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View Full Version : Reloading; is this a valid argument to determine carry gun?


NoJoke
08-04-2011, 5:23 PM
Just responding to another post re: LCR / LCP
Someone mentioned that the LCP is better cuz its faster to reload.
However, on average, how many rounds are used in most self defense scenarios?

I'll admit that in theory, having a plethora of lead would be cool, but what do actual stats say in terms of number of rounds fired on average?

MongooseV8
08-04-2011, 6:10 PM
From what I have read and been told most firefights are low in rounds fired and last way under 1 minute. I dont know the average rounds fired but I just remember it being less than your typical magazine holds.

JeremyS
08-04-2011, 6:10 PM
I think it's just 2-3, statistically, but people say the likelyhood of multiple-person encounters is higher "nowadays."

I don't think I would want to rely on statistics to help me in a gun fight though. There are way too many variables, and each scenario where you would actually have to fire your gun is going to be its own unique thing.

stix213
08-04-2011, 6:24 PM
Average is a poor standard. Deviations from average can be huge.

On average when speeding you don't get a ticket. On average you don't need to fill up your gas tank on a given day. On average the Dow Jones doesn't plummet over 500 points on a given day. On average you don't need to go to the doctor for any reason each day. On average New Orleans is not flooded from a hurricane. On average you'll never need a gun to protect yourself.

On average you won't need more than 5 rounds to save your life.....

InGrAM
08-04-2011, 6:38 PM
The more ammo the better. And the faster you can reload = faster you can defend yourself again. But it all comes down to what you like more, shoot better, and are more comfortable with. With a cc gun it is all about shootablity and concealment, it is a balancing act between those two. I wouldn't worry about what is "easier" or "faster" to reload because with practice you'll be just fine with either.

G60
08-04-2011, 7:14 PM
I've also heard 3 rounds is the average.

oddjob
08-04-2011, 8:01 PM
If you want to get a decent perspective read the NRA's American Rifleman. There is a monthly section dealing with citizens defending themselves. The rounds fired are low (2-3).

I'm a retired LEO and my CCW gun is a 5 or 6 shot revolver. I might carry a speed strip with me. Right now I carry a Walther PPK .380 and no reloads. I probably should carry a reload though (I'll admit it).

A friend of mine who is also retired LEO carries a Sig 226 (40 cal) and a reload. We both live in the same area and he wears a photographer's vest with a shirt underneath to conceal his stuff (even on hot days). He wears long pants all the time. I wear shorts and a t-shirt thus the PPK in a pocket holster.

Of the LEO's I know who CCW the above friend is the only one I know who carries a reload. I do carry a reload when traveling long distance

elSquid
08-04-2011, 8:29 PM
I thought that this was interesting...from Hackathorn:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showpost.php?p=2987178&postcount=9

-- Michael

NoJoke
08-04-2011, 9:06 PM
As we all know, there is a huge variety of variables.

What's more reliable, a revolver or a semi-auto?

I prefer the revolver but was wondering out loud if I'm unnecessarily leaving myself at risk w/ the lower round count.

End of the day, if I pull the trigger, I want it to go boom. Therefore in my line of thinking, I'll sacrifice a couple of rounds for the revolver option.

But who really knows.................????? :confused:

oddjob
08-04-2011, 9:21 PM
My two carry revolvers are full steel and are heavy (for me). My Walther is lighter so thats what I carry now. If I had a SW 442 or a LCR I would probably carry the revolver. Just my opinion, but I do believe in a comfortable carry. I also like the hammerless (or internal hammer) feature of small light revolvers. I can carry it in my coat pocket and fire through my coat pocket without a malfunction (if I had to). If you can find an old coat try it. I think you may be surprised how easy it is to use the revolver that way. I think the small revolver is more versatile in a variety of CCW situations. The .38 is also a harder "hitter" than the .380.

InGrAM
08-04-2011, 9:59 PM
As we all know, there is a huge variety of variables.

What's more reliable, a revolver or a semi-auto?

I prefer the revolver but was wondering out loud if I'm unnecessarily leaving myself at risk w/ the lower round count.

End of the day, if I pull the trigger, I want it to go boom. Therefore in my line of thinking, I'll sacrifice a couple of rounds for the revolver option.

But who really knows.................????? :confused:

This is very true. Give me a gun that works every time and ill throw away any other in a time of need. But semi autos are not what they used to be. Guns like the glock series, and the M&P are just as reliable as any revolver IMO and with these guns it is not just a few rounds over a revolver it is double the capacity at the least.

Ubermcoupe
08-04-2011, 10:43 PM
Yes, reloading could be an issue.

IF one plans to use their gun in a sustained type environment, a reloadable HG may be necessary.
If all one needs to just get away is 5/6/8 shots than a good wheel gun will suffice.

joefreas
08-04-2011, 10:51 PM
I have yet to hear of a CCW situation where shots were fired that the shooter had to reload.

PRCABR4Christ
08-04-2011, 10:55 PM
3 shots are generally the number of shots fired during the average encounter, including police shootings...it's always a plus to have more available though if needed, luckily 1911's hold 7+1 (although newer type mags can hold 8+1) :D

NoJoke
08-05-2011, 8:01 AM
IF one plans to use their gun in a sustained type environment,.

I guess this is the meat of my question. What exactly is this "type of an environment" ...in an actual self defense situation. :confused::confused::confused:

Molby242
08-05-2011, 8:55 AM
This guy had to be shot 8 times to be put down.

lPEiRQoALcs

This is your worst case scenario, where the suspect/intruder/BG is hopped up on drugs or in some other form of mind altering state and doesn't feel pain in the normal sense. The only option then is to rely on your rounds causing enough shock to the body where it doesn't want to function and goes down.

In a defense course I recently attended, the instructors never told us the number of rounds we should fire during intrusion scenarios. We were simply told to put as many rounds as we thought necessary to "stop the threat". That being said, we have to be aware of our targets before, during and after the discharge of our weapons. Just b/c he fell to the ground after after 2-3 shots, does that mean he can't get back up?

In the end, it's all based on your comfort level. If you think 2/4/6/20 rounds is enough, then that's the decision you have to live with. Do you think the number of rounds you carry will do the job while factoring in the possibility of missing due to the heightened stress of the situation? (suspect in the vid above was shot 8 times, but from audio in a 2nd video, i counted no less then 14 rounds being fired. keep in mind these were all fired within 5yrds and by trained professionals)

Personally, I don't prepare for "best case scenarios", I prepare for the worst.
/$0.02

someR1
08-05-2011, 9:19 AM
it is the reassurance that makes me feel better
would I like to be able to load faster? Yes.
would I like to have more rounds in the chamber? For sure.

stormy_clothing
08-05-2011, 9:29 AM
Think about your carry gun it's something your going to have with you when you come home at night to a dark house when you walk into a bank ect ect ect.

In shootouts trained officers are averaging 3 hits in 10 rounds - if you can manage even that level of accuracy and there is more than 2 people do the math.

also at home you may not be able to see someone directly because of lighting or they are hiding and unlike a police officer you may have to shoot at something 25 feet away that you can't see - again maybe 2-3 people are robbing your house.

I would highly recommend a small glock with night sights for carry and where your not CCW like at home a +2 or +3 extended mag if you have them for your carry pistol.

Also I'd like to point out that there have been incidents where a person was shot by an officer over 20 times with a 40 caliber weapon and still continued to shoot back.

oddjob
08-05-2011, 10:05 AM
Predicting a "CCW needed" incident is like predicting your next car accident. Can't be done. If you "knew" you were going to be in an accident you would drive the biggest vehicle you can find to protect yourself/family. But that can be expensive, and impractical ......so you drive what you have and take precautions as you see fit.

NoJoke
08-05-2011, 10:07 AM
Think about your carry gun it's something your going to have with you when you come home at night to a dark house when you walk into a bank ect ect ect.

In shootouts trained officers are averaging 3 hits in 10 rounds - if you can manage even that level of accuracy and there is more than 2 people do the math.

also at home you may not be able to see someone directly because of lighting or they are hiding and unlike a police officer you may have to shoot at something 25 feet away that you can't see - again maybe 2-3 people are robbing your house.

I would highly recommend a small glock with night sights for carry and where your not CCW like at home a +2 or +3 extended mag if you have them for your carry pistol.

Also I'd like to point out that there have been incidents where a person was shot by an officer over 20 times with a 40 caliber weapon and still continued to shoot back.

Good points.
High stress = low accuracy.
I guess my counter would be:
High stress = low technical proficiency also - meaning that w/ a semi-auto I need to remember to check safety, rack the slide etc. I have little ones so I'm still not good with the idea of one in the chamber ready to rock n roll.
I've learned the hard way in life, the KISS rule - and its a hard rule to beat.

Maybe just carry a backup revolver! :D

DannyInSoCal
08-05-2011, 10:21 AM
As we all know, there is a huge variety of variables.

What's more reliable, a revolver or a semi-auto?

I prefer the revolver but was wondering out loud if I'm unnecessarily leaving myself at risk w/ the lower round count.

End of the day, if I pull the trigger, I want it to go boom. Therefore in my line of thinking, I'll sacrifice a couple of rounds for the revolver option.

But who really knows.................????? :confused:

8 shot S&W 357 - Problem solved...

CK_32
08-05-2011, 10:43 AM
Get a glock. If you already "have" a 30 round mag for it wink then you won't have to reload :D

And as reliable as any other if not more against those nay sayers.

CK_32
08-05-2011, 10:44 AM
Good points.
High stress = low accuracy.
I guess my counter would be:
High stress = low technical proficiency also - meaning that w/ a semi-auto I need to remember to check safety, rack the slide etc. I have little ones so I'm still not good with the idea of one in the chamber ready to rock n roll.
I've learned the hard way in life, the KISS rule - and its a hard rule to beat.

Maybe just carry a backup revolver! :D

And with a glock your trigger pull is the saftey :D

Just sayin hahahha


Yes I am selling glock because I just bought one but hey these are facts!

starsnuffer
08-05-2011, 10:55 AM
From what I recall from my last defensive pistol class, most firefights involve the shooter firing far more rounds then they recall firing (this includes LEO). I think it's safe to assume that the person doing the shooting is going to more or less empty their weapon, however it is rare that they would actually reload (plan on click,click,click oh fu@#$ I better reload).

I guess that's more of an argument for capacity then reload ease, but it's moot in California.

-W

Kanoodler
08-05-2011, 4:59 PM
The ability to be able to do a speedy reload is absolutely important, and SHOULD be considered when choosing a weapon for defense!!.............

With RELIABILITY of the weapon being the FIRST thing.

And ACCURACY and CONTROLLABILITY being NEXT in importance.

Followed somewhere along the way by a speedy reload.




And how do I know?..........I work on a road crew in Oakland!! We see this played out in front of us every couple of months!

scarville
08-05-2011, 7:05 PM
However, on average, how many rounds are used in most self defense scenarios?
Dunno. I don't know who keeps those kinds of statistics. This claims to be a summary of accounts published in The Armed Citizen:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328876

aklon
08-05-2011, 7:55 PM
FWIW:

Back when the FBI was re-evaluating handguns and their effectiveness (after they lost two agents in Florida), they did an exhaustive study of not just guns and ballistics, but also of every recorded instance of a gun fight they could find.

As I remember it, the FBI says the average gun fight takes place at a range of seven yards or less and three shots are fired.

This squares neatly with what Jeff Cooper used to say: "If you need more than three shots, you're not in a gun fight, you're in a war!"

FatOnCoke
08-06-2011, 3:58 PM
I would say 3 shots for calm civilian encounters and 2 magazines for police shootings.

I would think accuracy and damage under pressure is most important. Reloading speed is not that important. I would reload while retreating.

Gun fights with multiple people? How about kung fu? You think you are in HEAT!

If you encounter 3 guys and you shot one twice. What would the other 2 do? Haul *ss! Always consider human reactions. Think like criminals… They didn’t come to kidnap or for an assassination.

If you know you hit him and he is still shooting back, get out of the way. You don’t care if that guy craws a block. Give some time for the shots to take effect.