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Aluisious
01-15-2007, 8:14 AM
So, I tried my new AR with Wolf ammo this past Saturday. It was accurate enough, I'm a rifle noobie so keeping my shots on a dinner plate at 100 yards satisfies me. What was annoying was that the Wolf ammo failed to feed about 10 percent of the time, and twice failed to lock back the bolt on an empty mag. I don't know a lot about ARs but I figure this is a problem with the gas system, perhaps dirty and not giving enough "oompf" with the Wolf ammo?

I recall sometimes the recoil was enough to reset the trigger, and other times it was not.

I'm not sure because halfway through the session I switched to American Eagle and it worked without a hitch. Back to Wolf, and I was getting hangups again. Ideas?

C.G.
01-15-2007, 8:17 AM
So, I tried my new AR with Wolf ammo this past Saturday. It was accurate enough, I'm a rifle noobie so keeping my shots on a dinner plate at 100 yards satisfies me. What was annoying was that the Wolf ammo failed to feed about 10 percent of the time, and twice failed to lock back the bolt on an empty mag. I don't know a lot about ARs but I figure this is a problem with the gas system, perhaps dirty and not giving enough "oompf" with the Wolf ammo?

I recall sometimes the recoil was enough to reset the trigger, and other times it was not.

I'm not sure because halfway through the session I switched to American Eagle and it worked without a hitch. Back to Wolf, and I was getting hangups again. Ideas?

Was this steel cased Wolf or Wolf Performance?

Aluisious
01-15-2007, 8:18 AM
Was this steel cased Wolf or Wolf Performance?
Steel cased, polymer coated.

Santa Cruz Armory
01-15-2007, 8:26 AM
Well, it looks like that gun doesn't like that type of Wolf ammo....you should give it all to me :D

Stanze
01-15-2007, 8:32 AM
Back to Wolf, and I was getting hangups again. Ideas?

Yeah, stop using Wolf.:D I've had 4 FTE malfunctions on a box of Wolf during a shooting session on my OLL rifle. I had to disassemble the rifle(fun if you have a fix mag and other rounds are jammed up inside the action) and use my cleaning rod to poke the spent casing out for each round. If it was a combat situation I'd be dead or at least have a useless weapon.

The G.I.s in 'Nam had M16 jams traced back to bad ammo. They got better ammo, problem solved.

Since then, I've been using Remington Wal-Mart UMC, Federal AE and XM193, Winchester brand with great results!:cool:

PLINK
01-15-2007, 8:36 AM
I have heard about this same problem by another AR shooter at a local gun shop. He said that his AR rifle does not like the polymer coated Wolf ammo. He said the non-polymer coated Wolf ammo works fine. I also have no issues with the non-polymer coated Wolf ammo.

Vepr62
01-15-2007, 8:45 AM
The powder charge in Wolf ammo is minimal, and won't create sufficient pressure in some rifles to function properly in semi auto mode. I put about 700 rounds through my bushmaster without single hick-up though. It is good for plinking at 100 yards. Did you notice how strange the burned pwder smells, or that's just me?
Vasiliy

Aluisious
01-15-2007, 8:48 AM
Yeah, it does smell funky. Not much of a bother outdoors, though.

bwiese
01-15-2007, 9:56 AM
If your rifle doesn't like Wolf, there's likely issues with your rifle. Oh, good lubrication of bolt/carrier and extractor/ejector helps too.

Wolf as well as "TCW" and "JSC Barnaul" ammo all work fine in all my Colt & Bushmaster parts-gun builds and even worked in an old J&T build. It works fine in other friends' Bushy builds too.

The Wolf brass-cased ammo works fine in my rifles too.

Do you have a chrome-lined barrel with milspec chamber dimensions?

Or do you have an Oly, Model1, M&A parts, etc. bbl?

If you don't have a chromed bbl, a tight chamber and/or a rough chamber may well affect Wolf usage.

[Relax, you could own an Armalite AR10-T, which has been specifically tuned for Fed Gold Medal Match 308 ammo and doesn't run with much else :) ]

Aluisious
01-15-2007, 10:14 AM
I have an M&A parts upper, chrome lined barrel.

Of course there is some issue with the rifle, I don't know quite what though.

elmo
01-15-2007, 10:22 AM
i've used the wolf and i've had problems with ejection as well. WOLF burns pretty dirty from what i can tell. Everytime i clean it after using WOLF the bolt, ejector, everything is gunky and dirty compared to using another brand of ammo.

bwiese
01-15-2007, 10:24 AM
I have an M&A parts upper, chrome lined barrel.

Of course there is some issue with the rifle, I don't know quite what though.

"M&A parts" is likely the issue :(

However, a good chamber scrubbing, and proper lubrication of bolt/carrier, may help.

Aluisious
01-15-2007, 11:02 AM
reasons not to shoot wolf
1:wolf ammo is being horded by the third world countries over in iraq to shoot at our guys.
2:it broke my mini 14.the laquer built up in my chamber causing undo stress on my bolt and finally broke it
1) Not my problem. I'm not going to boycott everything that happens to be used by some clowns somewhere.
2) No laquer on the polymer rounds.

bwiese
01-15-2007, 11:11 AM
2:it broke my mini 14.the laquer built up in my chamber causing undo stress on my bolt and finally broke it

Um, clean your rifle? Damn, that takes some effort to break a Mini.

Oh, that crap in your chamber, BTW, is not lacquer. Lotsa experimentation by some sharp folks on the AR15-L list indicates that the coating on spent Wolf cases stays on even when heated by a blowtorch - even the old 'varnish' stuff. It's an urban legend.

What this is is actually baked on powder combustion residue: the soft steel cases on Wolf don't expand as much to fully fill the chamber, so some of this hot material blows back btwn case and chamber wall, and bakes on. It readily cleans out with a chamber brush, boresnake and CLP or even Hoppe's #9.

What's odd is that - since Wolf cases are soft steel and don't expand as much as brass ones do - is that there's sticking in chamber. Really dirty chambers could of course cause problems, but for a few dozen or even a a couple of hundredish rounds of Wolf, the dirtiness itself (if starting from a clean gun) shouldn't be that bad to affect operation. Worn or weak extractor/ejector springs and bad extractor itself can be culprits, esp if combined with dirty, unlubed bolt and a rough chamber.

Aluisious
01-15-2007, 11:17 AM
Is there something special about a chamber brush that makes it any better than using a nylon brush meant for large pistol bores?

tygerpaw
01-15-2007, 11:20 AM
The only problem I've had with Wolf in my OLL's (besides the filth) is that it sometimes will not lock the bolt back on the last shot. It cycles just fine other than that though. It's accuracy is not bad either. It is just really dirty. 100 rds of wolf is probably like 300 rds of Rem or Win.

bwiese
01-15-2007, 11:23 AM
Is there something special about a chamber brush that makes it any better than using a nylon brush meant for large pistol bores?

The chamber brush has a stepped brush that cleans both the chamber and the lugs in the bbl extension. The brushes are metal, not nylon. They are designed this way for a reason.

You should use it, it's a standard part of AR/M16 cleaning regimen. Buy several at a gunshow and use with a T-handle. If you're not using one, you're not cleaning properly (follow the milspec manuals available on AR15.COM) if you don't have a real AR operating manual.

bwiese
01-15-2007, 11:26 AM
The only problem I've had with Wolf in my OLL's (besides the filth) is that it sometimes will not lock the bolt back on the last shot. It cycles just fine other than that though. It's accuracy is not bad either. It is just really dirty. 100 rds of wolf is probably like 300 rds of Rem or Win.

That may be a function of the bolt catch + spring in combo w/magazine spring + follower, both in relation to the cycling speed of action w/Wolf (which is a bit 'lighter' loaded than some other 5.56/223 ammo). Sometimes exercising the bolt catch 100 or so times and lubing well with CLP helps to have smooth travel, and stops this - but weak springs on bolt catch or out of spec bolt catches can be culprits, too.

xenophobe
01-15-2007, 11:27 AM
1:wolf ammo is being horded by the third world countries over in iraq to shoot at our guys.

That's not quite true. Tula Cartridge Works, who owns Wolf Performance Ammo, is making huge quantities of military spec 7.62x39 for third world countries...

The mil-spec ammo TCW makes is actually great ammo. Different projectiles, different powder. Much cleaner and more accurate.

Anyone who has shot Russian milsurp and Wolf will tell you the Russian milsurp is way better ammo.

bwiese
01-15-2007, 11:33 AM
That's not quite true. Tula Cartridge Works, who owns Wolf Performance Ammo, is making huge quantities of military spec 7.62x39 for third world countries...

The mil-spec ammo TCW makes is actually great ammo. Different projectiles, different powder. Much cleaner and more accurate.

Anyone who has shot Russian milsurp and Wolf will tell you the Russian milsurp is way better ammo.

Yep, I've shot some TCW 223 and it's pretty good. Roughly same accuracy (or lack thereof) as Wolf, but cleaner.

C.G.
01-15-2007, 11:58 AM
That's not quite true. Tula Cartridge Works, who owns Wolf Performance Ammo, is making huge quantities of military spec 7.62x39 for third world countries...

The mil-spec ammo TCW makes is actually great ammo. Different projectiles, different powder. Much cleaner and more accurate.

Anyone who has shot Russian milsurp and Wolf will tell you the Russian milsurp is way better ammo.

I thought Wolf Performance Ammo was made by Prvi Partizan in Serbia.:confused:

bwiese
01-15-2007, 12:06 PM
I thought Wolf Performance Ammo was made by Prvi Partizan in Serbia.:confused:

"Wolf Performance Ammunition" is the company's actual name (see http://www.wolfammo.com.

By contrast, the Wolf Yugo brass-cased ammo you let me fire at the Shoot-N-Q (and which worked fine for me, with reasonable accuracy, but not that of XM193 or Fed Amer. Eagle) is their 'performance' model line, which I actually think is their "Gold" line....

C.G.
01-15-2007, 12:55 PM
"Wolf Performance Ammunition" is the company's actual name (see http://www.wolfammo.com.

By contrast, the Wolf Yugo brass-cased ammo you let me fire at the Shoot-N-Q (and which worked fine for me, with reasonable accuracy, but not that of XM193 or Fed Amer. Eagle) is their 'performance' model line, which I actually think is their "Gold" line....

I think Wolf Performance Ammunition must be just an importer, if you look at their catalogue of the "gold" ammo
http://www.wolfammo.com/Wolf_Ammo_Catalog2006.pdf
and compare it with Prvi Partizan production line you will find many of the same round specs.
http://www.prvipartizan.com/rifle.php

jjperl
01-15-2007, 1:44 PM
Wolf Ammo sucks. My friends SKS absolutly will not work with it. The only thing I have that will fire it with out any problems is my AK... but then again that thing will eat anything :)

stator
01-15-2007, 2:05 PM
You did not mention your barrel profile. M4 and CAR barrels, with their short gas port, can cause problems cycling in cold temperatures with weak ammo. So if your Wolf issues were lately with our cold weather, put a 20" standard upper on it and then test. For cold weather shooting, the 20" with rifle length gas port is the best.

I had problems with Wolf yesterday while shooting at Panoche. The thermometer in the vehicle read an outside temperature at 37 degrees in the morning there. Never a problem before with the exact rifles but it had been certainly warmer. I did not have the 20" upper then. However, the Yugo SKS type ate up Wolf no problem.


On the other topic, why are people still buying M&A and Model 1 parts? Read read the internet history for re-occuring issues with M&A, Model 1, ASA, and some others.

Aluisious
01-15-2007, 2:12 PM
Oh, I was shooting a 20 inch bbl.

Wolf ammo ran fine in my Kimber TLE, of course. I think I need to modify my grip though, sometimes my slide locks back on the last round of a mag and a round flies out the port when I pull the mag out.

I think my thumb is bumping the slide release, because I don't see how FMJ is going to lock open a slide...?

PS I bought M&A after I asked around and everyone said it was fine :p

bwiese
01-15-2007, 2:35 PM
PS I bought M&A after I asked around and everyone said it was fine :p

Ho ho ho ho ho ho ho hahahahahhaha...

Aluisious
01-15-2007, 7:51 PM
Well, I sprayed some CLP through the bolt, and sprayed some through the gas tube. I don't know if that will help much but it can't hurt much. Got a bunch of filthy carbon stuff out the muzzle when I did it, too.

SC-Texas
01-15-2007, 8:09 PM
I shoot 100% wolf polymer through my M16s and they run 100%.

If they hiccup, I wet the bolt with CLp and that's good for another 1000 rds.

Aluisious
01-15-2007, 8:13 PM
I'll spray the bolt before I go next time.

It had sat around for a week since the last CLP treatment before I shot last weekend.

Gringo Bandito
01-15-2007, 8:14 PM
Well, I sprayed some CLP through the bolt, and sprayed some through the gas tube. I don't know if that will help much but it can't hurt much. Got a bunch of filthy carbon stuff out the muzzle when I did it, too.

I always thought that shooting CLP through the gas tube would eventually result in a gooey sludge. I use brake kleen to clean that gunk out.

BTW - I have an M&A parts gun and it works great.

C.G.
01-15-2007, 8:25 PM
I always thought that shooting CLP through the gas tube would eventually result in a gooey sludge. I use brake kleen to clean that gunk out.

BTW - I have an M&A parts gun and it works great.

Good catch! Yes, you do not want to lube your gas tube.

Aluisious
01-15-2007, 9:14 PM
Hehe...well as long as it doesn't explode in my face I'll be all right. Cost of learnin'. Most of the CLP will be dry by the time I shoot it again and the first few shots will blow a lot of the rest out.

bwiese
01-15-2007, 9:17 PM
Well, I sprayed some CLP through the bolt, and sprayed some through the gas tube. I don't know if that will help much but it can't hurt much. Got a bunch of filthy carbon stuff out the muzzle when I did it, too.

DON'T SPRAY CRAP IN THE GAS TUBE!! DON'T CLEAN THE GAS TUBE AT ALL! Stuff cruds up in there at high temps and blocks gas system (along with debris from pipe cleaners).

RTFM - please go to AR15.COM and read the cleaning procedures in the US Mil's M16 operating manual....

Aluisious
01-21-2007, 9:12 PM
Well I didn't break the rifle by spraying CLP in the gas system. In fact, it worked well today, 100 rounds of Wolf with no malf's.

Aluisious
01-29-2007, 8:20 AM
Put another 80 through without a hitch. Spraying CLP in the gas system might be considered bad form but the rifle has worked better since.

/shrug

Franksremote
01-29-2007, 8:42 AM
It's about keeping it lubed and clean. I've shot wolf through my ARs and once in a while after a long shooting session (4-500 rounds) I'll have a FTE that requires I disassemble and poke out the empty as it sticks (rather firmly) in the chamber. A good cleaning with proper lube of the bolt carrier and recoil spring fixes it everytime. Make sure when you cycle the charging handle that the action doesn't grind, I've seen a many that were so dry that it literally ground while cycling...

rkt88edmo
01-29-2007, 9:13 AM
Wolf ammo ran fine in my Kimber TLE, of course.

Your Kimber cries itself to sleep at night.

Please clean out your gas tube with some brake cleaner or acetone and pipe cleaners.

Low cost AR builds will cause you headaches and cost more money when you replace them. Use good parts, read the manual(s), shoot, and be happy.

If you have AR questions that are not CA specific, you really are better served by the knowledge at ar15.com.

Aluisious
01-29-2007, 9:24 AM
Your Kimber cries itself to sleep at night.

Please clean out your gas tube with some brake cleaner or acetone and pipe cleaners.

Low cost AR builds will cause you headaches and cost more money when you replace them. Use good parts, read the manual(s), shoot, and be happy.

If you have AR questions that are not CA specific, you really are better served by the knowledge at ar15.com.
My Kimber will do what it's told. I own it, not the other way around.

Cheaper ammo means more trigger pulls /shrug

The next rifle I get will be a bolt action anyway. I have very little need for a semi auto. The only real use I'd have for one is SHTF.

bwiese
01-29-2007, 9:52 AM
If your rifle is running OK now, it's *not* because you sprayed the gas tube w/CLP, it's because you lubed the rest of it somewhat properly.

Again, don't lube inside the gas tube - and don't clean inside it either, pipe cleaner and Q-tip debris can char & accumulate.

Aluisious
01-29-2007, 10:22 AM
If your rifle is running OK now, it's *not* because you sprayed the gas tube w/CLP, it's because you lubed the rest of it somewhat properly.

Again, don't lube inside the gas tube - and don't clean inside it either, pipe cleaner and Q-tip debris can char & accumulate.
I didn't attribute the gas tube CLPing to the better function, just said that I haven't broken it that way yet :D

At some point I'm going to attack that rifle with a lot of compressed air to get the sludge out of the hard to reach areas, gas tube will be on that last.