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Pthfndr
07-25-2011, 9:33 PM
There's been a bunch of threads lately asking what rifle to buy, and what barrel length to get if they want to shoot out to 1000 yards.

Since it's most commonly asked about the Rem 700 and Savage rifles in .308, this will be specific to that cartridge.

One thing someone always posts is a link to this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15qj032UJ1I of Frank (Lowlight on Snipershide) shooting a 18" barrel out to 1000 yards using Corbon match 175gr match ammo, which has a published muzzle velocity of 2650 fps from a 25" barrel. (for contrast Federal Gold Medal Match ammo with the same bullet has a published MV of 2600 fps)

Frank is an accomplished shooter, knows his ballistics and what his rifle and ammo are capable of, and WHERE they are capable of doing it. He's an instructor at Rifles Only near Kingville, TX. Only a little bit above sea level (asl), and very humid. He also spends a lot of time in Colorado. Well above sea level and tends to be not very humid.

It's been documented that from a 24"-26" barrel that the muzzle velocity loss is not as great as was traditionally thought (25 fps/inch). So, for the sake of the argument let's say that the Corbon ammo will only lose 100 fps MV from the 18" barrel. (a lot of it has to do with the burn rate of the powder used. A slower powder might lose more velocity. Which is why powder choice is very important)

So let's compare some numbers as run through JBM with the atmospheric pressure corrected so it calculated the density altitude. Speed of sound is given by JBM as 1144 fps (though that also changes slightly with environmental conditions)

These are only rough numbers calculated by JBM with some given inputs and not hard scientific data, so don't anyone get too picky :)

First, the Fed GMM 175 MV 2600 fps calculated for conditions today at the Sac Valley range. Elevation 200' asl

Temp 85
Humidity 27%
Baro 29.85

At 1000 yards the bullet velocity is calculated to be 1145 fps. (just barely supersonic)

Next we'll take Frank's 18" barrel and ammo at 2550 fps, using the same environmental numbers.

At 1000 yards the bullet velocity is calculated to be only 1119 fps. (subsonic)

What if he was shooting that video, today, at the Rifles Only facility?

Alt 59' asl
Temp 90
Humidity 71%
Baro 29.88

At 1000 yards the bullet velocity is calculated to be only 1128 fps (subsonic)


But what if he was shooting that video, today, in Colorado?

Alt 6000'
Temp 77
Humidity 32%
Baro 30.04

At 1000 yards the bullet velocity is calculated to be 1324 fps! (way over the supersonic barrier)

Ok, let's say your barrel runs a little slower so the MV is only 2500, it's winter and on the cold side, and a high pressure ridge is moving in, and you're shooting at Sac Valley?

Alt 200'
Temp 60
Humidity 25%
Baro 30.04

At 1000 yards the bullet velocity is calculated to be only 1059 fps. Well below supersonic. In fact, it's only going 1146 at 900 yards. Just barely supersonic there.

The Sierra 175gr Matchking bullet, due to it's shape, is very forgiving as it goes trans sonic, and remain relatively stable for some more distance, and allow for reasonably accurate hits.

By contrast the Fed 168gr Matchking is not, and has a tendency to become unstable and start wobbling as it goes trans sonic.

So, can a 18" barrel reach out to 1000 yards? Absolutely if the conditions are right, the right ammo is used, and the right barrel is used.

Some barrels are "slow" and some are "fast". Meaning for a specific load one might have a slower or faster muzzle velocity than another. Match barrels (or custom if you prefer) will be on the fast side because of their tighter chamber/throat tolerances. Factory barrel will tend to be on the slower side because they have looser chambers and longer throats (thanks to the lawyers) which "eat up" some of the pressure needed to propel the bullet down the barrel.

You can only put so much powder in a case and safely fire the cartridge. So even if you have a slow barrel there is a limit to how hot you can safely load the cartridge to make up for it being slow. That's why for competition such as Palma or other long range shooting they will use longer barrels, and choose a powder with a burn rate that maximizes the time the bullet is being propelled to get the most velocity with best accuracy.

chicoredneck
07-25-2011, 9:47 PM
I have a feeling you just broke some 308 die hards hearts with your post. Yes, the 308 is a very marginal cartridge for target shooting out to 1000 yards and a very poor cartridge for hunting/target destruction at 1000 yards

Dean
07-25-2011, 9:50 PM
well written post. Your post should become a sticky in Centerfire Rifles. Your post is a perfect example of what these forums were truly intended for, the free exchange of knowledge and information that helps the broadest base of shooters and will make all of our shooting experiencess that much better.

Thanks again for taking your time to post this and for and sharring your vast knowledge and expertise with all of us.

Dean

Pthfndr
07-25-2011, 9:52 PM
... and a very poor cartridge for hunting/target destruction at 1000 yards

For hunting 4 legged animals yes. For 2 legged, no. At 1000 yards it has only 100ft/lbs. less energy than a 158gr soft point out of a .357 magnum at the muzzle.

ChrisToad
07-25-2011, 10:39 PM
Big thanks to the OP. As someone who is just starting a .308 build, I found this VERY informative. TY!

skkeeter
07-25-2011, 10:53 PM
I shot out to 1150y using my GPS Defense Custom .308. 4 out of 10 hits on a 12x30" steel target after getting my dope set. Perfect conditions with light winds at sea level using my hand loads. Thanks for the post:thumbsup:

al8550
07-26-2011, 5:02 AM
Great info thanks

Dhena81
07-26-2011, 9:54 AM
Good post

Iggy
07-26-2011, 12:10 PM
I was told that under 20" there is a greater loss in velocity because you are not burning all your powder. Is there any truth in this? Is 20" the minimum to maximize the powder in the volume of a 308 case?

drunktank
07-26-2011, 12:22 PM
Depends on the powder. You'd need a faster burning powder for that short of length.

drunktank
07-26-2011, 12:23 PM
On a side note thanks fir the post OP. I saw your profile name on a license plate a few years back!

Bug Splat
07-26-2011, 12:25 PM
I was told that under 20" there is a greater loss in velocity because you are not burning all your powder. Is there any truth in this? Is 20" the minimum to maximize the powder in the volume of a 308 case?

it really depends on the powder you are burning. A faster powder would be better for a shorter barrel. A slow burning one will not get you the best speed and you will have a big fireball coming out the barrel.

308 is a very popular round but I never found it attractive. IMO it is not a 1000y round, its a 800y or less round. If 1000y is your goal there are dozens of better rounds to use. Yes, it will go that far but its falling like a rock at that range. Most scopes will need a sloped rail to get out that far. Wind also pushes it quite a bit. Its not an ideal 1000y round.

qaz5109
07-26-2011, 12:55 PM
I hit 1000 yards last weekend at piru I was hitting 902 man size target all day long with a 20" Fulton 308ar ammo was hornady 168 gr amax

Hoop
07-26-2011, 2:59 PM
I have a 16" 308 AR, it makes about 2450FPS with the 175smk load I have been using.Considering that a buddy's 20" SPS was only 2500fps with my ammunition I was happy as hell with what I was getting. I guess I could come out to Sac Valley and bomb away at 1k but I don't think it would do very well.

it really depends on the powder you are burning. A faster powder would be better for a shorter barrel. A slow burning one will not get you the best speed and you will have a big fireball coming out the barrel.


Have you experimented with that at all?

I've tried faster powders out of shorter (16-18) 308 rifles vs. slower ones and the slower powders always got better velocities with the bullets I tried.

Coded-Dude
07-26-2011, 3:07 PM
great read so far. thanks for the info(everyone)!

Iggy
07-26-2011, 4:12 PM
Depends on the powder. You'd need a faster burning powder for that short of length.

it really depends on the powder you are burning. A faster powder would be better for a shorter barrel. A slow burning one will not get you the best speed and you will have a big fireball coming out the barrel.

308 is a very popular round but I never found it attractive. IMO it is not a 1000y round, its a 800y or less round. If 1000y is your goal there are dozens of better rounds to use. Yes, it will go that far but its falling like a rock at that range. Most scopes will need a sloped rail to get out that far. Wind also pushes it quite a bit. Its not an ideal 1000y round.

I have a 16" 308 AR, it makes about 2450FPS with the 175smk load I have been using.Considering that a buddy's 20" SPS was only 2500fps with my ammunition I was happy as hell with what I was getting. I guess I could come out to Sac Valley and bomb away at 1k but I don't think it would do very well.



Have you experimented with that at all?

I've tried faster powders out of shorter (16-18) 308 rifles vs. slower ones and the slower powders always got better velocities with the bullets I tried.

That's the idea. We are also talking about safe pressures. You can always use faster burning powders, but you will also have pressure spikes. So faster isn't always better.

That's why I was asking independent of the type of powder. There is only so much room for powder, there is only so much room for the powder to burn, and you can only have so much pressure, so for 308 are we talking a min of 20"?

Jpach
07-26-2011, 5:23 PM
I have a 16" 308 AR, it makes about 2450FPS with the 175smk load I have been using.Considering that a buddy's 20" SPS was only 2500fps with my ammunition I was happy as hell with what I was getting. I guess I could come out to Sac Valley and bomb away at 1k but I don't think it would do very well.



Have you experimented with that at all?

I've tried faster powders out of shorter (16-18) 308 rifles vs. slower ones and the slower powders always got better velocities with the bullets I tried.

The 16" will get you to 1K, and even a bit further, but it really isn't ideal. That being said, it can do a whole lot better than one would imagine.

The thing to remember is that a 16" 308 AR has different applications than most 308 bolt guns, even so, it will do OK if you are just looking to bang steel at those ~~1K ranges.

djleisure
07-26-2011, 5:30 PM
well written post. Your post should become a sticky in Centerfire Rifles. Your post is a perfect example of what these forums were truly intended for, the free exchange of knowledge and information that helps the broadest base of shooters and will make all of our shooting experiencess that much better.

Thanks again for taking your time to post this and for and sharring your vast knowledge and expertise with all of us.

Dean
Yeah, but then how would we know which three guns (AND ONLY THREE GUNS!) you would take when SHTF?!? Or which optic truly is better: Aimpoint, ACOG or EOTech?!?! And what about zombies? ZOMG!!! :D

Seriously though, I agree and that's some solid infos there, OP - thanks!

Hoop
07-26-2011, 5:31 PM
That's the idea. We are also talking about safe pressures. You can always use faster burning powders, but you will also have pressure spikes. So faster isn't always better.

That's why I was asking independent of the type of powder. There is only so much room for powder, there is only so much room for the powder to burn, and you can only have so much pressure, so for 308 are we talking a min of 20"?

What's-his-name who started this thread answered those questions in his initial post. Basically you need a certain amount of VELOCITY; a match barrel might make that speed in 18-20" while a factory barrel might need 26".

So you need to figure out what kind of velocity you want vs. how much you want to spend for a barrel and go from there. If you're getting a match barrel then the barrel maker should have a good idea, if it's a factory rifle then just google around to see what other owners are getting with theirs to make an educated guess.

Hoop
07-26-2011, 5:40 PM
The 16" will get you to 1K, and even a bit further, but it really isn't ideal.

I didn't put it together for that. I chrono'd a few rifles and googled around for range reports and found that unless I got more than 20" (or splurged for a high $$$$ barrel) all the velocities were very close together. So I just went with a 16" that was 1) readily available and 2) on sale.

So far it's been shooting about MOA.

Like I said it's making almost as much velocity as a friend's 20" bolt action remington so I'm happy as hell...

Madpyro
07-26-2011, 5:40 PM
Thank You for an informative read!!

Iggy
07-26-2011, 5:54 PM
Absolutely, velocity is king, but one thing you need to keep in mind also like the OP mentioned is atmospheric conditions. While it may be safe to have a hot load in certain conditions it may be dangerous in others and vice versa.

Custom barrels can also come in various diameters, which is why you can get higher velocities from a tighter "custom" barrel. However, pressure is still an issue and in some cases more so.

Uriah02
07-26-2011, 5:55 PM
Good post! I am curious what the optimum barrel length for X cartridge, be it a 556 or 308. My understanding of the 20" barrel designed by Mr. Stoner was the necessary length for the gas system not the distance required for the bullet to achieve optimum velocity.

Fjold
07-26-2011, 6:12 PM
The 175 SMK at 2450 fps muzzle velocity (altitude 2,000 feet, 79 deg F, & 20% humidity) will be subsonic at 1,000 yards.

Iggy
07-26-2011, 6:28 PM
175 SMK's need to be shot at 2600. That is my ideal number, but 2550 will get there ok.

Knife Edge
07-26-2011, 7:01 PM
Ive heard some reference to supersonic and thought I'd add a bit to the mix. At 68F in dry air sound travels at 1125 ft/sec. In dry air the speed of sound is dependent upon temperature. In cooler air Mach 1 is achieved at a lower velocity than in warm air; the bullet transitions to subsonic at a higher velocity. Another example, two jets flying at different altitudes in the troposphere (part of the atmosphere that has a standard lapse rate of 2C/1,000'), the lower altitude jet actually has a higher groundspeed due to the warmer air.

Under extreme temperature spreads of 40F to 100F, you are looking at a transonic shift of 65'/sec, almost enough to make the difference between an 18" and 22" barrel. This may be huge when pushing 168 SMK out to maximum range (beyond 900).

For a 1,000 yard engagement, I think the 175 is suitable in a barrel as small as 18". Like another poster mentioned, it would be nearly the same energy as a .357 magnum!

Unrelated but interesting:

Here are some graphs for my OBR with 168 that has been trigged, the ranges are dead on for the drop. What will be interesting to the new shooter, is the 10" of drop between 220y and 320y, vs the 10" drop between 890y and 900y. Ranging becomes critical as these rounds get slow. If you are off by 10 yards, your round may be 10" high or low. On an 18" plate with a POA in the middle, that's a solid miss. With a laser rangefinder (assuming you have a good one), ranging isn't so bad. To the new guy trying to range with an MLR or Mildot it can get discouraging.

http://tapatalk.com/mu/c6e4d0dd-6ce2-ffe5.jpg

http://tapatalk.com/mu/c6e4d0dd-6cfd-168f.jpg

http://tapatalk.com/mu/c6e4d0dd-6d17-d1c0.jpg

OP made a great post, reality is if you need a rifle that will hit 1,000 yards, an 18" OBR with 175 SMK will do it. On SnipersHide guys have pulled it off with a 16", the question is at what altitude and under what conditions.

Pthfndr
07-26-2011, 7:56 PM
For those who ask about what powders can be used, go buy a copy of Quick Load. You can enter all sorts of variables about the barrel, and it will give more data than you can easily digest. Time of burn, time in the barrel, predicted pressure and velocity etc, with various powders.

For those with a scientific bent, go read the articles on Bryan Litz's Applied Ballistics website http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles.htm. Bryan is not only a top Palma/Long Range shooter, but he really is a rocket scientist, and the chief ballistician for Berger Bullets.

I am not a rocket scientist. I just shoot a lot. I run the NCPPRC long range matches and clinic. I observe a lot of what happens and take note of it. I talk with other LR shooters about their experiences.

RugerNo1
07-26-2011, 8:24 PM
For a little more accurate data when using JBM or any other ballistic calculator one should use G7 or "Litz" ballistic coefficients as well. The old G1 uses a flat based profile where the G7 uses a boattail profile for the bullet. You will get data more in line with real world results that way.

At least, that has been my experience.

Good thread Pthfndr!

Pthfndr
07-26-2011, 9:00 PM
For a little more accurate data when using JBM or any other ballistic calculator one should use G7 or "Litz" ballistic coefficients as well. The old G1 uses a flat based profile where the G7 uses a boattail profile for the bullet. You will get date more in line with real world results that way.

At least, that has been my experience.

Good thread Pthfndr!

That's a very good point. The numbers manufacturers give is typically the G1, not the G7. The calcs I did were using the 175 SMK Litz from the pull down library.

Hoop
07-26-2011, 9:38 PM
Good post! I am curious what the optimum barrel length for X cartridge, be it a 556 or 308. My understanding of the 20" barrel designed by Mr. Stoner was the necessary length for the gas system not the distance required for the bullet to achieve optimum velocity.

I'm probably going to get yelled at for this but there is no optimum it's just what you want to do with it, what you can actually afford, and what you think would look cool sitting in the safe between the Garand and your half-dozen Mosins...

Jpach
07-26-2011, 9:53 PM
I didn't put it together for that. I chrono'd a few rifles and googled around for range reports and found that unless I got more than 20" (or splurged for a high $$$$ barrel) all the velocities were very close together. So I just went with a 16" that was 1) readily available and 2) on sale.

So far it's been shooting about MOA.

Like I said it's making almost as much velocity as a friend's 20" bolt action remington so I'm happy as hell...

Of course, and exactly. The 16" is pretty much all you need for just about everything. If you need to hit 1K get something bigger than a 308 lol.

shakeyjake
07-26-2011, 10:07 PM
Thanks u answered almost every question about .308 and 1000yds Ive ever had. Great info and In like the way it was presented.

Pthfndr
07-26-2011, 11:06 PM
I am curious what the optimum barrel length for X cartridge, be it a 556 or 308.

I'm probably going to get yelled at for this but there is no optimum it's just what you want to do with it, what you can actually afford, and what you think would look cool sitting in the safe between the Garand and your half-dozen Mosins...

Hoop's statement is pretty much on the mark.

Again, let's confine this to the .308 Winchester cartridge.

It's not enough to say, "I want to shoot out to 1K".

How do you plan to shoot? Only from a bench? F-T/R class or Tactical long range where you're shooting almost exclusively from a bipod prone on the ground? High Power/Palma, with iron sights and using only a sling for support? Hunting where you might have to carry the rifle for hours on end?

All of those will determine the weight of the rifle, which means you have to decide on the length and profile of the barrel. Either because of competition rules, or how much weight you can deal with for the type of use.

How recoil tolerant are you? For a given load a heavier rifle has less felt recoil. A lighter rifle has more.

How much CDI factor do you want? Short barrels look sexy, long barrels look geeky.

AM9000
07-26-2011, 11:17 PM
Its always best to have your expectations grounded in reality.

Great post.

rero360
07-27-2011, 12:04 AM
I have a feeling you just broke some 308 die hards hearts with your post. Yes, the 308 is a very marginal cartridge for target shooting out to 1000 yards and a very poor cartridge for hunting/target destruction at 1000 yards

I disagree, I think the .308 is a great cartridge for shooting to 1K, and I'll explain why:

Yes there are a number of other cartridges out there that are better suited, faster, flatter shooting, harder hitting, however with the vast majority of them you deal with harder to find/ more expensive ammo and or shorter barrel life due to increased throat erosion.

Another point is, in using the .308, which has a large selection of ammo to choose from, is pretty darn cheap, and is very easy on barrels, is that it makes the shooter be better. I doubt I'd be as good as I am reading the wind (still lots of work to do) if I was shooting something like a .300win mag or or any of the other "laser beam" rounds.

Knife Edge
07-27-2011, 11:23 AM
I disagree, I think the .308 is a great cartridge for shooting to 1K, and I'll explain why:

Yes there are a number of other cartridges out there that are better suited, faster, flatter shooting, harder hitting, however with the vast majority of them you deal with harder to find/ more expensive ammo and or shorter barrel life due to increased throat erosion.

Another point is, in using the .308, which has a large selection of ammo to choose from, is pretty darn cheap, and is very easy on barrels, is that it makes the shooter be better. I doubt I'd be as good as I am reading the wind (still lots of work to do) if I was shooting something like a .300win mag or or any of the other "laser beam" rounds.

Excellent. At $1.00/rd (you have to wait for the sales) the .308 is hard to beat. Furthermore, finding ranges beyond 1,000 is out of the realm of possibility for most. My good friend who shoots 300 Win-mag out to 1,700 is blessed by a 15 minute drive to his range, he also lives in MI. He reloads and spends about what I do on ammo, but he also has about $1600 in reloading gear and has been taught by the best how to.

Anyone stating that a .308 can't shoot 1,000 yards needs to spend more time shooting or they leaped over that round entirely and have minimal experience with it.

Hoop
07-27-2011, 2:28 PM
1600? You could start reloading for under 300. Shop around, check ebay, lots and lots of deals out there.


How much CDI factor do you want? Short barrels look sexy

Yeap, especially when you put a big huge scope on top of it:

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa195/Hooperinius/16rifle.jpg

Now I just need front and rear sights (even though I'll never use em) and it'll be complete.

17+1
07-27-2011, 3:08 PM
So does this mean that Ann Margret's not coming?

mattt
07-31-2011, 12:42 PM
My 30" savage 308 is pushing 175 smk past 2800 with no signs of pressure. I will find out how well it works next weekend at 1k.

DirtRacer151
07-31-2011, 2:07 PM
Great post, Rob!!

HBchevelle68
07-31-2011, 3:36 PM
I have a feeling you just broke some 308 die hards hearts with your post. Yes, the 308 is a very marginal cartridge for target shooting out to 1000 yards and a very poor cartridge for hunting/target destruction at 1000 yards

I completely disagree with you. To say it is a marginal cartridge for 1000 yards is completely false. The US military has had multiple confirmed kill shots with the standard .308 round out to a mile. There was even a "Tac TV" episode where they successfully completed a 1 mile hit on a human sized target at 1 mile. 1 mile = 1760 yard. Therefore at 100o yards is well within the range of the .308. I wouldnt say its the cartridge fault if you can't hit 1000 yards, chances are its the shooter

DirtRacer151
07-31-2011, 3:38 PM
I completely disagree with you. To say it is a marginal cartridge for 1000 yards is completely false. The US military has had multiple confirmed kill shots with the standard .308 round out to a mile. There was even a "Tac TV" episode where they successfully completed a 1 mile hit on a human sized target at 1 mile. 1 mile = 1760 yard. Therefore at 100o yards is well within the range of the .308. I wouldnt say its the cartridge fault if you can't hit 1000 yards, chances are its the shooter

WOW

wooger
07-31-2011, 3:42 PM
LOL, there is someone with lots of experience!

RugerNo1
07-31-2011, 4:29 PM
No one is saying that the .308 can not be used at 1000 yards, but there are plenty of obstacles that the cartridge faces to reach such distance. Before trusting a TV show for information one should read up on real world ballistics.

Here is a couple links that talk about long range ballistics and reloading for .308 Win.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/10/cartridges-loading-308-for-palma.html
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/01/cartridges-1000-yard-308-load.html
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/01/cartridges-1000-yard-308-case-capacity.html

semiautosniper
07-31-2011, 4:35 PM
I think that "TV show" he is referring to actually used a 50-Cal Barrett if I am not mistaken... I have never heard of a 7.62 reaching 1700 + yards accurately, not even .338 Lapua can reach that far... It was a 50-cal.

RugerNo1
07-31-2011, 4:52 PM
I think that "TV show" he is referring to actually used a 50-Cal Barrett if I am not mistaken... I have never heard of a 7.62 reaching 1700 + yards accurately, not even .338 Lapua can reach that far... It was a 50-cal.

There is plenty of things that can work in a bullets favor. Especially in the high mountains of Afganistan. 10,000 ft is really high and the thin air will benefit the bullets reaching its target. And yes, a .338 lapua can reach that far, but this thread is regarding shooting the .308 at long range so lets not let us digress.

Pthfndr
07-31-2011, 5:39 PM
No one is saying that the .308 can not be used at 1000 yards, but there are plenty of obstacles that the cartridge faces to reach such distance. Before trusting a TV show for information one should read up on real world ballistics.

Here is a couple links that talk about long range ballistics and reloading for .308 Win.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/10/cartridges-loading-308-for-palma.html
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/01/cartridges-1000-yard-308-load.html
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/01/cartridges-1000-yard-308-case-capacity.html

These are must read articles, by one of the most knowledgeable shooters out there, for anyone who is serious about getting into long range shooting.

I particularly like this line he has:

...there's never a shortage of advice for the new shooter at a match; then there's the internet with it's almost endless supply of advice, usually from anonymous forum posters whose experience and qualifications may well be limited to pecking at a keyboard.

RugerNo1
07-31-2011, 5:42 PM
...I particularly like this line he has:
...there's never a shortage of advice for the new shooter at a match; then there's the internet with it's almost endless supply of advice, usually from anonymous forum posters whose experience and qualifications may well be limited to pecking at a keyboard.

:rofl2: Sounds familiar!

fusionstar
08-01-2011, 12:51 PM
Don't know about velocity but most accurate 308's I've seen have been with 20" barrels. Could be a coincidence. They seem to reach 1000yd as well as the 26" barrel guys.

CK_32
08-01-2011, 12:55 PM
I love being able to post this video

15qj032UJ1I

I swear half his views are from me posting this so many times. :D

RugerNo1
08-01-2011, 1:17 PM
I love being able to post this video

[YOUTUBE]15qj032UJ1I[YOUTUBE]

I swear half his views are from me posting this so many times. :D

Video linked in OP, FYI.

No one is saying the .308 (or a rifle chambered in it) cannot reach 1000 yards, but there is plenty of variables and conditions that work for or against the bullet as it travels. The atmospheric conditions and capability of the shooter must be taken into account. This cannot be stated enough. The .308 fills its niche well, but proper attention must be given to the limits of the cartridge and shooter.

CK_32
08-01-2011, 1:22 PM
Oh I read the title and skimmed the OP real fast. Very misleading hahahah

mattt
08-01-2011, 4:54 PM
Ok so a 18" hits things at 1K .I would like to see it,s score at a 1k match out at sac valley.

DirtRacer151
08-01-2011, 5:24 PM
Ok so a 18" hits things at 1K .I would like to see it,s score at a 1k match out at sac valley.

^ this

Making hits is one thing. Making consistent hits is another.

Another flaw of that video is the fact that he's using a suppressor. He's adding a little extra MV with the use of a can.

BTW unless you've been in the pits before and seen 30cal bullets going sideways through the targets you have no business posting anything in this thread that contradicts the OPs point.

Pthfndr
08-01-2011, 5:44 PM
Oh I read the title and skimmed the OP real fast. Very misleading hahahah

Then you are an idiot. I posted the link in the third line of the original post.

Reading is fundamental. Read everything before you put fingers to key board so you are informed.

Nothing was misleading at all. Everyone who READ IT seemed to understand. Including the numerous people who posted who shoot long range (1000 yards) on a frequent basis.

Pthfndr
08-01-2011, 5:53 PM
Ok so a 18" hits things at 1K .I would like to see it,s score at a 1k match out at sac valley.

^ this

Making hits is one thing. Making consistent hits is another.

We have a coupe guys who have done it. Is it optimum? No. But that doesn't mean it can't be done on a regular basis. There's more than just barrel length that comes into play, as has been said.

There's also a big difference between shooting Xs or 10s on a High Power or F Class target and hitting a 1-1/2 - 2-1/2 moa sized piece of steel.

At a tactical rifle match most targets are steel and are hit or miss, so the precision needed to shoot a 1/2 moa F Class X ring isn't needed.

If one is shooting HP/Bench rest/F Class you have to be able to place 50% of your hits in the 1/2 moa X ring or you are out of the top 5 or more. So those guys use a longer barrel to because it's better suited for the purpose.

One picks the best tool for the job.

OutlawDon
08-01-2011, 6:03 PM
There's some great info (thanks Rob) and some really bad information within this thread. As stated, long range shooting with a 308 has many variables to take into account as mentioned already.

Let's stay on topic and keep the discussion progressive by not cluttering it with silly uneducated postings.

Bend
08-01-2011, 6:09 PM
Here are QuickLoad graphs for the 168g SMK and 175g SMK MV's vs barrel length. The max length is 28 inches (minus chamber length, OAL), max pressure is 60K psi. I used the powder forecasted for best MV. For shorter barrel lengths, extrapolate with a straight edge.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a351/Kirtmc/308Win168SMK.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a351/Kirtmc/308Win175SMK.jpg

mattt
08-01-2011, 6:14 PM
What does NCPPRC stand for?

fusionstar
08-01-2011, 6:18 PM
What does NCPPRC stand for?

I have no idea but im guessing Northern California Precision Pistol & Rifle Club?

DirtRacer151
08-01-2011, 6:19 PM
What does NCPPRC stand for?

http://www.ncpprc.com/index.html

thai562
08-01-2011, 6:34 PM
Great post. Love all the data.
Have anybody hear the story of a 1300y kill shot with an M24 in Iraq. How fast was that bullet traveling?

Pthfndr
08-01-2011, 6:39 PM
Great post. Love all the data.
Have anybody hear the story of a 1300y kill shot with an M24 in Iraq. How fast was that bullet traveling?

Fast enough :)

Hoop
08-01-2011, 7:33 PM
Everyone who READ IT seemed to understand.

lol

Also I don't know if I've mentioned yet or not but anyone here use 2000MR powder? I tried some loads in my 16, 18, and 20" 308's and got about 100fps over varget on average. It's also very clean burning and meters great.

Iggy
08-01-2011, 8:54 PM
Hoop,

I've never heard of that powder. How does it fair as far as consistency in different environments?

Pthfndr
08-01-2011, 9:06 PM
lol

Also I don't know if I've mentioned yet or not but anyone here use 2000MR powder? I tried some loads in my 16, 18, and 20" 308's and got about 100fps over varget on average. It's also very clean burning and meters great.

Just looking at the data on their website, their published velocity in .308 looks very good with a 175 HPBT. But in .260 and 6.5x55 it's slower with a 120 gr bullet than people are getting with H4350 and a 139/142gr bullet - and no one uses the light bullet for LR shooting these days.

It makes no mention of temp stability, and since it's a ball powder, probably isn't. Not a bad thing by itself, you just have to be aware that a load developed with it might not be safe year round if it's near/at max.

MASTERLAB
08-01-2011, 10:34 PM
I think that "TV show" he is referring to actually used a 50-Cal Barrett if I am not mistaken... I have never heard of a 7.62 reaching 1700 + yards accurately, not even .338 Lapua can reach that far... It was a 50-cal.

I saw the show. the sniper had a confirmed kill at just over 1300 yards, longest confirmed kill with the 7.62 round. definately not 1700+ yards but still impressive. Even the sniper said he was just trying to lay down suppresive fire from afar and got lucky. they went over some of the 50cal shots and those were at a little over 1.5 miles

as for LL with the gladius i must say I am very impressed but not all that surprized. ive been reading on the snipers hide for 3 years and am constantly amazed at the knowlege base and dedication to the art form of tactical precision marksmenship that those members have

To the op, thanks for posting, that was a really cool video to watch, and just shows you that with enough practice, almost anything is possible.

Army GI
08-19-2011, 2:14 PM
Sorry guys, I know this thread is a little old but I didn't want to start a whole new thread.

It seems that the trick is finding the right combination of propellant, projectile, atmospheric conditions, and barrel quality to keep the bullet supersonic at the distance you want to shoot?

All other factors being equal, what would be the range (supersonic threshold) of a .308 with a match quality 26" barrel?

RugerNo1
08-19-2011, 3:15 PM
Sorry guys, I know this thread is a little old but I didn't want to start a whole new thread.

It seems that the trick is finding the right combination of propellant, projectile, atmospheric conditions, and barrel quality to keep the bullet supersonic at the distance you want to shoot?

All other factors being equal, what would be the range (supersonic threshold) of a .308 with a match quality 26" barrel?

Load info needed > Which projectile? Muzzle velocity?

Generally, you want your bullet to be about Mach 1.2 (1.2 to be "safe" and have room for margin of error, I am assuming 1000 yards) to remain stable or have a well desinged bullet that transitions well...

Baga
08-19-2011, 3:34 PM
Great post, thanks...

send it_hit
08-19-2011, 4:52 PM
Great info! A good read. Thanks a lot.

rojocorsa
08-19-2011, 5:06 PM
tagged, *in case I ever need to find this thread as a reference.

2nd Shot
08-19-2011, 6:21 PM
http://www.hornady.com/in-the-news/latest-news/superformance-308-win-match

I've been eyeballing this stuff for awhile now. I have a 20" barreled SPS-Tactical (built to be my all purpose field/bench/LR rifle) that could probably use some help at 1000 in the velocity department.

I've read in more than a couple places, accounts by people who own the exact same rifle that were getting about 2700 FPS over the chrono, and pretty good accuracy (.5MOA), with a couple reports of abysmal accuracy. I'll buy a couple boxes and try it out, and if that doesn't work, I'll probably give Alliant 2000-MR and 175 matchkings a try.

russ69
08-19-2011, 10:18 PM
OK guys, I'm not an expert (but the NRA thinks I am) but if you are picking a cartridge for 1000 yard shooting you would not pick the .308 Winchester so lets be clear about that. It's a great cartridge but it has limitations that start to show just under 1000 yards. So if I was building a 1000 yard rifle, the 308 would not be in the hunt and no one is using the 308 for long range NRA competition. At least not anyone competitive.
If on the other hand you are stuck using a 308 for 1000 yard shooting, bullets are made for the task. They are lighter than you think, so velocity can be maintained for all shooting conditions. Here's what Sierra says:

Sierra was selected by the International Palma Committee to design and build a bullet that could be shot in the Palma competition from .308 Winchester rifles out to 1000 yards and remain supersonic. The Sierra Palma bullet is a 155 grain Hollow Point Boat Tail MatchKing bullet. The Palma bullet actually has a ballistic coefficient higher than our .30 caliber 168 gr MatchKing, and, due to its weight can be shot at higher velocities than the 168.

The combination of these two factors allows the Palma bullet to be ballistically superior to the 168 MatchKing bullets at 1000 yards. Palma match rifles usually use a 1x13" twist, however, the Palma can shoot very well with a wide variety of twist rates, including 1x10".

At any rate, this is a well developed concept and although work is still continuing for Palma competition (i.e. VLD designs), most of the data is already in. The in-field shooting anecdotes carry very little weight when compared to the large amount of scientifically significant target data collected to date.

Thanx, Russ

CRTguns
08-19-2011, 11:01 PM
Rob... there was that one time- Clint from over the hill spanked everyone with an 18" remmy.
Sure it was only one time, but is WAS ONE time.;)

winxp_man
08-19-2011, 11:08 PM
I was told that under 20" there is a greater loss in velocity because you are not burning all your powder. Is there any truth in this? Is 20" the minimum to maximize the powder in the volume of a 308 case?



I was recently out with my SPS Tac in 20" barrel and was able to get 2650 out of it with 175gr SMK and the XBR 8208 at 44 grains. That is plenty for 1K.

locosway
08-20-2011, 12:32 AM
Then you are an idiot. I posted the link in the third line of the original post.

Reading is fundamental. Read everything before you put fingers to key board so you are informed.

Nothing was misleading at all. Everyone who READ IT seemed to understand. Including the numerous people who posted who shoot long range (1000 yards) on a frequent basis.

I appreciate this thread, especially since I'm getting into long range shooting with a .308. However, I think one of main flaws that people with knowledge have is being on a high horse. There's no need to insult other posters on this forum simply because they didn't completely read your OP or perhaps missed something you said.

People don't need to be 1k yard champions or see bullets going sideways through targets from the pits to know how things work. What advice you give today could be refuted tomorrow by someone who claims to be more accomplished than you. So lets keep things in perspective and stick to facts.

Thanks for the info so far.

nimoZ
08-20-2011, 12:50 AM
Ok so a 18" hits things at 1K .I would like to see it,s score at a 1k match out at sac valley.

800 --- 900 --- 1000 --- Total
138 2 -- 142 5 -- 114 -- 394 - 7


Not adding to the debate, just answering the question :)

Novice shooter with 18" AR10, 1:10 twist, 175SMK, 44.0 Varget, DA 2400 @ Sac Valley.
Doing holdovers 2mil holdovers at 1k w wind.

And no, that was not the winning score - but also not the lowest score.

phish
08-20-2011, 2:46 AM
^ confirmed, I was scoring for the shooter next to her :)

Flouncer
08-20-2011, 6:54 AM
Point of clarification to a post above. No one pulling targets and scoring has seen a bullet go sideways into the target at 1,000 yards. They have seen the hole made by the bullet. :yawn:

bruceflinch
08-20-2011, 7:10 AM
Nice Post, Wish I had seen it earlier. Great info. But can You elaborate a bit on this statement?

Factory barrel will tend to be on the slower side because they have looser chambers and longer throats (thanks to the lawyers) which "eat up" some of the pressure needed to propel the bullet down the barrel.



Why did the lawyers get involved in this?

chicoredneck
08-20-2011, 11:30 AM
I completely disagree with you. To say it is a marginal cartridge for 1000 yards is completely false. The US military has had multiple confirmed kill shots with the standard .308 round out to a mile. There was even a "Tac TV" episode where they successfully completed a 1 mile hit on a human sized target at 1 mile. 1 mile = 1760 yard. Therefore at 100o yards is well within the range of the .308. I wouldnt say its the cartridge fault if you can't hit 1000 yards, chances are its the shooter

Ruger#1 already touched on this but I can't help myself.

There are many variables when shooting long range that must be taken into consideration. One of the most important of those variables is elevation. At very high elevations the 308 will fare better at longer range due to thin air (hence less drag), but all other cartridges will too. About confimed kills at a mile with a 308, I'm not so sure about that one, you might want to check your facts, but it is possible.

The 308 is deffinaetly capable of shooting to a 1000 yards and indeed people have been killed at that range with a 308. I was simply stating that it is marginal when compared to other more capable cartridges. The 308 has major physical limitations that make it more dificult for the shooter when shooting long range compared to many other cartrisges.

I enjoy shooting long range and my primary interest lies in hunting. A 308 would be a very poor choice for myself as the low velocity the projectile has at long range increases the chance of bullet failure. For military applications that same low velocity at longer range reduces the cartridges ability to penetrate barriers and body armor signifficantly. These are simply more reasons that the cartridge suffers when compared to others and they all stem from the low BC and inital velocity of the 308 cartridge.

Lastly, the army is switching some of it's rifles to a 300 win mag to deal with the increased ranges they are engaging targets in Afghanistan because the 308 was "marginal" at those ranges.

RugerNo1
08-20-2011, 1:15 PM
Nice Post, Wish I had seen it earlier. Great info. But can You elaborate a bit on this statement?

Factory barrel will tend to be on the slower side because they have looser chambers and longer throats (thanks to the lawyers) which "eat up" some of the pressure needed to propel the bullet down the barrel.



Why did the lawyers get involved in this?

I am merely speculating, but I am sure it has something to do with unsafe handloaders who do not pay attention to what they are doing and blame it on the company. The throats are long so it is hard to jam the bullets into the lands of the rifling; therefore, raising pressures (VLD bullets usually shoot best there, just for example as to why one would do that). Secondly, the firing pin hole in the boltface is actually larger than needed which allows primer cratering to happen sooner which would make a handloader back off on their loads from those pressures.

In this overly sensitive world that we live in where nothing can be one's own fault and there are lawyers to back them up there will always be ways that people will try to cover their own ***. The longer throats and larger firing pin holes are ways that Remington has employed to cover their own and prevent another frivilous lawsuit.

Pthfndr
08-20-2011, 5:16 PM
There's no need to insult other posters on this forum simply because they didn't completely read your OP or perhaps missed something you said.

The person I replied to professes himself to be an expert. He even posts videos on Youtube and tells people to go watch them. He's posted that video numerous times and just couldn't pass up the chance to post it again without actually reading what had been posted by me.

People don't need to be 1k yard champions or see bullets going sideways through targets from the pits to know how things work. What advice you give today could be refuted tomorrow by someone who claims to be more accomplished than you. So lets keep things in perspective and stick to facts.

Thanks for the info so far.

I'm not a 1000 yard champion, though I shoot with several and pay attention and listen to what they say.

I do not consider myself an expert, though a lot of people who shoot with me might say differently. Of all the people who are members of this forum, the only ones who have proven their expertise in long range competition have agreed with me.

Facts are facts, and that's all I have posted in this thread.

Ahhnother8
08-20-2011, 7:42 PM
Facts are facts, and that's all I have posted in this thread.

The picture in your avatar looks like the 1000 yard line at Sac Valley. Have you actually fired from there before? :p

Pthfndr
08-20-2011, 9:00 PM
The picture in your avatar looks like the 1000 yard line at Sac Valley. Have you actually fired from there before? :p

I think I have ;)

DirtRacer151
08-20-2011, 10:09 PM
The picture in your avatar looks like the 1000 yard line at Sac Valley. Have you actually fired from there before? :p

Yeah but he's holding a wood stocked rifle in that pic... no way that thing will reach 1k :D

winxp_man
08-20-2011, 11:19 PM
I am merely speculating, but I am sure it has something to do with unsafe handloaders who do not pay attention to what they are doing and blame it on the company. The throats are long so it is hard to jam the bullets into the lands of the rifling; therefore, raising pressures (VLD bullets usually shoot best there, just for example as to why one would do that). Secondly, the firing pin hole in the boltface is actually larger than needed which allows primer cratering to happen sooner which would make a handloader back off on their loads from those pressures.

In this overly sensitive world that we live in where nothing can be one's own fault and there are lawyers to back them up there will always be ways that people will try to cover their own ***. The longer throats and larger firing pin holes are ways that Remington has employed to cover their own and prevent another frivilous lawsuit.


I learned about 3-4 years ago that its not something to look at. I look at the primer edges versus the pin crater. I notice almost all factory ammo that I shoot through my stock remington barrel seems to make the primers really flat. My reloads are fine and work great.

winxp_man
08-20-2011, 11:20 PM
Yeah but he's holding a wood stocked rifle in that pic... no way that thing will reach 1k :D


Maybe with a catapult it will :eek: :D