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View Full Version : Double Action Revolver on Single Action Frame Roster Exempt...?


ZirconJohn
08-03-2011, 1:22 PM
MOD's; If this the wrong forum, please move as you will... it's okay -
Thank you for your hard work :thumbsup:

Calling also Librarian... help us please... you are our only hope!

I called the DOJ and talk to Rene... she is very nice... awesome lady, but no
definitive answer. And I have a call [message] for Bob Barthold of DOJ... he
will be calling in a couple hours. But I want an answer from my CalGuns
community... sound good?

Here is our problem: I have a client, a member here on CalGuns... and
we want to get this revolver in from out of State... it is NOT Curio Relic.
The revolver is a single action frame i.e. NOT a swing-out cylinder. It is a
single action style loading gate. Does this mean CA Roster Exempt...?

Here is link to DOJ Page; 12125 thru 12133 Handgun Safety Testing (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12125.php)

See pictures and description here:
Here is the GunBroker.com link to the Harrington & Richardson 976 - 22 LR (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=243695853)

Serious CA Roster aficionados need only apply please... I need an definitive
answer so I can send my FFL and get this man his revolver...! :yes:

redcliff
08-03-2011, 1:53 PM
It's a double action revolver. Unfortunately it needs to be made roster exempt by converting it to single-action to sell it to a non-exempt buyer. The fact that it isn't top-break or swing-out cylinder is irrelevant in regards to what the action type is.

I'm sure you knew this but wanted moral support :)

ZirconJohn
08-03-2011, 1:57 PM
Ya well... that's what I thought too... so yes, perhaps moral support to some degree.

However, when I called DOJ yesterday and talked to Rene... she was
like... "uhhh ya, well... as I read it looks like you are good to go" - But then
added "...I'mmmmm prettyyyyy sure about that" :shrug:

Flintlock Tom
08-03-2011, 1:58 PM
The revolver you reference is a double-action revolver and therefore not exempt from the roster (via the single-action exemption).
Single-action/double-action refers to the functioning of the trigger, not how the revolver is loaded. It has nothing to do with a swing-out cylinder or the loading gate.

bwiese
08-03-2011, 2:35 PM
As has been stated here & and in my many previous posts about Roster exemption, the term "single-action revolver"
referred to in the 12133PC Roster exemption refers to the ACTION (operational cycle) ONLY - not the 'style' or 'design'.

'Single action revolver' status means ONLY a separate cocking and separate firing action are required [and that a single
trigger pull cannot perform both.]

Other aspects are irrelevant - except for further 12133PC dimensional compliance aspects (and holding 5 or more rounds).

So:


Single-action revolver status does NOT mean "it looks like a cowboy gun'. The Smith & Wesson 14-3
factory single-action revolver looks like a standard S&W DA wheelgun, but takes a separate cocking
motion and separate trigger pull motion to fire.
.
Single-action revolver status has NO relevance to whether or not a loading gate + non tilt-out cylinder
vs. a tilt-out cylinder on a yoke/crane setup is used. The method of loading/unloading is an entirely
separate aspect from single-action status.
.
Single-action revolver status does NOT depend or vary upon which action rotates the cylinder. In Colt
and Ruger etc. single-action 'cowboy'-look revolvers, the hammer cock rotates the cylinder. In the S&W
14-3 factory single-action revolver, the full trigger pull rotates the cylinder (but does not raise hammer).

I believe there is a gunsmith that did some kinda DA conversion on Ruger / Colt cowboy revolvers decades
ago: similarly, such modfiied single-action revolvers are now double action and are no longer Roster-exempt.


Your little H&R gun in question is a NOT a single-action revolver. It's just a little H&R low-cost 22LR DA revolver which looks
a bit like a cowboy gun and doesn't have a tilt-out cylinder (cost savings: no crane/yoke assembly).

As such, this gun is NOT Roster exempt.

In order to acquire and transfer to a nonexempt Californian, you would have to make it single-action thru action modification
somehow, before the gun begins DROSing. I have NO idea how that would occur with this gun's lockwork, which likely varies
a fair amount from that of a S&W wheelgun and its "DA sear" configuration.

I do not believe any DOJ staffer necessarily understands all these issues, and thus will likely not be able to give you an
adequate or correct answer.

You should rely on what I've written.

(I believe this gun model was my late Uncle's 'snake charmer' gun when he was fishing up in Eastern Oregon.)

ZirconJohn
08-03-2011, 3:35 PM
As has been stated here & and in my many previous posts about Roster exemption, the term "single-action revolver"
referred to in the 12133PC Roster exemption refers to the ACTION (operational cycle) ONLY - not the 'style' or 'design'.

'Single action revolver' status means ONLY a separate cocking and separate firing action are required [and that a single
trigger pull cannot perform both.]

Other aspects are irrelevant - except for further 12133PC dimensional compliance aspects (and holding 5 or more rounds).

So:


Single-action revolver status does NOT mean "it looks like a cowboy gun'. The Smith & Wesson 14-3
factory single-action revolver looks like a standard S&W DA wheelgun, but takes a separate cocking
motion and separate trigger pull motion to fire.
.
Single-action revolver status has NO relevance to whether or not a loading gate + non tilt-out cylinder
vs. a tilt-out cylinder on a yoke/crane setup is used. The method of loading/unloading is an entirely
separate aspect from single-action status.
.
Single-action revolver status does NOT depend or vary upon which action rotates the cylinder. In Colt
and Ruger etc. single-action 'cowboy'-look revolvers, the hammer cock rotates the cylinder. In the S&W
14-3 factory single-action revolver, the full trigger pull rotates the cylinder (but does not raise hammer).

I believe there is a gunsmith that did some kinda DA conversion on Ruger / Colt cowboy revolvers decades
ago: similarly, such modfiied single-action revolvers are now double action and are no longer Roster-exempt.


Your little H&R gun in question is a NOT a single-action revolver. It's just a little H&R low-cost 22LR DA revolver which looks
a bit like a cowboy gun and doesn't have a tilt-out cylinder (cost savings: no crane/yoke assembly).

As such, this gun is NOT Roster exempt.

In order to acquire and transfer to a nonexempt Californian, you would have to make it single-action thru action modification
somehow, before the gun begins DROSing. I have NO idea how that would occur with this gun's lockwork, which likely varies
a fair amount from that of a S&W wheelgun and its "DA sear" configuration.

I do not believe any DOJ staffer necessarily understands all these issues, and thus will likely not be able to give you an
adequate or correct answer.

You should rely on what I've written.

(I believe this gun model was my late Uncle's 'snake charmer' gun when he was fishing up in Eastern Oregon.)

Yes, thank you bwiese (Bill).

As per Rene at DOJ, and again I say she is a really great person etc, but based on her 'almost certain' answer... I would have been conducting an illegal transfer.

I knew something was wrong somewhere... but I needed the truth as it applies to CA Firearms Transfer Law.

Bob Barthold did call me and his answer was (as I already knew) as definitive as yours bwiese; in that the action of cocking the gun by pulling the hammer back, then pulling the trigger to fire it constitutes a 'single action' and NOT the frame make-up of the revolver as a 'single action style frame' oh but it's a single action and double action' as stated in the GunBroker.com description.

My client; as I said, a member here on CGN was given wrong information by some local Law Enforcement Officers that this particular model is CA Roster Exempt because of it's style of frame and that it 'can' operate as single action.

I stated to Bob Barthold of DOJ on the phone that the description on the GunBroker.com page for this gun is redundant because they state the following and I shall quote "This revolver is single action or double action and has adjustable sights." And all they had to say to define the action is state that it is a 'double action' - Meaning it operates in both single and double action... well duh, all double actions also operate in single action, and single operates in only what...? - Right... you got it... all single action only operates in single action. Thats why it's called single action :yes:

We cannot DROS this revolver in California... ours is NOT to try and understand the ridiculousness of it all. Ours is only to obey the Law as it is written... as laughable as it is at times certainly like these...!

Thank you again Mr. Bill Wiese... and thank you Mr. Bob Barthold of CA DOJ.

bwiese
08-03-2011, 4:01 PM
Zircon,

Do please note most double action guns are sometimes (and in fact correctly!) referred to as "DA/SA" - meaning they
can run in double action OR single action mode. In these guns, single action operation is a subset of the double-action
functionality (i.e, you can cock, then fire a S&W 686 as a single action even though it's a double-action revolver).

So the ad was really correct.

This "DA/SA" terminology is in fact used to differentiate and make distinct from "DAO" == 'Double Action Only' status.

DAO guns allow a single trigger pull to cock and then fire, but they do NOT allow user to cock it. [DAO guns are often
supplied to LEO agencies that want their cops to have an equal, long, heavy trigger pull on all shots fired.]

"DA", "SA", "DA/SA" and "DAO" concepts/terms apply to both revolvers and semiautos.

Note also that some? many? DAO guns may or may not really be true "DAO" internally, but simply cannot be readily cocked
by the user because there is no hammer spur (i.e., "bobbed" hammer) - or the hammer is somehow concealed in a shroud
that prevents cocking access.

ZirconJohn
08-03-2011, 4:57 PM
Zircon,

Do please note most double action guns are sometimes (and in fact correctly!) referred to as "DA/SA" - meaning they
can run in double action OR single action mode. In these guns, single action operation is a subset of the double-action
functionality (i.e, you can cock, then fire a S&W 686 as a single action even though it's a double-action revolver).

So the ad was really correct.

This "DA/SA" terminology is in fact used to differentiate and make distinct from "DAO" == 'Double Action Only' status.

DAO guns allow a single trigger pull to cock and then fire, but they do NOT allow user to cock it. [DAO guns are often
supplied to LEO agencies that want their cops to have an equal, long, heavy trigger pull on all shots fired.]

"DA", "SA", "DA/SA" and "DAO" concepts/terms apply to both revolvers and semiautos.

Note also that some? many? DAO guns may or may not really be true "DAO" internally, but simply cannot be readily cocked
by the user because there is no hammer spur (i.e., "bobbed" hammer) - or the hammer is somehow concealed in a shroud
that prevents cocking access.

Bill... yes, that is true and I stand corrected. I am not of the mindset that
thinks I'm an FFL Dealer who knows everything... I do not know
everything. Far... very far from that distinction :laugh:

DA/SA as opposed to DAO

My carry gun; the SW 340PD is DAO. However, is also hammerless.

I've known of DAO semi-auto... but have never seen a double action only
revolver that has a hammer. Isn't it true also that DAO is a semi-auto
configuration..., unlike my SW 340PD... hammerless, but DOA?

Oy vey... didn't know DOA SAO and/or DA/SA can be so confusing.

ke6guj
08-03-2011, 5:23 PM
I've never seen a revolver that didn't have a hammer. Some are internal, some are bobbed and shrouded, and others are "conventional".

Yes, a 340PD is considered a DAO revolver.
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764939_-1_757767_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Yht tp://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764939_-1_757767_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

bwiese
08-03-2011, 5:27 PM
IIRC, the Chiappa revolver is apparently something akin to striker-fired (fires out of the low bore) and doesn't run on a hammer.

But outside this rarity yes, even 'hammerless' DAO pocket revolvers have an internal hammer - it's just not exposed.

9mmepiphany
08-04-2011, 1:08 AM
I've known of DAO semi-auto... but have never seen a double action only
revolver that has a hammer. Isn't it true also that DAO is a semi-auto
configuration..., unlike my SW 340PD... hammerless, but DOA?
Actually quite common in the days when LE issued revolvers. They were made DAO to prevent officers from cocking the guns to SA, but they kept the hammer spurs as a place for the thumbbreak safety strap to hook onto.

PPC guns were often DAO...more accurate strings of fire...with the hammer spur removed to shorten locktime

Ruger has offered both the Speed-Six and SP-101 with spurless hammers to be used in DAO

Jalibass
08-14-2011, 1:07 AM
Your little H&R gun in question is a NOT a single-action revolver. It's just a little H&R low-cost 22LR DA revolver which looks
a bit like a cowboy gun and doesn't have a tilt-out cylinder (cost savings: no crane/yoke assembly).



Agree with all said sans the cost savings part. This revolver has duel linkage and can shoot in either action should one fail or otherwise become disabled. Low cost yes but these are the same men and machines who made the U.S.R.A.

bwiese
08-14-2011, 3:08 PM
Agree with all said sans the cost savings part. This revolver has duel linkage and can shoot in either action should one fail or otherwise become disabled. Low cost yes but these are the same men and machines who made the U.S.R.A.

You're right but you're wrong.

The cost savings I am writing about is avoidance of inclusion on this gun of a yoke/crane + axle assembly for a tilt-out cylinder generally used on many DA revolvers, along with efforts made to assure its alignment --- as opposed to a simple heavier frame not needing yoke+crane and taking much less machining with just a base-pin retaining the cylinder.

The relative cost difference in only the actual internal small-parts lockwork of SA vs DA actions is not gonna be that significant.