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View Full Version : 223 Reloads or AR15 problem? (PICS ADDED)


MaHoTex
07-28-2011, 2:32 PM
Went to the range yesterday and brought 2 of my ARs. (One is an 18" the other is 20")

One uses mid-length gas system, other is a rifle length...

I was shooting reloads, 26Gr Varget behind a 55gr BT. I did not try any factory ammo, as I really want to get this operating correctly with my reloads.

The Mid-Length gas operated rifle was closing the bolt on the middle of my brass while trying to chamber a new round. I did not have any problems with my rifle length rifle.

Where do I start with this problem? Should I try and replace the weights in the rifle, spring, different powder?

It appears that even when it does chamber a round, there is a very slight dent/mark on brass (about 3/4" to 1") from the bottom of the case.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/3310/1003037.jpg
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2861/1003036j.jpg

spareparts
07-28-2011, 2:45 PM
Does it look like this (except in an AR of course)?

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRK__SFa5K7Ny_o6qYw_w_NXhzZs-wWCWvF4zt3-BIyrvI2RRgC5g

MaHoTex
07-28-2011, 2:54 PM
It is hard for me to see what is going on in the picture, but it looks like the bullet is sideways in that picture. I am not seeing that in my AR.

The spent round is ejected, the new round is at an angle. The bullet is pointed in the correct direction (into the barrel. The primer end is aligned correctly (L to R of centerline.) It gets trapped so that the bolt does not appear to be catching the end of the bullet or something. I wish I had a picture to post. The primer side is pressed down against the magazine, the bullet end is aligned in the barrel and the bolt is closed on the middle of the brass of the bullet.

PyroFox79
07-28-2011, 2:56 PM
Did you try different magazines?

MaHoTex
07-28-2011, 3:11 PM
I used 4 ProMAGS, but I did not try my other CMGs (I think that is what they are called.)

I simulated it in my shop and got some images. I just need to figure out how I can post them...

AeroEngi
07-28-2011, 3:12 PM
Could be short stroking? Maybe using a hotter load might work. Does the rifle operate normally when using factory loads?

Low-Pressure
07-28-2011, 3:20 PM
It could be the magazine and it can be your re-loads. You need to try different loads with that magazine and that load with a different magazine.
Try to load some loads that has less powder and some that has a little more.

MaHoTex
07-28-2011, 3:21 PM
26 gr of Varget is all I can get in the case and it works on my other rifle. I did not try factory rounds this trip, was all reloads. I do not think this happened on my last trip out... Seems odd to me. Wishing I had a high speed camera now... :)

818gtiguy
07-28-2011, 3:38 PM
Try different mags. Get some PMAGS.

ireload
07-28-2011, 3:47 PM
I agree with others regarding trying a different magazine.

sevensix2x51
07-28-2011, 3:53 PM
did you fire the last round in the magazine, and if so, did it hold the bolt open? how about the bullet, is it cannelured? did you crimp it in, and/or did the bullet set back when it jammed from perhaps the feed ramps? i would try some new mags as well, and fire a single round to see if your bolt is going back far enough to hold open. if you have some, bring some m193 along and see if it runs them. good luck!

BajaJames83
07-28-2011, 3:55 PM
def looks like a mag problem! or there might be something wrong with the gas system. from the sound of it your load should be fine. did you assemble the rifle yourself?
hopefully you try a different mag and it solves the problem.

artichokie
07-28-2011, 4:03 PM
Is every round not chambering?

I had a similar issue, but it only happened on the 2nd or 3rd to last round in my magazine. I concluded it was a magazine problem. The round was tilted and didnt catch when the bolt moved back to battery. this resulted in the bolt closing on a halfway loaded round.

killshot44
07-28-2011, 4:40 PM
It's not likely to be your ammo. That's a known load.

Try switching the Lower from the 20" to the 18". If it works then I'd look at the Lower/Bolt Catch/Magazine interaction.
If it doesn't work, it "could" be a gas issue with the Middy.

Are these new (to you) Uppers/Rifles?
Worked before?

5.56Geo
07-28-2011, 5:08 PM
What is the C.O.A.L. on your reloads?

MaHoTex
07-28-2011, 5:11 PM
Wow... So many responses... Let me see if I can provide all of the answers.

These are both new rifles. I built the 20" but not the upper on the 18". Both have been to the range without problems before.

I will focus on the 18" since that is where my problem lies.
- Started with BCM Bolt on the 20" and the RRA Chrome on the 18", but swapped during the range trip... (See below)
- I did fire the last round and I do not recall if the bolt held open. I will check that on my next outing.
-The bullet is cannelured, but I did not add a crimp.
-The bullet did not set back when it jammed. The angle was too great for that. The bullet was hanging at the top of the barrel and not on the feed ramp.
-I do have some m193 that are factory and will try those next time.
-This is not happening every round. it is 1-3 per magazine. It did not appear to matter if it was the 2nd round or the 10th round, though I do not recall it occuring on the last shot in the magazine.
-Overall length is 2.235"-2.24" Usually on the high side closer to 2.24"

Another point to note... I had not shot the rifle in the last 5 weeks. I took it out and did not oil or grease the bolt before I shot it. When I was having the problem, I oiled and swapped the bolts between the 20" rifle and the 18" rifle. I then fired 20 rounds through both the 18" and 20" and had no more chambering issues... BUT... the brass out of the 18" has little tiny marks at the same place where I saw it getting jammed in the bolt.

I just picked up some Casey gun grease and will try it out. Also, I will try my other mags. I hope it is not the ProMags... I have a pile of those... Dang....

MaHoTex
07-28-2011, 5:17 PM
Try different mags. Get some PMAGS.

Is that the Magpul Polymers?

huckberry668
07-28-2011, 5:17 PM
It's the ProMags. Both their pistol and rifle mags suck!

MaHoTex
07-28-2011, 5:31 PM
It's the ProMags. Both their pistol and rifle mags suck!

Oh no... Take it back!!! I have a bunch of those things... Seems we have a LOT of people saying to get new mags... So, I will place an order for some tonight... I want 10/20s... What kind and where to buy?

fullspeed1
07-28-2011, 6:48 PM
You should be golden with 26gr of Varget underneath a 55 grainer. I am at a midrange load with an H buffer in my midlength and haven't had any issues at all. Btw, Get some damn PMAGS NOW!!!

Low-Pressure
07-28-2011, 7:23 PM
Another thing to check, are you shooting off the bench and are you riding your magazine? This could also cause your magazine to tilt a little.

thunderbolt
07-28-2011, 7:24 PM
Try riflegear.
http://www.riflegear.com/p-351-magpul-pmag-10-round-20-body-magazine-223556mm.aspx

AlliedArmory
07-28-2011, 7:30 PM
I would definitely go with PMAGs or some USGI.

Fyathyrio
07-28-2011, 8:04 PM
Oh no... Take it back!!! I have a bunch of those things... Seems we have a LOT of people saying to get new mags... So, I will place an order for some tonight... I want 10/20s... What kind and where to buy?
Calegalmags.com usually has them on my door before the charge clears my bank.

sonnyt650
07-28-2011, 8:09 PM
Weren't you using the same magazines for both rifles? I have to believe it's a timing thing, ARs are pretty well known to have those too. I used to have an ar15barrels.com link for how to diagnose feeding problems -- can't find it anymore, sorry.

Found it: http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml

MaHoTex
07-28-2011, 8:33 PM
Same Mags in both rifles.

Jimmy310
07-28-2011, 8:40 PM
Im going to have to get new mags before i try out my first batch of reloads too (i use promags with the green follower too). Im using a LC 55gr. fmjbt w/25gr of imr4895. My OAL is the same as OP's and i didnt crimp mine aswell.

Striker9
07-28-2011, 8:50 PM
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/AR15-Troubleshooting-Tec-t5332.html

I think you may find solution to your problem here. Also, not sure if you listed OAL? I had prob similar to that with long rounds. Immediately stopped shooting those, loaded others and was good.

Bongos
07-28-2011, 8:59 PM
Well if they are C-Product mags or Pmags should be fine
here are some loads I've worked up for the 223
These all function in my AR

223= 25.5grn of 748 62gr fmj
223= 25.3gr of H335 62gr fmj (testing)
223= 24.5grn of H335 62gr fmj (2 MOA 1:7)
223= 25.3grn of H335 55grn FMJ (semi-auto plinkers (.75 MOA in 1:8 &1:9)
223= 26grn of 748 55grn FMJ (semi-auto plinkers MOA 1:8, 1:9)
223= 27grn of varget 53grn hp (SCAR16s 1:7 .5MOA)

Striker9
07-28-2011, 9:02 PM
Im going to have to get new mags before i try out my first batch of reloads too (i use promags with the green follower too). Im using a LC 55gr. fmjbt w/25gr of imr4895. My OAL is the same as OP's and i didnt crimp mine aswell.

Just curious, are you guys shooting semi or bolt? If semi, why would you not crimp? Safety precaution if nothing else....lots of stuff moving around from round to round. Maybe it's just me but always crimp the semi AR rounds. Especially if you have a double feed problem, which i've had.

MaHoTex
07-29-2011, 7:27 AM
Try riflegear.
http://www.riflegear.com/p-351-magpul-pmag-10-round-20-body-magazine-223556mm.aspx

What is difference between the one you listed and this one?
http://www.riflegear.com/p-418-magpul-pmag-10-round-20-body-magazine-ranger-plate.aspx

This one shows "Ranger Plate"... Whatever that is... Is that just to hokey little handle at the bottom?

I just ordered 4 of them to add to my pile mags. :(

Guess we will go to the scrap yard with the ProMags... (J/K)

Jimmy310
07-29-2011, 12:37 PM
Just curious, are you guys shooting semi or bolt? If semi, why would you not crimp? Safety precaution if nothing else....lots of stuff moving around from round to round. Maybe it's just me but always crimp the semi AR rounds. Especially if you have a double feed problem, which i've had.

Im shooting semi out of 2 AR's (1st is a 20" 1/12 twist, 2nd is a 16" 1/9 twist). Many people reload .223 and dont crimp. My lee deluxe .223 die set does not come with the factory crimp die. The neck tension of the case will hold the bullet just fine. As for an accuracy, some people buy into it, most competition target shooters dont.

This is my first batch of 223. I hope i dont run into any cycling problems, but if i do changes will be made.

bjl333
07-29-2011, 12:46 PM
Is your BCG semi or full? What buffer weight do you have in the middy? How long is the buffer spring?

Your shells might be pushing a heavier load with the middy. Have you shot any factory 5.56 rounds through the middy??

MaHoTex
07-29-2011, 1:26 PM
Is your BCG semi or full? What buffer weight do you have in the middy? How long is the buffer spring?

Your shells might be pushing a heavier load with the middy. Have you shot any factory 5.56 rounds through the middy??

The Stock, buffer, spring etc were what came in the el cheapo DPMS Pardus kit.
Here is the link to the kit I bought for that... http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=436692

For the Bolt, it is the RockRiverArms SemiAuto Chrome BCG, I did change bolts with my BCM auto BCG after experiencing problems. I cleaned and olied and did not experience more failure to feeds, but had little marks on my brass still, here is the link to the RRA BCG:
http://rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=377

fairfaxjim
07-29-2011, 1:41 PM
Is your BCG semi or full? What buffer weight do you have in the middy? How long is the buffer spring?

Your shells might be pushing a heavier load with the middy. Have you shot any factory 5.56 rounds through the middy??

I think this is a good place to start. Check your buffer and spring and make sure you have the correct weight for the mid-length gas system. You could be experiencing bolt bounce back causing the the next round to get stripped off before the magazine can push it up fully into the correct positon for a clean chambering. Other problems besides buffer/spring combination could cause this - sticky or poorly functioning mags can prevent the cartridge from being in place also, as can outside pressure on the magazine and even improperly installed bullet button mag releases.

The mid-length gas system is designed to provide the same gas dwell time with a 16" barrel as the rifle gas system does on a 20" barrel. Both systems result in 7.5" between the gas port and the end of an A2 flash hider. Since you are using the midlength system on an 18" barrel, you will have 9.5" between the gas port and the end of the flash hider. That just happens to be the same as the carbine length gas system on a 16" barrel (the middy gas port us pushed 2" out from the carbine gas port.) If you are running a rifle buffer, you may need to try increasing the buffer weight. If you have or can borrow a carbine buffer, give it a try. A heavier buffer should slow down the bolt carrier and give the magazine time to present the cartridge for chambering.

MaHoTex
07-29-2011, 2:33 PM
It has the standard Carbine buffer assembly and spring. I just weighed the buffer at 2.96 Oz. Seems a heavier buffer assembly would slow it down, and might help.

By the way, my brass is ejecting at the 2 o'clock position instead of the 4 o'clock position if that tells us anything. It seem if the bolt was closing faster, it would catch the brass and push it forward since it has less time to pull it out of the action before the bolt starts closing, so a heavier buffer would slow the whole process down and allow the brass to eject to the right/read (4 o'clock).

Perhaps the spent brass is keeping the new round from feeding... Wish I had extra carbine buffers laying around to try out.

Gunsrruss
07-29-2011, 2:39 PM
There will be those that will say no way, but I took my triggers apart and put the hammer springs in upside down. It adds more tension to the hammer which slows up the cycle. Once I turned it around I haven't had a problem sense. So check the hammer spring on the one that works and if it's different than the one that doesn't change the orientation of the one that your having a problem with. If you need to call me just PM me and I'll give you my number

fairfaxjim
07-29-2011, 3:21 PM
It has the standard Carbine buffer assembly and spring. Seems a heavier buffer assembly would slow it down.

By the way, my brass is ejecting at the 2 o'clock position instead of the 4 o'clock position if that tells us anything. It seem if the bolt was closing faster, it would catch the brass and push it forward since it has less time to pull it out of the action before the bolt starts closing, so a heavier buffer would slow the whole process down and allow the brass to eject to the right/read (4 o'clock).

Perhaps the spent brass is keeping the new round from feeding... Wish I had extra carbine buffers laying around to try out.

If you already have a carbine buffer, you may want to try an H buffer. It will, in theory, smooth out the action a bit and move the ejection position back.

I didn't mention it, but you could also be short cycling the bolt carrier, in that it never goes all the way back. This could be to too heavy of a buffer - doubtful, or problems with the gas system. Check the bolt carrier gas key and make sure it is tight and the bolts holding it on are staked. Also inspect the gas tube and it's connections for any excessive leakage. Check the bolt gas rings too.

21SF
07-29-2011, 5:21 PM
Here you go.

CK_32
07-29-2011, 5:49 PM
Try factory ammo...

Still does it then try a differant buffer...

If it works then try a hotter load... Don't blow your self up just get a little bit hotter if you can with in reason.

If it still does it try another buffer weight.

MaHoTex
07-29-2011, 6:06 PM
Ok... so I have orderer 4 new PMAGS from riflegear and an H and H2 buffer from Stagarms... Got some Casey gun grease from my LGS... will try it all out and see where it takes me. I suspect a heavier buffer will fix me right up. Grease can't hurt... and I will have 4 more mags to boot. It will all be good!

21SF, Thanks for the graphic. That is exactly what I am suspecting... Keeping my fingers crossed that this resolves it!

MaHoTex
08-19-2011, 12:17 PM
Ok... so here is my range report... Not happy....

I tried PMAGS and the problem of the round getting chambered appears to be solved.
I put the Pro-mag in with factory loads (Federal 193s) and the last round in the mag got stuck like shot in the picture above. Did not happen on any of the PMAGS or CMMG mags.

HOWEVER, the rifle is still ejecting at 1-2 o'clock.

I have tried several different type of ammo now, including reloads. I have tried standard, H and H2 buffers with no noticable change. Next suggestion would be what? I heard changing the buffer spring might be the next thing. Would I need to get a lighter spring or a Wolf heavy spring to pull the ejection back to 3-4 Oclock?

Low-Pressure
08-19-2011, 12:35 PM
Ok... so here is my range report... Not happy....

I tried PMAGS and the problem of the round getting chambered appears to be solved.
I put the Pro-mag in with factory loads (Federal 193s) and the last round in the mag got stuck like shot in the picture above. Did not happen on any of the PMAGS or CMMG mags.

HOWEVER, the rifle is still ejecting at 1-2 o'clock.

I have tried several different type of ammo now, including reloads. I have tried standard, H and H2 buffers with no noticable change. Next suggestion would be what? I heard changing the buffer spring might be the next thing. Would I need to get a lighter spring or a Wolf heavy spring to pull the ejection back to 3-4 Oclock?

On my AR, the brass ejects differently on different brands and different reloads (powder, weight of projectile and amount of charge). I reload on the light side and used to get a 3-5 o'clock ejection on my 55gr bullet. Recently I loaded up some 62gr and they are ejecting 1-2 o'clock.
I doesn't bother me much, so I usually leave my load alone.....

epcii
08-19-2011, 2:50 PM
Ugh, Promags suck.

huckberry668
08-20-2011, 7:53 PM
My Armalite AR(T) ejects to about 1, 2 o'clock too. there is nothing wrong with where it ejects them as long as it ejects them reliably.