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ap3572001
07-31-2011, 11:54 AM
I have been an LE firearms instructor for a while now.
Have many questions from new CCW holders. One question I am always asked is about a typical distance in self defense or an OFFduty encounter.

Another question is about the value of POINT shooting (w/o use of sights)

Would like some feedback . THANK YOU .

llamatrnr
07-31-2011, 12:53 PM
Not LEO, but I think the concensus is 3 yds, 3 seconds, 3 rounds = typical gunfight.

Definitely a "point-shoot" scenario

baz152
07-31-2011, 1:10 PM
3 YARDS! Wow you are going to let someone get pretty close to you. 3 SECONDS! To draw a firearm form concealment and put accurate rounds on target in 3 seconds is a lot faster than most people will do, that is faster than most Police Officers can do and they do not have to draw from concealment. 3 ROUNDS! I hope not, you have to evaluate after each round fired; a CCW holder is a lot more accountable than a LEO is and the rule for LEO's is they have to account for each and every shot fired.

Most every HG shooting Police or CCW holder is done with point shooting. People may think that they are picking up the sights but when the fear hits you, point shooting is the result. Look at the stats on shootings with rounds fired vs. rounds hit. Most shootings take place within 15 yards, with picking up the sights anybody with five minutes of firearms training will make hits at that range without someone shooting back. Point shooting works and is used a lot in shootings but every round that misses is a round that just killed an innocent person.


AP, what agency do you work for?

Not LEO, but I think the concensus is 3 yds, 3 seconds, 3 rounds = typical gunfight.

Definitely a "point-shoot" scenario

r3dn3ck
07-31-2011, 1:12 PM
< 21 feet. Normally less than 10. Personally I call 20 feet-ish my stop right there line. Point shooting is for touching-close range engagement. If you've got room to draw and use the front sight, do so. Kill that target hard. Don't panic shoot, take your shot when it'll do the job. hosing rounds down range willy-nilly under stress will not put the metal in the meat.

SVT-40
07-31-2011, 3:24 PM
I had one off duty OIS. It started at around 100 feet and ended at 187 feet when my fifth round stopped the suspect. He was armed with a rifle. Me a S&W M-37 38.

"Typical" would not be a description I would use because every incident is so very different. "Average" would be a better term.

llamatrnr
07-31-2011, 3:39 PM
I had one off duty OIS. It started at around 100 feet and ended at 187 feet when my fifth round stopped the suspect. He was armed with a rifle. Me a S&W M-37 38.

"Typical" would not be a description I would use because every incident is so very different. "Average" would be a better term.

You are very correct, thanks for fixing.

Jonathan Doe
07-31-2011, 5:45 PM
I handled a gang shooting a while back. The bad guy killed 2 juveniles with both head shots with a medium caliber pistol. I measured the distance to be about 250 feet. It must be lucky shots. Usually, it was less than 10 yards.

bigred1
07-31-2011, 7:22 PM
Most of my personal CCW training is 7-10 yards using point shooting or what I prefer to call "instinctive shooting". 2 rnds and reevaluate. But I would say that my weapons training is a little more extensive than a standard CCW holder. I've trained hip fire for sub 10ft encounters but honestly at less than 7 yrds concealed draw is not a good option. At that point it's time to prepare for either a hand to hand situation or withdraw from scenario.

9mmepiphany
07-31-2011, 7:33 PM
I used to keep tabs of OIS, both on and off-duty in our region.

In 28 years:
1. the furthest engagement
a) on duty was across a parking lot 25-30 yards as officers pulled up on a call
b) off duty was 20 yards as a guy pulling up in front of a house as a burglar was leaving.

2. the closest (other than ones that start at contact distance)
a) on duty was from curb to front step - 7-10 yards
b) off duty was from entry to counter of 7-11 - 3 yards

Point shooting is a useful tool, spending time practicing point shooting is a losing preposition if putting shots on your target is your goal. You learn point shooting by practicing sighted shooting. The exception is shooting from Retention (from the hip), which is a very advanced technique.

Not LEO, but I think the concensus is 3 yds, 3 seconds, 3 rounds
I've heard this before and never understood it. Is this just a new lowered standard that folks train to?

It isn't hard to place to aimed 2 shots into a 6" circle at 7 yards from the holster, at a random signal, in under 2 seconds. Top tier shooters can draw shoot 2, reload and shoot 4 more in under 4 seconds

BigDogatPlay
07-31-2011, 8:25 PM
The average distance we always heard or taught back when was "seven yards or less". I've not had the opportunity to read an OIS report in a few years but I have to believe the average is probably still within in that span. I've casually followed local to me OIS and over the past few years they've spanned from 20 yards or so for the longest down to muzzle contact for the closest. The average still seems to fall into the seven yard or less frame.

For years the average number of rounds fired was 3. I doubt that is still true.