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justbill5789
07-21-2011, 2:34 PM
I was listening to an AM talk show on the way back from the range, in the south bay. The first topic was around the recent shooting by the BART police. The topic soon switched to guns and the 2nd amendment. The radio host, surprise, was actually pro 2A and was doing a good job of defending his position. The caller had some very wrong position, comments and seemed to contradict himself. I so wanted to call into the show and voice my opinion. However, I am not educated enough to truly defend some of incorrect positions and comments the caller made. I am also smart enough to know that not knowing the facts and speaking about 2A can do more damage than help.
All this made me think about how do you get education to defend the 2A rights and counter the stupid statements that people make. I am an engineer, so I want facts. I find the forums helpful but there is always a blurring of opinion, FUD and facts.
I would love to get feedback from people on how I and other can become educated enough to defend the 2A opinion. Seriously, I am getting passionate about this and see this as a challenge. I am looking for books, websites, articles, etc.

Thanks,
Just Bill

Donny1
07-21-2011, 2:58 PM
I started my education by joining calguns. From here people inspire me to reach out for more knowledge on all levels.

aklover_91
07-21-2011, 3:00 PM
I dunno, man. I know my stuff but it started when it was about ten years old and involved lots and lots of time reading and researching, tracking down court cases, and so on.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's an easy one stop spot to learn about the legal side of things.

pointedstick
07-21-2011, 3:07 PM
Read. Absorb. Read. Learn. Read. Read. Read. Here are the books that I started out with on my pro-2A journey:

In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob
The Ayoob Files: The Book by Massad Ayoob
Armed & Female by Paxton Quigley
Not only for women! I have a Y chromosome and this book was hugely relevant and eye opening to me.
Guns Don't Die, People Do by Pete Shields
Know thy Enemy. Pete Shields founded Handgun Control Inc. If you want to learn what makes your opponents tick, let them tell you. They've written written books; read them!

I've heard that books by Jeff Cooper are good too, though I've never read any. And of course, stick around Calguns and other gun forums. You'll pick up a lot real fast.

gunsmith
07-21-2011, 3:41 PM
http://www.guncite.com/ is pretty good.
forums like gun rights media, the firing line, and calguns of course.

Milsurp Collector
07-21-2011, 3:48 PM
All this made me think about how do you get education to defend the 2A rights and counter the stupid statements that people make. I am an engineer, so I want facts. I find the forums helpful but there is always a blurring of opinion, FUD and facts.
I would love to get feedback from people on how I and other can become educated enough to defend the 2A opinion. Seriously, I am getting passionate about this and see this as a challenge. I am looking for books, websites, articles, etc.



Start with
http://www.guncite.com/
http://www.saf.org/default.asp?p=gunrights_faq
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html

To hone and sharpen your arguments you have to practice against anti-gunners in a target-rich environment. The best place I have found for that is http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/gun-control They frequently have gun control-related articles as well as blog posts by the Brady Campaign's Paul Helmke and Dennis Henigan, and VPC's Josh Sugarmann. The articles generate thousands of comments, mostly from gun-haters. It is a good place to practice your debating skills. There is a group of us there who are pro-RKBA, and while heavily outnumbered we easily defeat the antis because the anti-gunners' arguments are based on emotion, misinformation, and just sheer ignorance. Register there and then join the debates, it's fun.

I have a whole list of bookmarked links so whenever I want to back up my claims or shoot down theirs I have the evidence.

Whenever they say the Second Amendment applies only to "a well-regulated militia" I give them

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA et al. v. HELLER

No. 07–290. Argued March 18, 2008—Decided June 26, 2008

Held:

1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html


When they say something like "the Second Amendment says you can have a single-shot musket, not an Uzi" I tell them the Supreme Court said their argument borders on the frivolous:

Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment . We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 849 (1997) , and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35–36 (2001) , the Second Amendment extends, prima facie,to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZO.html


When they whine about the "gun show loophole" I point out that only 0.7% of criminals obtained their guns at a gun show http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf

When they say assault weapons should be banned I point out that a study commissioned by the Dept. of Justice found that the 1994-2004 ban had almost no effect:


AWs were used in only a small fraction of gun crimes prior to the ban: about 2% according to most studies and no more than 8%. Most of the AWs used in crime are assault pistols rather than assault rifles.

Should it be renewed, the ban’s effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement. AWs were rarely used in gun crimes even before the ban.

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/jerrylee/research/aw_exec2004.pdf


and that more people are murdered each year with hands, fists, and feet than with all types of rifles, including "assault rifles" http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_08.html

and so on. It really is fun to coolly and calmly pick them apart with Supreme Court decisions, facts, and statistics.

CaliforniaLiberal
07-21-2011, 3:56 PM
This Forum is about the best online resource for 2nd Amendment Law on all the internets, particularly of the California Law flavor.

Here's a better way to search CalGuns. http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=018149931542195181678:pzxbzjzh1zk

Start playing with the CalGuns Wiki http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Main_Page

Some of the most authoritative CalGuns members are Librarian, Bweise, and Hoffmang. There are many others. Spend at least an hour a day reading here and you'll soon get a sense of who you can trust.

Read the documents and briefs for court cases posted here. Before long they will start making sense to you. These threads can run to many dozens of pages, learn to skim through to the most informative posts.

If you can, go to one of the oral arguments in court. Generally there is a CalGuns group that go together and have dinner and drinks after. Gives you a chance to meet and listen to the lawyers involved.

Post questions on CalGuns. If you have a legal question chances are that thousands of other forum members have the same question and will be glad to read your thread.

There are many sources online. I don't know of any easy way to get started, I just kind of dove into the deep end and started swimming around. If you start in on an article that is way above your level of understanding, start looking up terms that you don't understand.

Search Amazon.com for books, search Google, search YouTube. After a little while of fumbling around your search skills will improve. Be patient and persistent.

Wikipedia is a great resource, has simple explanations of complex subjects, it's 99% accurate, don't make it your sole source of info.

Here's a couple of sites to get you started:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/index.php

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html

http://volokh.com/

http://www.hoffmang.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjM9fcEzSJ0&feature=related

http://armsandthelaw.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Gun_Laws

http://www.gunlaws.com/

http://www.thehighroad.org/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_xaTf5oqI

Books and articles by Massad Ayoob

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bSUAAEYEM&feature=related

http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/LegalCalifornia

Look on the front page of CalGuns.net - tons of links and sources. http://www.calguns.net


Don't get discouraged. Be patient, be persistent. You're starting on a journey of a thousand miles and it will start with just one step.

One more thing...

Small bits of Gun Law are changed every year by new laws from the legislature, make sure you're reading the most recent version.

Good Luck!

Librarian
07-21-2011, 4:10 PM
Guncite is a good practical overview.

Legal reasoning, go for the filings in Heller (http://dcguncase.com/blog/) and McDonald (http://www.chicagoguncase.com/). Read the amici filings first, then the merits filings.

Pretty much any academic work done before 2008 is out of date since Heller.

dantodd
07-21-2011, 4:27 PM
The best way, IMO, is to read the 2A forum here. you'll learn quickly who to pay the most attention to. Follow up on the citations and cases mentioned. Reading legal opinions is great because they ALWAYS cite their sources and authorities. You could easily spend 100 hours just reading the Heller opinion and the readily available sources cited in the opinion.

You should also be following the following on twitter:
@hoffmang
@combs_brandon
@calgunsfdn
@calgunlawyers
@the_quark
@adamwinkler
@davekopel
@donkilmer
@joshbtweets
@VolokhC

I'm sure there are many others I've missed (just thought of NRA too.)

Connor P Price
07-21-2011, 4:34 PM
Pretty much any academic work done before 2008 is out of date since Heller.

This seems to be a highly unrecognized truth. Heller, and then McDonald changed the landscape entirely. Many suits to come over the next decade or so are likely to rely heavily on the decisions in those two cases.

With that in mind a great book to read will be Gunfight, by Adam Winkler (who dantodd just mentioned.) The book is scheduled to come out this September I believe and promises to give a strong well reasoned analysis of the history of the 2A and how it will be shaped going forward by the changes given to us by the aforementioned cases. Winkler is a ConLaw professor at UCLA and a very intelligent man.

choprzrul
07-21-2011, 7:56 PM
I have a thread over in General Gun Discussions that is sticky'd:

Books & Reference Materials: Recommended Reading List (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=379330)

If anyone has something that they want me to add to that list, just post on that thread and I will get it posted.

.

warbird
07-21-2011, 8:07 PM
Read the original second amendment wording and decide for your self what it means. The document was designed to be read by the common man in what was considered basic language back then. Then get your high blood pressure pills ready and start reading the court decisions and how the courts have altered the meaning over the years. Everyone has their own opinion and you know the old saying about opinions and a certain part of your body. Everybody has one of each and at times they can rival each other when it comes to stink. You need to decide what the second amendment means to you and not what anyone else says it does. You are about to get an education. Happy reading and don't take too many high blood pressure pills in the process.

DocSkinner
07-21-2011, 8:49 PM
While Heller has changed how things are now thought of, I totally disagree with it changing everything and nullifying everything written before that case, particularly as Heller cites/references many previous cases and decisions in coming to the conclusion that the 2nd A is an individual right. Don't forget that what was found in Heller was popular opinion until the 70s or so when the banners started twisting it the other way.

Many have cited some great works on defending yourself and using firearms, but that isn't the core of the 2nd Am battle.

I would say in addition to many of the above books and web sites, everyone interested in this subject should own these three books MINIMUM:

1)
Gun Control and the Constitution: Sources and Explorations on the Second Amendment. Edited by Robert j. Cottrol

You can get it new for ~$10 and used copies for pennies. It gives a great insight into the history of the Amendment and the cases that led to Heller, and help define the decision in Heller.

2)

The Bias Against by John Lott, JR


3)

More Guns, Less Crime By John R. Lott.

These books all present the reasoned and rational material that will get you through debates on gun ownership, not just on gun use.

Warbird makes a point - kinda. You should read the Amendment itself, *AND* the Articles of Confederation dealing with the now 2nd A (it wasn't originally number 2!). Language and language usage changes often - and the language of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is over 200 years old. In some ways it is like trying to read Shakespeare and get all the meanings without reading the annotated versions, or Cliff notes versions. It is written in plain English, so anyone should understand it perfectly - or so the (wrong) reasoning goes. The Articles of Confederation help understand why that particular language was used, and why it says things in a way that now people challenge as language has changed.

Some of the Articles are discussed in the first book I listed, and they are often cited in the opinions on the cases that have been heard to help determine original intent.

Always also remember that to win a debate, you have to understand the other side's argument. Not agree, but understand, and that way you can pick away at the foundations of their argument instead of just seeing who can shout their version teh loudest.

darkwater
07-21-2011, 8:49 PM
For a historical documentary on the 2A, here's a great video I watched: http://www.secondamendmentdocumentary.com/

justbill5789
07-22-2011, 7:53 AM
Outstanding! I knew if I went to this forum I would get a plethora of information. I think between the websites, books and forums, I should be busy educating myself. I hope by starting this thread that others will take advantage of the information and engage in understanding our 2A rights. I was on the sidelines just last week and now I want to learn. I may not be able to lead the fight but I would like to at least intelligently defend my position the next time someone has an asinine anti-gun argument.
I appreciate the effort that everyone took in providing the information and for taking time out to help others who want to learn. Thanks!

Barkoff
07-22-2011, 8:42 AM
I can recommend a cheap read off of Amazon, "A Nation Of Cowards" is a pretty good reference to start. Read the reviews.

http://www.amazon.com/Nation-Cowards-Jeff-Snyder/dp/1888118083/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311352929&sr=8-1

Southwest Chuck
07-24-2011, 10:01 AM
Here is a good site/article that gives a beginner a good perspective...
http://actionamerica.org/guns/guns1.shtml

loose_electron
07-24-2011, 11:37 AM
Having a good set of factual independent sources to deal with the many "talking points" out there is a good thing.

Keep in mind - this is also a struggle of culture as well. Litigation paths are ongoing, but offer to take people shooting and teach them about guns in a non-threatening non-confrontational way.

Maybe we should all take a friend, journalist or politician to the range!
Seriously!
If 80% of the state were gun owners, it would not be an issue would it?

Start with
http://www.guncite.com/
http://www.saf.org/default.asp?p=gunrights_faq
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html

To hone and sharpen your arguments you have to practice against anti-gunners in a target-rich environment. The best place I have found for that is http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/gun-control They frequently have gun control-related articles as well as blog posts by the Brady Campaign's Paul Helmke and Dennis Henigan, and VPC's Josh Sugarmann. The articles generate thousands of comments, mostly from gun-haters. It is a good place to practice your debating skills. There is a group of us there who are pro-RKBA, and while heavily outnumbered we easily defeat the antis because the anti-gunners' arguments are based on emotion, misinformation, and just sheer ignorance. Register there and then join the debates, it's fun.

I have a whole list of bookmarked links so whenever I want to back up my claims or shoot down theirs I have the evidence.

Whenever they say the Second Amendment applies only to "a well-regulated militia" I give them



When they say something like "the Second Amendment says you can have a single-shot musket, not an Uzi" I tell them the Supreme Court said their argument borders on the frivolous:



When they whine about the "gun show loophole" I point out that only 0.7% of criminals obtained their guns at a gun show http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf

When they say assault weapons should be banned I point out that a study commissioned by the Dept. of Justice found that the 1994-2004 ban had almost no effect:



and that more people are murdered each year with hands, fists, and feet than with all types of rifles, including "assault rifles" http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_08.html

and so on. It really is fun to coolly and calmly pick them apart with Supreme Court decisions, facts, and statistics.

Milsurp Collector
07-24-2011, 8:43 PM
Latest anti-gun thread at Huffington Post, more than 2,800 comments in 8 hours http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/24/shootings-this-weekend_n_908140.html It's a good opportunity to debate anti-gunners and clear up misinformation for those interested, like this:

But violent crimes are on the increase since the repeal of the Assault Weapons ban.False.

Total US violent crime rate by year (per 100,000):

2004 --- 3,977.3
2005 --- 3,900.5
2006 --- 3,808.1
2007 --- 3,730.4
2008 --- 3,669.0
2009 --- 3,465.5

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

A study of the effectiveness of the 1994-2004 "assault weapon" ban commissioned by the US Dept. of Justice found that it had virtually no effect on violent crime:

"AWs were used in only a small fraction of gun crimes prior to the ban: about 2% according to most studies and no more than 8%. Most of the AWs used in crime are assault pistols rather than assault rifles."

"Should it be renewed, the banís effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement. AWs were rarely used in gun crimes even before the ban."

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/jerrylee/research/aw_exec2004.pdf

I find it really useful to see just how full of misinformation the anti side is and why they justify more gun control laws.

CDFingers
07-25-2011, 5:00 AM
A good introduction to 2A concepts is to read both Heller and McDonald and to read the notes found in the text. The notes are quite instructive as regards the history of various laws about firearms.

It takes time, but the understanding is worth the investment.

CDFingers

notme92069
07-25-2011, 5:45 AM
This is great information. Should this be a sticky?

vantec08
07-25-2011, 7:10 AM
It started for me with some information the NRA used to publish about "gun facts" and "constitution facts" that listed, at that time, some important case law.

shermanatortank
07-25-2011, 11:10 PM
I found this episode of "BullS***" by Penn and Teller to be pretty informative on the main arguments for and against gun control and ultimately proves that Gun Control is indeed BS. It isn't very legally in-depth but brings up pretty good points of interest that can aid you when arguing an anti gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCXtfR0_roE (this is the first of several parts broken up in different vids on youtube)

CalBear
07-25-2011, 11:22 PM
The Founder's Second Amendment by Steve Holbrook.

http://www.amazon.com/Founders-Second-Amendment-Origins-Right/dp/1566637929/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311664884&sr=1-1

Read the Heller / McDonald rulings.

safewaysecurity
07-25-2011, 11:24 PM
Lots and lots and lots of research... Google is your friend.