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View Full Version : Differences between Winchester 9mm "Black talons" and "PDX1"


its mcgavin son
08-01-2011, 12:26 PM
I saw a Calgunner selling a box of 20 rounds of 147gr Black Talons HP for $60. I looked up the rounds on Youtube and they look identical to Winchester's PDX1 JHP. However, the 9mm PDX1 go for approx $19 (20 rounds), so what's the difference in relation to the inflated price?

sk8804
08-01-2011, 12:41 PM
black talons are no longer in production, so they are more novelty than anything. Ranger Talons are current production and they put pdx1's to shame. The price is collector related only.

Turo
08-01-2011, 12:53 PM
I haven't been impressed by the PDX-1 series after having them jam up my 1911 so bad I had to bust out a screwdriver to clear the malfunction. Granted it was probably the gun's fault, but it's never done that with any other ammo before.

The Ranger T series is Winchester's newest rendition of the black talon, and is now my favorite HD/SD round to use. They aren't always in stock in many places, but you can find them around.

dcbiii
08-01-2011, 12:57 PM
Black Talon - Ranger T - Bonded PDX1


I have seen a lot of postings saying the Ranger T and Black Talon are the same
bullets. I have also noticed a lot of mixed opinions on the PDX1's. So I
decided to post this for everyone's information. None of the 3 are exactly the
same but they are all very similar. I will not try to speculate which one is
the best but I have my 9mm loaded with the 124gr PDX1 +P. Here is some
information on the 3 different bullets.

Black Talon
The Black Talon handgun bullet is a jacketed hollow-point bullet with
perforations designed to expose sharp edges upon expansion. The bullet included
a Lubalox coating, a proprietary oxide process, (though widely misreported to
be Teflon, molybdenum disulfide, or wax) giving it an unusual black appearance
compared to other copper-jacketed or lead bullets. The Lubalox coating was to
protect the barrel rifling, and did not give the bullet armor-piercing
capabilities. This coating in fact is still widely used on many of Winchester's
rifle bullets today. The bullet also had a unique appearance with a star shaped
perforation on the black tip, giving it the nickname Starpoint.

Ranger SXT/Ranger T
Winchester discontinued the Black Talon line completely in 2000. The “Ranger
SXT” ammunition sold later by Winchester is very similar to the Black Talon
though without the black Lubalox coating on the bullet. Among shooters, a
running joke is that SXT stands for “Same eXact Thing", though the official
branding is “Supreme eXpansion Technology”. However, there are differences in
the anatomy of the bullets which become apparent when carefully examined side
by side. The hollow point cavity dimensions and angles of the meplat were
altered to enhance reliability of expansion, though the basic "reverse taper"
design unique to the Black Talon was retained. This "reverse taper" refers to
the bullet's jacket being thicker at the tip than the toward the base,
enhancing rigidity which allows the sharp petals to remain largely
perpendicular to the wound path, unlike traditional designs where the expanding
jacket petals would peel back almost completely behind the expanded lead
mushroom. This difference is obvious after firing into ballistic gelatin. In
2007 Winchester updated their Ranger SXT line and renamed it Ranger T-Series.
Besides further dimensional changes to the hollow point for reliable expansion,
the trademark perpendicular petals were made longer yet more rounded at the
tips to retain stiffness.

PDX1
In 2009 Winchester-Olin released a new hollow point bullet in its Supreme Elite
line of handgun ammunition called the Bonded PDX1. It is similar to the Ranger
SXT series and, therefore, the older Black Talon line in its structure, and is
available in several calibers and loadings. The most obvious difference from
the SXT is that the bonded design, meant to maintain structural integrity
through difficult intermediate barriers like auto-glass, largely prevents the
sharp petals from peeling away from the lead core and fully protruding into the
wound track. The .40 S&W PDX1 cartridge is the primary service ammunition of
the FBI. The PDX1 series is also available for purchase by civilian shooters.
Further, there is no law that prohibits civilians from buying ammunition marked
"Law Enforcement", which some of the Ranger line has printed on the box (as do
other lines of ammo).

Source:http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?89075-Black-Talon-Ranger-T-Bonded-PDX1

luchador768
08-01-2011, 1:10 PM
Black Tallons cause cancer and kill kittens and puppies, the new stuff doesn't.

I remember reading a great piece of writing in Newsweek about the Black Tallons. The author stated that the bullets give doctors AIDS. The authors thinking was that Dr.'s blindly stick thier hands into gun shot wounds. 14 years in trauma and I've never seen this happen.

Nick Justice
08-01-2011, 2:05 PM
Black Talons could stop in mid-flight, rotate, and start moving again several times in a human body, thus making a wound path with several acute angles in it, and also eight to ten feet long. I saw it on MTV.

The newer ones can't do all of that.

gun toting monkeyboy
08-01-2011, 2:14 PM
I still have a mag full of Black Talons for my first glock. It really, really liked them, so I held on to those last few in case of rabid zombie raccoons and such. They weren't all that much better than other bullets from the 1990s. The just got bad press, and the news turned them into a freakin' kitten burning, armor-piercing, cop killing bullet used to hunt nuns while they were out raising money for orphans. It was seriously ugly. So they dropped them, when to the less sound-byte friendly SXT without the scary black coating, and moved on. The price online is all for the novelty factor.

-Mb

PRCABR4Christ
08-01-2011, 2:14 PM
Amen to the SXT = Same eXact Thing, the only difference between the SXT and the PDX1's are that the PDX1's are frangible

sk8804
08-01-2011, 2:18 PM
Amen to the SXT = Same eXact Thing, the only difference between the SXT and the PDX1's are that the PDX1's are frangible

the pdx is not frangible, it is bonded. The big difference is that the pdx does not have the hooked petals like the talons.

tonelar
08-01-2011, 2:21 PM
Black Talons are old tech defensive ammo. Newer, bonded designs exceed their performance especially when considering obstacles and heavy clothing. Collectors might value the originals more, but that's about it, really.

jrara
08-01-2011, 2:29 PM
All I remember is that there was some kind of public backlash that nicknamed the Black Talons as "cop killer" bullets.

JeffM
08-01-2011, 2:54 PM
The PDX-1 9mm I've had looks exactly like the Winchester Sliver Tip ammo without the nickle washed bullet. They both clog up with heavy clothing and act like FMJs. Decades old technology.

Ranger T-Series is the only way to go (if you prefer the Winchester brand).

Press Check
08-01-2011, 9:42 PM
I remember being a kid and seeing news stories on black talon bullets and how evil they were. You would think the bullets were made from Satan's toenails or something.

According to legend, every time a box of Black Talons were opened, a cute fuzzy kitten died.

JanG
08-01-2011, 9:49 PM
i knew black talons were special, i just never knew it was legendary :rofl:

PRCABR4Christ
08-01-2011, 9:54 PM
the pdx is not frangible, it is bonded. The big difference is that the pdx does not have the hooked petals like the talons.

My mistake, oh well, I'm sure it'll happen again :rofl:

Oceanbob
08-01-2011, 10:09 PM
I have a few boxes. :D

None for sale.

Bought them for $14.95 a box back in 1993..(?) (100 boxes)

Still, as a collector I like them. I keep several magazines full of them on my
various GLOCKS.

http://i49.tinypic.com/dqgj7t.jpg

JagerDog
08-01-2011, 10:11 PM
I've got a box of 45 ACP Talons from back in the day. I keep them more for novelty. Have some SXT's which replaced the talons.

My Sig 220 an especially my 1911 Gold Cup really like Hydrashocks.

My new Sig 239 isn't too fond of the PDX1 in the accuracy department. Gotta try some others.

shooting4life
08-01-2011, 10:27 PM
$41

Moto4Fun
08-02-2011, 12:03 PM
I got a box of Black Talons in.45acp for my birthday. I currently have them loaded in my p220 mags, but due to the inability of practice with them, I will likely convert to some other type of ammo for SD, and keep these as show and tell pieces.

ZombieTactics
08-02-2011, 12:40 PM
I can't get PDX1 rounds to feed reliably in any of my various 9mm or .40S&W handguns. Since they all seems to eat everything else I feed them, I tend to think the problem is the round itself.

Fate
08-02-2011, 2:34 PM
I can't get PDX1 rounds to feed reliably in any of my various 9mm or .40S&W handguns. Since they all seems to eat everything else I feed them, I tend to think the problem is the round itself.

My .40 and .45 M&Ps have never once hiccuped with PDX-1 rounds. Maybe it is just you! :p

its mcgavin son
08-02-2011, 5:13 PM
I can't get PDX1 rounds to feed reliably in any of my various 9mm or .40S&W handguns. Since they all seems to eat everything else I feed them, I tend to think the problem is the round itself.

Which 9mm handguns have consistent failure? I've shot 35 PDX1 rounds in (2) different capacity mags from my Glock 19 and it was heaven.

Thanks for all your responses guys. Everything is cleared up.

ZombieTactics
08-02-2011, 8:12 PM
Which 9mm handguns have consistent failure? I've shot 35 PDX1 rounds in (2) different capacity mags from my Glock 19 and it was heaven. ...

Glock22 (with 9mm conversion and Glock17 mags)
Glock19
Ruger SR9
Ruger SR9c (two of them)
Springfield XD9

Hundreds of (expensive!) rounds fired, about 5% failures. I haven't had any trouble with any other ammo.

The Wingnut
08-03-2011, 12:54 AM
Cor-Bon DPX and Speer Gold Dot are much, much nastier than BTs. And ditto SXT / PDX, they never really stopped making it, they just changed the name.

JTROKS
08-03-2011, 9:56 AM
Black Talons are the only bullets capable of doing curves like in the movie, Wanted.

paintballdad
08-03-2011, 10:26 AM
WTH, do people actually pay that much for Black Talons? That would be about $3 per round. Hell, i'd sell my last box and just buy some Gold Dots or Ranger Ts.

crazy
08-03-2011, 10:39 AM
Black talons are heat seeking. Black Talons are not cop-killers, they are attorney-killers.

PDX1 are made in Portland.

Mr.1904
08-03-2011, 11:23 AM
Cor-Bon DPX and Speer Gold Dot are much, much nastier than BTs. And ditto SXT / PDX, they never really stopped making it, they just changed the name.


Just ordered 4 boxes for my G21.

And this thread is great by the way. Nun hunters? haha

Ron-Solo
08-04-2011, 2:02 AM
Black Talons are at least 11 years old. While they still go bang, they wouldn't be in my first line of defense.

FYI, the Ranger SXT is basically the same round. The SXT stands for Super Expansion Talon according to a Winchester rep I met at one of our Department ranges.

its mcgavin son
08-04-2011, 1:28 PM
This topic has turned into a good thread; lots of great hollow point recommendations in this thread for different people to experiment with..

I particularly employ Federal HST 9mm 147gr (for soft target HD) and Winchester PDX1 9mm 147gr bonded JHP (conceal carry SD). I love heavy loads

negolien
08-27-2011, 7:38 AM
Black Tallons cause cancer and kill kittens and puppies, the new stuff doesn't.

I remember reading a great piece of writing in Newsweek about the Black Tallons. The author stated that the bullets give doctors AIDS. The authors thinking was that Dr.'s blindly stick thier hands into gun shot wounds. 14 years in trauma and I've never seen this happen.

No offense but you must not have seen much trauma on your rotation bud. One of the first things a Doctor does in any penetrating wound is stick their finger in it. Gold Dots run just fine thru my rig during live fire so I will stick with those for now.

Fishslayer
08-27-2011, 10:01 AM
Black Talons could stop in mid-flight, rotate, and start moving again several times in a human body, thus making a wound path with several acute angles in it, and also eight to ten feet long. I saw it on MTV.


So the Warren Commission was right! :eek: