View Full Version : Am I nuts?!? getting shot with a .22?
socalocalypse
08-14-2011, 10:18 PM
I'll never understand this, but a lot of people think a .22 is not a deadly round or not a 'real' gun.
I'm from Texas, grew up around guns, and I don't know anybody that didn't respect a .22 as entirely capable of killing someone.
I hear guys talk a lot of stuff, but when I tell them Robert Kennedy was killed with a .22, and John Hinkley Jr. with the cheapest of revolvers-you can still buy one today for $50-permanently disabled a police officer, the press secretary, almost killed Reagan with a riccochet, and put a secret service agent on the ground in a heap.
All from 15 feet, and the guy was a lousy shot, he missed Reagan every time.
So in this '.22 as a self defense weapon' thread, guys are saying use a bat instead, empty the weapon into someone then hit them with it, etc etc .
I have no experience, but my bet is that unlike movies, people don't get shot by a .22, much less multiple times, and continue their attack or whatever mischief they were up to.
From what I've read, people shot with a .22 either die immediately, run off to die a short way aways, or manage to get medical help and their lives are saved. I've never read anything about someone getting plugged multiple times, or even one time, and *then* murdering or attacking someone.
.22s riccochet like hell and travel a *long* ways. They kill cattle all the time from dopes that don't realize they're in range or don't see them.
So, you that actually see the recipients of gunshots, are people getting shot with a .22 and shrugging it off like on TV, to continue their robbery or attack?
My bet is if someone shot doesn't die, you're *probably* out of the fight one way or the other, if only because now you're refocused on that hole in your torso and using your remaining strength to get medical help.
Any thoughts?
Apologies for the long post, and thank you for your time and experience, which beats 1,000 internet 'opinions', if you ask me :)
My cuisine was murdered with a 22. She was shot in the torso, the bullet bounced around in her causing a bunch of damage. Definitely a round capable of killing.
5shot
08-14-2011, 10:56 PM
My cuisine was murdered with a 22. She was shot in the torso, the bullet bounced around in her causing a bunch of damage. Definitely a round capable of killing.
Yep, 22's have a bad habit of bouncing off bones, following bones, entering arteries and following those, breaking into multiple projectiles, and tumbling. A whole lot of people have been killed with .22's.
cOmpressor
08-14-2011, 11:20 PM
Most of the numbskulled gang bangers around here carry .22's and manage to kill each other quite easily. I've seen three lately that all died from 2 or less shots.
nagorb
08-15-2011, 1:12 AM
I've never understood why people dismiss the .22 I would rather put 10 .22 rnds in someone then 1 .45 It's the internet, people think they're going to unload an entire magazine in someone and not miss :rolleyes: I ask these guys if they would like to try out their hypothesis, for some reason these bad asses never will.
Tacit Blue
08-15-2011, 6:45 AM
.22's don't have alot of energy in terms of ft/lbs. But the velocity is what kills, that's why alot of times a .22 will go through a vest easily. It's like a razor blade at high speed.
Gotta remember that the .223 is basically a .22 on roids..
BajaJames83
08-15-2011, 6:54 AM
like said a hit from a 22 is better than a miss from a 45
There is a difference between killing power and stopping power. While lots of people have died from .22 shots, very few of them have been stopped instantly. Even centerfire pistol rounds have many instances where multiple hits (including head shots) did not stop the assailant because vital organs were missed and not enough damage was done by the bullet. And look at the reports from the Rangers in Mogadishu about the 5.56mm cartridge (which travels a lot faster and has a heavier bullet). They consistently reported their frustration that the bullets would punch through their opponents without putting them down immediately.
The question is whether a .22 will work to stop someone who is committed to hurting or killing you. I would trust it to work only slightly more than a baseball bat, and would be my last firearm choice.
If you have a choice, why in the world would you choose a .22 over something .380acp or above?
As for "more is better" and "shot placement" arguments, statistics argue against the likelihood of either being achieved. Most shots fired in a fight don't hit the target, and when they do, they rarely hit a strategic area like the cranio-ocular cavity. So, again, if the statistics are against you, why would you handicap yourself by choosing an inferior round over a more-capable one? Why not choose the one that will cause the greatest amount of damage should it miss an "instant kill" spot?
For me, I want to carry the largest caliber gun that I can a) shoot fast and accurately and b) conceal effectively (if carrying) or handle comfortably (if using for home defense). Since there are a myriad of choices beyond the .22 that meet these criteria, it makes no sense to choose a .22.
By the way, Kennedy took 8 hours to die from his .22 wound, and Hinkley did hit Reagan (although nobody died in his attack).
5shot
08-15-2011, 10:34 AM
Don't think anyone here said a .22lr would be their first choice for self defense. Just that it will and does kill people quite often.
Bobby Ricigliano
08-15-2011, 10:54 AM
I don't recall the source of the article but I read an article years ago about two roommates that had been feuding and met in the hallway, both armed. One roommate dumped 8 rounds of .45 ACP into the other one (all hits). The second roommate fired one round from a .22 LR, dropping and killing the first roommate instantly. The roommate with 8 .45 ACP rounds in his torso self transported to the hospital and survived.
I personally treat .22 caliber weapons with the same reverence as any other firearm. To not do so would be folly and dangerous.
evidens83
08-15-2011, 10:59 AM
A LEO was shot and killed with a .22 rifle a couple years ago over here.
BigDogatPlay
08-15-2011, 12:08 PM
I personally treat .22 caliber weapons with the same reverence as any other firearm. To not do so would be folly and dangerous.
A wiser man than me once said that a lot of people have died over the years trying to prove that a .22 can't kill you. It can and it will.
I've seen people shot with them and they make nasty wounds.
TrailerparkTrash
08-15-2011, 1:30 PM
.22's don't have alot of energy in terms of ft/lbs. But the velocity is what kills, that's why alot of times a .22 will through a vest easily. It's like a razor blade at high speed.
Gotta remember that the .223 is basically a .22 on roids..
NIJ Level IIA, II, IIIA and III vests, and a .22LR will NOT go through it at all. Most cops wear either a IIA or II NIJ level vest.
As far as the.22LR goes..... I've always said, "...give me a Ruger 10-22 rifle and I will rule any Superdome come the next Katrina style disaster." -Me.
center_x
08-15-2011, 2:48 PM
Would a .22 be my first choice, no. Would I use one to save my life if needed, yes.
I've killed more animals with a .22 than any other of my guns/bow combined.
ElvenSoul
08-15-2011, 3:00 PM
When I was a kid I had a friend who didn't thin pellet rifles where dangerous. He still limps to this day.
Regulus
08-15-2011, 3:18 PM
It may not be the best choice for stopping power, but if anyone is being fired upon (or is hit) with any round, common sense and the instinct for survival, will more often than not stop the attack. Unless the person is insane or on some drug that is warping their reality, they will not know, or care, what round they just got hit with. They will just want to get away from the gunfire directed at them. I have every confidence in the .22 round.
Tacit Blue
08-15-2011, 5:24 PM
A LEO was shot and killed with a .22 rifle a couple years ago over here.
Dan Bessant OPD, RIP. Idiot Samoan kid shot him on a traffic assist, the round went under his arm pit and hit his heart (Weak spot of the vest).... And then the whole islander community complained when OPD raided them.....:rolleyes:
I've been inside the Oceanside PD Police Officers association building, they have pictures of them in their honor. The other being Tony Zeppetella RIP.
I don't care what vest your wearing, a .22 will kill...
Packy14
08-15-2011, 7:59 PM
Dan Basset OPD, RIP. Idiot Samoan kid shot him on a traffic assist, the round went under his arm pit and hit his heart (Weak spot of the vest).... And then the whole islander community complained when OPD raided them.....:rolleyes:
I've been inside the Oceanside PD Police Officers association building, they have pictures of them in their honor. The other being Tony Zeppetella RIP.
I don't care what vest your wearing, a .22 will kill...
did it go through his vest? It probably went through the side where there was no vest material.
nagorb
08-15-2011, 8:08 PM
did it go through his vest? It probably went through the side where there was no vest material.
Dan Basset OPD, RIP. Idiot Samoan kid shot him on a traffic assist, the round went under his arm pit and hit his heart (Weak spot of the vest).... And then the whole islander community complained when OPD raided them.....:rolleyes:
I've been inside the Oceanside PD Police Officers association building, they have pictures of them in their honor. The other being Tony Zeppetella RIP.
I don't care what vest your wearing, a .22 will kill...
bold
jamesob
08-15-2011, 8:13 PM
i bet there are 100s of people killed a year in the u.s with 22's
Tacit Blue
08-15-2011, 8:16 PM
did it go through his vest? It probably went through the side where there was no vest material.
"Just five days before Christmas, a young Oceanside Police Officer was gunned down and killed during a traffic stop in the northeast part of the city.
Officer Dan Bessant (23) was shot after responding to a request for backup call from Officer Karina Pina (28), at about 6:20 p.m. on December 20. Pina had stopped a car with six people in it for a vehicle code violation and called for backup as she questioned the occupants. Bessant arrived about four minutes later. Approximately 15 minutes into the call, several shots were fired from behind the officers at a distance of 70 to 100 yards. A single round entered the area of Officer Bessant’s left armpit, an area not covered by the protective vest he was wearing. Pina returned fire towards the source, radioed 11-99, and dragged Officer Bessant to safety providing cover until additional officers arrived.
Oceanside Fire Department arrived and immediately started to work Officer Bessant next to the car. Mercy Air arrived shortly after and flew him to Scripps Hospital in LaJolla where he was pronounced dead.
Law enforcement officers from as far as Coronado, National City and Chula Vista responded to the scene, along with sheriff's deputies, California Highway Patrol officers, and officers from the county Probation Department, Carlsbad and Escondido.
A two block area was cordoned off and the neighborhood searched door-to-door. Witnesses reportedly directed officers to several homes on Arthur Street, which helped to identify those taken in for questioning. Sometime after 3:00 the following morning a 17-year-old reportedly confessed to the shooting. Shortly after, another juvenile was arrested. Both were booked into juvenile hall for 187 and 182 PC. "
http://www.camemorial.org/2001-present/bessant.php
TrailerparkTrash
08-15-2011, 8:52 PM
My favorite .22 cal is the .22 Winchester Magnum. (aka: .22 WMR). Ive taken more bobcats, grey fox and coyotes with that awesome round!
Falconis
08-15-2011, 9:16 PM
Ohhh I think we can all agree getting shot sucks or will suck if you haven't had the pleasure of it yet. I have not and will do my damnedest to keep it that way. I don't care what the caliber or where the shot is, it's gonna suck.
Even if it's a sling shot, it will suck. Not as bad as a .22 but it will suck. The rating on the it sucks meter just goes up from there. In the words of Michael Kelso, "ow! My eye!!!!"
Ron-Solo
08-15-2011, 9:38 PM
Killed by a .22......... Hit near the shoulder patch, Missed his vest (vests were a new concept at that time and didn't cover as well as they do now) and went Into his chest where it bounced around.
Deputy Didier Hurdle
Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, California
EOW: Friday, November 25, 1977
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Biographical Info
Age: 36
Tour of Duty: Not available
Badge Number: Not available
Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Friday, November 25, 1977
Weapon Used: Gun; Unknown type
Suspect Info: Apprehended
Incident Description
Deputy Didier Hurdle was shot and killed after stopping suspected gang members. When Deputy Hurdle and a cadet trainee stopped the suspect’s car, the suspect exited and opened fire. The Cadet was wounded in the leg, but was able to return fire. Deputy Hurdle was shot and killed. During the gun battle, the deputies were able to wound one of the suspects. Responding deputies were able to follow the suspects' blood trail. The suspects were apprehended and charged with murder of a police officer and possession of PCP.
Ike Arumba
08-15-2011, 9:48 PM
I'll never understand this, but a lot of people think a .22 is not a deadly round or not a 'real' gun.
I don't think I have ever heard anyone express such an opinion, but I have seen a number of complaints about "a lot of people" who supposedly hold such an opinion.
Without doubt, a .22 is a deadly weapon. But there are other rounds with more power. I shot some .22LR hollow points out of a 19-inch barrel at a newspaper wet pack. They expanded to 0.27-0.29 inch diameter and penetrated 4.5 inches. I fired some .32ACP FMJs out of a 3.375" barrel, and they penetrated about 16" at 0.31" diameter. I fired a 9mm FMJ out of a 5" barrel, and it traversed 19" of wet pack and then buried itself 3/4" deep into a pine board going sideways. YMMV.
jshoebot
08-15-2011, 9:49 PM
I always say that a .22 is powerful enough to just barely kill you.
Packy14
08-15-2011, 10:53 PM
.22's don't have alot of energy in terms of ft/lbs. But the velocity is what kills, that's why alot of times a .22 will go through a vest easily. It's like a razor blade at high speed.
Gotta remember that the .223 is basically a .22 on roids..
That's why I asked what I asked, because this statement is false. .22lr does not go through a vest that is II or up, and the killed officer was shot in an area not covered by any ballistic material.
Packy14
08-15-2011, 11:28 PM
That's why I asked what I asked, because this statement is false. .22lr does not go through a vest that is II or up, and the killed officer was shot in an area not covered by any ballistic material.
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/ballistic-chart.php
A little fact regarding vest penetration. Look at the bottom of Level II for .22lr. Obviously, if you are shot where you have no ballistic material, the round is going to do damage, but .22lr most definitely does not kill if it hits the ballistic material.
nemisis1400
08-16-2011, 12:14 AM
Don't think anyone here said a .22lr would be their first choice for self defense. Just that it will and does kill people quite often.
If i had a full auto american 180(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Giem3kJLM), i would so use that as my home defense rifle instead of a shotgun or an ar-15.
socalocalypse
08-16-2011, 12:51 AM
Thank you very much gentlemen for your thoughtful replies. I'm a little choked up to hear about the officers that lost their lives. It's not much, but I'll keep them and their families in my prayers tonight. Thanks again.
BigDogatPlay
08-16-2011, 1:29 PM
My favorite .22 cal is the .22 Winchester Magnum. (aka: .22 WMR). Ive taken more bobcats, grey fox and coyotes with that awesome round!
Getting shot with anything is obviously no fun, and as I noted .22 LR will definitely inflict a fatal wound. But that said and to buttress Trailerpark's point.... .22 WMR is a powerful cartridge, far and above what .22 LR is.
Saym14
08-26-2011, 10:43 PM
as they say "bigger is better" as long as shot placement is adequate.
TheExpertish
08-26-2011, 11:08 PM
As a former LEO all my death investigations were from trains so I'm not much help, but I do know a .22 will get you just as easily as any other.
masameet
08-28-2011, 1:49 PM
Almost a year to the day after Officer Bessant was murdered, California lost a second LEO to a .22LR slug. He was Detective Vu Nguyen, a seven-year Sacramento deputy sheriff with the gang suppression unit. During a foot pursuit, his killer, a 16-year-old wannabe gang member, turned around and fired a long-barreled, nine-shot .22 caliber revolver at him. One of the slugs nicked his neck and he bled out. Det. Nguyen was 37 years old. His bride of 8 months, his family (Det. Nguyen was 5 years old when he and his family were airlifted in April 1975 from the roof of the American embassy in Saigon), and many friends were among the estimated 4,000 mourners who attended his two-hour funeral Mass, held two days after Christmas. His killer was tried as an adult, found guilty, and sentenced to life without the possibility of parole.
Almost nine months later, California lost Fairfield City Councilman Matt Garcia, one of the youngest and enthusiastic American politicians ever elected to office. On Labor Day night 2008, a felon with a borrowed 50-year-old .22 caliber Colt pistol put a slug into the back of Matt's head from about 50 yards away, having mistaken him for somebody else. Hours later, declared brain dead, Matt was removed from life support and his organs were harvested. Videos on YouTube will always show Matt, between the ages of 21 and 22, talking earnestly about the changes he hoped to effect in his hometown.
A .22LR slug may be a tiny piece of lead. But shot placement to a vital organ or blood vessel will always make it a lethal round.
Working in Custody (primarily medical processing), I've had the opportunity to see all of the local gangsters who have been shot by either other gangsters, or local law enforcement. I've seen survivors of all calibers (.22, .9, .45, and .357).
I've even seen two survivors of 00 buck to the head at close range! Those guys were freaking cool to look at. Talk about a wound channel! Lol. One was paralyzed from the waist down and in a wheelchair, with nothing but a scar and slight depression on the right side of his head. The other was missing the entire right side of his face, from chin to forehead.
I've seen people shot with all calibers. From 9mm to the .45ACP. I've learned that it isn't about caliber, as much as it is about shot placement. And even then, luck comes into play. Good or bad depending on which side you are on.
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