a reproduction.

Same with Broom Handels and some other C&R pistols, but these may still be a no no do to CA's SBR laws. Though constructive possession should not be an issue there.