Is body armor regulated in CA?

[juha_teuvonnen]

Speaking of SHTF scenarios so popular on calguns. Folks buy a bunch of rifles and their plans seem to be based on the assumption that they are some kind of invincible creatures. Nobody seems to think about protection. Is body armor regulated in any way in this state?

[pewpewguns]

"It will be determined by the arresting officer"
-California Dept. of Justice.

Just kidding, no it isn't.

Edit: Wow , Guess it is if you use it while commiting a violent crime.

[Anthonysmanifesto]

the penal code uses the term "body vest" synonymously with body armor

PC 12022.2(b) says " Any person who wears a body vest in the commission or
attempted commission of a violent offense, as defined in subdivision
(b) of Section 12021.1, shall, upon conviction of that felony or
attempted felony, in addition and consecutive to the punishment
prescribed for the felony or attempted felony of which he or she has
been convicted, be punished by an additional term of one, two, or
five years. The court shall order the middle term unless there are
circumstances in aggravation or mitigation. The court shall state
the reasons for its enhancement choice on the record at the time of
the sentence.
(c) As used in this section, "body vest" means any
bullet-resistant material intended to provide ballistic and trauma
protection for the wearer."

[OldWestGambler]

Socialist Diane Fienstein wants to make it illegal for good citizens to have it. She feels we don't need it or guns for that matter, even though she has a CCW permit. I guess her gun views fall perfectly in line with Hitlers. She wants a completely unarmed population and you'll be able to fight off the armed attackers with a bb gun. Ohhh wait, they want to make those illegal, too. Remember when California was part of America?

[SemiAutoSam]

Yes but I was a Infant Oh you mean really a part of America ?

Early 1800's Nope I wasn't hatched yet.

How do we get rid of those nutcase politicians. Invoke the original 13th Amdt ?

Remember when California was part of America?

[aileron]

Remember when California was part of America?

No...

[kap]

I smell a group buy of Dragon Skin brewing.

[Aluisious]

I smell a group buy of Dragon Skin brewing.
I wish I had that kind of money to blow.

[rorschach]

Early 1800's Nope I wasn't hatched yet.

Back then, wasnt California part of Mexico?

[kap]

I wish I had that kind of money to blow.
How much is it? I have seen BA for about $800.

[SemiAutoSam]

Site below states prior to 1946 it was occupied by Mexico.
Interesting read I'm sure I learned all of whats at that website in school I just don't remember it.

Also I had parents that took the family to every mission.
My mother went so far to make "RUBBINGS" of every thing with raised letters on it. that had anything to do with history.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_California_to_1899


Back then, wasn't California part of Mexico?

[cseabass]

What i wouldnt give for a Crye armor chasis....

[pnkssbtz]

Body armor isn't as expensive as Counterstrike makes it out to be =P

[Aluisious]

How much is it? I have seen BA for about $800.
I thought DragonSkin goes for 4-5k.

[echoplex]

Site below states prior to 1946 it was occupied by Mexico.
You mean 1846? And by prior to 1846 you mean 25 years prior to 1846?

And for La Raza types that insist on "taking back what's theirs"... a brief history lesson:

Prehistory-1500s: Native American Indian tribes (not mexican nor spanish speaking)
1500s-1700s: Spain and England settlements
1700s-1800s: Spain and Russia settlements
1821-1846: 25 years of independent "Mexican" ranching, spanish speaking population less than 10,000.
1846-1850: United States military, international settlers
1850-present: International

Point is that 25 years, while I'm sure it was nice and inspired many frescoes, does not equal a heritage and a right to be racist and rude to me every day.

[James R.]

I don't think most BA that mere mortals can afford is going to hold up to rifle fire in the urban engagement distances anyhow. Unless you think you're only going to face thugs with shotguns and handguns you're probably still gonna get the Swiss Cheese treatment, body armor or no.

Regards,

James R.

[CA SHOOTER]

I thought DragonSkin goes for 4-5k.

Yeah I believe it about $5,000 for one of those . Those are the sheit .

[pnkssbtz]

What about that surplus russian stuff with the titanium plates?

I still want to see footage of it taking rounds or some reports on it..

[SemiAutoSam]

Yes that is what I meant. Oops I just lost 100 years of history for California state.



You mean 1846? And by prior to 1846 you mean 25 years prior to 1846?

And for La Raza types that insist on "taking back what's theirs"... a brief history lesson:

Prehistory-1500s: Native American Indian tribes (not mexican nor spanish speaking)
1500s-1700s: Spain and England settlements
1700s-1800s: Spain and Russia settlements
1821-1846: 25 years of independent "Mexican" ranching, spanish speaking population less than 10,000.
1846-1850: United States military, international settlers
1850-present: International

Point is that 25 years, while I'm sure it was nice and inspired many frescoes, does not equal a heritage and a right to be racist and rude to me every day.

[tgriffin]

Level IIIA, as a rule of thumb, wont withstand rifle rounds. Ceramic trauma plates have been designed for that purpose, but but dont hold up well after a couple rounds.

[5968]

Not unless you are a felon.

[MrEd]

maybe the trauma plate is gonna loose effectiveness after a "couple" of rounds but as a rule of thumb , if you get hit by a couple of rounds and you are still standing there to get hit by more rounds then you are doing something wrong . Body Armor is not designed to make you invincible but it is to give you a survival chance in the event that you are hit .
If I get hit multiple times and have not taken care of the threat by then , I have to review my tactics and use a tactical backward sprint OR I can do what good mall Ninja do , take two Sapi plates and TAPE them to my body and wait TWO WEEKS for the DOJ regulation to take effect .

:p

[Aluisious]

Plates can get damaged by rough handling. The DragonSkin armor is flexible and doesn't have that problem.

But yeah now that you mention it, the ability to take 20 rifle rounds is pretty pointless.

"Yeah? That all you got? Hah, betcha don't even have another magazine!"

[juha_teuvonnen]

What about that surplus russian stuff with the titanium plates?

I still want to see footage of it taking rounds or some reports on it..

Russian stuff is heavy as all hell, heavier than american stuff. Titanium plates were used in early models that were fielded during Afghan war, later models also used steel and ceramic plates. Titanium was gradually phased out as special steels and compisites were created.

Russian standard issue body armor:

Zh-81, weight: 4.8kg plates 1.24 mm thick, protection from shrapnel not bullets.
Zh-85, weight: 7-8kg plates 6.5 mm thick (titanium or ceramic), front protects from rifle bullets, rear - shrapnel only.
Zh-86, there are 19 different varieties (e.g. different plates), different protection and weight.

Commercial russian bulletproff vests are $800 to $1400. They are a regulated item in Russia, at least exdport is regulated. Used army vests go for $500-$1000 depending on plates and condition. Commercial vests have better ergonomics and and are available in a variety of protection levels.

Russians have invented and defined their own unique system of protection levels. Levels range from 1 to 6A with 6A being strongest. The 6A is supposed to withstand armor-piercing 7.62x54R round (7N13) fired from SVD at range of 5 meters. Given the fact that 7n13 will go trough 16мм (0.63 inches) steel plate at 100 meters, stopping it from 5 meters is impressive. The "price to pay" is carrying around 10 kg (22 lbs).

Given today's AP cores made from hardened tool steel, bulletproof vests that can stop them are very heavy. Vest that stop plain lead bullets weight 4-5 kg (approx 10 lbs).

BTW Russian vests have to be certified, otherwise they won't be available for sale. Certication consists of a bunch of firing tests. They don't muck with this stuff in Russia, the consequences are severe.

[aileron]

So what can dragon skin stop, and where can you get it? I thought it was still in the testing phase.

[Aluisious]

The 2000 series stuff was just certified as Level III protection, and they are going for Level IV with the 3000 series. I have no idea where to buy it tho.

[brando]

When it comes to rifle impacts, lots of ceramic Level III plates won't be able to take a second hit. Plates usually have to be rated for multiple-hits and in the last couple years that has started to become more of the norm. Though keep in mind, they're usually talking about rounds impacting within a certain distance. I've seen SAPI plates take multiple rounds, but not very close to each other. In fact, most plates are "in-conjunction" and designed to work with IIIa armor between them and your body. This is something lost on a lot of soldiers in my unit who were wearing plate carriers in Iraq. Stand Alone plates exist, but are pretty heavy, especially the Level IV types. Still, if you've ever seen what a rifle round does to the back of your average plate, you'd think twice about even using a stand alone plate without a layer of IIIa behind it. There's often still a threat of backface deformation and particularly secondary debris (which is highly accelerated).

Plates and body armor in general is very misunderstood even by the average American soldier, let alone citizen.

[Dont Tread on Me]

I put 10 rounds of 9mm into a 10+ year old vest last month at a handgun match and it stopped them. Quite impressive.

[damon1272]

Back then, wasnt California part of Mexico?
And we are reverting back sooner or later.

[Jarhead4]

If you are interested in Dragon Skin here is their web site:

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

Looks real nice.

[kap]

I am lucky they don't have a "buy" button. Not that I could afford it.

[Jarhead4]

I am lucky they don't have a "buy" button. Not that I could afford it.
Me too!!!

[CA SHOOTER]

I believe the Dragon Skin 2000 (level 3A) series can stop a round of SS109 mill ammo .
Damn expensive though .

[brando]

The jury's still out on Dragon Skin. The concept is good, but it apparently has some problems still with military ballistics experts. However, I think for LEO and civie use it is probably GTG (not Iraq though).

[CA SHOOTER]

The jury's still out on Dragon Skin. The concept is good, but it apparently has some problems still with military ballistics experts. However, I think for LEO and civie use it is probably GTG (not Iraq though).

I thought it was just approved for the military a month or so back ?
They make them about 15 min from my house , was even thinking about putting in an app there .

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

The jury's still out on Dragon Skin. The concept is good, but it apparently has some problems still with military ballistics experts. However, I think for LEO and civie use it is probably GTG (not Iraq though).

Their 'experts' have somehow found a way for the armor to fail, even after multiple tests in front of Law Enforcement Agencies have proven otherwise.

[matarlegoate]

Military procurments have historically centered around politics. The military is not known for buying the best items, they frequently buy from the lowest bidder.

[Aluisious]

The jury's still out on Dragon Skin. The concept is good, but it apparently has some problems still with military ballistics experts. However, I think for LEO and civie use it is probably GTG (not Iraq though).
It fails the crucial "cushy jobs for procurement officials in retirement" test.

[Aluisious]

I believe the Dragon Skin 2000 (level 3A) series can stop a round of SS109 mill ammo .
Damn expensive though .
Its level 3, not 3a.

[M. Sage]

Body armor isn't as expensive as Counterstrike makes it out to be =P

Especially if Dynamic Pricing is on! (This is your obscure gamer joke of the day.)

My SHTF plan is avoidance, and if I need to go somewhere, do it quickly, which means go light. Oh, and only get into a gunfight if it's totally unavoidable. Body armor would be a good idea, but it's not top priority.

[odysseus]

The gun is so you can get the supplies from the stockers.

Which is also a good way of getting shot.:rolleyes:

[calAWBsux]

Level IIIA, as a rule of thumb, wont withstand rifle rounds. Ceramic trauma plates have been designed for that purpose, but but dont hold up well after a couple rounds.

Hmm, don't know about that. There's NEW stuff that can take multiple hits (15-30 HITS); however, these plates will NOT stop TRUE AP rounds, which is FREAKING hard to get outside of the military, anyway. If you have threats that have TRUE AP, then I don't know what you're doing in your spare time! Most of these multi-hit capable plates use MARS steel plates. Check it out:

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001213

$500 a plate. Not too bad, IMHO

AND:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8632&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

BUT, this appears to only be effective for 5.56mm ammo (up to "green tip" ammo). Apparently, 7.62mm ammo will break this plate. But it's cheaper than the above plate.

[tman]

If you are interested in Dragon Skin here is their web site:

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

Looks real nice.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/video/308.wmv

11 Shots with .308 caliber from 15 feet away without penetration. That's amazing.

Although, I wonder what kind of damage can be done from just the impact.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Especially if Dynamic Pricing is on! (This is your obscure gamer joke of the day.)


What is the price now? I haven't played since they introduced that.

[juha_teuvonnen]

Russians had a couple of designs somewhat similar to the dragon skin. These designs were considered unsuccessfull and were abandoned years ago. The reasons cited by folks from NII Stali (State R&D facility for body armor and related issues) were "too much extra weight cause dby by overlaps of a bunch of small plates". Their contention was, that 1 plate with no overlaps will be lighter, given the same level of protection.

In SHTF scenario most likely the majority of ammo is "civilian" i.e. lead-core. You can get a reasonably comfortable vest that will stop lead-core ammo in most rifle calibers (.223, 7.62x39, .308 and 7.62x54R). Chinese surplus 7.62x39 is steel-core, but it's mild steel and the penetration is about the same as lead core.

If your opponent uses 1st generation AP rounds (hardened steel core) you will need a heavier vest that will hurt your mobility somewhat.

If your opponent uses 2nd generation AP rounds (hardened tool steel cores, tungsten carbide and special alloy cores) you will need a 22 lbs vest to stop it. No mobility for most people. Gotta keep yourself in good shape, if you want to run around with 40 lbs of gear on.

I think that most AP rounds are quite uncommon (except surplus SS109 in .223) so a really heavy vest is not practical.

[paradox]

The reasons cited by folks from NII Stali (State R&D facility for body armor and related issues) were "too much extra weight cause dby by overlaps of a bunch of small plates". Their contention was, that 1 plate with no overlaps will be lighter, given the same level of protection.

The downside to that is decreased mobility. It's the same old engineering balance as scale mail versus plate mail.

[SemiAutoSam]

In my understanding and from the tests that Ive seen ( a thread here linked to a video a few months back) .223 or .308 FMJ will ventilate just about any standard issue body armor. The only body armor that those round will not penetrate is the armor with ceramic trauma plates. I would bet dollars to doughnut's that the .308 that I shoot would slice through just about any standard issue cop or military style body armor.

And I would think the 308 AP or 308 SLAP will go through even more.
I remember many years ago a place in El Monte had a special on bags of israeli 308 AP did anyone else get in on this deal ?

Any other opinions ?


Russians had a couple of designs somewhat similar to the dragon skin. These designs were considered unsuccessful and were abandoned years ago. The reasons cited by folks from NII Stali (State R&D facility for body armor and related issues) were "too much extra weight cause dby by overlaps of a bunch of small plates". Their contention was, that 1 plate with no overlaps will be lighter, given the same level of protection.

In SHTF scenario most likely the majority of ammo is "civilian" i.e. lead-core. You can get a reasonably comfortable vest that will stop lead-core ammo in most rifle calibers (.223, 7.62x39, .308 and 7.62x54R). Chinese surplus 7.62x39 is steel-core, but it's mild steel and the penetration is about the same as lead core.

If your opponent uses 1st generation AP rounds (hardened steel core) you will need a heavier vest that will hurt your mobility somewhat.

If your opponent uses 2nd generation AP rounds (hardened tool steel cores, tungsten carbide and special alloy cores) you will need a 22 lbs vest to stop it. No mobility for most people. Gotta keep yourself in good shape, if you want to run around with 40 lbs of gear on.

I think that most AP rounds are quite uncommon (except surplus SS109 in .223) so a really heavy vest is not practical.

[brando]

According to NIJ specs, yes, Level II and IIIa soft panels (Kevlar, Goldflex, Specra, et al) does not protect against rifle rounds. Level III plates handle most rifle rounds, while Level IV protects against AP rounds. Now that's just NIJ standards, the most common standards tested on body armor here in America (particularly for LEO). The military has its own standards. On top of that, you have to be careful because manufacturers sometimes make plates that have different standards. Sure, you'll see them put out Level III and IV plates in both in-conjunction and stand-alone models, but you'll also see non-NIJ ratings like "Level III++" or "Multi-Hit ++."

[juha_teuvonnen]

In my understanding and from the tests that Ive seen ( a thread here linked to a video a few months back) .223 or .308 FMJ will ventilate just about any standard issue body armor. The only body armor that those round will not penetrate is the armor with ceramic trauma plates. I would bet dollars to doughnut's that the .308 that I shoot would slice through just about any standard issue cop or military style body armor.

And I would think the 308 AP or 308 SLAP will go through even more.
I remember many years ago a place in El Monte had a special on bags of israeli 308 AP did anyone else get in on this deal ?

Any other opinions ?

Russian standards, level and what it stops:

1 - 9x18 Makarov, 7.62x38 Nagant
2 - 7.62x25 Tokarev
2a - 12 gage
3 - standard AK rounds (both 7.62x39 and 5.45x39)
4 - 5.45x39 with heat-treated steel core
5 - 7.62x39 with heat-treated steel core, 7.62x54R - mild steel core (7N1)
6 - 7.62x54R "Extended Penetration" with heat-treated steel core (7N13, 7N14)
6a - 7.62x54R AP round, forged heat-treated steel core (7N26)

Russian "class 6a" vest weights 22 lbs, "class 4" or "class 5" weights around 12 lbs.

I would expect AP .308 to be equivalent to one of these: 7N1, 7N14, 7N26. If it's surplus - most likely to 7N1, becasue 7N14 and 7N26 are modern AP rounds.

"Dragon Skin" corresponds to russian class 4 or 5. I suppose ".223 or .308 FMJ will ventilate just about any standard issue body armor." is therefore untrue, given .223 is similar to 5.45x39 and .308 is similar to 7.62x54R.

[Paul]

There are two schools of disaster preparedness: those who stock up on supplies, and those who own a gun. The gun is so you can get the supplies from the stockers.

But since me and my posse will be out hunting looters those looting will likely be dropped from 400 yards by one well placed 168 grain package of love while they're busy with their hands full of spam and romen noodles. :)

I picked up IIIa body armor from Brigade Quartermasters early last year when they had a heck of a sale on desert camo tactical vests. Add in a 20% coupon and the vests ran me $240 each - brand spanking new.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y215/paul1960/Misc/LevelIIIaArmor.jpg

[Paul]

So has anyone gotten a quote on Dragon Skin? Anyway, I can set up a group buy with some body armor if enough people are interested. I certainly am, but I'm not looking for anything that costs several thousand dollars...

Several thousand ... me too. Several hundred ... let's talk.

[kap]

According to NIJ specs, yes, Level II and IIIa soft panels (Kevlar, Goldflex, Specra, et al) does not protect against rifle rounds.

That's why you need three layers of that stuff. ;)



Sorry, bad joke. That's one of the reasons we are where we are today.

[SemiAutoSam]

I believe it when I see it and not a moment sooner.

Thanks for the interesting stats however.

Russian standards, level and what it stops:

1 - 9x18 Makarov, 7.62x38 Nagant
2 - 7.62x25 Tokarev
2a - 12 gage
3 - standard AK rounds (both 7.62x39 and 5.45x39)
4 - 5.45x39 with heat-treated steel core
5 - 7.62x39 with heat-treated steel core, 7.62x54R - mild steel core (7N1)
6 - 7.62x54R "Extended Penetration" with heat-treated steel core (7N13, 7N14)
6a - 7.62x54R AP round, forged heat-treated steel core (7N26)

Russian "class 6a" vest weights 22 lbs, "class 4" or "class 5" weights around 12 lbs.

I would expect AP .308 to be equivalent to one of these: 7N1, 7N14, 7N26. If it's surplus - most likely to 7N1, becasue 7N14 and 7N26 are modern AP rounds.

"Dragon Skin" corresponds to russian class 4 or 5. I suppose ".223 or .308 FMJ will ventilate just about any standard issue body armor." is therefore untrue, given .223 is similar to 5.45x39 and .308 is similar to 7.62x54R.

[Aluisious]

But since me and my posse will be out hunting looters those looting will likely be dropped from 400 yards by one well placed 168 grain package of love while they're busy with their hands full of spam and romen noodles. :)

I picked up IIIa body armor from Brigade Quartermasters early last year when they had a heck of a sale on desert camo tactical vests. Add in a 20% coupon and the vests ran me $240 each - brand spanking new.

You're going to be hunting looters, eh?

Try not to complain too loud when they're sticking the needle in your arm in San Quentin.

[paradox]

I believe it when I see it and not a moment sooner.


Feast your eyes on the videos at the very bottom of the page: http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php
SOV-2000™ Outdoor Ballistic Test Shoot
AK47 7.62x39mm - 40 Rounds at 20 ft
& 9mm 9x19mm - 150 rounds at 10 ft
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/video/ak47-9mm-outdoor.wmv

SOV-2000™ Ballistic Test Shoot
AK47 7.62x39mm - 21 Rounds at 20 ft
& 9mm 9x19mm - 120 rounds at 10 ft
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/video/ak47-9mm.wmv

SOV-1000™ Ballistic Test Shoot
7.62 x 51 mm
(.308)
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/video/308.wmv


Another video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7598767169430383501&hl=en

Here’s an independent test:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001286#000000
Pinnacle Dragon Skin SOV-2000 level III armor was tested this week for an LE agency, along with stand-alone Armored Mobility Incorporated level III plate armor used as a control and for comparison. Both types of armor were conditioned for 12 hours at 170 degrees F, then moved to ambient air for approximately 90 min prior to being shot. The problems associated with the use of inelastic clay backing material have been well documented; as such, the armor was secured to a life-size curvilinear torso replica made of Perma-Gel. Each armor system was shot a minimum of 20 times with five shots of each ammunition type fired against each armor system--one 90 degree perpendicular shot, two shots at 60 degrees obliquity, and two shots at 30 degrees obliquity, using each of the following loads fired at a distance of 10 feet:

-- 5.56 mm 40 gr LeMas Urban Warfare (using a moly coated Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet) with a 3718 f/s average velocity.
-- 5.56 mm M855 62 gr FMJ with a 3054 f/s average velocity.
-- 7.62x39 mm M43 123 gr steel-core FMJ with a 2307 f/s average velocity.
-- .30-06 M2 150 gr FMJ with a 2736 f/s average velocity.

All of the above ammo was successfully stopped by both armor systems in this testing, with no armor failures or penetrations, even after receiving multiple hits.

[Paul]

You're going to be hunting looters, eh?

Try not to complain too loud when they're sticking the needle in your arm in San Quentin.

:)

Not a peep. I promise.

[Solidforce]

so where is the best place to buy a level 3 set of body armor...or even better...lets say your had $300 to $500 dollars to spend on a single piece of body armor...what would you get and where would you get it from? (realistic)

:)

-SF

[m1371]

so where is the best place to buy a level 3 set of body armor...or even better...lets say your had $300 to $500 dollars to spend on a single piece of body armor...what would you get and where would you get it from? (realistic)

:)

-SF

Whatever you get, make sure it's made from Kevlar and not one of the other laminates like Zylon.

US Armor makes good stuff, IMO. http://www.usarmor.com/homepage.htm

If you intend to spend $$$ on body armor, do NOT cheap out and buy crap. The stuff from the gunshow guy comes immediately to mind.