Approved Handgun Technicalities. What can you and can't you do?

[tenpercentfirearms]

Ok, two questions.

One, a guy wants to get just a Glock receiver, aka the lower. Can I DROS just the frame or because of the safe handgun list does it have to be a complete gun that is on the approved list? Please reference penal code if you can.

Second, Acusport does some different colored Glocks in desert camo and other colors. Since Glock has the standard and the OD on the list, does that mean you have to retest for a color change? Would an Acusport special that they send out for refinishing be illegal to DROS? I am assuming you can send it out to have finished, but I don't know if you can re-finish it and then DROS it. Again, if you know of the penal code let me know.

Thanks!

[fairfaxjim]

One - Don't know.
Two - Different color looks ok, see (a)(1):
12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.

The pubkised list requirement is:
12131. (a) On and after January 1, 2001, the Department of Justice shall compile, publish, and thereafter maintain a roster listing all of the pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person that have been tested by a certified testing laboratory, have been determined not to be unsafe handguns, and may be sold in this state pursuant to this title. The roster shall list, for each firearm, the manufacturer, model number, and model name.

[whomper]

(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.


Not trying to hijack here, but a couple of quick question. Does (2) mean that the metal alloy frames sold for Glocks can't be used in CA?
Does (3) mean that a gunsmith can not do a grip reduction on a Glock?

Sorry Wes.

[chiefcrash]

Not trying to hijack here, but a couple of quick question. Does (2) mean that the metal alloy frames sold for Glocks can't be used in CA?
Does (3) mean that a gunsmith can not do a grip reduction on a Glock?

Sorry Wes.

not sure about the metal alloy frames...

the list only applies to guns being SOLD, not guns you already own. you can do whatever modifications to your pistol as long as it doesn't create an AW, destructive device, etc. (in short, yes, you can have your gunsmith do a grip reduction on a glock)

[tgriffin]

Not trying to hijack here, but a couple of quick question. Does (2) mean that the metal alloy frames sold for Glocks can't be used in CA?
Does (3) mean that a gunsmith can not do a grip reduction on a Glock?

Sorry Wes.

If I am reading that right, the Glock metal frames would NOT be allowed for SALE (edit: in the form of a complete firearm) from an FFL, since the material that comprises the magazine well would be different.. PPT would be a different story as the safe handgun requirements dont apply.

long story short (and as posted above by chiefcrash): buy a stock, factory spec Glock. Then you can do whatever you want to it.

10% : I dont think the problem DROS'ing a Glock frame would be with the authorities (as the frame constitutes the firearm in the eyes of ATF, and the frame model would be kosher per safety list), but with Glock. IIRC, Glock will not sell just the frame. Might be wrong, but even if not, I would NOT want to pay the several hundred dollars that im sure Glock would charge, for the $1.75 in molded plastic.

[Guitarnut]

The fact that a dealer is asking this is amazing to me and proof that our laws are out of control.

10%, you could have just called DOJ but here it is.

You can’t DROS a handgun frame and call it an approved gun. On a Glock the frame doesn’t even have a model number so you would have to guess. When you DROS an approved gun you are submitting a form to DOJ stating that the gun you are transferring is the one they tested.

A green Glock or blue HK is not the black one so the manufacturer has to show DOJ that they are the same and if accepted, DOJ will list the additional colors for a fee. In short, if it don’t look like the one listed you don’t DROS it.

Again, I am very surprised that a fully licensed dealer has to ask these questions on a chat room. Next time just call DOJ. Most of them really do just want to help you.

Please know that some of the customer that come in to your store are in fact part of an anti-gun unit, or working for them, and they are there only to catch you make a mistake that will close your store. They are relentless, and there is no such thing as an honest mistake

[tenpercentfirearms]

The fact that a dealer is asking this is amazing to me and proof that our laws are out of control.

10%, you could have just called DOJ but here it is.

You can’t DROS a handgun frame and call it an approved gun. On a Glock the frame doesn’t even have a model number so you would have to guess. When you DROS an approved gun you are submitting a form to DOJ stating that the gun you are transferring is the one they tested.

A green Glock or blue HK is not the black one so the manufacturer has to show DOJ that they are the same and if accepted, DOJ will list the additional colors for a fee. In short, if it don’t look like the one listed you don’t DROS it.

Again, I am very surprised that a fully licensed dealer has to ask these questions on a chat room. Next time just call DOJ. Most of them really do just want to help you.

Please know that some of the customer that come in to your store are in fact part of an anti-gun unit, or working for them, and they are there only to catch you make a mistake that will close your store. They are relentless, and there is no such thing as an honest mistakeYeah, it is kind of like calling the DOJ and asking them if AR15s are legal. :rolleyes:

I have learned not to trust the DOJ on much. I like to get the PC for myself and take a good look at it. Once I was armed with enough knowledge here, then I could have called the DOJ and asked. To assume the DOJ will just tell you straight up an answer to a question is foolhardy. I have not had any problems with any individual DOJ staff and they are nice on the phone, but that doesn't mean they know the law or know what they are talking about. I am just as surprised you would take the DOJs word on anything. Amazing. :rolleyes:

[shark92651]

One - Don't know.
Two - Different color looks ok, see (a)(1):
12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.

The pubkised list requirement is:
12131. (a) On and after January 1, 2001, the Department of Justice shall compile, publish, and thereafter maintain a roster listing all of the pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person that have been tested by a certified testing laboratory, have been determined not to be unsafe handguns, and may be sold in this state pursuant to this title. The roster shall list, for each firearm, the manufacturer, model number, and model name.

I don't want to hijack this thread either but does this mean that my dealer could of DROSed that satin-nickel Sig P229 for me that was not on the list after all!?

[fairfaxjim]

A green Glock or blue HK is not the black one so the manufacturer has to show DOJ that they are the same and if accepted, DOJ will list the additional colors for a fee. In short, if it don’t look like the one listed you don’t DROS it.

Unless there is one of DOJ's famous "Regulations" that submarine PC12131.5, the law seems clear to me that "Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.", would also include color - as long as the manufacturer, model name and model number are listed. That can get confusing in that some manufacturers more accurately ID their guns by stock numbers than model numbers. That does not include material, steel is not the same as stainless steel, or the same as polymer. To confuse the issue even further, the approved roster does list makes and models that seem to fall under the finish exemption separately. I have emailed the DOJ to see if I can get some clarification.

12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.
(2) ...
(3) ...
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.

As for DROSing the satin-nickel Sig P229, I say yes, and would have argued it to my best ability.

[xenophobe]

Handgun receivers are PPT only in CA, with the exception of single shot pistols (which are exempt now) and single-action revolvers which shouldn't matter.

[hoffmang]

I'm looking at this and the sections that are generally defined as the receiver means a firearm by 12000 (c) are:


As used in Sections 12021, 12021.1, 12070, 12071, 12072,
12073, 12078, 12101, and 12801 of this code, and Sections 8100, 8101,
and 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, the term "firearm"
includes the frame or receiver of the weapon.

Xeno and others - can someone cite where the PC requires that you can't transfer a handgun frame. None of those sections are anything beyond the usual transfer restrictions.

This is the unsafe handgun section:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/pen/12125-12133.html

I see that you can't sell an unsafe handgun, but I don't see that you can't sell the frame of a handgun since its not a handgun. This goes directly to the DOJ concern that they may not have been able to list bare AR receivers.

Somebody prove me wrong, or this may be another avenue to import all sorts of goodies.

-Gene

[tenpercentfirearms]

Camo Glocks are out. Here is why.

You can't just bring in a gun that is a different color. It just doesn't have to be retested and pay an additional fee, but it does have to be approved and on the list.

How did I know for sure? This weekend an NRA dinner I was working for raffled off a camo Glock. I told them this might not be legal to DROS. I ended up with it so the guy could DROS it through me, but he changed his mind and wanted something closer to home. I called a dealer in Merced to have them fax me their FFL so I could send it to them. I let them know it might not be DROSable.

The lady on the phone said, "Well the state is right here."

I said, "You mean the DOJ?"

She says, "Yes."

I said, "Can I talk to them, who is it?"

"Dana."

"DANA! Let me talk to him."

Dana confirmed it and I looked it up in the Penal Code and sure enough.

12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(b) Any manufacturer seeking to have a firearm listed under this section shall provide to the Department of Justice all of the following:
(1) The model designation of the listed firearm.
(2) The model designation of each firearm that the manufacturer seeks to have listed under this section.
(3) A statement, under oath, that each unlisted firearm for which listing is sought differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the ways identified in subdivision (a) and is in all other respects identical to the listed firearm.
(c) The department may, in its discretion and at any time, require a manufacturer to provide to the department any model for which listing is sought under this section, to determine whether the model complies with the requirements of this section.

What are the odds of me calling this place in Merced and Dana being there?

All your base are belong to us.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Also, I have a reason why you can't DROS frames. When I go into the DROS system and go to new handgun DROS, the pull down box for "frames" does not pull down. It does not give me the option of DROSing a new frame. Frames are out too.

[hoffmang]

On the frames issue, I'm not so sure its that cut and dried. I quite agree that the software may be forcing the issue, but the reality of the Penal Code may not be the same as the paradigm that the DROS software is enforcing.

Probably time for an opinion letter to the DOJ.

-Gene

[tenpercentfirearms]

On the frames issue, I'm not so sure its that cut and dried. I quite agree that the software may be forcing the issue, but the reality of the Penal Code may not be the same as the paradigm that the DROS software is enforcing.

Probably time for an opinion letter to the DOJ.

-Gene
It is that cut and dry for me until it changes. :D

[bwiese]

Well you could duct tape a .22-bore pipe about 7" long onto it and supply a hammer. That would let it be 12133PC exempt, as a conforming single-shot pistol.

:)