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squee116
07-24-2011, 1:06 PM
Let's say I have a gun up on calguns board.

It is listed as WTT, and I never list a price with the gun. Someone with zero posts, after being a member for two years, contacts me because he wants the gun. This is in private message. He's really pushing for it. But he wants to buy it. So we communicate over private messages a while.

Both of us are new to the concept of shipping a firearm, and I have no idea how money orders work. So we agree to use paypal, over private messages.

After I receive payment, about one or two days later, Paypal limits my account, and cites my account on calguns.net, calguns.net as the service which the transaction took place, and the transaction number of the payment.

Would this be a form of entrapment?
Is it safe to assume the other person had been working for paypal as a mole?

ElvenSoul
07-24-2011, 1:14 PM
I don't understand why you did not READ PayPals Terms? A few seconds on Google and you would have known not to use PayPal for Gun Sales. Better Luck Next Time...do a little research next time...ask experienced sellers what they use.

squee116
07-24-2011, 1:25 PM
That's not really answering the question. I was not listing the firearm for sale, and listed a bunch of things to trade for. If the buyer was working for paypal to see if I would bite, would it be entrapment?

Also, I've never sold a gun before. Ignorance of the rules is not an exemption for the rules, but it is what it is.

Decoligny
07-24-2011, 1:30 PM
That's not really answering the question. I was not listing the firearm for sale, and listed a bunch of things to trade for. If the buyer was working for paypal to see if I would bite, would it be entrapment?

Also, I've never sold a gun before. Ignorance of the rules is not an exemption for the rules, but it is what it is.

Entrapment only applies to LEOs trying to get you to commit a crime that you wouldn't otherwise have committed.

A private citizen/company cannot "entrap" anyone.

squee116
07-24-2011, 1:38 PM
Thank you decoligny, answers my question perfectly.

blazeaglory
07-24-2011, 1:44 PM
Simple solution

DONT USE PAYPAL

rjh4758
07-24-2011, 1:51 PM
I have used Paypal for firearm related stuff and firearms but it has always been done as a gift so that it would not get flagged.

Barkoff
07-24-2011, 2:32 PM
I'm confused, you can use paypal to send anyone who has a paypal account money without associating it with a firearm sale. When you sent the payment how did paypal know it was for a firearm transaction since it was not payment on an auction?

Wernher von Browning
07-24-2011, 3:34 PM
So we agree to use paypal, over private messages.


Whose idea was it to use Paypal?

You, or "oddballweaponsfreak"?

squee116
07-24-2011, 8:59 PM
I'm confused, you can use paypal to send anyone who has a paypal account money without associating it with a firearm sale. When you sent the payment how did paypal know it was for a firearm transaction since it was not payment on an auction?

It was sent as a gift. No idea how they knew.

squee116
07-24-2011, 9:02 PM
Whose idea was it to use Paypal?

You, or "oddballweaponsfreak"?

I told him the only ways I could think of for payment were USPS money orders or paypal. He requested my Paypal info.

Riodog
07-24-2011, 9:50 PM
Forget the PP bs. Some clown with his rep and time in forums says "I'll take it", with no specified price, etc, and pushing pm's would set off my alarm bells real quick. Did he suggest a face to face exchange? (I did not say transfer).
I wouldn't even consider said individual.
Rio

bjl333
07-24-2011, 10:33 PM
It was sent as a gift. No idea how they knew.

The buyer could've put something about Calguns or barrels in the instruction or info part of PP. PP doesn't allow gun parts to be sold thru them as well. They uses word filters to catch key words like "gun" for example. This is the same as Calguns catching **** or *** :D

bwiese
07-25-2011, 2:22 AM
PayPal has no legal authority to enforce anything outside not doing business with you in the future and/or voiding a transaction.

So I have no idea where you get the ability to use the term 'entrapment', since there appears to be no LEO connection.

squee116
07-25-2011, 3:34 AM
PayPal has no legal authority to enforce anything outside not doing business with you in the future and/or voiding a transaction.

So I have no idea where you get the ability to use the term 'entrapment', since there appears to be no LEO connection.

I was unaware of the official connotation of entrapment and apologize for its misuse. I was more talking about the general act of setting up a fake buyer, asking a random person to perform a service that he neither advertised nor advocated, and then punishing the seller. For instance, if they claim I broke a contract with them in essence by breaching their User's Agreement, can they just use any information they want? Does the information need to be vetted? What if there were fines built into the agreement? Would the alleged offender have to pay them without any form of recourse? That sort of thing could happen in a general sense. Does any company have the right to claim a contract was broken without upholding some form of system of rules for information gathering? I was asking more of a broad question than specifically my circumstance, and realize the mistake in using the word entrapment. Now I know it's specifically for criminal(law enforcement) cases, and apologize for its misuse again.

It just seems odd that companies could use a form of information gathering that wouldn't be available to authorities...

Also, I'm not claiming this happened to me. It's highly possible the other person put information regarding the nature of the transaction innocently as previously stated by a poster. I'm just curious. It was a little curious that they knew my user ID and the forum(here) that it was taking place on.

And for the earlier statement about this guy being shady, we only discussed meeting at FFLs, and I required he send me the FFL he wanted it shipped to, called them independently, asked for their first 3 and last 5 numbers and checked their license online. The firearms was to be shipped by FedEx through proper channels and means directly to the FFL. Also, I agree. His stats made me a bit suspicious, all things considered, but it isn't right to use my "spidey" sense alone to discriminate against a calguns member, and if the sale was conducted properly, it would be near impossible for him to have obtained the weapon illegally. Wouldn't it? o_0

a1c
07-25-2011, 7:19 AM
Did you publish your email address in your ad? If you did, that's how PayPal might have flagged your transaction - by simply associating the email address you use with your PayPal account to your username on Calguns forums.

bill_k_lopez
07-25-2011, 7:48 AM
The buyer could've put something about Calguns or barrels in the instruction or info part of PP. PP doesn't allow gun parts to be sold thru them as well. They uses word filters to catch key words like "gun" for example. This is the same as Calguns catching **** or *** :D

Don't start the FUD.

PayPal doesn't allow gun parts to be sold through them? I use paypal to pay for gun parts I purchase on e-bay all the time. Bill-Me-Later which is owned by PayPal is also accepted at Cabelas, and I just used Bill-Me-Later to buy a new barrel for my 870 from Cableas a month ago - and thats pretty obviously a gun part.

Here are some random e-bay listings I just grabbed - plenty of gun parts being sold on ebay, all buyers accepting pay-pal.

1911 sear spring

http://cgi.ebay.com/1911-45-SEAR-SPRING-BLUED-STEEL-P-N-4530-/350354227987?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5192bd4313

kimber 1911 trigger

http://cgi.ebay.com/Kimber-1911-trigger-/170672291958?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27bcdc8076

remington 870 tactical stock

http://cgi.ebay.com/6-Position-Stock-Tri-Rail-Forend-Remington-870-NEW-/120731349700?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1c2632c4

JB-Norcal
07-25-2011, 7:54 AM
" and I have no idea how money orders work. " , forget PP and solve this problem.

bill_k_lopez
07-25-2011, 7:57 AM
They restrict only SOME items....


You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

1.violate any law, statute, ordinance or regulation

2.relate to sales of (a) narcotics, steroids, certain controlled substances or other products that present a risk to consumer safety, (b) drug paraphernalia, (c) items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity, (d) items that promote hate, violence, racial intolerance, or the financial exploitation of a crime, (e) items that are considered obscene, (f) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (g) certain sexually oriented materials or services, or (h) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (i) ,certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law

3.relate to transactions that (a) show the personal information of third parties in violation of applicable law, (b) support pyramid or ponzi schemes, matrix programs, other “get rich quick” schemes or certain multi-level marketing programs, (c) are associated with purchases of real property, annuities or lottery contracts, lay-away systems, off-shore banking or transactions to finance or refinance debts funded by a credit card, (d) are for the sale of certain items before the seller has control or possession of the item, (e) are by payment processors to collect payments on behalf of merchants, (f), are associated with the following Money Service Business activities: the sale of traveler’s checks or money orders, currency exchanges or check cashing,or (g) provide certain credit repair or debt settlement services

4.involve the sales of products or services identified by government agencies to have a high likelihood of being fraudulent
5.violate applicable laws or industry regulations regarding the sale of (a) tobacco products, or (b) prescription drugs and devices
6.involve gambling, gaming and/or any other activity with an entry fee and a prize, including, but not limited to casino games, sports betting, horse or greyhound racing, lottery tickets, other ventures that facilitate gambling, games of skill (whether or not it is legally defined as a lottery) and sweepstakes unless the operator has obtained prior approval from PayPal and the operator and customers are located exclusively in jurisdictions where such activities are permitted by law.

bill_k_lopez
07-25-2011, 8:02 AM
Did you publish your email address in your ad? If you did, that's how PayPal might have flagged your transaction - by simply associating the email address you use with your PayPal account to your username on Calguns forums.

Highly doubt it - one of the two said "firearms" in the details or put a direct link to what they were puchasing.

Do you think that paypal actualy has the man power to have people do that kind of hard core seraching? Comparing e-mail addresses to usernames on forums? I hate to tell you, but in the scope of things - Calguns is about the size of a pimple on a fly's *** in comparrison to all the internet and gun "related" things that people could have their names associated with.

emcon5
07-25-2011, 8:05 AM
"certain firearm parts or accessories"

Wow, that certainly is vague. Which parts or accessories?

goodlookin1
07-25-2011, 8:08 AM
There can be nothing mentioned like "gun", or "gun parts", or FFL in the message, title or anywhere. No links to calguns either, to be safe.

ALWAYS use words like "merchandise", "goods", or "gift".

Then, if there are specific instructions, email that person with a private email OUTSIDE of PP or PM them through the site, or talk on the phone. Its the only way to use PP for these types of transactions.




Did they not let the payment go through, so you are now out the money and have already sent the "merchandise"? ALWAYS make sure you have the money in YOUR bank account or cash in hand or check that you have called on and made sure it has sufficient funds in the account BEFORE sending off the "merchandise".

squee116
07-25-2011, 1:28 PM
There can be nothing mentioned like "gun", or "gun parts", or FFL in the message, title or anywhere. No links to calguns either, to be safe.

ALWAYS use words like "merchandise", "goods", or "gift".

Then, if there are specific instructions, email that person with a private email OUTSIDE of PP or PM them through the site, or talk on the phone. Its the only way to use PP for these types of transactions.




Did they not let the payment go through, so you are now out the money and have already sent the "merchandise"? ALWAYS make sure you have the money in YOUR bank account or cash in hand or check that you have called on and made sure it has sufficient funds in the account BEFORE sending off the "merchandise".

Nope, the money came through first, but my account was "limited" and I got an email from Paypal notifying me so, and that I could appeal the action taken. I have no idea what "limited" is, but I figured I'd better refund the money to the buyer in case it got frozen, and did so. I have yet to ship it out as the payment came late friday, and I had work on Saturday.

Also, I did not post my email. Additionally, even if paypal DID have an email checker, it seems rather circumstantial and weak to take action simply because I have a calguns account and received money. Other type of purchases happen on calguns. I'm trying to sell an Xbox 360 for a friend right now on the non-firearms sale board, for instance.