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View Full Version : What Scopes/Sights Would You Put On You're First Rifle???


MuNgEr
01-12-2007, 12:39 PM
Need help, here is the scenario....

You are new to rifles and have just purchased your first, Rock River Predator Pursuit Rifle with Daniel Defense light 12 rail.

You will be taking rifle classes to learn distance shooting and tactical/practical rifle use. Consequently, you will need to remove the Sniper scope for the more tactical/practical portions of courses.

You have shot your Piggy Bank and its bleeding out in the corner, so you must decide an "either or" question.....

Do you buy a Sniper Scope AND quality flip up Iron Sights, OR a Sniper Scope AND an EOTech/Aimpoint (or Clones) to swap out for those classes???



One benefit to the EOTech/Aimpoint (or Clones) route is that it could also be used on your M4 SG.....
If you think the EOTech/Aimpoint (or Clones) route is the way to go, which would you get?

I greatly appreciate your input:)

cseabass
01-12-2007, 12:47 PM
i like the loopy CQTs or ta01 acogs myself. eotechs arnt bad, but honestly, i dont like relying batteries. ill deal with them, but its annoying. oh and i used my buddies m4gery with a 512(i had a 552 that i never used) and didnt like it... but then i fondled a UMP and sent a couple rounds down range with a 512 and loved it.

i have fondled a AP ml2 on a 16in m4gery and wasnt impressed.

also what do you mean by a "sniper scope"?

maxicon
01-12-2007, 12:48 PM
Well, if your electronics fail or your scope gets busted, you'll need iron sights. I'd consider them essential for a tactical weapon.

You can also shoot distance with iron sights, as well as with an Eotech or Aimpoint. Not well, mind you, but they'll work. It's pretty hard to do tactical with magnified optics, especially above 4x.

I'd seriously consider an Eotech and iron sights if it were me. If money were really tight, I'd go for a Bushnell Holosight or one of the Aimpoint clones, knowing they can be replaced later.

James R.
01-12-2007, 12:49 PM
i like the loopy CQTs or ta01 acogs myself. eotechs arnt bad, but honestly, i dont like relying batteries. ill deal with them, but its annoying. oh and i used my buddies m4gery with a 512(i had a 552 that i never used) and didnt like it... but then i fondled a UMP and sent a couple rounds down range with a 512 and loved it.

i have fondled a AP ml2 on a 16in m4gery and wasnt impressed.

also what do you mean by a "sniper scope"?

Ughh you throw some AA Lithiums into an EOTech and I challenge you to run the batteries down in any reasonable time frame. If you accidentally leave it on it'll turn off in either 4 or 8 hours IIRC depending on if you turned it on using the down button or the up button.

I carry an extra set of Lithium AA's in the Magpul MIAD grip...Li Ion batteries are super light as well...

Regards,

James R.

ocabj
01-12-2007, 1:01 PM
I'm partial to the Aimpoint:

http://www.ocabj.net/photos/firearms_personal/colt_sporter_01t.jpg

If you're buying optics to fit the courses you want to take, you're going to most likely need to buy two different optics, one for each precision and tactical/urban rifle. Most likely what the courses require will be something that does not fit the other. Yes, I can hit the 6" X-ring on the MR-1 target at 600 yards, and so can most guys shooting NRA high power. But the precision rifle courses you look at are going to require some sort of magnified optic, 9x or better. The tactical rifle courses you take will most likely require irons or a fast acquisition type of sight, and that's going to be a red dot or reflex sight (if not irons).

If my one and only rifle was the RRA Predator Pursuit, I'd get a scope and a red dot and swap between the two.

Personally, in a one rifle only situation, I would have went with a 16" upper with an Acog rather than the RRA Predator, since it would be able to fit the DMR style role better. It gives reasonable accuracy at 600 yards with 77gr ammo and can still be used for close range work. That or an 18" SPR configuration like the one I built then parted out to fund my highpower competition gun:

http://www.ocabj.net/gallery/albums/mk12mod1_upper_with_optics_mounted/IMG_4143.sized.jpg

cseabass
01-12-2007, 1:09 PM
Ughh you throw some AA Lithiums into an EOTech and I challenge you to run the batteries down in any reasonable time frame. If you accidentally leave it on it'll turn off in either 4 or 8 hours IIRC depending on if you turned it on using the down button or the up button.

I carry an extra set of Lithium AA's in the Magpul MIAD grip...Li Ion batteries are super light as well...

Regards,

James R.


and what happens when you really need it and havent replaced the batteries? yeah they last a long time, but after a few good shooting sessions... and sure you have an extra set in the miad(as did i) but in an emergency situation, will you have time to lift the latch, pop the old batts out drop the miad bottom and swap the batts, then load them back up and drop the lever?

i like eotechs, but i wouldnt have one on my combat weapon.


as others have stated, learn your irons first.

proraptor
01-12-2007, 1:15 PM
get iron sights...

James R.
01-12-2007, 1:19 PM
and what happens when you really need it and havent replaced the batteries? yeah they last a long time, but after a few good shooting sessions... and sure you have an extra set in the miad(as did i) but in an emergency situation, will you have time to lift the latch, pop the old batts out drop the miad bottom and swap the batts, then load them back up and drop the lever?

i like eotechs, but i wouldnt have one on my combat weapon.


as others have stated, learn your irons first.

Good thing I have BUIS ;-)

C'mon, most of us here are poking holes in paper down at the local range...the worry about batteries are unfounded. Plenty of guys running around in the sandbox with EOTech's and Aimpoints (which have downright silly battery life) doing the real ***** w/o worrying about stuff that simply isn't worth worrying about. If anything the real worry should be about it breaking or malfunctioning electronically rather than worrying about dead batts.

In any event, both of my built up AR's have irons, in fact the latest has nothing but irons and I may just leave it that way.

Regards,

James R.

MuNgEr
01-12-2007, 3:22 PM
OUTSTANDING INPUT!!

Thanks guys, I think I will go with a Super Sniper 10 and and Arms flip up rear and a YHM Gas Block Mounted Front Flip Sight to learn the basics:)

ocabj- I chose that rifle so I could learn to reach out reasonably far but still be able to cary it. I will likely use my M4 SG for any real life tactical/practical situations (and the Predator is 2" shorter than my Benelli, & weighs in at just .5 lbs more than the shotty [8lbs]). Is my thinking sound or should I see if I can change the order?

Opinions?

ocabj
01-12-2007, 4:08 PM
OUTSTANDING INPUT!!

Thanks guys, I think I will go with a Super Sniper 10 and and Arms flip up rear and a YHM Gas Block Mounted Front Flip Sight to learn the basics:)

ocabj- I chose that rifle so I could learn to reach out reasonably far but still be able to cary it. I will likely use my M4 SG for any real life tactical/practical situations (and the Predator is 2" shorter than my Benelli, & weighs in at just .5 lbs more than the shotty [8lbs]). Is my thinking sound or should I see if I can change the order?

Opinions?

My one concern on learning how to shoot with irons is that BUIS don't have elevation adjustments on the rear sight. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know of any rear sight flip up BUIS that has rear elevation adjustments.

As far as the rifle selection and application, how far is reasonably far? 600 yards. If your M4 is a 16" barrel with a 1-7" twist and Wylde or NATO chamber, that would have been more than sufficient for up to 600 yards with 77gr loads.

The Predator's 20" 1 in 8" twist Wylde barrel should make it to 1000 yards. You'll want VLDs for this, though. You need to push the bullets fast at max pressure in the gun (just below the realm of overpressure signs). I'm not sure if 80s will be enough. Someone with 1000 yard service rifle experience will need to bring input here, since I'm not sure if the Army is using 80 or 90gr bullets for 1000 yard service rifle. The problem here is that the 1-8" twist in the Predator won't be enough for the 90gr bullets, so you'll have to stick with 80s. But definitely go with Berger VLDs. Obviously, you have to single load the 80s.

SgtBulldog
01-12-2007, 4:37 PM
Elevation adjustments are the reason why I opted for a fixed BUIS rather than a flip-up type. Plus, I'm just partial to that style after carrying an M16A2 for a few years and probably won't be using a scope much anyway. :)

However, I do believe that the MATECH BUIS does have elevation adjustments.

icormba
01-12-2007, 4:50 PM
Learn to use your iron sights. Learn to use a basic set up under proper instruction.

Then put your electronic or reticled sighting device on once you've mastered basic theory (Sight alignment, the advantage of consistent cheek weld, hold over/under at distance etc.).

Gotta learn to walk before you can run.

What Ted said!

MuNgEr
01-12-2007, 4:51 PM
My one concern on learning how to shoot with irons is that BUIS don't have elevation adjustments on the rear sight. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know of any rear sight flip up BUIS that has rear elevation adjustments.

As far as the rifle selection and application, how far is reasonably far? 600 yards. If your M4 is a 16" barrel with a 1-7" twist and Wylde or NATO chamber, that would have been more than sufficient for up to 600 yards with 77gr loads.

The Predator's 20" 1 in 8" twist Wylde barrel should make it to 1000 yards. You'll want VLDs for this, though. You need to push the bullets fast at max pressure in the gun (just below the realm of overpressure signs). I'm not sure if 80s will be enough. Someone with 1000 yard service rifle experience will need to bring input here, since I'm not sure if the Army is using 80 or 90gr bullets for 1000 yard service rifle. The problem here is that the 1-8" twist in the Predator won't be enough for the 90gr bullets, so you'll have to stick with 80s. But definitely go with Berger VLDs. Obviously, you have to single load the 80s.

Thanks for the input. The M4 is my Benelli shotgun with 18" barrel, which I have shoot 3" slugs accurately in classes quite far (but not hundreds of yards hence my desire to learn the arts of the rifle).

I think some folding sights offer windage
YMH=http://yankeehill.bizland.com/store/product242.html
ARMS=http://www.armsmounts.com/catalog.php?action=110&cat_id=4
I chose the 20" Predator because of the accuracy (3/4 MOA @ 100 like the Bull 24" Varmint, their website is a misprint at 1 MOA) but shorter and lighter.
Should I still consider a 16" even with the Shotty?

ocabj
01-12-2007, 5:08 PM
Thanks for the input. The M4 is my Benelli shotgun with 18" barrel, which I have shoot 3" slugs accurately in classes quite far (but not hundreds of yards hence my desire to learn the arts of the rifle).

I think some folding sights offer windage http://yankeehill.bizland.com/store/product242.html
I chose the 20" Predator because of the accuracy (3/4 MOA @ 100 like the Bull 24") but shorter and lighter. Should I still consider a 16" even with the Shotty? What do you think of the Super Sniper Scopes?

Ah, sorry. I didn't realize you were referring to the Benelli. If you have money to spend, a 16" or 18" is nice for short to midrange work. If you already have the Predator, just work with it until you decide you need something different.

As far as the Super Sniper, I never had one. I have a couple Bushnell Elite 3200 10x fixed mildot scopes. Best deal on a low cost mildot scope because it still retains quality (you should still be able to get them for $160 with a C&R discount). Anyway, I've never owned an SS scope, but people seem happy with them.

C.G.
01-12-2007, 5:17 PM
My one concern on learning how to shoot with irons is that BUIS don't have elevation adjustments on the rear sight. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know of any rear sight flip up BUIS that has rear elevation adjustments.


There are several manufacturers of BUIS with elevation and wind adjustments: Armalite, Matech, Knight's Armament, Wilson and JP Enterprises.

mltrading
01-12-2007, 5:41 PM
Get some BUIS and get a 4X or 6X scope. You don't need a 9X-20X for a 16" BBL.

Rear BUIS: ARMS #40L/LSP, KAC, MI....
Front sight: YHM, PRI......