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View Full Version : Is HK kind of losing its touch?


Solidsnake87
01-16-2007, 4:15 PM
It seems like HK produces nothing for the civilian market anymore besides the USP variants, some knives, and gunsafes. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm under the impression they no longer make semi auto rifles of their hk94 (or mp5), any g3 variant, the g36 (SL8), or USC(UMP) for the civilian market. They have discontinued the PSG-1, as well as other great precision arms. They don't even make the MK 23 anymore. I think I remember them making shotguns a few years back but I can't even find them on their page. Whats happening to HK? Do they even care about the great fanfare following their famous military type weapons? It seems like they only care about military/police contracts lately.

The only thing that seems to have the HK feel and excitement to it is the upcoming Masada. Which truly "feels" like an HK even though its made by Magpul.

I know the weapons discussed are not cali legal unless new models are made so please don't bring it up in this thread. This is more of an HK discussion.

rorschach
01-16-2007, 4:23 PM
HK is all about big govt contracts now. Only reason were getting HK45's is because the Army cancelled the contract, and HK needs something to show for the R&D dollars spent on it.

I could be wrong, but I believe the MP5 is still in production. I know they just made a bunch of MSG90A1's for the US Government, and the PSG1A1 is planned as well, but unless some laws are changed, dont count on it being imported for civilians.

Charliegone
01-16-2007, 4:26 PM
It seems like HK produces nothing for the civilian market anymore besides the USP variants, some knives, and gunsafes. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm under the impression they no longer make semi auto rifles of their hk94 (or mp5), any g3 variant, the g36 (SL8), or USC(UMP) for the civilian market. They have discontinued the PSG-1, as well as other great precision arms. They don't even make the MK 23 anymore. I think I remember them making shotguns a few years back but I can't even find them on their page. Whats happening to HK? Do they even care about the great fanfare following their famous military type weapons? It seems like they only care about military/police contracts lately.

The only thing that seems to have the HK feel and excitement to it is the upcoming Masada. Which truly "feels" like an HK even though its made by Magpul.

I know the weapons discussed are not cali legal unless new models are made so please don't bring it up in this thread. This is more of an HK discussion.

The problem isn't necessarily hk...its the USA. Most of these were banned from importation in 89 by the first BUSH. I do believe though they will be importing hk's like this this year.

http://www.hkpro.com/sl8.htm

They will all be black, I think.:p

gose
01-16-2007, 4:33 PM
It seems like HK produces nothing for the civilian market anymore besides the USP variants, some knives, and gunsafes. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm under the impression they no longer make semi auto rifles of their hk94 (or mp5), any g3 variant, the g36 (SL8), or USC(UMP) for the civilian market. They have discontinued the PSG-1, as well as other great precision arms. They don't even make the MK 23 anymore. I think I remember them making shotguns a few years back but I can't even find them on their page. Whats happening to HK? Do they even care about the great fanfare following their famous military type weapons? It seems like they only care about military/police contracts lately.
The only thing that seems to have the HK feel and excitement to it is the upcoming Masada. Which truly "feels" like an HK even though its made by Magpul.
I know the weapons discussed are not cali legal unless new models are made so please don't bring it up in this thread. This is more of an HK discussion.

HK never stopped producing the PSG1, MSG90, USC or the SL8.
HK USA OTOH stopped importing the USC and the SL8 a few years ago. The PSG1 and MSG90 are not available to the public and haven't been for some time. Not sure if it's because they are machine guns (due to push-pin lowers) or if they're "only" non-sporting.
However, HK USA recently started to re-import both the USC and the SL8.
HK never really made any shotguns. Benelli and Fabarm shotguns were imported by HK USA and stamped with the HK logo.

Solidsnake87
01-16-2007, 4:35 PM
HK never stopped producing the PSG1, MSG90, USC or the SL8.
HK USA OTOH stopped importing the USC and the SL8 a few years ago.

I never meant that they halted production (even though many models of the G3s are permanently out of production by HK), I meant to say that they just don't produce them for the civy market anymore.

Importation is not necessarily a problem for HK because they have a domestic manufacturing plant in virginia.

It would be nice to see a 416 type sporter rifle or, even better, an MP7 type sporter carbine or pistol.

It seems like all these clone companies, like vector arms for example, are taking HKs lack of space in the market and feeding off our desires for these types of firearms.

Honest to god, it seems like magpul just became the new HK. Their masada screams of 416 but also G36.

gose
01-16-2007, 4:47 PM
I never meant that they halted production (even though many models of the G3s are permanently out of production by HK), I meant to say that they just don't produce them for the civy market anymore.
Importation is not necessarily a problem for HK because they have a domestic manufacturing plant in virginia.
It would be nice to see a 416 type sporter rifle or, even better, an MP7 type sporter carbine or pistol.
It seems like all these clone companies, like vector arms for example, are taking HKs lack of space in the market and feeding off our desires for these types of firearms.
Honest to god, it seems like magpul just became the new HK. Their masada screams of 416 but also G36.

When you say Virginia I guess you're referring to the planned and now defunct facility in Chantilly? That site died after various contract failures.
The Georgia site died after the XM8 failure.

So no, HK does not have a US plant, and until they get any fat .gov contracts I seriously doubt they'll build one.

The USC and SL8 have been available to the general public in the rest of the world, not sure about PSGs and MSGs.

I would think that the US civilian market would be big enough to justify a plant here, but it's their call and I guess they don't think it's justified... Too bad, I'd really like a 417 ;)

Solidsnake87
01-16-2007, 5:41 PM
Wow, I didn't know about their factory shut downs. Kinda feels like the company is gonna die.

veeklog
01-16-2007, 5:51 PM
No, they are not ready to die yet. The Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection (ie Border Patrol, INS/Customs Inspectors) are going to the H&K P2000 for Duty carry. they are replacing the Beretta 96 Brigadeer and Glock 17's.

I will say they lost a lot of clout to Sig after they won the U.S. Coast Guard and to Immigration and Customs Enforcement (former INS/Customs Special Agents) contract for the P229 DAK. Those guns will replace the H&K USP Compacts and Glock 19's. I personally had a chance to fire the pistol, and the trigger sucks!! I would rather carry a H&K P2000.

As far as the MP-5, the UMP was to replace the MP-5 because it was cheaper to make. But who knows; maybe they are still making the MP-5

uglygun
01-16-2007, 6:01 PM
As my friends at Cavalry Arms say, "F*** HK"


Only gun in the HK lineup that I believe is worth a damn is the HK P7 series. The rest of it is over priced for what it is and in most cases I wouldn't even pay 1/2 of the typical asking price for those clunky ergonomic catastrophies of wookie guns.

xenophobe
01-16-2007, 6:14 PM
HK is doing exactly what they've always done. Just like Colt and FN has done in the last 20+ years.

Why spend time wasting efforts on individual consumers who are picky, irrational, and take a lot of time and effort to deal with when they can land a large contract, offer support to agencies and not have to deal with individual complaints that their safety is slightly discolored or that they blew up their gun with reloads, but insist that it wasn't their fault...

rorschach
01-16-2007, 6:21 PM
I read somehwere that even in some European countries, MSG90's are civilian legal, even with the push pin receivers.

PSG-1, even though it does NOT have a push pin receiver, but the shelved receiver we are accustomed to on semi-auto HK rifles, was banned by Bush 41, and even if they changed the name, among other features, it is foreign made and capable of accepting hi-capacity mags meant for assault-type weapons. Looks like LE/Govt only.

One reason they were able to import the SL8 and USC were a special magwell that only permitted special 10 round mags. Thats why the magwell must be modded in order to use hi-cap G36 and UMP mags. I hope the Masada sells well, and HK gets off their butt and realizes that the US civilian market is really worth their time and effort, but I believe it would probably be too little too late.

CALI-gula
01-16-2007, 6:24 PM
H&K is just waiting around for Michael F. Golden to make them an offer for a buy-out, or at minimum, a partnership.

(...as in President & CEO of the Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation).

.

SC-Texas
01-16-2007, 9:26 PM
I like my HK-91, but I treat them like Colt and Ruger. Sellouts of the civilian market to their government oversears. I have some strong feelings about their actions back in 1994. and yes, I'm lumping HK in there even though they were out of hte market with the 1989 import ban.

CALI-gula
01-17-2007, 12:32 AM
Unlikely. For a while H&K was owned by BAE (British Aerospace), which is way larger than S&W. They are now owned by a private investor group. Selling themselves to S&W would be insane. To begin with, they would suddenly be bound by Sorbanes-Oxley, which one wouldn't wish on one's worst enemy. They would also have to deal with multiple sets of weapons control laws (US and Germany). And in the current world political situation, close association with the US might not be astute for a weapons manufacturer.

Not necessarily, I could see British Aerospace selling off the H&K portion quite easily, no different than why Smith was sold back to a US company in the first place.

And as far as Smith and Wesson buying them, my suggestion was more in jest, a commentary on how fast Smith has grown exponentially in the past 3 years. A whole new line of several configured shotguns at SHOT Show this year? Recent introduction of AR platforms? Serious R&D? Many of their handguns introducing groundbreaking innovation? A serious measurable move into LE and military contracts? Just recently purchased Thompson-Center firearms? Cooperative deals with one of Germany's oldest firearm manufacturers, Walther? It's amazing, really.

As far as Sarbanes-Oxley goes, it is not as inhibiting to larger corporations that deal in broader spectrums of financial reporting as you might think. You just have to do a few things different, it's annoying, but workable. Companies are still thriving under it. Most corporations were well into disclosure and transparency reporting long before 2002, so it would be little effort for Smith to acclimate. H&K staff might not like it, but they'll just have to learn under their new owners. In any case, they would be the buyer - what worry is Sarbanes-Oxley to the seller? Either these companies learn to deal in a global economy or be swallowed by it, either way, Smith is growing at a rate to overcome H&K in the market share alone. And if not H&K then some other European manufacturers (like Walther for starters?).

As far as European/US aspects, Benelli, Glock, Remington, Browning and others, already manage very easily in both arenas - Smith could easily incorporate this as well, probably better than most, as they already work closely with manufacturing plants in Europe and the middle east.

And surely it is no hindrance to a buyer that is already dealing with pandering to the abusers of enforcing the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, so nothing new to them. Just last month, congress and the Bush administration were hammering out methods to decrease the reach and threats of Sarbanes-Oxley, so a better sun is on the horizon. I deal with Sarbanes-Oxley issues on a daily basis, across several grids. It's annoying, but not a company (or deal/buy-out) killer. Yet I see foreign companies already adopting Sarbanes-Oxley-like mandates for their own structural integrity.

I love to see an American firearms company like Smith and Wesson back in the forefront again, and long to see them THE premier world leader in firearm manufacturing. I only wish Colt could obtain 1/3rd of Smiths' presence in the firearm industry.


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xenophobe
01-17-2007, 1:50 AM
H&K is just waiting around for Michael F. Golden to make them an offer for a buy-out, or at minimum, a partnership.

(...as in President & CEO of the Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation).

.


I wouldn't doubt that. Seeing how GSI is currently handling HK USA. GSI is single-handedly at fault for destroying Steyr's marketability in the US. It really surprised me when HK Commercial signed on for their distribution.

I remember GSI from back in the 80's and early 90's and they sure were some of the nicest people to deal with, but they lacked any direction or motivation to market any products.

It's GSI's fault the Steyr M9/M40 Series pistols are selling for $300-$400 instead of $500-$600. When they first came out, they were the most significant new pistol design. GSI was responsible for their sales and marketing in the US, and it was a complete disaster. Not only did the pistols not get seen, or the recognition they deserved, they also would not advertise the pistol or submit any for California sales... because they said Steyr Austria wouldn't pay for it, and seeing how GSI was Steyr USA, that was their responsibility.

SI-guru
01-17-2007, 2:02 AM
http://world.guns.ru/assault/xm8.jpg

They were busy for this. But may have more time to listen to you now. :D