PDA

View Full Version : Punishment for carrying a concealed weapong without a permit?


yf23echo
01-12-2007, 4:00 PM
What can the punishment be if you're caught carrying your own gun concealed without a permit? First time? Second time?...etc. What if it's not even concealed and you're just sporting it around your waste or something? How impossible is it for an average citizen to actually obtain a CCW permit? Now that you know what kind of information i'm looking for, anything else would be appreciated too. Thanks.

Aluisious
01-12-2007, 4:06 PM
The punishment for open carry in urban areas in California is a fairly decent chance of being shot by police, etc.

I wouldn't recommend it.

bwiese
01-12-2007, 4:18 PM
Nonpermitted CCW of a gun that is not DROSed to you is likely charged as a felony - as opposed to usu misdemeanor (when no other 'crimes' are charged - assault, brandishing, etc.).

This is one reason why at least a few of your handguns should be DROSed/reg'd to you (as opposed to all those guns you have from the 70s & 80s that were legally acquired in a "paper-free environment").

donger
01-12-2007, 4:19 PM
The punishment for open carry in urban areas in California is a fairly decent chance of being shot by police, etc.

I wouldn't recommend it.

The OP asked about concealed carry.

Hey aren't you a police officer?

ask80
01-12-2007, 4:23 PM
12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:

(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

(b) Carrying a concealed firearm in violation of this section is punishable, as follows:

(1) Where the person previously has been convicted of any felony, or of any crime made punishable by this chapter, as a felony.

(2) Where the firearm is stolen and the person knew or had reasonable cause to believe that it was stolen, as a felony.

(3) Where the person is an active participant in a criminal street gang, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 186.22, under the Street Terrorism Enforcement and Prevention Act (Chapter 11 (commencing with Section 186.20) of Title 7 of Part 1), as a felony.

(4) Where the person is not in lawful possession of the firearm, as defined in this section, or the person is within a class of persons prohibited from possessing or acquiring a firearm pursuant to Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, as a felony.

(5) Where the person has been convicted of a crime against a person or property, or of a narcotics or dangerous drug violation, by imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

(6) By imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment if both of the following conditions are met:

(A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from that firearm are either in the immediate possession of the person or readily accessible to that person, or the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person is loaded as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12031.

(B) The person is not listed with the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 11106, as the registered owner of that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

(7) In all cases other than those specified in paragraphs (1) to (6), inclusive, by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.

(c) A peace officer may arrest a person for a violation of paragraph (6) of subdivision (b) if the peace officer has probable cause to believe that the person is not listed with the Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 11106 as the registered owner of the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, and one or more of the conditions in subparagraph (A) of paragraph (6) of subdivision (b) is met.

(d) (1) Every person convicted under this section who previously has been convicted of a misdemeanor offense enumerated in Section 12001.6 shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for at least three months and not exceeding six months, or, if granted probation, or if the execution or imposition of sentence is suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be imprisoned in a county jail for at least three months.

(2) Every person convicted under this section who has previously been convicted of any felony, or of any crime made punishable by this chapter, if probation is granted, or if the execution or imposition of sentence is suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be imprisoned in a county jail for not less than three months.

(e) The court shall apply the three-month minimum sentence as specified in subdivision (d) , except in unusual cases where the interests of justice would best be served by granting probation or suspending the imposition or execution of sentence without the minimum imprisonment required in subdivision (d) or by granting probation or suspending the imposition or execution of sentence with conditions other than those set forth in subdivision (d) , in which case, the court shall specify on the record and shall enter on the minutes the circumstances indicating that the interests of justice would best be served by that disposition.

(f) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

(g) For purposes of this section, "lawful possession of the firearm" means that the person who has possession or custody of the firearm either lawfully owns the firearm or has the permission of the lawful owner or a person who otherwise has apparent authority to possess or have custody of the firearm. A person who takes a firearm without the permission of the lawful owner or without the permission of a person who has lawful custody of the firearm does not have lawful possession of the firearm.

(h) (1) The district attorney of each county shall submit annually a report on or before June 30, to the Attorney General consisting of profiles by race, age, gender, and ethnicity of any person charged with a felony or a misdemeanor under this section and any other offense charged in the same complaint, indictment, or information.

(2) The Attorney General shall submit annually, a report on or before December 31, to the Legislature compiling all of the reports submitted pursuant to paragraph (1).

(3) This subdivision shall remain operative until January 1, 2005, and as of that date shall be repealed.

ask80
01-12-2007, 4:24 PM
why would you carry a concealed gun w/o a permit ? unless you're on private land or at your home, that's a dumb idea... you'll probably be charged with a misdemeanor... but u could also get shot... where are u located? some counties are easier to get CCWs.

Kestryll
01-12-2007, 4:27 PM
Carrying a concealed firearm without a permit is a crime and not a recommended thing to do. Bill has explained some of what can happen, from the best-case, a misdemeanor to the worst legal case a felony conviction. Say goodbye to all the firearms you own unless you really luck out.
Al has explained the worst possible case scenario, being shot by an LEO. There's no winners there.

If you have to carry get a license in yor County, move to a County that will give you one or join others in your County to work to improve the laws where you live.

Aluisious
01-12-2007, 4:31 PM
The OP asked about concealed carry.

Hey aren't you a police officer?
He also asked about open carry.

I'm not a cop yet, but there are various common sense things I know to avoid to not antagonize cops.

Stanze
01-12-2007, 4:32 PM
From Packing.org http://www.packing.org/state/california/

Carrying without a Permit/License
Date updated: Jul 29, 2005 @ 9:42 am

California law has a gray area, a de facto quasi-right-to-carry. The state law provides that carrying a concealed weapon (including a knife or blackjack) is a FELONY, however, a clear exception exists. If you are carrying a gun (not a knife!) AND it was legally purchased AND it is registered to you AND you are not a gang member (yes, there is a statutory definition of gang member) AND it is your first such arrest, then concealed carry is a misdemeanor. A typical fine is $200.



So, I'm reading that "de facto quasi-right-to-carry" means that although illegal, if caught carrying w/o a CCW with your own handgun, you're not a gang member and it's your first offense it's a misdemeanor and not the end of the world.

I wonder if after you pay your fine if you'd get your handgun back and if you had to use non-CCW lethal force if the non-CCW status would ding you in court? Would a non-CCW conviction allow you to purchase and possess firearms still?

It's unfortunate that we have to choose to break the law or be a victim. In a life or death situation I'd rather break the law than be dead.

CA needs CCW "Shall issue" reform.

11Z50
01-12-2007, 4:50 PM
As in most CA Laws, there are exceptions. You may carry concealed on your own property and at your business. (not in-between) You may carry concealed if you are in the National Guard and on duty. You may use a weapon, concealed or otherwise, while effecting a lawful citizen's arrest.

By the very nature of concealed carry (ie the gun is concealed), arrests for this section normally happen incident to another violation, such as domestic violence, DUI, loud party, etc. If a normal citizen conceals a handgun and minds his manners, chances are no one, including the cops will ever know. NOTE: I AM NOT ENCOURAGING ANYBODY TO BREAK THE LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But, even if a person is carrying concealed, and there is no other reason for the cops to suspect a crime is going down (see Terry v Ohio) they have no right to check people at random for weapons.

If there are no other issues, no priors, no DV and no other violations, the judge may grant probation, and give the gun back when the probation is done. Not common, but it does happen. Usually the first offense = loss of gun and a few days in jail.

CA SHOOTER
01-12-2007, 5:04 PM
Here you go , everything about CA CCW .
http://californiaccw.org/forums/list.page

ocabj
01-12-2007, 5:14 PM
I think you should apply for a CCW even if you know the department issuing for your city or county is known to decline all applications.

Even if you do carry concealed without a permit, at least you can say you did apply for a permit. Of course, when you get declined, hopefully it's because they simply are a non-issuing attitude dept, and not because you failed a psych exam.

50 Freak
01-12-2007, 5:17 PM
Except the application process is a few hundred bucks. Sucks to spend that and for a big fat NO.

xrMike
01-12-2007, 6:14 PM
What if it's not even concealed and you're just sporting it around your waste or something?You should never sport your gun around your waste! You might get something nasty on it, and it's just plain weird.

The SoCal Gunner
01-12-2007, 7:06 PM
why would you carry a concealed gun w/o a permit ?

I'm sure you and everyone else knows the answer to this question.

It isn't always possible to get a permit and when you live in a society that protects criminals by disarming law-abiding citizens, you may feel the tendency to do things that may violate laws but may save your loved ones and yourself.

hdcd
01-12-2007, 7:16 PM
From Packing.org http://www.packing.org/state/california/



So, I'm reading that "de facto quasi-right-to-carry" means that although illegal, if caught carrying w/o a CCW with your own handgun, you're not a gang member and it's your first offense it's a misdemeanor and not the end of the world.

I wonder if after you pay your fine if you'd get your handgun back and if you had to use non-CCW lethal force if the non-CCW status would ding you in court? Would a non-CCW conviction allow you to purchase and possess firearms still?

It's unfortunate that we have to choose to break the law or be a victim. In a life or death situation I'd rather break the law than be dead.

CA needs CCW "Shall issue" reform.

I've wondered the same thing.. Anyone have real world experience on whether a non-ccw conviction in Orange County given the above scenario would allow you to still purchase and possess firearms?

mattmcg
01-12-2007, 7:32 PM
Nonpermitted CCW of a gun that is not DROSed to you is likely charged as a felony - as opposed to usu misdemeanor (when no other 'crimes' are charged - assault, brandishing, etc.).

This is one reason why at least a few of your handguns should be DROSed/reg'd to you (as opposed to all those guns you have from the 70s & 80s that were legally acquired in a "paper-free environment").

Wow, this seems a bit unreasonable. So essentially if I had owned a handgun prior to the 2000 act that required registration (and never registered it on my own accord) and am caught carrying concealed, the difference between a felony and a misdemeanor charge is the difference between choosing to register on one's own accord and not?

This just seems like the law if flat out flawed. I wonder if this has been challenged or if the DA's realize the inconsistency and use it to their advantage.....

AaronHorrocks
01-12-2007, 7:50 PM
why would you carry a concealed gun w/o a permit ? unless you're on private land or at your home, that's a dumb idea... you'll probably be charged with a misdemeanor... but u could also get shot... where are u located? some counties are easier to get CCWs.

Let's say you're life is in danger because your mom's new boyfriend is a physcopathic stalker, that's in and out of jail, whom has threated your life on numberous occations. Has attemped assault, and is actively trying to hunt you down to kill you. He even calls you and tells you so. Local police aren't much of a help (IE all they do is ask what you did to piss him off), and your desperate attempts if trying to get a CCW go unanswered by the Sheriff's department.

So it's better to be caught with a gun and arrested, than brutally killed. Right?

Bishop
01-12-2007, 8:02 PM
Except the application process is a few hundred bucks. Sucks to spend that and for a big fat NO.

Couple hundred bucks might be a small price to pay to get your request on paper. If you ask for a permit with a good cause of self-defense, and later have to use a gun you carried without a permit to defend yourself, that big fat NO might more valuable that you think.

I'd prefer to say to the judge;
"I tried to get a permit, your honor, but the sheriff said self-defense wasn't a good enough reason. I feared for my life, so I carried illegally."
Instead of;
"Well, I read on teh intarnets that I was going to get declined, so I just carried illegally."

Edit: AaronHorrocks, I've been in that kind of situation. It's very scary. I hope whomever you're talking about (you?) gets through it ok.

James R.
01-12-2007, 8:38 PM
So it's better to be caught with a gun and arrested, than brutally killed. Right?

To quote the old addage, "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

Regards,

James R.

rodgster
01-12-2007, 8:56 PM
IANAL

I believe any non-felony firearms convictions are going to affect your firearm ownership rights for 10 years if not permanent.

BTW in my county, I understand that unless you pony up $100+K to the sheriff's reelection campaign (rangers) or are LE, there will be NO CCWs. How's that for a application fee?

kantstudien
01-12-2007, 9:13 PM
What would the punishment be if you are caught without a weapon at a time you needed it?

hoffmang
01-12-2007, 10:05 PM
Your sherriff's donation number is high by about 30x.

-Gene

bwiese
01-12-2007, 10:25 PM
Wow, this seems a bit unreasonable. So essentially if I had owned a handgun prior to the 2000 act that required registration (and never registered it on my own accord) and am caught carrying concealed, the difference between a felony and a misdemeanor charge is the difference between choosing to register on one's own accord and not?

This just seems like the law if flat out flawed. I wonder if this has been challenged or if the DA's realize the inconsistency and use it to their advantage.....

Not quite - 2000 is irrelevant date. Handguns have had to have been DROSed upon acquisition since Jan. 1 1991, when it became illegal for paperless private party privatge handgun sales to occur. Many folks have handguns acquired before that date that are completely off the record.

This was apparently a side effect of an anti-gang law.

I believe any non-felony firearms convictions are going to affect your firearm ownership rights for 10 years if not permanent.

Simple misdeameanor CCW is not on the list of prohibiting misdemeanors.

five.five-six
01-12-2007, 10:33 PM
Here you go , everything about CA CCW .
http://californiaccw.org/forums/list.page


OK I just registered there

OldWestGambler
01-12-2007, 10:39 PM
Why in the world would you want to carry a firearm illegally? If you want to have that " in trouble" feeling and like you're in jail, just get married. lol.

five.five-six
01-12-2007, 10:49 PM
Why in the world would you want to carry a firearm illegally? If you want to have that " in trouble" feeling and like you're in jail, just get married. lol.

it is cheaper to get a felony expunged and probably quicker too

BTW Do you know why divorce is so expensive?? :confused: :)

ldivinag
01-13-2007, 12:57 AM
because THEY ARE WORTH IT!!!!!!!!! ;)

secretasianman
01-13-2007, 11:17 AM
The problem I see with carrying concealed illegally is that there's always the possibility of being detained and getting a pat-down by LEO.

From what I understand: If you're in an area where a crime was committed, LEOs can detain you and legally do a pat-down for weapons if you even SLIGHTLY fit the description of the suspect.

If you can, try sticking to "good areas" of town and carry a knife. Personally, I don't want to chance losing my firearms or getting something on my record that'll result in me being denied a CCW once I move out of state.

rodgster
01-13-2007, 2:27 PM
Well that's what an SO buddy told me, when I inquired. If it really were 30X less, I'd just do it.



Your sherriff's donation number is high by about 30x.

-Gene

artherd
01-13-2007, 8:19 PM
IANAL

I believe any non-felony firearms convictions are going to affect your firearm ownership rights for 10 years if not permanent.
Actually, misdomenor illegal CCW is not a prohibiting misdomenor.

Felony CCW of course is.

yf23echo
01-15-2007, 6:46 PM
Well you guys pretty much covered everything i was looking for. Thanks alot. I'd answer those people who asked why I would want to carry a weapon, but you guys already pointed out their stupidity to them. So thanks again, that's everything I needed.

Crazed_SS
01-15-2007, 6:58 PM
What would the punishment be if you are caught without a weapon at a time you needed it?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060201/news_7m1salcido.html


The shooting death of 37-year-old Steve Salcido after a confrontation in November over a cigarette in the Gaslamp Quarter has been ruled justifiable homicide, San Diego police said yesterday.

The man arrested in connection with the case will be prosecuted on a charge of carrying a concealed gun without a permit, homicide Lt. Kevin Rooney said.

ETD1010
01-15-2007, 7:04 PM
I know there ARE exceptions to CCW permits becuase I've witnessed them. Also, I dont' care HOW illegal it is, if I've been threatened directly and have a file reported to police, you better believe I'm carrying a concealed weapon w/o a permit.


Also, to the comment about paying a couple hundred bucks... you don't have to pay ANYTHING until they approve your application. Your only available time for failure is the psyche test, failed range test, etc, etc.

jjperl
01-15-2007, 8:58 PM
I'm 23, own a business, I some times carry lots of cash, and I live in a county that is good with issuing permits, but I really don't think I have a chance at getting a ccw because of my age. I've heard 30 (and up) is the magic age.

Do you think issuing officers decriminate based on age? I do.

ask80
01-15-2007, 9:10 PM
what county? i'd say go for it... got nothing to lose...

cxs2
01-15-2007, 9:26 PM
It's unfortunate that we have to choose to break the law or be a victim. In a life or death situation I'd rather break the law than be dead.

Where do you live that makes it necessary for you to defend yourself with lethal force? I am just as pissed with CA with all of the anti-gun laws as anyone else on this forum but I don't see this as a life threatening issue. I do a bit of business in the worst parts of Oakland, legal business, and I have never had a problem. I am not a rival gang member or anything threatening them so why would the kids on the corner want to make trouble with me? Do I go out at night there? Hell no! But I am not in fear of my life during normal hours.

I have to think, if you are carrying a gun you are more apt to get into situations to use it. If you are packing a gun you may act stupider then you would not packing. The gun in your pants is just begging you to be used.

I also have to think that packing a gun would be such a pain in the ***. You have this giant piece of metal you are trying to hide but keep at your finger tips. Walking through the mall with normal people and you have this gun that may be popping out for the families to freak out about and call security.:eek: Ugh….it just seams stupid to me.

ETD1010
01-15-2007, 9:33 PM
Where do you live that makes it necessary for you to defend yourself with lethal force? I am just as pissed with CA with all of the anti-gun laws as anyone else on this forum but I don't see this as a life threatening issue. I do a bit of business in the worst parts of Oakland, legal business, and I have never had a problem. I am not a rival gang member or anything threatening them so why would the kids on the corner want to make trouble with me? Do I go out at night there? Hell no! But I am not in fear of my life during normal hours.

I have to think, if you are carrying a gun you are more apt to get into situations to use it. If you are packing a gun you may act stupider then you would not packing. The gun in your pants is just begging you to be used.

I also have to think that packing a gun would be such a pain in the ***. You have this giant piece of metal you are trying to hide but keep at your finger tips. Walking through the mall with normal people and you have this gun that may be popping out for the families to freak out about and call security.:eek: Ugh….it just seams stupid to me.


Are you serious?

hoffmang
01-15-2007, 9:42 PM
Clearly cxs2 has never concealed a .380 about the person...

-Gene

red bear
01-15-2007, 10:19 PM
Where do you live that makes it necessary for you to defend yourself with lethal force? I am just as pissed with CA with all of the anti-gun laws as anyone else on this forum but I don't see this as a life threatening issue. I do a bit of business in the worst parts of Oakland, legal business, and I have never had a problem. I am not a rival gang member or anything threatening them so why would the kids on the corner want to make trouble with me? ...just seams stupid to me.
You sound like a future speck on our police blotter. It may be only a matter of time before one of these "kids" decides he'd like to test drive your car, "use" your phone to trade for a $10 rock, or that he's seen you once to often around there so you must be a narc.

I just this minute heard a BOLO on a carjacking out of Oakland where the suspects were 4 BMAs or Js who had shot their victims. This crap happens all the time, not just in Oakland, but SL, Hayward, and all around here. And not jst at night. My best buddy's brother was shot and killed on the SL/CV/Hayward border – not considered a "bad" area – for no apparent reason on his way to work at 6am.

You gotta live your life, but you take the risks that go with it.

The SoCal Gunner
01-15-2007, 10:37 PM
I'm 23, own a business, I some times carry lots of cash, and I live in a county that is good with issuing permits, but I really don't think I have a chance at getting a ccw because of my age. I've heard 30 (and up) is the magic age.

Do you think issuing officers decriminate based on age? I do.

I believe someone in Orange County recently got a CCW and he is 22.

ETD1010
01-15-2007, 11:07 PM
Clearly cxs2 has never concealed a .380 about the person...

-Gene

heck, or even those ridiculously small NAA mini-revolvers... I love those things.

hoffmang
01-15-2007, 11:31 PM
On a more serious note....

What I've found is that when I am carrying concealed in a legal manner, I am FAR less likely to get into something with someone.

1. The attitude I project is one of quiet confidence. You can call me any name in the book and it really doesn't matter. I generally have the upper hand in the situation and "words can never hurt me." That quiet confidence tends to lower aggression presented to me.

2. Because I assume I have the upper hand and because I really do not care to do something that will cause real harm and lead me to spend involuntary time with law enforcement (even if I'm right) I tend to do lots of things to de-escalate a situation. Calling me any name in the book or threatening me with physical violence is nothing compared to the choices I make when armed. It is much easier for me to take a step back if someone threatens me and ask again for that person to disengage than it is to do that when unarmed and not comfortable that I can hold my own in a fight that might come.

Its a different version of peace through strength.

-Gene

ETD1010
01-15-2007, 11:34 PM
On a more serious note....

What I've found is that when I am carrying concealed in a legal manner, I am FAR less likely to get into something with someone.

1. The attitude I project is one of quiet confidence. You can call me any name in the book and it really doesn't matter. I generally have the upper hand in the situation and "words can never hurt me." That quiet confidence tends to lower aggression presented to me.

2. Because I assume I have the upper hand and because I really do not care to do something that will cause real harm and lead me to spend involuntary time with law enforcement (even if I'm right) I tend to do lots of things to de-escalate a situation. Calling me any name in the book or threatening me with physical violence is nothing compared to the choices I make when armed. It is much easier for me to take a step back if someone threatens me and ask again for that person to disengage than it is to do that when unarmed and not comfortable that I can hold my own in a fight that might come.

Its a different version of peace through strength.

-Gene

That is an excellent way of perceiving that situation. :) makes perfect sense.

jjperl
01-16-2007, 1:55 AM
I live in Santa Barbara, but I work all over SoCal. I'm in the concession business and deal with pretty weird/crazy/tweaked out people some times, not to mention I only deal in cash. But the worst part of it is I work in some areas I don't know well and have a reputation of having high levels of crime.

When I think about it it's a little scary pulling into an empty gas station or parking lot at night somewhere after a show knowing that thousands of people have seen me take in money all day, and to think that any one of them could have followed me to kill me and/or rob me blind.

This is why you carry right? you just never know what might happen... one minute your chillin and the next your a crime statistic in a book stuffed away on some jerkoff politicians dusty book case somewhere. All I know is that I don't want to have to break the law to save or protect my life, I would rather do it legaly, but I just don't see it happening. F'n Kalifornia! :mad:

jjperl
01-16-2007, 2:59 AM
Where do you live that makes it necessary for you to defend yourself with lethal force? I am just as pissed with CA with all of the anti-gun laws as anyone else on this forum but I don't see this as a life threatening issue. I do a bit of business in the worst parts of Oakland, legal business, and I have never had a problem. I am not a rival gang member or anything threatening them so why would the kids on the corner want to make trouble with me? Do I go out at night there? Hell no! But I am not in fear of my life during normal hours.

I have to think, if you are carrying a gun you are more apt to get into situations to use it. If you are packing a gun you may act stupider then you would not packing. The gun in your pants is just begging you to be used.

I also have to think that packing a gun would be such a pain in the *** You have this giant piece of metal you are trying to hide but keep at your finger tips. Walking through the mall with normal people and you have this gun that may be popping out for the families to freak out about and call security.:eek: Ugh….it just seams stupid to me.

No offence but Man, I couldn't think of a better sterotypical anti-ccw responce than this.

First of all, "the gun in [my] pants [will not beg me] to be used." I have money in my wallet and it doesn't beg me to spend it, nor does the knife in my pocket.

Second, "packing a gun would [not] be such a pain in the ***", especially if my life depended on it. Becides, I wouldn't even consider carrying a gun that remotely resembles a "giant piece of metal."

Third, you mention "walking through the mall with normal people and you have this gun that may be popping out." Sir, what is your definetion of normalcy? Am I not "normal" because I want to protect myself with a mechanical device that will insure my greatest chance of survival if and only if my life or physical wellbeing depended on it? :confused:

I may not be the smartest kid on the block, but I am smart enough to know that survival is a crucial all encompassing aspect of life that can not be over looked with out dire consequences.

We live to survive, and we survive to live.

Jeffrock
01-17-2007, 2:56 PM
Where do you live that makes it necessary for you to defend yourself with lethal force?
Well, if you must know I have had two people pull guns out on me and try to rob me. Once on Sunset+Laurel (neighboring million dollar homes) and once in the 900 block of the Beverly Hills flats ($8+ million homes)
Please take your nonsense of not needing to defend yourself with lethal force elsewhere.

artherd
01-17-2007, 9:23 PM
Where do you live that makes it necessary for you to defend yourself with lethal force?

Do I go out at night there? Hell no! But I am not in fear of my life during normal hours.
I am just going to let this stand on it's own merrits.


I will only add that carrying a firearm legally has caused me to go to great and incredible legenths to de-escalate and dis-engauge in threatening situations. This is in stark contrast to the cowboy mentality you suggest.

The SoCal Gunner
01-18-2007, 8:22 AM
Where do you live that makes it necessary for you to defend yourself with lethal force? I am just as pissed with CA with all of the anti-gun laws as anyone else on this forum but I don't see this as a life threatening issue. I do a bit of business in the worst parts of Oakland, legal business, and I have never had a problem. I am not a rival gang member or anything threatening them so why would the kids on the corner want to make trouble with me? Do I go out at night there? Hell no! But I am not in fear of my life during normal hours.

I have to think, if you are carrying a gun you are more apt to get into situations to use it. If you are packing a gun you may act stupider then you would not packing. The gun in your pants is just begging you to be used.

I also have to think that packing a gun would be such a pain in the ***. You have this giant piece of metal you are trying to hide but keep at your finger tips. Walking through the mall with normal people and you have this gun that may be popping out for the families to freak out about and call security.:eek: Ugh….it just seams stupid to me.

I envy you for being able to live in such a safe world.