08-06-2011, 9:14 PM
Good review for Turner's in Reseda:
Chris, the ex-marine, is a good employee, and helped me find exactly what I was looking for. Turner's also allowed me to make a special order, and after finding out that the wait time was greater than expected, allowed me to change my order to something else.
Also, Turner's promptly worked to iron out the wrinkles in the special order and some snags along the way in proof of residency.
08-06-2011, 9:19 PM
Let me preface this by saying that I have written notes concerning this dispute while in Turner's Outdoorsman today, 8/7/11, having them initialed by the store manager, Rick, who witnessed what I wrote, and listened to what I said about what I wrote.
Here is a description of the issues I've had/have with Turner's Outdoorsman in Reseda, CA:
1. I was told that I could take the handgun certification test if I arrived before a certain time, and then the sales girl rescinded her word and attempted to prevent me from taking the test.
2. I was quoted a wait time on a special order of less than 1 month, and made the purchase in good faith.
3. I found out 2 days later that the wait time was actually greater than 6 months, and that a cancellation fee of 30% of the total purchase price would apply if I wanted to cancel the purchase.
4. I was told that I needed proof of residence in the form of current address on driver license, a utility bill, and/or vehicle registration by two different employees, once in person, and once over the phone when I called to verify; upon returning with the requested proof of residence, I was told that I needed my current address on my driver license, and that they had told me this beforehand.
5. I was never told in the first place that, when signing forms for DROS and transfer, that I needed any form of proof of residence at my current address.
6. I was denied a cancellation without fees despite these errors.
In my experience both working in retail, and managing other retail workers, this type of business practice is unacceptable. Honesty, on all fronts, and proper oral communication should be cornerstones of customer service. When upwards of 5 errors are committed, with certain employees committing several errors alone, over a single transaction, the old adage "Where there's smoke, there's fire" applies. It seems that they tried to hustle a sale, and did not hesitate to make me out to be a liar, while inflicting time and monetary expense at my cost, without any attempt to have a reasonable reconciliation, or make peace, as it were. Despite my best efforts to be civil, polite, play by the rules, and follow their instructions, my diligence was not returned; in fact, it was quite the opposite.
Below are what follows of my own descriptions of each aforementioned incident involving some type of dispute.
Told on the phone by receptionist that I can come in for handgun safety test if I arrived before 7:30. I arrived at 7:20, was referred to the front counter to pay for the test. I spoke with the same girl that I talked to on the phone, who I'd told before I drove there that I was coming from ~20 miles away, and told her that it was me who she spoke to and that pursuant to what she said, that I could take the safety test. I made a note of the time, and told her that it was before 7:30, and that the current time was 7:24. She denied, dispute ensued, I asked to speak to a manager, she folded, and gave me the test. I passed the test with a perfect score, talked to a sales manager, and ordered a specific gun, receiving an invoice for my order. I was given the invoice at 7:49 pm, and had my receipt from the register at 7:54 pm. I had time to take the test, talk with a sales person, and make a special order, well before their closing time of 8pm.
Sales assistant Chris, who made the original sale of the Springfield Armory 1911 Mil-Spec handgun, quoted me a wait time of less than 1 month at the time of purchase. I waited until Monday, 7/25/11, to speak with a manager so that he could inquire with his distributor about the status of Springfield's backorders. I was quoted by sales manager Bruce that the wait time is actually greater than 6 months. I told him that I wanted to change my order to a Sig Sauer P220, which they had in stock at their Rancho Cucamonga location, much to my dismay.
I come in to sign the paperwork, and was told then, for the first time, that I needed to provide proof of residence at my current address with my driver license, and either a utility bill or vehicle registration. They never told me to come in with either type of verification of residence, in the first place. I explained to the sales person Rick that I had moved in June of 2010 from a different address in California to my current address, the one that I used when I made the purchase. Rick stated that since the address on my driver license and address on my vehicle registration do not match, that I need to provide a current utility bill matching the address I listed on the original invoice. I complied, and left amicably.
I called in and spoke to Sergio to verify what Rick had told me on 8/2/11, that a print out of my utility bills, with my current address, backdated for >6 months, would be sufficient to satisfy current handgun ownership sales requirements, which I was told would suffice.
I came to the Reseda store, with my driver license, backdated utility bills, and order invoice, whereupon salesman Rick told me that these items I brought as proof of residence were not sufficient, to the contrary of what he (Rick) had told me earlier in the week, also to the contrary of what Sergio had told me over the phone, and that my driver license address must match my utility bill address. I calmly explained to Rick that on 8/2/11, when I talked with him the first time, that he never told me that I needed an updated driver license with my current address. Rick then curtly said that he did make the statement that I needed to go to DMV and get my driver license address updated, and that he says this "20 times a day" (his words) to customers. Rick's allegations are incorrect. On a personal note, if he had told me to go to DMV, I would have done so; I would never have driven there in the first place without this required proof, since my trip to Turner's in Reseda is long, and takes about 2 hours as a round trip.
This is when I decided that it would be in the best interest of my purchasing confidence to cancel the transaction completely, and politely ask for a refund of my initial deposit. Rick told me that the cancellation fees would still apply (30% of the purchase price, which equates to over $300), despite the number of mistakes they had made, the number of trips I had made there, the expense that more trips would cost me, and the inconvenience in dealing with numerous, assorted, and not altogether unexpected, errors.
At this point, I wrote down my specific complaints with the conflicting information I'd received from Rick, the erroneous wait time quoted by Chris, and the actual wait time quoted by Bruce. I wanted to have a record of what occurred between myself and Rick on 8/6/11 and 8/2/11. Rick initialed the notes from our meeting that I took, and verbally read aloud to him. I put my full name and signature, with the date, on the paper, as well. I also put a note on this paper to call Dan on 8/7/11 to discuss the cancellation I want, as advised by Rick.
My notes on the aforementioned paper read as follows:
"Rick- agree to disagree on 8/6/11 regarding proof of residence in matters concerning documentation from DMV, you (Rick) technically did not say to go there (DMV)...
... Chris - <1 month
... Bruce - >6 months (both in reference to the wait times on Springfield Mil-Spec 1911's re: conflicting information)"
After arriving home on 8/6/11, I called Field Time Sports in Westminster, to verify the handgun sales requirements regarding proof of residence. I was told that a California driver license is required, but that the address on it does not have to match the address listed on my utility bills and/or vehicle registration. I don't know who to believe, but intend on seeking advice from the Department of Justice, and my attorney, if necessary, to clarify the issue.
On a personal note, this thread will be deleted pending a positive outcome to this situation. I do not intend on defacing this business' reputation. I write this only because I see problematic customer service that can negatively affect more people than just myself. I'm hoping that, in all fairness, these mistakes by Turner's were not intentional or malicious, and that we can all get along and have a beer together, sometime. I'm a good customer who doesn't haggle, and treat people the way I'd like to be treated, myself.
First its a springfield DUH, second do your one research on what needed to buy a handgun. Seem your at fault as much as Turners was.
08-06-2011, 10:06 PM
I'm going to reply to your post and state something so that others who might disagree with this situation can see and, hopefully, understand, what the point of this thread is.
Business policy, pursuant to Federal Firearms Licensing requirements, require that a firearms retailer, and its employees, abide by all practices required by law to include proper notifications for the licensing of handguns to customers. The fact that I was told different information, or not told information at all, is against this policy.
Good faith in contractual agreements implies that both parties are honest and communicate all required information.
Further, customer service makes a business. I've had poor customer service at this store (not including Chris and Bruce, who I felt did a great job, and were very friendly).
I did inquire about wait times for the Springfield model I ordered, also. I was told that the wait time for the loaded model was greater than 6 months by several different retailers, as well as Springfield Armory's own "Gun Genie" service, but that the wait times for Mil-Spec models were considerably less. That's why I went with the Mil-Spec over the loaded models.
Huh? I don't know of any "handgun licensing" in California or on a Federal level. So, it looks to me like your arguement isn't as strong as you want it to be. Seriously, it's not a retail store's legal responsibility to educate you on every little detail of a purchase before you are even a customer. It is YOUR RESPOSIBILTY to know and understand the laws. I am not defending Turner's at all. I actually have had my own beefs with them in the past. I have been illegally charged some sort of fees before (back before the current management) and have has some really poor and slow customer service. I've been given a lot of wrong legal advise by employees of the Reseda store too. But, except for the 1 month to 6 month thing (which they should be able to rectify by not charging you to CHANGE, not "cancel" your order), I think you need to step up and blame yourself for your lack of education regarding what is required for purchasing a firearm.
08-06-2011, 10:16 PM
There are a few things that we need to sort out so that we can best address your concerns in whole, so please bear with us as we do so.
Availability of Springfield pistols aside, we should address the other issue at hand. You are absolutely correct that you have satisfied CA residency requirements with or without your current address on your CDL by providing one of the CA-allowed documents.
However, ATF requires that prior to the delivery of firearm, that the customer provide an ID that shows the buyer's name, DOB and address- for reference this requirement is listed at the top of page 5 of the 4473. If the CDL does not show the buyer's current address, than a government-issued document can be used to substantiate the current address that is used on the 4473.
PM on it's way so that we can contact you via phone to get this resolved for you quickly.
08-06-2011, 10:29 PM
First its a springfield DUH, second do your one research on what needed to buy a handgun. Seem your at fault as much as Turners was.
First off, you needn't be rude in your response.
OP unfortunately there is a lot involved in purchasing a handgun in CA and sometimes it's very frustrating, especially with a large store where they have a dozen or so employees that work the firearms dept.
Be patient and don't let this discourage you. Sounds like you’re on the right track to getting it resolved.
08-06-2011, 10:40 PM
Thanks for the replies, MrClamper, Turner's Outdoorsman, Cannonneer.
I have perhaps written out my thoughts on this too soon, before talking with the manager I was referred to, today, by sales person Rick. Also, yes, cannonneer, you're right. As a customer, I'm personally responsible for all applicable regulations and laws related to handgun ownership and sales.
Also, I've been PMed by Turner's, who was very pleasant to talk with, who also seemed to have our mutual best interest in mind. They are a good business, and like I said, I don't want to deface their company name. Please delete my quotes in your threads, and your threads, too, so that Turner's business reputation won't be affected by this thread. Thanks,
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