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Write Winger
07-25-2011, 12:15 AM
In reference to the definition of a "Deteachable Magazine":

A detachable magazine is any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool.

Why was that last sentence included? What was it in reference to? Why point that out as an exception or as a viable option as a tool when the point of the law was to make things more difficult?

Dreaded Claymore
07-25-2011, 12:21 AM
I have heard that the last sentence was referring to the SKS and clones of it. But why they wanted to exempt the SKS, I have no idea.

Librarian
07-25-2011, 12:23 AM
In reference to the definition of a "Deteachable Magazine":

A detachable magazine is any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool.

Why was that last sentence included? What was it in reference to? Why point that out as an exception or as a viable option as a tool when the point of the law was to make things more difficult?

It was included to specifically allow a bullet to be used as the tool to operate the magazine release; otherwise someone might conclude that only things marketed as 'tools' might qualify e.g screwdrivers, punches.

The point of the regulation you quote was NOT to make things more difficult, though the point of the legislation was.

Write Winger
07-25-2011, 12:40 AM
I could use punch to do the same thing, or a paperclip. Why they'd specifically include that though just made me think "hey, why'd they do that?"

I take it ppl have torn the idea apart already of the final cartridge in the mag being spent as the trigger to release the mag (and being unable to remove the msg until then) not viable as using the cartridge as the tool?

jl123
07-25-2011, 1:24 AM
I have heard that the last sentence was referring to the SKS and clones of it. But why they wanted to exempt the SKS, I have no idea.

This is what I've heard too.

bwiese
07-25-2011, 2:14 AM
Librarian and DreadedClaymore have it.

The example tool was in fact a clarification that it could be any useful item at hand - and not necessarily a product from Snap-On or Craftsman formally and commonly identified as a tool.

And yes, I seem to recall the SKS issue coming up here. This also further clarified that a regular unmodified SKS does NOT have a detachable magazine.

I would bet that this commentary was inserted, indirectly, by various statements/comments entered into the regulatory comment submission period in 2000 when SB23 'characteristic features' were being defined. I'd not be surprised that this was actually the end result of NRA legal team analysis & pushback....

EOD Guy
07-25-2011, 8:08 AM
It is also quite common for firearms to be designed so that a cartridge tip can be used as a tool for field stripping. The regulation allows for use of this "tool."

Wherryj
07-25-2011, 9:08 AM
Here's the Wiki page with the complete definition of a tool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_DeLeon

Write Winger
07-25-2011, 1:52 PM
^^^lol, I was waiting for something like that.

So how did the unmodified SKS not have a detachable mag? I'm unfamiliar with SKSs. How were mags released?

bwiese
07-25-2011, 1:56 PM
^^^lol, I was waiting for something like that.

So how did the unmodified SKS not have a detachable mag? I'm unfamiliar with SKSs. How were mags released?

It has a fixed magazine by design.

There is a tilt-down mag cover for emptying rounds thru bottom that covers the actual internal magazine.

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/ig/Change-Magazine-on-SKS/SKS-Magazine-Change-6.htm

SKS rifles are typically top-loaded into opened action via use of stripper clips. They work well that way.

The Director
07-25-2011, 3:27 PM
Here's the Wiki page with the complete definition of a tool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_DeLeon

Zactly, bro. :D:D:D:D:D

Hoologan
07-25-2011, 7:21 PM
It is also quite common for firearms to be designed so that a cartridge tip can be used as a tool for field stripping. The regulation allows for use of this "tool."

Yes. The SKS is a perfect example of this. The manual actually illustrates the cartridge tip being used to release the trigger group.

DisgruntledReaper
07-25-2011, 8:25 PM
I thought we were talking about the idiots we all seem to deal with every day....and what defines them....hahahahah

Sorry, in a 'mood' back to topic!

looks like it is covered..

Dreaded Claymore
07-25-2011, 11:04 PM
As others and I said earlier, this rule was included to exempt the SKS with its fixed magazine, and it made the Bullet Button possible. It is for this reason that the SKS is sometimes called "the assault rifle that saved California."

wildhawker
07-25-2011, 11:06 PM
I thought we were talking about the idiots we all seem to deal with every day...

I thought the same thing.

BigDogatPlay
07-25-2011, 11:15 PM
I thought we were talking about the idiots we all seem to deal with every day....and what defines them....hahahahah

+1... I was going to IBTL. But the history around this stuff, like history in general, fascinates me.

ivsamhell
07-25-2011, 11:25 PM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf

comments a1.12 and a1.14

hoffmang
07-25-2011, 11:28 PM
Birdt and Gorski... Wait what?

-Gene

FatalKitty
07-26-2011, 9:49 AM
It is also quite common for firearms to be designed so that a cartridge tip can be used as a tool for field stripping. The regulation allows for use of this "tool."

this!


the AR-15 can be completely field stripped using nothing but a cartridge.