Gun club under fire..

[bg]

Winchester Canyon Gun Club is facing a possible shutdown. >
http://www.lompocrecord.com/articles/2007/01/08/news/centralcoast/news05.txt

For decades, loud claps of gunfire have often punctuated the natural quiet of rugged chaparral and sandstone outcroppings along a section of West Camino Cielo, atop the Santa Ynez Mountains.

About four miles west of Highway 154, outdoor shooting ranges for pistols, rifles and shotguns have been operated since 1969 by the nonprofit Winchester Canyon Gun Club, as recreation for its 700 members and the general public. Numerous local law-enforcement agencies also conduct firearms training at those ranges strewn with the shattered remnants of pastel-orange clay targets and spent lead bullets and shot.
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On nearby land are prehistoric paintings and sandstone formations long held sacred by the Chumash, an area deemed eligible for inclusion in the National Register of Historic Places.

Directly south of the gun club site is the Lizard's Mouth area, popular with hikers and others drawn by its unusual geology and sweeping views of the ocean to the south and wilderness areas north of Lake Cachuma.

Such competing interests come into play as U.S. Forest Service officials are deciding whether to renew the 76-acre gun club's operating permit for another 20 years, and under what terms. The federal agency has permit authority because the shooting ranges are on Los Padres National Forest land.

Public comments are being accepted through Monday on a 47-page environmental assessment that evaluates several alternatives, from closing down the club to allowing it to continue much as it does now. The document is available online at www.fs.fed.us/r5/lospadres/ (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/lospadres/)

[rkt88edmo]

Aargh, hope they get their renewal.

[anotherone]

This right here is yet another reason I'm glad I don't live anywhere near the Bay Area or Los Angeles. LA and Bay Area residents seem to think they've elevated to some level where they no longer need gun clubs or hunting. Unfortunately though they also feel they need 5,000 square foot stucco castles where I live and are willing to commute 4+ hours to add urban sprawl to my hometown. During the weekend they're more than happy to complain that people are hunting ducks on their favorite jogging spots in the local Wilderness Refuges. They've also set up a political action committe to try and outlaw hunting on one of those refuges.

[triggerhappy]

I hope I'm in time to make a squeal on this. Los Padres is a nice, nearly empty place (near me, anyway) and it'd be a damned shame to close on account of a bunch of Gaia-worshipping geeks.

[triggerhappy]

Oh, THAT figures, the server is down?? Well, it IS a government site, so it should be expected, I guess. I'll try again later

[Fjold]

This right here is yet another reason I'm glad I don't live anywhere near the Bay Area or Los Angeles. LA and Bay Area residents seem to think they've elevated to some level where they no longer need gun clubs or hunting. Unfortunately though they also feel they need 5,000 square foot stucco castles where I live and are willing to commute 4+ hours to add urban sprawl to my hometown. During the weekend they're more than happy to complain that people are hunting ducks on their favorite jogging spots in the local Wilderness Refuges. They've also set up a political action committe to try and outlaw hunting on one of those refuges.


The range is in Santa Barbara county north of Goleta not in LA or the Bay area.

[CSACANNONEER]

This right here is yet another reason I'm glad I don't live anywhere near the Bay Area or Los Angeles. LA and Bay Area residents seem to think they've elevated to some level where they no longer need gun clubs or hunting. Unfortunately though they also feel they need 5,000 square foot stucco castles where I live and are willing to commute 4+ hours to add urban sprawl to my hometown. During the weekend they're more than happy to complain that people are hunting ducks on their favorite jogging spots in the local Wilderness Refuges. They've also set up a political action committe to try and outlaw hunting on one of those refuges.


It is many miles from the nearest city and nowhere near LA or SF.

[unsped]

was just there yesterday, its a nice range thats out of the way.

they already closed down the ventura range due to noise complaints.

our only options are to drive to ojai, an indoor range in oxnard, and one in santa maria ... basically if you live in santa barbara you would have to drive an hour minimum to shoot anywhere.

its also a very well run facility that is very safe. the range masters are knowledgeable, helpful and very safety minded.

[bwiese]

The bay area has about a dozen outdoor ranges, in addition to quite a few indoor ranges (I can think off-hand of about 8 indoor ranges). The above statement is simply not true. If you want to have your prejudices, feel free to do so, but please don't pass them off as facts.

Yes, and we should reduce the hunting focus too. RKBA is completely separate from hunting.

There is no right to hunt, but there is a right to bear arms.

Otherwise we play into the hands of those politicians who "...support the right of sportsmen to hunt" as a code-phrase meaning further RKBA restrictions.

[NRAhighpowershooter]

Chabot Range comes under fire from the liberal a**kissers across the golf course from the range every few months or so.. we have one wack job, in particular, that makes it his personal war be complaining every week about the noise. We have done extensive noise testing the last few years and we are less noisy then the 737's that fly overhead....

[Ratters]

Man, that sucks. I've shot there a few times and hiked Lizards Mouth dozens of times. The range has no impact on any of the stuff. The range never interferred with my enjoyment of the hills or that of my friends. And if any damage was to be done to the native american artifacts (which is preposterous) it would have already been done in the last almost 40 years. They even have (had?) a 600 yard range right to the south of Lizards Mouth as well. If they shut down the range that woud be utter bull poopy.

[unsped]

more damage is done by vandalism, there is a reason that painted cave has a jail cell style door over it, and even the shotgun clay throwers get padlocked every day.

[Jarhead4]

Chabot Range comes under fire from the liberal a**kissers across the golf course from the range every few months or so.. we have one wack job, in particular, that makes it his personal war be complaining every week about the noise. We have done extensive noise testing the last few years and we are less noisy then the 737's that fly overhead....

Speaking of airports, it seems that airports are put up away from large population areas so they don’t cause a noise problem, and have a safety net around them. Then you get these idiots that move in next door and start complaining about the airplanes flying over them. If you didn’t like the airplane flying over, then why did you move there!!

I think the same thing goes for outdoor ranges. If you don’t like the noise, then why did you go there in the first place?

What I like is that the 737 make more noise than the rifles. But they will tolerate the 737's though. Idiots!!

[luvtolean]

Nope, not idiots. Selfish.

They like to travel by plane, but don't like shooting firearms.

[Californio]

Winchester is a great facility, well run and used by many LE agencys. Located at the very end of a ridgeline mountain road. The fire danger in the area is great and only a few brave souls live in the area, along with an antenna farm because of the fire danger. LE swat teams use the 200 yard range during the week, where would they go, drive 2 hours to Ojai. I sure hope that the lease is renewed.

[Hopi]

Would be a shame, but there is A LOT of money in this area, with some very wealthy shooters using the range. Money talks, I'm sure that there might be some influence to be found somewhere out here.......:)

[jjperl]

was just there yesterday, its a nice range thats out of the way.

they already closed down the ventura range due to noise complaints.

our only options are to drive to ojai, an indoor range in oxnard, and one in santa maria ... basically if you live in santa barbara you would have to drive an hour minimum to shoot anywhere.

its also a very well run facility that is very safe. the range masters are knowledgeable, helpful and very safety minded.

That is incorrect. There are two shooting ranges here in Santa Barbara/Goleta. There is the licensed Winchester Gun Club on west Camino Cielo and then there is "Lead Hill" on East Camino Ciello, which is where I shoot. The drive to "Lead Hill" takes just as long as it takes to get to Winchester Gun Club. The only thing I like about Winchester gun club is that it's organized. :)

[Hopi]

That is incorrect. There are two shooting ranges here in Santa Barbara/Goleta. There is the licensed Winchester Gun Club on west Camino Cielo and then there is "Lead Hill" on East Camino Ciello, which is where I shoot. The drive to "Lead Hill" takes just as long as it takes to get to Winchester Gun Club. The only thing I like about Winchester gun club is that it's organized. :)

"lead Hill" eh? I've never heard that name, we've always called it the "glass factory".
Great place to plink and rapid-fire, but the winchester has real target stands, measured distances, benches, shade/cover, more of a community feel, and no idiots with a van full of 18 kids/relatives shooting questionably legal firearms into the ground and across the range.

Edited to add:
My official opinion is this: "The Glass Factory is 100% safe, sane, compliant, courteous, and well-kept. Please do not close anymore of our ranges."

[Michael303]

ECC AKA "The Glass Factory" is the place you go to put old appliances out to pasture, not sight in firearms. Still, I do love going there. The trouble is it’s getting a reputation for danger. In the last six months, I’ve seen two news (if you can all the Newspress news) stories about range idiocy there. One was some Johnny Six-gun cowboy type shooting at a cast iron sink that was 10 feet away. Surprise! One bounced back and got him. The other was some joker who pulled the trigger in his car and tried to blame highwaymen when the PD came.

For all that, you’ll find me there two or three times a month. For all its trouble, I actually prefer that place to Winchester. Still, I fully support keeing Winchester open, and will fight for it's right to exist. We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.

[Hopi]

ECC AKA "The Glass Factory" is the place you go to put old appliances out to pasture, not sight in firearms. Still, I do love going there. The trouble is it’s getting a reputation for danger. In the last six months, I’ve seen two news (if you can all the Newspress news) stories about range idiocy there. One was some Johnny Six-gun cowboy type shooting at a cast iron sink that was 10 feet away. Surprise! One bounced back and got him. The other was some joker who pulled the trigger in his car and tried to blame highwaymen when the PD came.

Still, you’ll find me there two or three times a month. For all its trouble, I actually prefer that place to Winchester. Still, I fully support keeing Winchester open, and will fight for it's right to exist.

Why haven't we had a meet and shoot yet? We could call ourselves the "North American Riviera Calgunners" group!

[unsped]

i live in town also, how about we have a calguns glass factory meetup lol, i have a .22lr upper i need to test. maybe i can find an old mini fridge jk i would love to nail some milk jugs full of water with some 12gauge slugs though ...

[Michael303]

Why haven't we had a meet and shoot yet? We could call ourselves the "North American Riviera Calgunners" group!

The weird thing is we may have. You never know. I've met a lot of great people up there. I’d venture to say that range has the greatest diversity in terms of shooters then any place on the central coast.

I’ll be heading up this weekend (time is TBD). My girlfriend wants to get some practice in with her P22 and I’m working through my box of .303. Maybe we’ll bump into each other? I'll be the guy wearing the Webley holster. (haha)

[jjperl]

The weird thing is we may have. You never know. I've met a lot of great people up there. I’d venture to say that range has the greatest diversity in terms of shooters then any place on the central coast.

I’ll be heading up this weekend (time is TBD). My girlfriend wants to get some practice in with her P22 and I’m working through my box of .303. Maybe we’ll bump into each other? I'll be the guy wearing the Webley holster. (haha)

Sounds fun. I might be up there this weekend with my .45 and maybe my Turkish mauser.

It would be fun to get a bunch of Calgunners up there sometime.:D

[Ratters]

Man, I figured that lead hill would have been shut down by now. I haven't been there in over ten years but I was up there all the time when I lived down that way. It was kind of sketchy sometimes though. I remember being down range setting up targets when I hear gun shots. I hit the deck hard and my friend starts yelling at some dad with his kid who thought shooting was OK because he was aiming about twenty yards to my right. :mad: You'd also get the trucks or van loads of mexicans who would pull up, unload their weapons in the air :confused: as fast as they could pull the trigger and then drive off. I always kept a pistol on my hip up there just in case. That said, I always enjoyed going up there.

Well, except for the night we did a little off roading on the way back and ended up getting stuck for three hours with mud up to the axels. But that's another story. ;)

[jjperl]

Man, I figured that lead hill would have been shut down by now. I haven't been there in over ten years but I was up there all the time when I lived down that way. It was kind of sketchy sometimes though. I remember being down range setting up targets when I hear gun shots. I hit the deck hard and my friend starts yelling at some dad with his kid who thought shooting was OK because he was aiming about twenty yards to my right. :mad: You'd also get the trucks or van loads of mexicans who would pull up, unload their weapons in the air :confused: as fast as they could pull the trigger and then drive off. I always kept a pistol on my hip up there just in case. That said, I always enjoyed going up there.

Well, except for the night we did a little off roading on the way back and ended up getting stuck for three hours with mud up to the axels. But that's another story. ;)

LOL. It's good, well, maybe not so good to know there's someone else out there thats basically had the same experiences as me there. ahh heck, Good times!:D

[Incitatus]

They shut down San Gabriel Valley Gun Club, East of LA a few months ago.
Residents of a recently developed high income gated community area complained of the noise. Didn't matter they aknowledged in writing they knew the range was nearby when they purchased their homes a few years ago. Didn't matter the range was there for decades and they were the newcomers...with a little help from a Democrat mayor and an all Democrat city council, the range was closed so their properties could increase in value.

[Michael303]

Man, I figured that lead hill would have been shut down by now.

As far as I know, there is one (and only) reason ECC is still open. It’s been there for quite some time, and it’s always been a trash heap. The good news is that it’s isolated in that canyon. When they shut the road in early 2001 due to flood damage, people found other places to turn into impromptu gun ranges. I, for example, have a friend who has some land about 5 minutes outside of Goleta to shoot. You could also access ECC from the Gibraltar side.

Basically, it comes down to the fact that ECC is not a range by a purest definition, but it is a place where people go to shoot. If not there, then some other place along ECC or WCC will be christened as a new shooting site. Yes, it’s a trash dump, but it’s our trash dump. At least they know where it is, and where it stays.


Well, except for the night we did a little off roading on the way back and ended up getting stuck for three hours with mud up to the axels. But that's another story. ;)

Please tell me you weren’t group of guys in the 2WD who wanted us to pull you out with an extension cord? :rolleyes:

[Jarhead4]

They shut down San Gabriel Valley Gun Club, East of LA a few months ago.
Residents of a recently developed high income gated community area complained of the noise. Didn't matter they aknowledged in writing they knew the range was nearby when they purchased their homes a few years ago. Didn't matter the range was there for decades and they were the newcomers...with a little help from a Democrat mayor and an all Democrat city council, the range was closed so their properties could increase in value.

Idiots!!!:mad:

[Incitatus]

Idiots!!!:mad:

No, Democrats! They did it for the children ;)

[DougH9]

As someone who loves shooting much more that just owning guns, This proposed closure scares me.

As far as the "glass factory", we must find a way to police that place or they will close it also. I have no good answear...and I have thought about it a bit. Too many people are just plain irresponsible, and use the place as a dump.

My biggest fear: The closure the whole Nat. Forest to recreational shooting. I do the bulk of my shooting out in the forest, away from anyone. I do this because I like to shoot my own "matches", and I shoot long range. These two criteria cannot be met by either WCGC, or the "glass factory".

How is this bleak outlook: WCGC is closed, the "glass factory" is closed, and no recreational shooting is alowed in the Nat. Forest (along with motorcycle riding). This would turn Paradise into a tree-hugging hell hole.

[Ford8N]

The LP has shut down a bunch of shooting areas. Mostly for trash, fire hazards and resource damage(shooting trees). I know of a couple that were shut down by the CHP(to many guns near the hwy). Treasure you "blaster" ranges because they could shut it down.

[NextTimeAround]

I hope they'll stay open, there's definitely a lack of good ranges in CA.

[Californio]

Ranges under fire: Tidy Winchester Gun Club, trashy Arroyo Burro shooting range both face scrutiny

ROB KUZNIA, NEWS-PRESS STAFF WRITER
January 16, 2007 7:24 AM
The crack of gunfire has long echoed through the canyons of the Santa Ynez Mountains, where, situated on either side of Highway 154, about 15 miles apart, there are two shooting ranges.

One of them is controversial, but it is the other range whose days could be numbered.

The controversial spot, called the Winchester Canyon Gun Club, on West Camino Cielo, is facing opposition in its quest for a new 20-year permit from the U.S. Forest Service. Some activists lament its proximity to ancient rock drawings believed to be created by descendants of the Santa Ynez Band of Chumash Indians. But the club -- about four miles west of Highway 154 -- is working closely with the tribe as well as the U.S. Forest Service, and a permit renewal seems likely.

Meanwhile, in the cross hairs of the Forest Service is an unsupervised target-shooting area on winding East Camino Cielo. Located about 10 miles east of Highway 154, the so-called Arroyo Burro shooting area is a visual blight, and has recently proven dangerous.

There, people can shoot whatever they want without paying a fee. Often, the range is strewn with bullet-riddled TVs, computers, refrigerators, couches and even cars.

"The area is basically used as a dump," said Jeff Bensen, acting assistant forest recreation officer with the Los Padres National Forest. "For some reason, the public feels like they can go up there, trash the place and leave."

It's also the site of two recent nonfatal shooting incidents, both in November.

In the next couple of months, the Forest Service will embark on a campaign asking the public -- and businesses that sell guns to the public -- to help clean the site. If, after about a year, the results are lackluster, the Forest Service likely will close the gates, Mr. Bensen said. This would mean any resident in the area who purchases a gun would almost certainly have to pay money to shoot it at the Winchester Canyon Gun Club.

It isn't an empty threat. Several years ago, a similar fate befell an open range near Santa Maria, just off Highway 166, following an unanswered appeal to the public to keep it clean.

It used to be that people could target-shoot virtually anywhere in the Los Padres National Forest. But about 20 years ago, the Forest Service, mindful of safety concerns and tired of picking up bullet-riddled trash at every other pull-over on East and West Camino Cielo roads, restricted free-range shooting to certain designated areas, such as at Arroyo Burro, which is named after a well-known nearby trail.

The Winchester Canyon Gun Club and the Arroyo Burro shooting range are as different as night and day.

The club sells family memberships for $125 a year, and charges $10 a day for nonmembers. It requires ear plugs and glasses, and almost resembles a golf-course driving range with its designated booths neatly aligned with the targets hundreds of yards away. Here, people shoot clay pigeons and paper targets, exclusively.

By comparison, the Arroyo Burro range is defaced by graffiti, and littered with empty beer bottles and a piles of shotgun shells that are ankle-deep in some areas. People shoot at all manner of targets: propane grills, stolen stop signs, washing machines and things that explode, such as pumpkins and unopened water bottles. To walk amid the debris is to walk on a field of broken glass, so numerous are the shattered beer bottles. Shooters prop their rifles on one of a long line of waist-high boulders, at least one of which bears the telltale pock marks of having been strafed with gunfire.

For a long time, the range's safety record was virtually spotless. Until November, that is.

On Nov. 7, Keith Scott, 23, was airlifted out of the Los Padres National Forest to Santa Barbara Cottage Hospital after a bullet from his revolver sent a projectile bouncing off a cast iron sink and into his chest.

On Nov. 27, Alfredo Solid, also 23, was treated for a gunshot wound to the hand. At first, he said someone had shot him. But he later confessed to making up the story, saying he was initially too embarrassed to admit that he had accidentally shot himself in the hand.

Still, even some members of the Winchester Canyon Gun Club defend the Arroyo Burro range.

"It's kind of been good for there to be an open area," said Chris Polos of Santa Barbara, while inserting earplugs before firing a .22-caliber rifle at a target. "Your average shooter just wants to go out and 'ploink' something, like cans. But people who are a little more into it want to improve their game (at the established club)."

The Arroyo Burro range isn't universally accepted, though. When voicing his distaste for it, 69-year-old Jim Rogers of Santa Barbara -- also a Winchester member -- didn't mince words.

"It's disgusting," he said, before firing a hail of bullets from his .22-caliber pistol into a target.

"It should be bulldozed, and people shouldn't be allowed in there. This is how you do it. You play by the rules, and it's safe."

For its part, the gun club has had a relationship with the Chumash that seems to vacillate between tolerant and uneasy.

In the mid-1990s, the Forest Service, which owns the land, shut down one of the gun club's many ranges. At this one, a 600-yard range, bullets whizzed over a stretch of land containing the Chumash rock drawings, as well as "wind caves."

This fall, in its initial proposal to the Forest Service for a 20-year permit, the Winchester Canyon Gun Club asked to reopen the range for one day a month.

The request drew opposition from the Chumash, and efforts to draft another option got under way.

The tribe, working with the gun club and the Forest Service, helped craft an alternative option that includes permanently shutting down the 600-yard range. The proposed compromise also imposes limits on shooting during Native American holidays, including solstice and equinox.

"As long as these stipulations are respected, the tribe is satisfied with the Gun Club's permit renewal," Chumash Casino Resort representative Frances Snyder said in a written statement.

An executive decision will be made in the next month or so by Gloria Brown, the forest supervisor of the Los Padres National Forest. In addition to the gun club's original proposal and the newly crafted alternative -- which the gun club now endorses -- a third option exists: outright denial. But it appears the newly crafted option is the most likely: In a report called the proposed Environmental Assessment, the Forest Service dubbed it the "preferred alternative."

But despite the tribe's apparent contentment, not all are satisfied.

Monique Sonoquie, a Santa Barbara activist who described herself as part Chumash, Apache and Yaqui, would like the gun club to move.

"This is our church," she said. "You can't put a gun club 600 yards away from a synagogue and then say we're only going to shoot after 4 (o'clock) on Sundays."

Ms. Sonoquie has spearheaded a drive urging people to submit written comments to protest the proposed permit. The deadline for doing so passed last week. In all, about 110 people sent comments. Many, if not most, centered on the rock drawings and wind caves, Mr. Bensen said.

e-mail: rkuznia@newspress.com

STEVE MALONE?/?NEWS-PRESS PHOTOS

[Michael303]

Hmm, not surprising to see this article come from Wendy McCaw and her Santa Barbara News Suppress. For those not in the know, she bought the SBNP a few years back and quickly turned it from a news source into her own soapbox. Shortly after, quite a few of the editors quit en masse. When they voiced their discontent, she sued. When the staff thought about unionizing… well let’s just say she did some things that ended in a complaint to the NLRB. Anybody who publicly denounces her policies (even private citizens) gets sued for slander and libel.

Back to the 2nd amendment stuff….

I don’t have a truck, so I can’t haul, but I would donate whatever time and money can to clean that place up and preserve it as a non-regulated shooting range. Anybody else out there share this sentiment?

[Hopi]

I don’t have a truck, so I can’t haul, but I would donate whatever time and money can to clean that place up and preserve it as a non-regulated shooting range. Anybody else out there share this sentiment?

Yes, i am in favor of a Calguns meet/shoot/clean! I was up at the glass factory on Sunday and took home 17 lbs of brass:) .....but i'm willing to pick up trash as well;) !