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View Full Version : Can I "Gift Myself" handguns? I think I figured it out.


morrcarr67
07-22-2011, 9:25 AM
OK I was just filling out my C&R handgun registration form for my new P-1 and I started think about something.

I know that's how I get myself in trouble.

I have two 03 C&R FFL's. One here in CA and one in NV.

If I buy say 3 or 4 handguns on my NV 03 C&R FFL can I "Gift" them to my self and use the OpLaw form for registration instead of the C&R Handgun Registration form?

EDIT:

Read post 6 and tell me what you think.

Librarian
07-22-2011, 9:51 AM
I'm sure those $19 fees for guns 2 and over would add up over time, so I guess I see the motivation, but I'm not sure how you can give yourself something you already own.

But I had a Resident Assistant in college who was a 1L, and he said "There's ways of gettin' 'round the law; that's what we're bein' lawyers for!"

(AFAIK, he didn't graduate from law school and went on to be a wine writer.)

paul0660
07-22-2011, 9:52 AM
Heck, push the envelope for the rest of us.

morrcarr67
07-22-2011, 9:59 AM
I'm sure those $19 fees for guns 2 and over would add up over time, so I guess I see the motivation, but I'm not sure how you can give yourself something you already own.

But I had a Resident Assistant in college who was a 1L, and he said "There's ways of gettin' 'round the law; that's what we're bein' lawyers for!"

(AFAIK, he didn't graduate from law school and went on to be a wine writer.)

That's funny.

Yup, as I was filling this out I was thinking how nice it was not to have to pay an 01 to receive C&R handguns for me.

Then, I started thinking about all the $19 checks I've sent to Sacramento. :(

morrcarr67
07-22-2011, 10:01 AM
Heck, push the envelope for the rest of us.

I might if some of the other people, you know who I mean :rolleyes:, chime in with their opinions.

morrcarr67
07-22-2011, 2:03 PM
I think I just figured it out.

I need to add my Mom to my NV 03 C&R FFL.

That way either one of us could buy C&R guns on that license.

But, then my Mom could give them to me.

I could then use the OpLaw form to register the handguns my Mom gives me.

How does that sound?

joefreas
07-22-2011, 2:07 PM
Gounds great. My grandmother "gifts" me all of my off roster handguns.

MasterYong
07-22-2011, 2:31 PM
Sounds like a straw purchase, but I'm no lawyer.

Having one person buy with the intention of another owning the handgun is a straw purchase, no?

I'm not referring to the OP, I'm referring to the fellow one post above that said his grandmother buys him guns to "gift" to him.

morrcarr67
07-22-2011, 2:40 PM
Sounds like a straw purchase, but I'm no lawyer.

Having one person buy with the intention of another owning the handgun is a straw purchase, no?

I'm not referring to the OP, I'm referring to the fellow one post above that said his grandmother buys him guns to "gift" to him.

No.

It is legal to buy firearms as "gifts" for other people.

The person receiving the gun as a gift must be able to legally own the firearm.

If they are not then it would be a straw purchase.

And, his Grandma can buy him off roster gifts because CA laws says that gifts from your Grand parent/Parent/Child/Grand Child are exempt from the roster.

Librarian
07-22-2011, 2:41 PM
I think I just figured it out.

I need to add my Mom to my NV 03 C&R FFL.

That way either one of us could buy C&R guns on that license.

But, then my Mom could give them to me.

I could then use the OpLaw form to register the handguns my Mom gives me.

How does that sound?

That might actually work - until your mom sensibly decides that most of the things she's buying are more appropriate for someone of her age. She'll tell you to check her will ... :D

CSACANNONEER
07-22-2011, 2:55 PM
Sounds like a straw purchase, but I'm no lawyer.

Having one person buy with the intention of another owning the handgun is a straw purchase, no?
I'm not referring to the OP, I'm referring to the fellow one post above that said his grandmother buys him guns to "gift" to him.

First, he was obviously joking. Secondly, it is not a straw purchase for someone to buy a firearm which is intended to be used as a gift. This is quit apparent to anyone who has ever filled out a 4473 since, there is even a question about it in the form.

A straw purchase is ONLY when someone purchases a firearm for someone else who is prohibited from owning said firearm. Otherwise, as long as all other laws are followed (in Ca this usually means PPTing it to the end user), it is perfectly legal to buy a firearm with the intention of giving it away.

morrcarr67
07-22-2011, 2:59 PM
That might actually work - until your mom sensibly decides that most of the things she's buying are more appropriate for someone of her age. She'll tell you to check her will ... :D

Sweet.

Now I just need to figure out how to add someone to my NV license. :laugh:

M. D. Van Norman
07-22-2011, 3:32 PM
That might actually work—until your mom sensibly decides that most of the things she’s buying are more appropriate for someone of her age. She’ll tell you to check her will …

:rofl:

Seriously, though, I would have to read the op-law exemptions to make a proper determination, but the idea sounds suspect to me. On the other hand, the DROS account is already overfunded, and I think the DOJ just wants our handguns properly registered.

MasterYong
07-22-2011, 3:41 PM
First, he was obviously joking. Secondly, it is not a straw purchase for someone to buy a firearm which is intended to be used as a gift. This is quit apparent to anyone who has ever filled out a 4473 since, there is even a question about it in the form.

A straw purchase is ONLY when someone purchases a firearm for someone else who is prohibited from owning said firearm. Otherwise, as long as all other laws are followed (in Ca this usually means PPTing it to the end user), it is perfectly legal to buy a firearm with the intention of giving it away.

To me, he is obviously serious. There is no implied joke in that post.

What I didn't know, was that it was legal for me to give money to my LEO friend, ask him to buy an off-roster handgun, then have him "sell" it to me. If the above is legal, then I have me some handguns to go "PPT."

Just seems fishy, but so do all the gun laws. All of them.

morrcarr67
07-22-2011, 3:56 PM
:rofl:

Seriously, though, I would have to read the op-law exemptions to make a proper determination, but the idea sounds suspect to me. On the other hand, the DROS account is already overfunded, and I think the DOJ just wants our handguns properly registered.

Why?

If she is on the NV license she would be considered an owner of the guns acquired on that license.

She could give them to me if she wanted to.

If she gives me guns don't they get registered via the OpLaw form if I decide I want to register them in CA?

MindBuilder
07-22-2011, 5:56 PM
What about using a living trust. The trust buys and owns the gun out of state and the trustee(you) gives them to you. I've heard of something similar being common for full auto weapons. I think it's called an NFA trust.

It's risky though. Anti-gun judges might just say it's breaking the law, as they frequently do whether it is or not, and make your life miserable.

M. D. Van Norman
07-22-2011, 7:12 PM
Why?

Sorry. I meant the original idea of “gifting” them to yourself. The parental exemption coupled with your FFL may well be solid.

But then, you know that I think the whole charade is unnecessary. ;)

Cokebottle
07-22-2011, 7:26 PM
If the gift is not really a gift, then it is dealing without a license.

Having multiple persons on one 03FFL might clear that, but I still don't see how a NV resident/FFL can "send" a handgun to a California 03 without going through an 01.

I think introducing mom complicates the issue unless the 03 represents a trust.

morrcarr67
07-23-2011, 5:17 AM
If the gift is not really a gift, then it is dealing without a license.

Having multiple persons on one 03FFL might clear that, but I still don't see how a NV resident/FFL can "send" a handgun to a California 03 without going through an 01.

I think introducing mom complicates the issue unless the 03 represents a trust.

Doesn't need to "send" it. I can cross state lines with my CA 03 and bring back any C&R firearms I want.

In this case I would be going to NV to pick up "gifts" from my Mother. I could bring them back with me and because they were gifts from Mom I could use the OpLaw form to register the handguns.

morrcarr67
07-23-2011, 5:20 AM
Sorry. I meant the original idea of “gifting” them to yourself. The parental exemption coupled with your FFL may well be solid.

But then, you know that I think the whole charade is unnecessary. ;)

Oh, I see. I know that idea was stretching it a bit much.

I agree.

It sucks doing this song and dance thing; but I'm willing to do it.

VegasND
07-23-2011, 6:56 AM
Crazy reading this thread. CA laws always leave me perplexed; It's one quality of living in the state I'm glad I don't have to put up with.

Please continue to discuss the legalities of complying with these laws. I always learn something from reading them.

CSACANNONEER
07-23-2011, 7:06 AM
Crazy reading this thread. CA laws always leave me perplexed; It's one quality of living in the state I'm glad I don't have to put up with.

Please continue to discuss the legalities of complying with these laws. I always learn something from reading them.

At least we don't have MANDATORY handgun registration and "blue cards" in Ca. I guess that you even have to register your homebuilds within a few days of completion, right?

That subject aside, a lot of this thread and the whole "gifting" thing is dealing with both State and Federal laws. In all, I think the Federal laws are what the OP needs to be clear on. He seems to have a pretty good grasp of how the state laws affect him and his 03 acquisitions.

VegasND
07-23-2011, 7:25 AM
It's only Clark County, but Nevada does seem intent on being 'California Lite' sometimes. People openly brag about refusing to register without being chased down by LEO. And, while we're on the subject of registration -- what's that $19 you have to send the state on every C&R handgun you bring in from out of state or every handgun acquired legally outside of DROS -- which also registers handguns? That is kind of a useless argument. The Blue Butt Wipe is free BTW -- the cops know if they made you pay for it nobody would do it; even so many people don't register ...
I can still own anything -- full auto, SBS, SBR, AOW, 11 or more round mags -- the list is long.
Try again, the fail is strong ...

At least we don't have MANDATORY handgun registration and "blue cards" in Ca. I guess that you even have to register your homebuilds within a few days of completion, right?

That subject aside, a lot of this thread and the whole "gifting" thing is dealing with both State and Federal laws. In all, I think the Federal laws are what the OP needs to be clear on. He seems to have a pretty good grasp of how the state laws affect him and his 03 acquisitions.

CSACANNONEER
07-23-2011, 8:13 AM
It's only Clark County, but Nevada does seem intent on being 'California Lite' sometimes. People openly brag about refusing to register without being chased down by LEO. And, while we're on the subject of registration -- what's that $19 you have to send the state on every C&R handgun you bring in from out of state or every handgun acquired legally outside of DROS -- which also registers handguns? That is kind of a useless argument. The Blue Butt Wipe is free BTW -- the cops know if they made you pay for it nobody would do it; even so many people don't register ...
I can still own anything -- full auto, SBS, SBR, AOW, 11 or more round mags -- the list is long.
Try again, the fail is strong ...

True, both systems suck. I'm not arguing with you there. I realize that it's only a Clarke County. I spend my fair share of time in Washoe and the surrounding Counties. Yes, importing a C&R handgun with an 03 does still require that you "register" it. But, the fact is that many of us do legally own unregistered handguns, +10 round mags, etc. in Ca but, in "gun friendly" NV, we would have to register them. Again, both systems suck. BTW, a few weeks back, we were shooting (a legally owned in Ca) KEG-12 in my yard. Just for kicks, we ran some old 12g tracer rounds through it because, they were easier for me to get to than other shotshells.

I'm not trying to say that Ca laws are better or worse than Clarke County laws. The "Fail" is in the fact that you seem to accept one bad system because, according to your views, it's not as bad as a different bad system. Aren't we all supposed to be working together to help put an end to all these unconstitional laws instead of just saying that "My F'ed up gun laws are not as bad as your Fed up gun laws"? The other "fail" I see is that this thread is about "gifting" a firearm from a resident of one state to a resident of another state. There are some other factors like the fact that parent and child are involved and an 03FFL is receiving a C&R firearm. Some here have questioned the fact that one part would be purchasing said firearms as "gifts" and that could be seen as a straw purchase. Of course, they are wrong about that. Anyway, the straw purchase, interstate transfer (even between parent and child), etc. are all covered under Federal laws. The only "perplexing" state law here is the $19 state aqusition form. That said, I was just pointing out the fact that even in your neck of the woods, there are much more "perplexing" gun laws such as mandatory registration.

morrcarr67
07-23-2011, 8:17 AM
In all, I think the Federal laws are what the OP needs to be clear on. He seems to have a pretty good grasp of how the state laws affect him and his 03 acquisitions.

I'm pretty clear on those too.

Federal law does allow firearms to be bought as gifts.

If Mother is on Federal Firearms License she could buy all the C&R firearms she wants with that license.

With either of my C&R licenses Federal Law allows me to travel across state lines to acquire C&R firearms.


EDIT:

CSACANNONEER - I can see your concern if the firearms being purchased were not C&R. There would be issues about transfers over state lines being done with out an FFL in the home state of the receiver. But because all of the firearms in question would be C&R and both Mom and myself would be licensed Collectors there should not be any thing to worry about.

CSACANNONEER
07-23-2011, 8:25 AM
To me, he is obviously serious. There is no implied joke in that post.

What I didn't know, was that it was legal for me to give money to my LEO friend, ask him to buy an off-roster handgun, then have him "sell" it to me. If the above is legal, then I have me some handguns to go "PPT."

Just seems fishy, but so do all the gun laws. All of them.

Just ask yourself a few questions. Is it common for family members to purchase expensive gifts for one another? Obviously, the answer is "yes" and this would be a decent arguement to use if grandma was ever accused of dealing firearms without a license. Now, ask yourself if it's common for LEOs to buy firearms and immediately sell them to friends? Well, I could see this happening on an occassional basis but, if it happens often, the LEO could easily be found to be dealing fireams without a license. No profit or intended profit is required here. So, while what you are proposing is perfectly legal, it could be putting you LEO friend's career and retirement on the line. Tread lightly and play it safe or, get your grandma (living in Ca) into an academy so that she can be exepmt from the roster and have good reason to buy firearms as gifts for you.

VegasND
07-23-2011, 8:28 AM
HUH?? You started out attacking me because of Clark County's idiotic handgun registration scheme. Which -- BTW is likely going to disappear soon while you guys start registering your long arms. The FAIL is the fact that you presume I accept an idiotic system. I tried to help elect a sheriff who would support abolition of the blue cards. That effort failed -- that's real fail -- not make-believe internet bs. The truth is both states infringe on our rights -- yours is much more egregious than mine and will be harder to fix.
At least we don't have MANDATORY handgun registration and "blue cards" in Ca. I guess that you even have to register your homebuilds within a few days of completion, right?

That subject aside, a lot of this thread and the whole "gifting" thing is dealing with both State and Federal laws. In all, I think the Federal laws are what the OP needs to be clear on. He seems to have a pretty good grasp of how the state laws affect him and his 03 acquisitions.

True, both systems suck. I'm not arguing with you there. I realize that it's only a Clarke County. I spend my fair share of time in Washoe and the surrounding Counties. Yes, importing a C&R handgun with an 03 does still require that you "register" it. But, the fact is that many of us do legally own unregistered handguns, +10 round mags, etc. in Ca but, in "gun friendly" NV, we would have to register them. Again, both systems suck. BTW, a few weeks back, we were shooting (a legally owned in Ca) KEG-12 in my yard. Just for kicks, we ran some old 12g tracer rounds through it because, they were easier for me to get to than other shotshells.

I'm not trying to say that Ca laws are better or worse than Clarke County laws. The "Fail" is in the fact that you seem to accept one bad system because, according to your views, it's not as bad as a different bad system. Aren't we all supposed to be working together to help put an end to all these unconstitional laws instead of just saying that "My F'ed up gun laws are not as bad as your Fed up gun laws"? The other "fail" I see is that this thread is about "gifting" a firearm from a resident of one state to a resident of another state. There are some other factors like the fact that parent and child are involved and an 03FFL is receiving a C&R firearm. Some here have questioned the fact that one part would be purchasing said firearms as "gifts" and that could be seen as a straw purchase. Of course, they are wrong about that. Anyway, the straw purchase, interstate transfer (even between parent and child), etc. are all covered under Federal laws. The only "perplexing" state law here is the $19 state aqusition form. That said, I was just pointing out the fact that even in your neck of the woods, there are much more "perplexing" gun laws such as mandatory registration.

conanobrennan
07-23-2011, 8:43 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if we see one of these 'gifts' end up in state court for import of illegal firearms. It could be considered a straw purchase because you're not legally allowed to purchase some firearms in cali and they are in nevada. So technically it is purchasing for someone that cannot legally obtain that weapon. as far as C&R licensing and how it'll affect this... I really don't know.

I don't see this style of 'gifting' as much of a stretch to get a straw purchase indictment if you're bringing guns into the state that cannot be legally purchased here. This is more for new guns that are not on the roster in California. but could it be challenged federally? might be a good case to try. I'm not volunteering though

morrcarr67
07-23-2011, 9:44 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if we see one of these 'gifts' end up in state court for import of illegal firearms. It could be considered a straw purchase because you're not legally allowed to purchase some firearms in cali and they are in nevada. So technically it is purchasing for someone that cannot legally obtain that weapon. as far as C&R licensing and how it'll affect this... I really don't know.

I don't see this style of 'gifting' as much of a stretch to get a straw purchase indictment if you're bringing guns into the state that cannot be legally purchased here. This is more for new guns that are not on the roster in California. but could it be challenged federally? might be a good case to try. I'm not volunteering though

You need to be a little more familiar with CA laws:


Effective January 1, 2001, no handgun may be manufactured within California, imported into California for sale, lent, given, kept for sale, or offered/exposed for sale unless that handgun model has passed firing, safety, and drop tests and is certified for sale in California by the Department of Justice. Private party transfers, curio/relic handguns, certain single-action revolvers, and pawn/consignment returns are exempt from this requirement.


Also:

I'm looking to collect a list of FFLs throughout California that will assist Californians in legal interstate intrafamily transfers of non-Rostered handguns.

As has been posted elsewhere before (stickied somewhere), it is entirely legal for someone outside outside CA to infrequently give his lineal relative(s) in CA non-Rostered, non-exempt handguns using the services of a California FFL.

Quite a few FFLs do not realize this, however. Knowledgable DOJ BoF staff have also confirmed this with some folks, (though I've heard some line DOJ BoF "phone clerks" may not know this).

The basics of intrafamily exemption, again:

12078(c) PC declares intrafamily exemption to CA FFL use for transfers inside CA;
12078(c) PC also defines authorized exempt lineal relationships;
12132PC defines various exemptions to Unsafe Handgun ("Roster") laws;



authorized lineal relations are defined to be between any of grandparent/parent/child/grandchild only (sorry, no brothers/uncles)


CA FFL is NOT required if both parties are CA residents within CA; direct handover is allowed




as long as recipient has valid HSC and files reg papers with DOJ (+$19/fee) within 30 days of
receipt of gun. In this case, both parties must be CA residents and within CA


use of CA FFL IS required if gun comes into CA from family member in another state - but that
is only to keep the *Feds* happy


it's good idea for supplying family member to write a simple "gift etter" identifying themselves, describing
his/her relationship to the recipient, along with the handgun's make/model/serial# ("I want my son
John Smith to have this nice Colt Python revolver, Serial# 12345"). A copy of this gift letter may be
useful to keep in files if any questions in an audit.


such transfers are *NOT* PPTs: thus FFLs' service fees are not mandated/restricted!


California FFLs should not opt out of this business, it's clearly legal, helps gunnies, offers profits, etc. Just educate your employees on this so they understand everything.

Speaking/writing as CGF board member, we will come in to help if you're following the rules and somebody says you shouldn't be doing this - they're just plain wrong.

Please PM me if you're willing to do this work. Ultimately everyone will do this (just like OLL sales) but we need some early leaders around the state to help out.

M. D. Van Norman
07-23-2011, 9:44 AM
I wouldn’t be surprised if we see one of these ‘gifts’ end up in state court for import of illegal firearms.

Only if he were to import an actual “illegal” firearm. C&R handguns that don’t meet the definition of “assault weapons” are expressly legal. Federal law requires an FFL on the receiving end of an interstate transaction, but California law exempts transfers between parents and children … though handguns must still be registered.

Rich Keagy
07-23-2011, 9:58 AM
You can gift one to yourself,
but you must act surprised.

morrcarr67
07-23-2011, 10:02 AM
And, while we're on the subject of registration -- what's that $19 you have to send the state on every C&R handgun you bring in from out of state or every handgun acquired legally outside of DROS -- which also registers handguns?

Which is what got me going on this whole thing.

C&R holders in CA can't have any handguns or rifles less then 50 years sent to their FFL.

All of these transactions have to be done with the use of an 01/07 FFL in CA. That means CA C&R holders have to pay a transfer fee for every one of these transactions.

Which is why I got my 2nd C&R FFL in NV. No more having to pay an 01/07 FFL a transfer fee.

Which brings me to the next point.

I still have to pay $19 for every handgun I bring into this state.

I can see the $19 for the first one on a reporting form but there should be no reason I have to pay $19 for each one. But, I bet they are only going to check me once but the will register all the guns to me. So the state incurs a fee on gun number one but not on the others, so why should I have to?

Which is why I came up with the "gifting" idea. CA's law on that is that I as the receiver of several handguns from my Grand Parent/Parent/Grand Chile/Child can register ALL handguns reported at one time for only $19. Which make believe what I said earlier about the state only doing a back ground check on me once for every form I send in.

morrcarr67
07-23-2011, 10:04 AM
You can gift one to yourself,
but you must act surprised.

:rofl2: that's funny :smilielol5:

VegasND
07-23-2011, 10:16 AM
That was my assumption. It is simple theft for governments to do things like this and any time you can find a legal path that avoids losing your money to them you've done well. I certainly hope you find a legitimate path that leads to your goal.
Which is what got me going on this whole thing.

C&R holders in CA can't have any handguns or rifles less then 50 years sent to their FFL.

All of these transactions have to be done with the use of an 01/07 FFL in CA. That means CA C&R holders have to pay a transfer fee for every one of these transactions.

Which is why I got my 2nd C&R FFL in NV. No more having to pay an 01/07 FFL a transfer fee.

Which brings me to the next point.

I still have to pay $19 for every handgun I bring into this state.

I can see the $19 for the first one on a reporting form but there should be no reason I have to pay $19 for each one. But, I bet they are only going to check me once but the will register all the guns to me. So the state incurs a fee on gun number one but not on the others, so why should I have to?

Which is why I came up with the "gifting" idea. CA's law on that is that I as the receiver of several handguns from my Grand Parent/Parent/Grand Chile/Child can register ALL handguns reported at one time for only $19. Which make believe what I said earlier about the state only doing a back ground check on me once for every form I send in.

Cokebottle
07-23-2011, 12:17 PM
Doesn't need to "send" it. I can cross state lines with my CA 03 and bring back any C&R firearms I want.

In this case I would be going to NV to pick up "gifts" from my Mother. I could bring them back with me and because they were gifts from Mom I could use the OpLaw form to register the handguns.
Interstate intrafamilial transfer requires an 01/02/07FFL.
Your 03FFL does allow you to drive to NV (or any other state) and pick up/import C&Rs without the use of a California FFL, but you need to use the appropriate form to execute the registration in addition to having it logged into your bound book. The Intrafamilial OpLaw is not the correct form for that transaction.

If it is not truly a gift, it is 100% illegal to use the OpLaw in any case... If you give mom the money to buy the gun, she is acting as a dealer illegally unless your NV 03FFL is a trust (and I don't know if that is even possible).

You're really getting into legally risky territory. You'll probably get away with it, but it could cause some drama if/when the BATFE audits your bound book.

BTW: How do you handle the bound book currently? Do you log in to your NV book, then log out transfer to yourself and log into your California book transfer from yourself?

Cokebottle
07-23-2011, 12:22 PM
Federal law does allow firearms to be bought as gifts.

If Mother is on Federal Firearms License she could buy all the C&R firearms she wants with that license.
But it is not legal for you to send money to her for her to buy a gun to later "gift" to you.

Ya... it would be difficult to prove, especially if you pay her in cash, but it's still a violation of Federal law.

morrcarr67
07-23-2011, 1:23 PM
(1) Interstate intrafamilial transfer requires an 01/02/07FFL.

(2) Your 03FFL does allow you to drive to NV (or any other state) and pick up/import C&Rs without the use of a California FFL, but you need to use the appropriate form to execute the registration in addition to having it logged into your bound book. The Intrafamilial OpLaw is not the correct form for that transaction.

(3) BTW: How do you handle the bound book currently? Do you log in to your NV book, then log out transfer to yourself and log into your California book transfer from yourself?

(1) True for MODERN firearms and someone with out a C&R FFL. We are not talking about modern firearms and I have a C&R FFL.

(2) They would be logged in my BB. They are gifts from my Mom why couldn't I use the OpLaw form? That's what it's there for.

(3) That is exactly how I do it.

morrcarr67
07-23-2011, 1:24 PM
But it is not legal for you to send money to her for her to buy a gun to later "gift" to you.

Ya... it would be difficult to prove, especially if you pay her in cash, but it's still a violation of Federal law.

I never said I would

JDay
07-23-2011, 1:38 PM
Sounds like a straw purchase, but I'm no lawyer.

Not even close to the definition of a straw purchase. A straw purchase is when somebody buys a firearm for a prohibited person.

Cokebottle
07-23-2011, 3:13 PM
(1) True for MODERN firearms and someone with out a C&R FFL. We are not talking about modern firearms and I have a C&R FFL.
True for C&R handguns as well, unless you physically drive out of state to take possession.
(2) They would be logged in my BB. They are gifts from my Mom why couldn't I use the OpLaw form? That's what it's there for.Because you are going out of state to take possession and then importing them as C&Rs.
The OpLaw form covers in-state handgun transfers.

Even if mom gets her own 03FFL, she can't ship a handgun to you. You have to go and get it. When it comes back into California, it must be registered and the OpLaw form is not the correct form for doing that.

Now... Can an out of state 03 drive to California and transfer a handgun to a California 03 without using an 01/02/07? I don't think so, and that's the only way I see this idea as being legal to use the OpLaw (with mom getting her own 03FFL).

And if mom gets her own FFL, there's always the issue of the question on the renewal:

How many C&R firearms did you acquire during the last 36 months? 20
How many C&R firearms did you dispose of during the last 36 months? 20

Might be a problem when they pull an audit and she has no C&Rs in her possession, yet has frequent transactions logged... especially when they are logged in for only a short period of time.
"I bought them for my son".... that'll fly for a few infrequent transfers, but if she's doing it all the time it'll create drama.

morrcarr67
07-24-2011, 8:37 AM
Because you are going out of state to take possession and then importing them as C&Rs.


No. I'm receiving gifts that happen to be C&R handguns. As a holder of 03 C&R license it is legal for me to pick up my gifts of C&R handguns in a state other than my state of residency and bring them back with me.


The OpLaw form covers in-state handgun transfers.


Can you show any PC that says this? I have been over the OpLaw form and nowhere does it say this. I have also been over the PC about Intrafamily Transfers and it is not mentioned there either.

IF you can't produce PC I would have to say your statement is incorrect on that.


And if mom gets her own FFL, there's always the issue of the question on the renewal:

How many C&R firearms did you acquire during the last 36 months? 20
How many C&R firearms did you dispose of during the last 36 months? 20

Might be a problem when they pull an audit and she has no C&Rs in her possession, yet has frequent transactions logged... especially when they are logged in for only a short period of time.
"I bought them for my son".... that'll fly for a few infrequent transfers, but if she's doing it all the time it'll create drama.

I'm sorry if I went off somewhere. Mom will not have her "own" C&R. She will be listed on "my" NV C&R FFL. Meaning "we" hold the license together. As "co-holder" she could buy all the C&R guns she wants. There won't be an issue at renewal because my name is listed on both FFL's.

EOD Guy
07-24-2011, 8:46 AM
Not even close to the definition of a straw purchase. A straw purchase is when somebody buys a firearm for a prohibited person.

Not quite. A straw purchase is one in which you purchase a firearm for another person in order for that person to avoid filling out a 4473 and avoiding the back ground check. The offense is lying on the 4473 on question number 1.

Whether a person is prohibited or not has nothing to do with it. Transferring to a prohibited person is an additional charge. It's still a straw purchase even if the receiving person is fully qualified to make the purchase themself.

M. D. Van Norman
07-24-2011, 9:16 AM
Even if mom gets her own 03FFL, she can’t ship a handgun to you. You have to go and get it.

Please direct me to the section of code that prohibits this otherwise exempted transfer between parent and child and to an enforceable section that specifies the actual means by which a C&R firearm may be self-imported. Thank you.

emcon5
07-24-2011, 9:55 AM
There is the small point that you Mom's C&R is for enhancing her collection, not yours.

Cokebottle
07-24-2011, 3:50 PM
No. I'm receiving gifts that happen to be C&R handguns. As a holder of 03 C&R license it is legal for me to pick up my gifts of C&R handguns in a state other than my state of residency and bring them back with me.
Of course. 100% legal.
Can you show any PC that says this? I have been over the OpLaw form and nowhere does it say this. I have also been over the PC about Intrafamily Transfers and it is not mentioned there either.
I'd really like to get an opinion from Gene or Bill on this, but I don't see it as being legal.

Are you importing the handgun as a private importer legally using the C&R status, or is the gun being transferred to you?

If you are importing it as a C&R holder, same as if you bought it from J&G, then the OpLaw is not the correct form.

If mom is gifting it to you, then OpLaw would be correct if she is a California resident and the transfer takes place inside of California.

If she is gifting it to you outside of California, then you are once again importing it legally as a C&R. She gifts it to you in Nevada following Nevada and Federal law. That is one transaction. The transfer is complete. You are now in possession of the gun and you legally own it.

There is no twist of logic that supports an OpLaw intrafamilial transfer across state lines for C&R handguns. The TRANSFER took place at Mom's home. You are importing a gun that was given to you in Nevada. The only remaining issue is that the gun must now be registered in California. Since the transfer did not take place within California, OpLaw would not apply, since OpLaw is for intrafamilial transfers between California residents.
The transfer was complete before the gun came into California. No different than if you bought one from J&G. The same form needs to be used to register it into the California system.



Go ahead... Try it.
File an OpLaw listing Mom's Nevada address and your California address and see if it gets approved.

Cokebottle
07-24-2011, 3:59 PM
Please direct me to the section of code that prohibits this otherwise exempted transfer between parent and child and to an enforceable section that specifies the actual means by which a C&R firearm may be self-imported. Thank you.
It's not exempt.

No firearm may cross state lines in the process of a transfer without an FFL being involved. That's Federal law.
A California 03FFL may receive long guns directly from an out of state shipper. That satisfies California and Federal law.
A California 03FFL may not receive handguns directly from an out of state shipper. That's California law. Federal law doesn't care.
A California 03FFL may acquire C&R handguns or long guns outside of California and bring them home legally.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_firearms_Interstate


You are asking me to prove a negative. There is no exemption for 03FFLs that allows a handgun to be shipped directly to them.
If this exemption existed, it would be the only way that the OpLaw form would be applicable.
The OpLaw registers a handgun for a TRANSFER within California.

In the OP's case, the transfer is taking place legally outside of California under the terms of his 03FFL and Nevada law.
The gun must be registered in California in a manner no different than if he were to purchase the gun from any other private seller or dealer.

johnthomas
07-24-2011, 4:10 PM
Sounds like a straw purchase, but I'm no lawyer.

Having one person buy with the intention of another owning the handgun is a straw purchase, no?

I'm not referring to the OP, I'm referring to the fellow one post above that said his grandmother buys him guns to "gift" to him.

No, you are not. It is not against the law to buy and gift guns to a lawful person.
A straw purchase is when a buyer uses an intermediary (the "straw man") to purchase a firearm(s) from a licensed firearms dealer. The purpose is to hide the true identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm(s). Straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the actual possessor. Frequently, the actual purchaser is a prohibited person under federal law.

M. D. Van Norman
07-24-2011, 6:37 PM
There is no exemption for 03FFLs that allows a handgun to be shipped directly to them.

I know. Now cite the bloody code the prohibits it. :p

… Which was not even the still-unanswered question I asked earlier. :sleeping:

Cokebottle
07-24-2011, 7:22 PM
I know. Now cite the bloody code the prohibits it. :p
I can't cite a PC that doesn't exist.

There is no exemption for 03's for handguns.

EOD Guy
07-25-2011, 7:27 AM
I know. Now cite the bloody code the prohibits it. :p

… Which was not even the still-unanswered question I asked earlier. :sleeping:

California Penal Code 12072(d):

12072(d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

27CFR478.58 which states that you must comply with State laws.

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart D_Licenses

Sec. 478.58 State or other law.

A license issued under this part confers no right or privilege to
conduct business or activity contrary to State or other law. The holder
of such a license is not by reason of the rights and privileges granted
by that license immune from punishment for operating a firearm or
ammunition business or activity in violation of the provisions of any
State or other law. Similarly, compliance with the provisions of any
State or other law affords no immunity under Federal law or regulations.

27CFR478.24(b) which states that the publication "State Laws and Published Ordinances-Firearms" is incorporated by reference into 27CFR and thus is considered part of the Federal Regulation.

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.24 Compilation of State laws and published ordinances.

(b) ``State Laws and Published Ordinances--Firearms'' is
incorporated by reference in this part. It is ATF Publication 5300.5,
revised yearly. The current edition is available from the Superintendent
of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC 20402. It
is also available for inspection at the National Archives and Records
Administration (NARA). For information on the availability of this
material at NARA, call 202-741-6030, or go to: http://www.archives.gov/
federal--register/code--of--federal--regulations/ibr--locations.html.
This incorporation by reference was approved by the Director of the
Federal Register.

M. D. Van Norman
07-25-2011, 8:26 AM
I can’t cite a PC that doesn’t exist.

Exactly! Though I can see that you’re still misreading me. ;)


California Penal Code 12072(d):

We’re doing the dance again. I’m with you if you want to be willfully conservative, but then I still want to know how some vendors can get away with abusing the old-rifle exemption … and avoiding payment of their sales tax. :p

EOD Guy
07-25-2011, 2:02 PM
Exactly! Though I can see that you’re still misreading me. ;)




We’re doing the dance again. I’m with you if you want to be willfully conservative, but then I still want to know how some vendors can get away with abusing the old-rifle exemption … and avoiding payment of their sales tax. :p

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by vendors abusing the old rifle exemption.:confused:

M. D. Van Norman
07-25-2011, 3:34 PM
I’m referring to large out-of-state vendors who sell hundreds or thousands of C&R rifles to licensed collectors from California during the course of a year. You have insisted in the past that they are using the exemption for 50-year-old C&R long guns. However, if their interstate transactions are subject to California law at all, then I would counter that they are abusing said exemption.

Of course, you have also concluded that sale equals purchase, which is where we will have to disagree … absent case law. :)

Cokebottle
07-25-2011, 3:46 PM
I’m referring to large out-of-state vendors who sell hundreds or thousands of C&R rifles to licensed collectors from California during the course of a year. You have insisted in the past that they are using the exemption for 50-year-old C&R long guns. However, if their interstate transactions are subject to California law at all, then I would counter that they are abusing said exemption.
The exemption is only valid for 03FFL holders (and you did mention that, but further commentary seemed to ignore it).

The only potential violation of the law is their failing to collect sales tax.

That is not a requirement unless the business has a brick-and-mortar presence within California. Yes, sales/use tax is due, but it may be EITHER collected by the seller and forwarded to the BOE, or it is to be reported by the buyer on his state tax return.

It is neither illegal, nor an "abuse" of the "old rifle exemption" for J&G to ship a rifle to my door without charging sales tax.
Of course, you have also concluded that sale equals purchase, which is where we will have to disagree … absent case law. :)
The issue is "transfer"... sale/purchase/gift matters not.
The firearms transfer must comply with Federal and State law.

M. D. Van Norman
07-25-2011, 6:40 PM
Actually, the exemption has nothing to do with C&R FFLs. Sorry.

If J&G must abide by California law while operating in Arizona, then they had better keep their C&R long-gun sales “occasional and without regularity” … when dealing with Californians anyway.

Cokebottle
07-25-2011, 6:48 PM
Actually, the exemption has nothing to do with C&R FFLs. Sorry.

If J&G must abide by California law while operating in Arizona, then they had better keep their C&R long-gun sales “occasional and without regularity” … when dealing with Californians anyway.
??????

Totally lost me on that one.

They are an FFL. "Occasional and without regularity" applies to private party sales.
Their customers have to abide by California law. They have to abide by Federal law.
California's ability to enforce laws against them pretty much ends at them shipping prohibited items into the state (high caps, etc...).

EOD Guy
07-26-2011, 6:28 AM
??????

Totally lost me on that one.

They are an FFL. "Occasional and without regularity" applies to private party sales.
Their customers have to abide by California law. They have to abide by Federal law.
California's ability to enforce laws against them pretty much ends at them shipping prohibited items into the state (high caps, etc...).

I'll have to disagree in that it is a condition of their FFL that they must comply with all State laws as well as Federal law. See my post number 51 for an explanation. BATF can write them up for violating California law.

We also seem to have wandered off subject for this thread. It's partially my fault.

M. D. Van Norman
07-26-2011, 7:43 AM
Yes, we seem to have danced away from the original topic. Looking at the scenario of morrcarr’s out-of-state parent giving him an eligible C&R handgun, I think both federal and state law would be satisfied. However, others have raised valid technical concerns regarding the transfer of handguns that aren’t bona fide gifts, though prosecution of such a technical violation absent other wrongdoing would seem to be a pointless exercise in vanity.

I’ll leave misinterpretation of the old-rifle exemption for another day. :devil2:

Cokebottle
07-26-2011, 5:51 PM
Oh, there's no question that he can drive to another state with his CA/NV 03FFL and legally buy or be gifted all the C&Rs he wants.

But the Op-Law intrafamilial TRANSFER form is not the proper form for registering the gun in California, because the TRANSFER is taking place legally under his FFL in the state where he is located when he takes possession.

There is no TRANSFER taking place within California. OpLaw is no good.

Cokebottle
07-26-2011, 5:53 PM
I'll have to disagree in that it is a condition of their FFL that they must comply with all State laws as well as Federal law. See my post number 51 for an explanation. BATF can write them up for violating California law.
I don't see how they are in violation.
California does not require the collection of sales tax by an out of state entity that does not also have a physical presence within California.
It is the responsibility of the buyer to report the sale on his CA income tax return and pay the owed sales/use tax.

fabguy
07-26-2011, 6:23 PM
wait, my father in Ohio can purchase a firearm there, visit here in california and gift it to me when he is here?

Librarian
07-26-2011, 6:30 PM
wait, my father in Ohio can purchase a firearm there, visit here in california and gift it to me when he is here?

Yes, so long as he takes it to a CA FFL for the transfer.

See also the Calguns Foundation Wiki articles on

Intrafamilial transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members

Interstate transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_firearms_Interstate

M. D. Van Norman
07-26-2011, 7:06 PM
There is no TRANSFER taking place within California.…

Unless there is … which is part of our overall disagreement. :D

morrcarr67
07-26-2011, 7:28 PM
Oh, there's no question that he can drive to another state with his CA/NV 03FFL and legally buy or be gifted all the C&Rs he wants.

But the Op-Law intrafamilial TRANSFER form is not the proper form for registering the gun in California, because the TRANSFER is taking place legally under his FFL in the state where he is located when he takes possession.

There is no TRANSFER taking place within California. OpLaw is no good.

The fact that the exchange of a gift is taking place out side of CA has nothing to do with it.

The fact that we both; in this exercise, hold FFL's doesn't change the fact that it is a gift. CA laws states that gifts of handguns between GP/P/GC/C are exempt from the need to use a dealer; note I said dealer and not licensee, for transfer and that they should be completed by filling out the OpLaw form. Federal law allows a non-licensee or licensee to give a licensee of a different state a firearm while they are in a state other than where licensed.

So again I ask you to please tell me where it says that the exchange of this gift must be done in CA to use the OpLaw form.

You are also reading things that have note been posted. I never said where my mom lives. But to clear up that matter she lives here in CA.

You are also reading things that haven't been asked for:



Go ahead... Try it.
File an OpLaw listing Mom's Nevada address and your California address and see if it gets approved.

Re-read the OpLaw form. The only address being asked for is for the person registering the gun(s)

Cokebottle
07-26-2011, 7:28 PM
Unless there is … which is part of our overall disagreement. :D
But there isn't.
He's talking about going to NV and executing the transfer there.

That's the extent of it involving mom.

On the original original question, can he gift it to himself using the intrafamilial transfer.... that might work in West Virginia ;)

M. D. Van Norman
07-27-2011, 7:06 AM
Actually, it was never clear where the hand-off would take place, so you may have a good point about the op-law approach. Otherwise, the where and how remain points of contention. :)

Cokebottle
07-27-2011, 6:12 PM
Actually, it was never clear where the hand-off would take place, so you may have a good point about the op-law approach. Otherwise, the where and how remain points of contention. :)
He said it would be in Nevada (it has to take place in Nevada because, being a handgun, it can not be shipped or hand-delivered even to a C&R holder). Mom can't bring it to him without going to an FFL for a full-fee transfer... and even I couldn't hand-deliver one without doing a $35 PPT.

That is if it is handed off from his Mom to him, assuming he can get his mom listed on his 03 (and I don't think that's possible because it's not a "business" license where you can have multiple persons operating under one FFL).

His ORIGINAL idea was to, as he has been doing, have C&R handguns shipped to his Nevada residence under his Nevada 03.
Then he goes to Nevada, retrieves the guns, and brings them into California under his California 03.
They are logged into and out of his NV bound book acquired from "No-Bubba Guns", and disposed of to himself, listing his CA 03 and address.
They are then logged into his California 03 bound book as acquired from himself, listing his NV address and 03 information.

He confirmed with the BATFE that this was legal and acceptable.
He's been doing it for a little over 6 months, maybe a year.

His NEW idea is to "gift" the gun to himself and use the OpLaw to register the transfer, since that can cover multiple handguns for one $19 fee, while the normal method of registering C&R handguns is $19 per gun.

M. D. Van Norman
07-28-2011, 7:37 AM
Maybe I missed where morrcarr said that the transfers would occur while he was visiting Nevada.

In any case, his mother can ship an eligible C&R handgun directly to him as a gift. He is a licensed collector, so he is covered under federal law for the interstate transfer. It’s a parent-to-child transfer, so it’s exempt from the dealer requirements under California law. The op-law form may or may not apply depending on how you view the situation, but the practical results are the same.

de1911
07-28-2011, 8:28 AM
Yes, so long as he takes it to a CA FFL for the transfer.

I thought FFLs could only execute PPTs if both persons were CA residents, is that not correct?

M. D. Van Norman
07-28-2011, 8:43 AM
It wouldn’t be a PPT in this case, but it could be a roster-exempt interstate transfer. Of course, C&R handguns are already exempt from the roster.

Cokebottle
07-29-2011, 5:34 PM
Maybe I missed where morrcarr said that the transfers would occur while he was visiting Nevada.
That was the whole premise of his idea from the first post (Hence, the title "Can I "Gift Myself" handguns? I think I figured it out.")
He was thinking about using the OpLaw for personal importation, "gifting" the gun to himself from his NV 03 to his CA 03.
Mom got brought into the discussion as a possibility, but with her being in Nevada, the transfer must take place there OR it has to go through a dealer in California.
In any case, his mother can ship an eligible C&R handgun directly to him as a gift. He is a licensed collector, so he is covered under federal law for the interstate transfer. It’s a parent-to-child transfer, so it’s exempt from the dealer requirements under California law.
I hope you do not have an 03 and are doing this.

California requires ALL handguns that are not antiques (1898 or older) to be processed through an FFL except for in-state intrafamilial transfers.

His 03 does not exempt him from the dealer requirement for an out of state transfer IF the gun is shipped in, however, yes, he can travel to Nevada and legally take possession there and personally import it.

Intrafamilial, interstate handgun transfers are roster exempt, but they are not FFL-exempt for a California 03.
Long guns? Yes... the 03 is exempt.
The op-law form may or may not apply depending on how you view the situation, but the practical results are the same.
Nahh.... Results are very different.
If the OpLaw could be used, then it would be $19 for as many handguns as he can fit on the form and the attachments.
If it can't be used, it's $19 per handgun.
That adds up when he's buying 10 handguns over a 6 month period under his NV 03 and making one trip to NV to retrieve them.
$19 vs $190... I can see why he wants to do it.