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bwiese
07-21-2011, 12:33 PM
The rumor mill trickling down to me indicates some folks are somehow thinking SBR (short-barreled rifle) stuff can be OK. [SBRs are those rifles under 16" bbl/ under 26" overall length.] Somehow they think they are just matters of CA AW law.... and these people think they can go to NV or AZ, assemble an SBR there, and dismantle it before returinng to CA.

Some of this problem is really caused by the 30" length issue specified in CA AW law - making these folks thinking they can "avoid just that situation" and not realizing there's a whole 'nuther body of applicable laws outside the CA AW sphere.

SBRs are generally illegal except if NFA registered (unlikely for newer guns in CA regardless of AW matters). Separate SBR permits are needed to be CA legal. CA SBR laws are COMPLETELY SEPARATE from CA AW laws - even if you're clean on AW matters you can be popped Federally and/or in CA for SBR laws.

'Constructive possession' of SBRs indeed exists for SBRs, especially under CA law. These are not fixable wobblers, either. So:


Do NOT get 'cute' and slip a buttstock on your AR pistol buffer tube.
Do NOT have shorty upper(s) unless you own legit pistol lower(s).
Do NOT own a buttstock if you only have an AR pistol but no AR rifle.
Just because you go out of CA, you can't SBR your rifle. Feds don't like this.
Remember due to Rooney that min. overall length of a rifle WITHIN CALIFORNIA is measured with any folding/collapsible stock CLOSED, and not open. [This is more strict than the Federal standard which allows the overall length to be measure with stock open, such that some sub-26" rifles when folded up are still Federally legal.]

tgriffin
07-21-2011, 12:51 PM
:no::kest: *sigh*

people never cease to amaze me.

Librarian
07-21-2011, 12:59 PM
Added a wiki page with substantially this content -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Short-barreled_Rifles

Thanks, Bill.

Connor P Price
07-21-2011, 1:01 PM
Don't be stupid!

liketoshoot
07-21-2011, 1:13 PM
everyone trys now and then to be cool, how about trying to be legal and have fun doing it.

pointedstick
07-21-2011, 1:45 PM
:no::kest: *sigh*

people never cease to amaze me.

I dunno, this stuff may seem obvious if you're an expert who spends lots of time reading court opinions and learning about the CA PC on Calguns, but most people don't do these things. I mean, how much do you know about the building codes that govern permissible and legal alterations to your house? What gauge wire can you do electrical work with? How many square feet of deck require a permit? How many inches can exist between railing posts? What walls are you required to insulate, and with what materials? How low of an R-value is permissible? Don't forget that they can order you to destroy your house at your own expense if you mess up!

Most of us Calgunners probably know as much about the restrictive building codes that invisibly affect our lives as much as the average gun owner knows about the esoteric minutiae of interstate gun laws that regulate possession of pieces of metal and plastic. Blaming people for not knowing the details of these kinds of laws seems a little unfair; it may be your duty to know the law, but if the laws are ridiculous, arbitrary, discriminatory, and anti-liberty, then the real fault lies with the numbskulls who wrote them, not the honest people who accidentally break them. Educate, yes, but don't hold yourself above those who need the education.

soopafly
07-21-2011, 1:56 PM
...if the laws are ridiculous, arbitrary, discriminatory, and anti-liberty...
I think the word you are looking for is "Byzantine";)

safewaysecurity
07-21-2011, 2:10 PM
I didn't know about the constructive possession SBR thing.

proclone1
07-21-2011, 2:25 PM
I dunno, this stuff may seem obvious if you're an expert who spends lots of time reading court opinions and learning about the CA PC on Calguns, but most people don't do these things. I mean, how much do you know about the building codes that govern permissible and legal alterations to your house? What gauge wire can you do electrical work with? How many square feet of deck require a permit? How many inches can exist between railing posts? What walls are you required to insulate, and with what materials? How low of an R-value is permissible? Don't forget that they can order you to destroy your house at your own expense if you mess up!

Most of us Calgunners probably know as much about the restrictive building codes that invisibly affect our lives as much as the average gun owner knows about the esoteric minutiae of interstate gun laws that regulate possession of pieces of metal and plastic. Blaming people for not knowing the details of these kinds of laws seems a little unfair; it may be your duty to know the law, but if the laws are ridiculous, arbitrary, discriminatory, and anti-liberty, then the real fault lies with the numbskulls who wrote them, not the honest people who accidentally break them. Educate, yes, but don't hold yourself above those who need the education.


I really liked this post and agree with it! I also want to say that whenever I go to a gun store that sells AR/AK/Sig556/etc Pistols and someone's checking them out, half of the time the store employee is shaking his head explaining "no, you cannot add a buttstock" after the presumptuous gun-buyer asks "how much to add a buttstock to this? I mean gee, I won't be able to aim very well with this if I can't bring it to my shoulder"

I have a huge suspicion that the Pistol --> SBR issue (ie the fact that it's so easy to create a very-illegal weapon just by adding a plastic stock to one of the rifle-caliber pistols) is quite a vulnerability to our gun rights if enough people ignorantly/willfully/criminally commit such a sin.

aklover_91
07-21-2011, 2:31 PM
I really liked this post and agree with it! I also want to say that whenever I go to a gun store that sells AR/AK/Sig556/etc Pistols and someone's checking them out, half of the time the store employee is shaking his head explaining "no, you cannot add a buttstock" after the presumptuous gun-buyer asks "how much to add a buttstock to this? I mean gee, I won't be able to aim very well with this if I can't bring it to my shoulder"

I have a huge suspicion that the Pistol --> SBR issue (ie the fact that it's so easy to create a very-illegal weapon just by adding a plastic stock to one of the rifle-caliber pistols) is quite a vulnerability to our gun rights if enough people ignorantly/willfully/criminally commit such a sin.

NFA was originally going to include handguns, so SBR/SBS was put in as a way to discourage people from making handguns from longarms.

To get it passed they had to pull pistols from the bill, but neglected to clean up the SBR/SBS business. That's the only reason it's there, and it's as arbitrary as it gets.

Bhobbs
07-21-2011, 2:33 PM
I didn't know about the constructive possession SBR thing.

That is the biggest issue with gun laws. There are so many laws that are completely different and cover the same thing, that no sane person can know all of them.

proclone1
07-21-2011, 2:40 PM
NFA was originally going to include handguns, so SBR/SBS was put in as a way to discourage people from making handguns from longarms.

To get it passed they had to pull pistols from the bill, but neglected to clean up the SBR/SBS business. That's the only reason it's there, and it's as arbitrary as it gets.

and all because some a***ole had a hardon for jodie foster??? :(
I hope they never let that idiot out.

Bhobbs
07-21-2011, 2:44 PM
and all because some a***ole had a hardon for jodie foster??? :(
I hope they never let that idiot out.

Wait, what? NFA was in 1934. What does Jodie Foster have to do with it?

wash
07-21-2011, 2:55 PM
The funny thing is if SBR modern ARs were legal in CA and someone asked how much for a stock, there would be an answer of $200.00 tax plus parts, labor and waiting for the NFA forms to go through.

People who knew it was possible would either do that or leave it a pistol if they don't want the bother.

When the answer is "no way", some people will just ignore that.

paul0660
07-21-2011, 2:55 PM
Wait, what? NFA was in 1934. What does Jodie Foster have to do with it?

Must be another Jodie.

btw, how must a muzzle brake be attached? Red locktite ok as some think, soldered, pinned, welded?

pointedstick
07-21-2011, 3:05 PM
Wait, what? NFA was in 1934. What does Jodie Foster have to do with it?

I think he's talking about the attempted Reagan assassination.

CCWFacts
07-21-2011, 3:11 PM
Anyone going into the NFA-zone needs to be super-well-informed about ALL levels of the law: state and Federal (and maybe local?). NFA-anything is not for the casual buyer, and as BW says, the penalties are EXTREME and they are not wobblers and NFA problems can all be charged Federally. Federal felonies are not wobblers, Federal time is real time (must serve 85% of sentence) and (AFAIK) the only way today to get a Federal felony removed from one's record is a presidential pardon, which is about as likely as winning the lottery.

proclone1
07-21-2011, 3:14 PM
I think he's talking about the attempted Reagan assassination.

Correct, poor tongue-in-cheek I apologize lol. But seriously, it was the birth of the Brady Bunch, correct? I unfortunately read up on history after posting, noting that Brady was responsible for the already-sunsetted Fed AWB.

Now I need to do a complete self-education on the NFA! (seriously, what was everyone's problem back in 1934, they had bigger things to worry about.. just like today)

BigDogatPlay
07-21-2011, 3:16 PM
and all because some a***ole had a hardon for jodie foster??? :(
I hope they never let that idiot out.

Little late I am afraid. John Hinckley is out on his own, unsupervised, a number of times a month. Has been for a few years now. Even has a driver's license.

And the laws in question far pre-date the attempt on President Reagan.

NFA = 1934

GCA = 1968

Brady Bill / Fed AWB = 1993

NFA was passed, in large measure, on the fear of the wave of gangsterism that permeated the late 1920's and early 1930's. That was due, in no small measure, to the failed progressive experiments that gave us Prohibition and the Great Depression.

sargenv
07-21-2011, 3:21 PM
The reason for the NFA was pretty much also Chicago (or at least criminal) based... the Prohibition era Gangsters liked the Thompson Sub-machine gun (Tommy gun).. and at that time they were outclassing the Police of the time who mostly had 38 cal revolvers or 1911's.

dfletcher
07-21-2011, 3:29 PM
A $200.00 stamp tax in 1934, adjusted for inflation, would cost $3221.00 in 2011. I'm kind of wondering why none of the antigun groups have floated an increase.

paul0660
07-21-2011, 3:32 PM
Don't forget that they can order you to destroy your house at your own expense if you mess up!

Must be a new rule. Can they make you do it right if they figure out you did it wrong? Yes.

walmart_ar15
07-21-2011, 3:34 PM
Anyone going into the NFA-zone needs to be super-well-informed about ALL levels of the law: state and Federal (and maybe local?). NFA-anything is not for the casual buyer, and as BW says, the penalties are EXTREME and they are not wobblers and NFA problems can all be charged Federally. Federal felonies are not wobblers, Federal time is real time (must serve 85% of sentence) and (AFAIK) the only way today to get a Federal felony removed from one's record is a presidential pardon, which is about as likely as winning the lottery.

Wonder what other Fed tax offense will equal to NFA penalties for failing to pay a $200 transfer tax? Having a fed felony charge for one's record removes a person's 2A rights for life. Feel a bit of 8th Amendment being violated here :rolleyes:

Vandal.
07-21-2011, 3:39 PM
30 inches at the most smallest configuation being able to fire... (if im wrong about that one please correct me)


from ATF site ( http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html )
Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.

14.5 inch barrels with a permanently installed muzzle device to meet the ATF 16 inch barrel rule for non-NFA use

aklover_91
07-21-2011, 3:44 PM
30 inches at the most smallest configuation being able to fire... (if im wrong about that one please correct me)


from ATF site ( http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html )
Installation of a barrel greater than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS) will remove the firearm from the purview of the NFA provided the registrant does not maintain control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.

14.5 inch barrels with a permanently installed muzzle device to meet the ATF 16 inch barrel rule for non-NFA use

30" is California, federally I believe minimum OAL is 26", with a minimum barrel length of 16" for rifles and 18" for shotguns.

Vandal.
07-21-2011, 3:49 PM
30" is California, federally I believe minimum OAL is 26", with a minimum barrel length of 16" for rifles and 18" for shotguns.

thank you, i knew i was missing something.. :D

goober
07-21-2011, 4:00 PM
Correct, poor tongue-in-cheek I apologize lol. But seriously, it was the birth of the Brady Bunch, correct? I unfortunately read up on history after posting, noting that Brady was responsible for the already-sunsetted Fed AWB.

Now I need to do a complete self-education on the NFA! (seriously, what was everyone's problem back in 1934, they had bigger things to worry about.. just like today)

LOL... i thought for a sec you confused "JFA" and "NFA" :p

JFA = "Jodie Foster's Army", a hardcore band in the 80's that took their name from the Reagan assassination attempt weirdness.

NFA = National Firearms Act, 1934

pointedstick
07-21-2011, 4:26 PM
Must be a new rule. Can they make you do it right if they figure out you did it wrong? Yes.

What if it can't be "done right" according to the code's definition of right? What if you build a house that's perfectly structurally sound and meets your needs and desires, but doesn't meet code due to its non-sanctioned construction method (adobe, earthbag, cob, a yurt, a shipping container, etc), and you don't have the political clout or money to grease the wheels and get an exception? Darn right they're gonna make you tear it down at your own expense. And if you resist, they might just arrest you and ruin your life in the process, too. Here's a recent example of just that happening, as reported by the Huffington Post, no less: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/08/alan-kimble-fahey----buil_n_872996.html

Moreover, is this really who we are as a nation? If the government can tell us how, when, and where we can and cannot build our own homes, force us to change the design or hire other people to do parts of the work, destroy or confiscate them at will (see Kelo vs New London), and break in during the dead of night with "no-knock raids", is this compatible with the notion of a free society? If our own homes are no longer sacrosanct, are we still a free people? Didn't the government tell us that all of this stuff was necessary to keep us safe? And now that it's all done, are we really safe after all?

carsonwales
07-21-2011, 4:43 PM
Would owning a short barrel be constructive possession?

In other words if you had a stand alone barrel not made up into an upper be considered constructive possession?

Curious

Carson

6172crew
07-21-2011, 4:56 PM
Yes, if you own a Uzi carbine and have a pistol/smg barrel without the stamp you can get into trouble.

I own a nfa Uzi bolt, the bolt is the Machine gun and the short barrel is only allowed on the carbine host while I have the bolt in it. Barrel comes off when cleaning so I'm not in possession of a short barreled rifle.

Do your homework on NFA and you will find some wacky rules, but they are easier to understand than our rules here in CA.

oldrifle
07-21-2011, 6:42 PM
Yeah, be careful... having an AR pistol makes me nervous enough. Having a SBR is just asking for a boatload of trouble.

cdtx2001
07-21-2011, 6:46 PM
Is it OK if I were to own an AR pistol upper if it is my intent to obtain a pistol lower in the near future and don't yet have one in my possession and have plenty of standard ARs?

oldrifle
07-21-2011, 7:03 PM
Is it OK if I were to own an AR pistol upper if it is my intent to obtain a pistol lower in the near future and don't yet have one in my possession and have plenty of standard ARs?

Couldn't this result in constructive possession charges?

pointedstick
07-21-2011, 7:23 PM
Couldn't this result in constructive possession charges?

Right. Because at that point, you have no legal way of turning the shorty upper into a legal weapon, but a way of turning it into an illegal weapon. You'd need to buy the pistol lower first.

Cokebottle
07-21-2011, 7:44 PM
If you do not currently own or are not in possession of ANY AR-pattern lowers, then a short barreled upper is just parts.

The issue is owning a "rifle" (which can be just the lower or a complete gun) and owning a shorty upper that will operate on it.


And this is not limited to SBS/SBR. AOW is also an issue.
Example... you are planning an AR build. You currently have no AR lowers, but you have a couple of Glocks, XDs, or other railed handgun.
Calgunner offers a "can't say no" deal on a group buy for some LaRue VFGs.
You buy one.

You are now in constructive possession of an AOW because the VFG can be mounted on your handgun, and you have no other legal use for the VFG ("paperweight" doesn't count).


Be careful out there people.

TKM
07-21-2011, 7:58 PM
Is it OK if I were to own an AR pistol upper if it is my intent to obtain a pistol lower in the near future and don't yet have one in my possession and have plenty of standard ARs?

No.

Bad felon.

Do not pass go.

You get the idea.

chris
07-21-2011, 9:42 PM
Must be another Jodie.

btw, how must a muzzle brake be attached? Red locktite ok as some think, soldered, pinned, welded?

pin and welded in more acceptable to ATF. silver solder is allowed but it sometimes fails the common tools test. AR15barrels pin and welds muzzle brakes or flash supressors if legal for your firearm. he prefers the pin and weld method as it pretty much jacks up the barrel if you attempt to remove it with a tool. this also satifies the 16" barrel minimum for the feds and CA law. it is considered a permanent attachment.

locosway
07-22-2011, 12:51 AM
pin and welded in more acceptable to ATF. silver solder is allowed but it sometimes fails the common tools test. AR15barrels pin and welds muzzle brakes or flash supressors if legal for your firearm. he prefers the pin and weld method as it pretty much jacks up the barrel if you attempt to remove it with a tool. this also satifies the 16" barrel minimum for the feds and CA law. it is considered a permanent attachment.

Yes, assuming it's a 14.5" barrel and the brake/comp/hider makes the barrel 16" overall. However, on a 16" and longer barrel there is no requirement to permanently attach the muzzle device.

kermitz
07-22-2011, 1:44 AM
Thank you for the reminder. Sometimes the laws can be hard to interpret and you can cross that fine line from legal to illegal without even knowing it. I seriously hope that nobody knowingly made or thought about making an SBR. When it comes to gun laws, the government doesn't fool around. Your life will be over as you know it.

Kharn
07-22-2011, 4:02 AM
When I was first getting into the NFA game, I spent a lot more time reading all of the applicable laws, the NFA handbook, etc, than I did even thinking about what I wanted to build/buy.

socal2310
07-22-2011, 8:05 AM
and all because some a***ole had a hardon for jodie foster??? :(
I hope they never let that idiot out.

You're thinking of the Brady bill (for those of you who are confused, John Hinckley Jr. attempted to assassinate Reagan in order to impress Jodie Foster).

The NFA was another reactionary bill but with a totally different target: violent gangsters who came to power during prohibition and (ironic considering today's political climate) to deprive communists of the tools necessary for a successful revolution. Of course, today's bogeymen are terrorists / Mexican cartels (a la Tom Clancy) fueled by our drug policy. Domestic threat plus outside enemy both funded by a black market that our policies created.

I really wish Herman Goering were wrong.

Ryan

nicki
07-22-2011, 1:29 PM
The original 1934 NFA proposal included HANDGUNS, but HANDGUNS were dropped from it as it made its way through Congress.

When someone understands that, then including the SBS and SBR in the NFA actually makes sense because if handguns were banned and unavailable, people would make cut down arms that were available to make "Concealable Arms".

The NFA was a end run around the 2nd amendment by using the "TAX SYSTEM" to tax guns out of existence.

Of course after 1939 and the Miller case, the government and the lower federal courts from then on assumed that the 2nd amendment was some kind of "collective right" belonging to the state.

"Heller and MacDonald" have changed things and right now litigation is going through the courts so we shall see what the future holds.

Guns rights of course are why most of us are here, but the Federal gun laws exist because of broader issues that effect not only our gun rights, but other rights as well, as such, those other rights that are effected are the ones where we can reach out to other groups to build alliances.

Those other rights also are the ones we can reach out to so that we can cut support for our opponents.

In my view the "Taxing Authority" of the government should be used ONLY for legitimate government services.

The power to "Tax" is the power to "Destroy" and when "Taxes" are used for "other purposes", they "destroy" our rights. Often the most destructive taxes come in under the "best of intentions".

The expansion of Federal power through the misinterpretation of the "Commerce Clause" is something that must be fixed.

Most Americans never really give much thought about this because it is not taught in the "government run schools".

IMHO, the real intent of the "Commerce Clause" was to "encourage free commerce" between the "states", not give the Federal government unlimited control over our lives.

In order to fix what needs to be fixed we either need a Supreme court who will follow the Constitution, a Congress and state governments that will amend the constitution or a PEOPLE who will demand fixes and will do whatever is necessary to make it happen.

Nicki

chris
07-22-2011, 4:50 PM
Yes, assuming it's a 14.5" barrel and the brake/comp/hider makes the barrel 16" overall. However, on a 16" and longer barrel there is no requirement to permanently attach the muzzle device.

i'am refering to having a 14.5" barrel as what i posted is a legal way to have it. of course this does not apply to 16" barrel. it is directed for those that want a 14.5 barrel look but still be legal by pin and welding a brake, or flash surpressor. the gunsmith that does it can recomend the right one for it for you to be legal.

walmart_ar15
07-22-2011, 7:17 PM
Wonder how CA SBR law view the T/C handgun with the rifle kit :confused:

TKM
07-22-2011, 8:04 PM
Wonder how CA SBR law view the T/C handgun with the rifle kit :confused:

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239

walmart_ar15
07-22-2011, 9:47 PM
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239

Thus, the sale, possession, and use of the Contender or Encore pistol and carbine as described are fully in accord with federal law. The use of these products in all of the States is likewise lawful, except that certain restrictions may apply in California.

No much help for CA. But the site's ATF letter may hint that a "firearm" started its life as a pistol may be allowed to transform between pistol to rifle then back to pistol again. The letter seems to emphsize the orgin status and specifically state a "factory shipped" rifle to pistol is NFA.

CA SBR text (12020) includes

(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person

where as NFA SBR does not. Question is does the Supreme Court Ruling on T/C trumps CA SBR reg.?