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View Full Version : Do woodless danes need to go into bound book?


thisismyboomstick
01-11-2007, 10:13 AM
I just got to thinking about this since I have two on order.

Don't rifles have to be complete in their original military configuration to be C&R eligible? And since I'm not using my C&R to aquire it would it not need to go into the bound book or not even belong there? Also, kinda along the same lines, what would someone do if they ordered a M1 from CMP and received one that is less than 50 years old? I know at this point there are very few that would meet that criteria but it is possible. It doesn't seem to make sense to log rifles into the book that are not able to be aquired with just a C&R. In a sense you would be documenting your non-compliance with the regs.

eta34
01-11-2007, 10:16 AM
Excellent question, and one that I was contemplating posting. I have a Garand but didn't put it in my bound book either (CMP purchase). What is the correct procedure?

icormba
01-11-2007, 10:29 AM
Not 100% sure on the woodless Dane since they didn't come out of the arsenals like that in original military configuration. I might put it in there just to be sure.

I AM 100% SURE that you DO need to put a complete (CMP) received M1 Garand into your bound book.

thisismyboomstick
01-11-2007, 10:40 AM
Not 100% sure on the woodless Dane since they didn't come out of the arsenals like that in original military configuration. I might put it in there just to be sure.

I AM 100% SURE that you DO need to put a complete (CMP) received M1 Garand into your bound book.

What happens if you put a M1 manufactured in 1957 into your book? (I know, fat chance of getting one of those from CMP outside the auction but let's assume you did.) What would you say if you were audited and the guy says, "Hey, what's this doing in here, it's not 50 years old?" Seems like it would just be unecessarily asking for trouble to put it in there.

icormba
01-11-2007, 10:56 AM
What happens if you put a M1 manufactured in 1957 into your book? (I know, fat chance of getting one of those from CMP outside the auction but let's assume you did.) What would you say if you were audited and the guy says, "Hey, what's this doing in here, it's not 50 years old?" Seems like it would just be unecessarily asking for trouble to put it in there.

You only need to put the serial number/Make/Model/ date acquired/ & from who in your book... An auditor has no idea how old your M1 Garand is as there is no date on the actual rifle. Any and all Federal C & R must be logged in your book regardless if California considers it C & R.

eta34
01-11-2007, 11:14 AM
But I got the Garand before I received my C&R. Does it still need to go in the bound book?

icormba
01-11-2007, 11:16 AM
But I got the Garand before I received my C&R. Does it still need to go in the bound book?

No :)


it's a yes (logged as a "Disposition") only if you Disposition/sell it... which you SHOULDN'T!!! :)

eta34
01-11-2007, 11:51 AM
I would trade my entire gun collection, my dirt bike, my truck, and possibly my wife before I let that Garand go. Although I never served, my grandpa did served in Normandy. He got a Purple Heart for taking a pitchfork in the buttocks while hiding in a hay pile. Pretty neat story.

So, with that history, I plan to pass it on to my son, and his son, and his son..............

chiefcrash
01-11-2007, 11:57 AM
here's the breakdown of the whole "what goes into the bound book" question:

Once you recieve your C&R license, EVERY SINGLE C&R GUN you acquire from that point goes into the bound book. If it's on the ATF's C&R list, it goes in the book. Even if you bought it at the local gun shop and had to do a 10 day wait, it goes in the book. If a gun in your book leaves, you must record that as well.

There is no such thing as "using" your license in this regard. You ARE licensed, you do not USE your license. If your Garand is a "U.S. Rifle, caliber .30, M1, original issue only, produced prior to 1958", it goes in the book regardless of where you got it. If you buy a Yugo M59 from Big 5, it goes in the book.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm <- anything listed on that site goes in your bound book.

Now, any C&R gun you had BEFORE you got your license does not need to go in your bound book, even if you sell it once you get your license (only guns logged into the book get logged OUT of the book)

As for the woodless dane question, the ATF says a barreled action is NOT C&R. It doesn't go in the book. Legally, it would have to go through a 01 FFL.

ocabj
01-11-2007, 12:15 PM
I logged bare Garand receivers purchased from the CMP into my bound book. I would rather log unnecessary firearms instead of not logging what is necessary; meaning I would rather be told my book is wrong because I logged too much instead of being told my book is wrong because I didn't log enough.

icormba
01-11-2007, 12:22 PM
Now, any C&R gun you had BEFORE you got your license does not need to go in your bound book, even if you sell it once you get your license (only guns logged into the book get logged OUT of the book)



I was told by my friend's sister's brother's wife's father a different story... "any C & R transaction after you recieve your 03FFL must be logged".

Selling a C & R gun you had before you got your C & R is still logged because "selling" is a transaction. Right?

chiefcrash
01-11-2007, 12:46 PM
I was told by my friend's sister's brother's wife's father a different story... "any C & R transaction after you recieve your 03FFL must be logged".

Selling a C & R gun you had before you got your C & R is still logged because "selling" is a transaction. Right?

You only record dispositions of firearms that are in your bound book. Here's a letter from the ATF in response to some questions someone else had:

Department of the Treasury
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
Washington, DC 20226

Dear Mr. Rxxx,
This is in response to your letter dated October 18, 1996, requesting information concerning the acquisition and disposition of curio and relic firearms.
In response to your questions, we feel the following information will resolve your areas of concern and confusion:
(A) Current regulations do not require licensed collectors to record in their bound book firearms acquired prior to obtaining their license. Therefore, subsequent sales of the previously acquired firearms would require no entry in your bound book records.
(B) If, after obtaining a license, a firearm is acquired for your personal collection, it must be entered into your bound book whether or not you use your collectors' license to purchase the weapon. See 27CFR 178.125(f). Any subsequent sale would have to be entered in your bound book records.
(C) You may immediately dispose of a firearm to a lawful buyer. The length of time you retain it is immaterial. The determining factor is under what circumstances it was acquired. If the firearm was acquired to enhance your personal collection, and you decide you do not like or want it, the length of time and amount it is sold for do not matter. However, if you acquire guns for the purpose of resale, for profit, you would be engaged in a firearms dealing business and would need a dealers' license. As you are aware, the definition of a dealer is ''A person who devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principle objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.'' Therefore, the purpose of the transactions would be the determining factor in whether you were dealing in firearms or merely enhancing your personal collection. The mere fact that you make a profit on the sale of a firearm from your collection would not mean you were dealing in firearms. Repeated transactions which are motivated by the desire to generate profit or income rather than enhancing your collection would indicate you were dealing in furearms, not collecting. If a collector acquires curios or relics for the purpose of sale rather than to enhance a collection, the collector should be a licensed dealer in firearms.The sole intent and purpose f the collectors' license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain a curio or relic from outside his State of residence.
(D) Disposing of personal firearms for the purpose of upgrading a collection is not engaging in a firearms business.

We trust this has been responsive to your request. If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Sincerely yours,
Charles Bartlett
Acting Chief
Firearms and Explosives Operations Branch


Granted, this letter is almost just over 10 years old, but i don't think that part of the rules changed since then...

icormba
01-11-2007, 1:02 PM
Yes, that's a much better source than my friend's sister's brother's wife's father. thanks! :)