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View Full Version : Accidentally swapping the disconnector and bolt catch springs


DedEye
01-13-2007, 4:50 PM
I accidentally installed my bolt catch spring under my disconnector and have been told on this forum that removing the trigger pins to disassemble the trigger assembly and swap out the springs can cause the trigger pins to deform. Has anyone else had this problem? Any advice on ways around it?

My second question is: If I just leave the bolt catch spring under the disconnector, and get a new bolt catch spring for the bolt catch, will the disconnector and trigger assembly still work ok? Is that a bad idea? Anyone got an extra bolt catch spring if that isn't a bad idea?

NRAhighpowershooter
01-13-2007, 4:53 PM
trigger pins to deform?? horse hooey...

DedEye
01-13-2007, 5:48 PM
Short of ordering some roll pin punches, whats the best tool to remove trigger pins?

bu-bye
01-13-2007, 5:52 PM
Short of ordering some roll pin punches, whats the best tool to remove trigger pins?

Doesn't take much to push them out. A ballpoint pen or anything really. You can use a punch if you have one but it is not required. I just use a small screwdriver to push them out. Once you push it out a little you can just pull it out with your fingers.

DedEye
01-13-2007, 5:54 PM
I tried pulling it out with my fingers, the spring tension from the hammer made that difficult. I tried using some needle nose pliers but stopped because I didn't want to scratch anything.

James R.
01-13-2007, 6:03 PM
I tried pulling it out with my fingers, the spring tension from the hammer made that difficult. I tried using some needle nose pliers but stopped because I didn't want to scratch anything.

You own any allen wrenches? Those can work as punches in a pinch. In fact I took a 3/32" allen wrench last week and ground the crap out of it with a dremel tool to make a special punch to punch out the bolt catch roll pin. It's a *very* hard pin to get out w/o damaging your receiver, in fact they make a special punch specifically for taking that pin out. There's a bump in the receiver that gets in the way...and if you try to drive it thru from the other side you end pu hammering the pin into said bump.

In any event, that can work for ya...but like buhbye (sp) said, anything will work...the only one that might fight a bit is the hammer because of the D spring.

Regards,

James R.

DedEye
01-13-2007, 6:05 PM
I actually looked for allen wrenches first in my tool box, didn't see any. The only allen wrench I know I have is the one that came with my Prince50 kit, which is too small for me to use for roll pins or trigger pins.

fairfaxjim
01-13-2007, 6:11 PM
Short of ordering some roll pin punches, whats the best tool to remove trigger pins?
DedEye,
Please take this in the spirit of helping, not trying to put anyone down. I have been watching your posts of problems and questions regarding building your OLL. I get a very troubling sense that you do not have a very thorough understanding of what you are doing or what you are working with. I also get the sense that there are a lot of others in the same boat.

I know that there are "simple" instructions for assembling AR-15's floating around out here, and a LOT of people have done just that. Just because of that doesn't mean that there is a responsibility for everyone doing this to understand the mechanics and the legalities of the OLL experience. Please keep in mind that you are building something that goes boom, with your face and head in contact with it. This is not to be taken lightly. Fortunately most of the problems that you can cause with an improperly assemble lower are fairly beginin, and will only cause it to not fire or cycle. Even that is a problem, because people expect weapons to function properly. You will when you shoot it, the Range Safety Officers will for the safety of those on the range, and the other shooters around you tend to expect that. When people have to start fiddling with a firearm that isn't working right, it tends to cause their safety consciousness to break down, and unsafe actions result. It would not be in your best interest to have a bad experience at the range, and it will not endeare that range to more OLL's.

I don't have any idea what your experience with firearms is, but you really need a very good understanding of them to take on building one, even from parts, successfully. I would recommend that you take a short break from building the OLL, and hook up with someone who has some knowledge and experience with AR-15s. If I were down where you are, I would be delighted to get together with you, go over how everything works, and how it sometimes doesn't, and help you get on the right track, and take you to the range for the first time firing of your OLL rifle. Anyone in the SF Bay Area that wants help can PM me, I'm at your service. I am certain you can find someone down there through calguns.net who can do the same.

Again, I am really trying to be helpful, and as a liftime shooter and an NRA Certified Instructor, I am seeing questions and actions that cause me to alert. I think this OLL thing is outstanding. I'm fully on board. I just don't want anyone to get hurt or in trouble because of it.

DedEye
01-13-2007, 6:47 PM
DedEye,
Please take this in the spirit of helping, not trying to put anyone down. I have been watching your posts of problems and questions regarding building your OLL. I get a very troubling sense that you do not have a very thorough understanding of what you are doing or what you are working with. I also get the sense that there are a lot of others in the same boat.

I know that there are "simple" instructions for assembling AR-15's floating around out here, and a LOT of people have done just that. Just because of that doesn't mean that there is a responsibility for everyone doing this to understand the mechanics and the legalities of the OLL experience. Please keep in mind that you are building something that goes boom, with your face and head in contact with it. This is not to be taken lightly. Fortunately most of the problems that you can cause with an improperly assemble lower are fairly beginin, and will only cause it to not fire or cycle. Even that is a problem, because people expect weapons to function properly. You will when you shoot it, the Range Safety Officers will for the safety of those on the range, and the other shooters around you tend to expect that. When people have to start fiddling with a firearm that isn't working right, it tends to cause their safety consciousness to break down, and unsafe actions result. It would not be in your best interest to have a bad experience at the range, and it will not endeare that range to more OLL's.

I don't have any idea what your experience with firearms is, but you really need a very good understanding of them to take on building one, even from parts, successfully. I would recommend that you take a short break from building the OLL, and hook up with someone who has some knowledge and experience with AR-15s. If I were down where you are, I would be delighted to get together with you, go over how everything works, and how it sometimes doesn't, and help you get on the right track, and take you to the range for the first time firing of your OLL rifle. Anyone in the SF Bay Area that wants help can PM me, I'm at your service. I am certain you can find someone down there through calguns.net who can do the same.

Again, I am really trying to be helpful, and as a liftime shooter and an NRA Certified Instructor, I am seeing questions and actions that cause me to alert. I think this OLL thing is outstanding. I'm fully on board. I just don't want anyone to get hurt or in trouble because of it.


Not a problem, and your advice is certainly sound.

I'm very aware of the risks and dangers posed by firearms, especially ones I'm building. I've been careful to function test everything multiple times after each step I take and most of my questions have been more in the spirit of seeing if there are tricks that I haven't picked up on as opposed to total ignorance.

I just used a small screwdriver (I thought it would be too large but it fit just right) to remove my trigger pins. Also, some of my bonehead style questions have been posed more out of a concern for scratching my receiver than anything else.

As far as my own experience with firearms, I only own one besides my OLL, and have fired only five different firearms on four separate occasions in my life. I've fired/field stripped and cleaned an M16A2, which is what made me think I had the experience needed to build the OLL. However, field stripping doesn't require touching any of the lower pins and screw :/.

I've got everything installed on my OLL now except for the trigger guard and the front pivot pin. When I get a new screw I should be able to install that without breaking it again (hopefully). The only other problem is the Watson pin being sticky/stuck, so I'll have to fiddle with that some more. Other than that, I've managed to get everything installed and working as it should :).

fairfaxjim
01-13-2007, 6:53 PM
Not a problem, and your advice is certainly sound.

I'm very aware of the risks and dangers posed by firearms, especially ones I'm building. I've been careful to function test everything multiple times after each step I take and most of my questions have been more in the spirit of seeing if there are tricks that I haven't picked up on as opposed to total ignorance.

I just used a small screwdriver (I thought it would be too large but it fit just right) to remove my trigger pins. Also, some of my bonehead style questions have been posed more out of a concern for scratching my receiver than anything else.

As far as my own experience with firearms, I only own one besides my OLL, and have fired only five different firearms on four separate occasions in my life. I've fired/field stripped and cleaned an M16A2, which is what made me think I had the experience needed to build the OLL. However, field stripping doesn't require touching any of the lower pins and screw :/.

I've got everything installed on my OLL now except for the trigger guard and the front pivot pin. When I get a new screw I should be able to install that without breaking it again (hopefully). The only other problem is the Watson pin being sticky/stuck, so I'll have to fiddle with that some more. Other than that, I've managed to get everything installed and working as it should :).
Thank you for taking it in the spirit it was given. Again, anyone in the Bay Area have any concerns or want any help with their OLL build, please PM me. I'll gladly take the time to help you out.

creampuff
01-13-2007, 6:58 PM
The legs of the hammer spring are putting a little bit of tension on the roll pin, but as mentioned above, a tap with an allen wrench, ball point pen, or in your case (since you don't have an allen wrench), the sharp point of your needle nose plier should be enough to push the roll pin out. Don't over do it, as the initial tap that pushes the pin past the legs of spring, removes most of the tension - once it breaks lose, all you will need is your fingers to pull it out.

To answer your first initial question..Don't leave the bolt catch spring in the disconnector. That would be a bad idea...

You mentioned you still have to install the front pivot pin. You won't need to waste your money on pivot pin installation tools, just drop by your local hardware store and purchase this:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j36/creampuff464/clevis.jpg

DedEye
01-13-2007, 7:10 PM
Thanks Clevis! Now I know exactly what to buy at Home Depot to install that damn pivot pin.

I already removed the trigger pins and put the disconnector spring in its right place and installed the bolt catch. I'm fiddling with the rear takedown pin now trying to get it to move easier.

Aluisious
01-13-2007, 7:23 PM
I tried pulling it out with my fingers, the spring tension from the hammer made that difficult. I tried using some needle nose pliers but stopped because I didn't want to scratch anything.
Dude...who cares if you scratch a pin.

Seriously some of you guys worry about scratches and then sell a gun after 200 rounds...:confused:

DedEye
01-13-2007, 8:51 PM
Dude...who cares if you scratch a pin.

Seriously some of you guys worry about scratches and then sell a gun after 200 rounds...:confused:

It wasn't the pin I was worried about scratching, it was the receiver. Even taped it would be possible for the pliers I had to slip and potentially scratch the receiver, not the pin.

James R.
01-13-2007, 10:07 PM
Dude...who cares if you scratch a pin.

Seriously some of you guys worry about scratches and then sell a gun after 200 rounds...:confused:

There's no sense in beating up the finish of a receiver because you don't have the right tools to do the job. Some guys are only concerned with function at which point you could use a vise w/o any padding and put an AR together. It'd look like utter @$$ but if all it needs to do is work, then so be it.

I've put together 5 complete lowers, 3 of my own, 1 I gave to my father for fathers day and another complete rifle I did for a buddy. Not a single one of them got scratched in the process and that's something I'm proud of. I'd rather put scratches on a rifle using it than put scratches on it putting the thing together. It's about taking pride in the work you do...

I'd totally put this guys receiver together for him were I closer to SB, but I'm way down in Irvine.

Regards,

James R.

James R.
01-13-2007, 10:10 PM
It wasn't the pin I was worried about scratching, it was the receiver. Even taped it would be possible for the pliers I had to slip and potentially scratch the receiver, not the pin.

You're right to think this. IMHO better to wait and spend a little money on some tools than to rush (esp if you don't even have an upper yet) to throw the lower together and then sit there regretting that you put a bunch of ugly marks on your receiver putting it together.

I suggest a set of Brass and Steel punches, a brass hammer like 3/4" by 2~3" I think it's 4oz IIRC. Some of that blue painters tape...a wood or plastic cutting board or some random block of wood to cushion the other side of the receiver.

I use a little Panavise to hold the receiver vertical while I do bolt catch roll pin...

Ohh and on the front pivot pin, you don't even need that clevis, a razor blade will get the job done as well...like an x-acto knife. You use the tip of the blade to hold in the detent and then just slip the pivot pin in front, pull the blade out and you're done.

Regards,

James R.

Turbinator
01-13-2007, 10:52 PM
Thank you for taking it in the spirit it was given. Again, anyone in the Bay Area have any concerns or want any help with their OLL build, please PM me. I'll gladly take the time to help you out.

I think your heart is in the right place, but it isn't exactly rocket science to put together an OLL. I did, and I'm hardly an expert, IMHO. There are many others here who are many steps above me - among them I see BuBye as a master of tools and handicraft, for example. However, putting together an OLL is not exactly that tough! Let's not scare people more than we have to - sure, you have to make sure everything's in the right place, but I don't want beginners reading a post like this and go off thinking that they'll never be able to put together a build by themselves without expert guidance. In my personal opinion, it's just not true. Almost anyone who can work some basic tools can assemble a lower.

Just my opinions here...

Turby

fairfaxjim
01-14-2007, 12:04 AM
I think your heart is in the right place, but it isn't exactly rocket science to put together an OLL.
I agree. But, DedEye was asking some questions that indicated (to me at least) that he could possibly save some agrivation, and damage to his lower receiver, with a bit of hands on help. If what I offered, some basic advice and help, if wanted, disuades a noobie from attempting to build an OLL, then maybe they shouldn't be building one. I'd rather help any one better understand the working and assembly of an AR than have someone with a screwed up hombuilt shooting next to me, PO'ing the range officers, and generally not getting a cool experience from it. It's not rocket science, but it is still a firearm.

DedEye
01-14-2007, 12:10 AM
Everything on my build is currently good to go, save for the front pivot pin (waiting on new springs which MrHappy is awesomely providing for me). I don't have the right kind of razor, and the clevis pin looks like it'll be easier to work with, so I'll go make the small investment it takes to buy that.

The only problem I have with my OLL now is the Watson pin. I still can't get it to move in and out with the detent and spring in. Is there a specific side of the detent that I should have facing the takedown pin? I've used a fair amount of CLP on the pin and in the detent hole to try and make it easier, but it seems that the detent gets stuck in the groove in the pin, and as a result won't let me push it in more or pull it out as it should.

Also, when applying CLP to the buffer and buffer spring, how should I apply it? Just drip a few drops onto it and let it roll around, or use a paper towel to apply some evenly across the whole buffer and spring? Should I use cleaning patches instead of paper towels?

What about other parts of the lower, where should I apply CLP? I applied CLP to the hammer and the front of the receiver where the hammer strikes (near the bolt catch) as well as in a few other places. Is that enough, or should I use Moly Grease as the ARFcom guide recommends? I picked up some Isky lube as I said before with Moly sulphide, would that do it for moly grease?

I'd also have to agree with Turby. Though I made a lot of noob errors and had to ask a lot of questions, I feel confident that I could correctly and easily build a 2nd OLL now in less than half the time.

Aluisious
01-14-2007, 12:21 AM
Everything on my build is currently good to go, save for the front pivot pin (waiting on new springs which MrHappy is awesomely providing for me). I don't have the right kind of razor, and the clevis pin looks like it'll be easier to work with, so I'll go make the small investment it takes to buy that.

The only problem I have with my OLL now is the Watson pin. I still can't get it to move in and out with the detent and spring in. Is there a specific side of the detent that I should have facing the takedown pin? I've used a fair amount of CLP on the pin and in the detent hole to try and make it easier, but it seems that the detent gets stuck in the groove in the pin, and as a result won't let me push it in more or pull it out as it should.

Also, when applying CLP to the buffer and buffer spring, how should I apply it? Just drip a few drops onto it and let it roll around, or use a paper towel to apply some evenly across the whole buffer and spring? Should I use cleaning patches instead of paper towels?

What about other parts of the lower, where should I apply CLP? I applied CLP to the hammer and the front of the receiver where the hammer strikes (near the bolt catch) as well as in a few other places. Is that enough, or should I use Moly Grease as the ARFcom guide recommends? I picked up some Isky lube as I said before with Moly sulphide, would that do it for moly grease?

I'd also have to agree with Turby. Though I made a lot of noob errors and had to ask a lot of questions, I feel confident that I could correctly and easily build a 2nd OLL now in less than half the time.
From my own experience building up my OLL a few weeks ago and 2 weeks of shooting recently:

Spray everything with CLP. Don't worry about really getting it on this or that, CLP is creepy crawly stuff and will work it's way all over the place soon enough. Let it simmer and then wipe it down a bit so that your rifle case doesn't become soaked in excess.

I did that, and my rifle goes bang. Can't complain with that, right? Oddly the CLP helped the different finishes on my lower and upper blend together better, my rifle doesn't look like a such a hodgepodge of parts :o

Someone at the range asked me who made me upper, and I answered that I didn't even know :p

Aluisious
01-14-2007, 12:23 AM
I agree. But, DedEye was asking some questions that indicated (to me at least) that he could possibly save some agrivation, and damage to his lower receiver, with a bit of hands on help. If what I offered, some basic advice and help, if wanted, disuades a noobie from attempting to build an OLL, then maybe they shouldn't be building one. I'd rather help any one better understand the working and assembly of an AR than have someone with a screwed up hombuilt shooting next to me, PO'ing the range officers, and generally not getting a cool experience from it. It's not rocket science, but it is still a firearm.
My dad helped me with my OLL build. He doesn't even really like guns but I'm not a tools-and-assembly person like he is.

We shot it together the first time, and after the first two shots exchanged the "didn't blow up and sorta did semi automatic things" look of relief.

creampuff
01-14-2007, 12:34 AM
The only problem I have with my OLL now is the Watson pin. I still can't get it to move in and out with the detent and spring in. Is there a specific side of the detent that I should have facing the takedown pin? I've used a fair amount of CLP on the pin and in the detent hole to try and make it easier, but it seems that the detent gets stuck in the groove in the pin, and as a result won't let me push it in more or pull it out as it should.




The bullet tip of the detent should be catching the takedown pin. The cylindrical side of the detent would make it impossible for the takedown pin to move. Take down the buttstock so you can remove the detent and spring, and the takedown pin. Take a look and make sure there aren't any burrs on the detent or the takedown pin.

This should be obvious, but I will state it just in case...make sure the takedown pin is being inserted from right to left (when the muzzle side is being pointed away from you). If it is being inserted left to right..then yes, the takedown pin will never move.

Santa Cruz Armory
01-14-2007, 2:03 AM
Here's a video I made a while back. I hope it helps.

Well, here is the way that I found is easiest for me to install the front Detent pin. I know there's a few ways out there. Usually I use a 3" long shouldered bolt with the threads cut off and the end smoothed out, but for this video I used a 1/4" punch.

If you wanted to be really careful you could put the lower and your arms into a trash bag to catch any flyers. :D

Front Detent pin install video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1683970245954810194

DedEye
01-14-2007, 2:29 AM
Easy Money :).

I'm still having trouble with the detents. I can't tell if they're rounded enough. Both detents are the same as each other, and are the same on both ends. They're somewhat pointed with the end slightly smoothed off. I'm going to try and take pics, but I'm not sure my camera has the macro mode necessary to capture the details.

Santa Cruz Armory
01-14-2007, 5:07 PM
Easy Money :).

I'm still having trouble with the detents. I can't tell if they're rounded enough. Both detents are the same as each other, and are the same on both ends. They're somewhat pointed with the end slightly smoothed off. I'm going to try and take pics, but I'm not sure my camera has the macro mode necessary to capture the details.


What problems are you having? :confused:

James R.
01-14-2007, 5:18 PM
Easy Money :).

I'm still having trouble with the detents. I can't tell if they're rounded enough. Both detents are the same as each other, and are the same on both ends. They're somewhat pointed with the end slightly smoothed off. I'm going to try and take pics, but I'm not sure my camera has the macro mode necessary to capture the details.

That's normal, all of the pins I've had have been the same on both sides and worked just fine. If the hole on the takedown pin itself has been bored too deep you might get into a situation where it catches. If that happens on the rear easy enough just pull the buttstock off and get it out. On the front is a little tougher.

Regards,

James R.

DedEye
01-14-2007, 7:27 PM
If the hole on the takedown pin itself has been bored too deep you might get into a situation where it catches. If that happens on the rear easy enough just pull the buttstock off and get it out. On the front is a little tougher.

Pull the buttstock off every time I need to take out the takedown pin?

The problem I'm having with the detents is that I can't take out the takedown pin when I have the detent and spring installed. I think as James said the hole on the takedown pin may be bored too deep. I'm going to try the normal takedown pin and see if it works.

James R.
01-14-2007, 8:46 PM
Pull the buttstock off every time I need to take out the takedown pin?

The problem I'm having with the detents is that I can't take out the takedown pin when I have the detent and spring installed. I think as James said the hole on the takedown pin may be bored too deep. I'm going to try the normal takedown pin and see if it works.

LOL of course not, I meant take the buttstock off to solve the problem...not as THE solution to the problem LOL.

Regards,

James R.

Santa Cruz Armory
01-14-2007, 9:32 PM
Ahhh, I had one that was like that as well, I smoothed out the pin tip a little with some fine sand paper and put a little lithium grease on it....now it's a smooth operator ;)

creampuff
01-14-2007, 10:06 PM
Easy Money :).

I'm still having trouble with the detents. I can't tell if they're rounded enough. Both detents are the same as each other, and are the same on both ends. They're somewhat pointed with the end slightly smoothed off. I'm going to try and take pics, but I'm not sure my camera has the macro mode necessary to capture the details.

Whoops sorry DedEye...the takedown detents are usually the same on both sides. I must have been thinking of the selector detent.

five.five-six
01-14-2007, 10:10 PM
Short of ordering some roll pin punches, whats the best tool to remove trigger pins?


go to home depot and buy a 2" 8x32 brass machine screw, it will work in a pinch and won't mare your pin about $1.89 for 2