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View Full Version : CCW - Duty to Inform and Reciprocity


MountainMike
07-21-2011, 10:43 AM
The story about the Ohio resident who was contacted by LEOs got me thinking. Specifically, Ohio's duty to inform statute. Suppose a California resident has a Florida CCW. Florida and Ohio share reciprocity so let's also suppose the hypothetical California resident is visiting Ohio. As I understand it the duty to inform is conditional on Ohio's issuance of a permit. Which laws apply? Can an Ohio LEO revoke a permit issued by another state?

Please keep the discussion to the topics raised. I do not want this to turn into a fourth thread about the big bad cop.

Flintlock Tom
07-21-2011, 10:57 AM
That's a good question and IANAL, but I would think that the CCWer would have to abide by the laws of the state they are in.
If Ohio law says that a person with a CCW, and carrying, is contacted by police must inform then I believe that would apply no matter what state issued.

Because this seems reasonable to me...it's probably wrong.

:rolleyes:

BigDogatPlay
07-21-2011, 11:03 AM
It's incumbent upon the law abiding citizen licensed to carry concealed to know the protocols and laws in any state they visit where they intend to exercise their license under reciprocity.

Know the rules, stay out of trouble. Color me simple, but that seems to be the common sense straight of it.

ldsnet
07-21-2011, 11:05 AM
I spend a lot of time on the road, I have a binder of State laws for states I travel through so I know what the various requirements are as I cross the imaginary lines.

NO Ohio can NOT revoke a FL permit; BUT if they press charges in Ohio they CAN notify FL of the action then FL may revoke their permit.

In all the years of reading the news forums of various states, IMHO this actually happening is extremely rare.

(I am not a lawyer, I do not play a lawyer on TV, and I did not sleep in a Holiday Inn last night. Your mileage may vary)

unusedusername
07-21-2011, 11:09 AM
Can an Ohio LEO revoke a permit issued by another state?

I'm not sure about the rest here, but I can comment on this.

An out of state LEO does not have the power to revoke a permit issued by the state of CA because the statute that created these permits does not give them that power. This probably won't help in reality though...

Imagine that your local sheriff gets a call from some out of state agency requesting that they pull your CCW permit. Now further imagine that the sheriff gets this request in writing and the sheriff is one of our friendly anti-gunners that really doesn't want the serfs carrying in the first place. I would imagine that the permit would get pulled first and questions would be asked after the fact.

Decoligny
07-21-2011, 11:59 AM
I'm not sure about the rest here, but I can comment on this.

An out of state LEO does not have the power to revoke a permit issued by the state of CA because the statute that created these permits does not give them that power. This probably won't help in reality though...

Imagine that your local sheriff gets a call from some out of state agency requesting that they pull your CCW permit. Now further imagine that the sheriff gets this request in writing and the sheriff is one of our friendly anti-gunners that really doesn't want the serfs carrying in the first place. I would imagine that the permit would get pulled first and questions would be asked after the fact.

Seeing as Ohio does not even recognize the CCW issued by CA, there is no arguing that they can't revoke a CA CCW. :rolleyes:
If you are carrying in Ohio using a CA CCW you have bigger problems than not immediately informing the LEO.

They can't revoke an AZ CCW either, for the CA resident who can carry in Ohio with it. Or a FL CCW, or a UT CCW.

dantodd
07-21-2011, 12:01 PM
I spend a lot of time on the road, I have a binder of State laws for states I travel through so I know what the various requirements are as I cross the imaginary lines.

I believe that this would constitute and undue burden of a fundamental right in the long run. For now it is a good practice.

jasilva
07-21-2011, 12:15 PM
Seeing as Ohio does not even recognize the CCW issued by CA, there is no arguing that they can't revoke a CA CCW. :rolleyes:
If you are carrying in Ohio using a CA CCW you have bigger problems than not immediately informing the LEO.

They can't revoke an AZ CCW either, for the CA resident who can carry in Ohio with it. Or a FL CCW, or a UT CCW.

They can't revoke it but, AZ, FL, UT and CA definitely have a requirement to obey the CCW laws of the state your carrying in even if it's NOT the issuing state. So if you get busted violating the laws of the state your in you will be prosecuted there and I'm quite sure that state will notify your issuing state so you can be revoked.

BlindRacer
07-21-2011, 12:53 PM
Current laws aside, would duty to inform even be constitutional? Seems like there are 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th issues with it.

If I'm legally carrying, and have committed no other crime, how then can I be charged with a crime for doing what is protected by the constitution?

I think with national reciprocity on the horizon, this will have to come up in the courts eventually.

Uriah02
07-21-2011, 1:23 PM
I know there are strong anti-LEO sentiments with some members here but I find it part of common sense/courtesy to inform an inquiring officer if I have a weapon handy...

Glock22Fan
07-21-2011, 1:32 PM
I play it safe and whatever state I am in (assuming I am carrying), I pass my CCW over with my CDL.

I've been told by more than one cop that, required or not, they feel much happier that way.

Maybe I don't need to, but I don't feel strongly about asserting my "rights" in the particular case. Now, if he or she then wants to search the car, that's another story altogether.

Ubermcoupe
07-21-2011, 3:41 PM
It's incumbent upon the law abiding citizen licensed to carry concealed to know the protocols and laws in any state they visit where they intend to exercise their license under reciprocity.


Yes!

fairfaxjim
07-22-2011, 10:59 AM
It's incumbent upon the law abiding citizen licensed to carry concealed to know and abide by the protocols and laws in any state they visit where they intend to exercise their license under reciprocity.

Know the rules, stay out of trouble. Color me simple, but that seems to be the common sense straight of it.

You can definitely get busted if you don't! As for informing an LEO that you are carrying - I personally think that it is best to do so. If you are dealing with an officer that is totally paranoid about contact with an armed person and would violate your right to carry with a CCW, he is going to jack you around either way and at least if you inform him at the onset, his freak-out level will be somewhat lower than if he finds it on you during the contact. If I'm going to get treated improperly, I would much rather that happen before he is totally freaked.

J.D.Allen
07-22-2011, 2:31 PM
Remember that CCW'er got ARRESTED for not informing the cop. Seems to me that would be a greater concern than having your OOS CCW pulled. ALways follow the law as written WERE YOU ARE.

ZombieTactics
07-22-2011, 2:39 PM
I can't think of a good reason NOT to inform an LEO that you are carrying and immediately presenting your CCW permit.

I can't say the opposite. An officer noticing a gun which is inadvertently printing could result in less than healthy LEO contact.

Be the good guy ... 'nuf said.

MountainMike
07-22-2011, 5:28 PM
Remember that CCW'er got ARRESTED for not informing the cop. Seems to me that would be a greater concern than having your OOS CCW pulled. ALways follow the law as written WERE YOU ARE.

All of this is purely academic on my part. The question that came to mind was is Ohio's duty to inform part of the penal code or part of the contract Ohio residents agree too when they sign for the permit. If the latter is true than it would stand to reason an out of state permit holder does not share that responsibility if the issuing state does not have that requirement. It is probably that within the text of a CCW permit holders agree to abide by all rules and regulations in other states. I do not hold any carry permits nor do I travel out of the state with any regularity so I cannot speak intelligently to that affect.

As mentioned earlier in the thread firearm ownership demands a higher level of responsibility but that is not the issue here. A corollary to the hypothetical situation purposed would be an UOC activist refusing to provide ID. While they are not legally required to produce identification it would be common sense to show it and end the encounter quickly.

CHS
07-22-2011, 6:06 PM
I can't think of a good reason NOT to inform an LEO that you are carrying and immediately presenting your CCW permit.


I agree that it's probably a good idea to politely and TACTFULLY inform an officer that you are a CCW holder and are in fact carrying out of courtesy more than anything, however I don't see how the duty-to-inform law could possibly withstand any constitutional scrutiny.

You're engaged in an act protected by the 2A, and there are of course very real issues with Miranda (You have the RIGHT to remain silent) and the 5thA.

Having the RIGHT to remain silent while exercising another RIGHT really SHOULD be protected.

dantodd
07-22-2011, 6:37 PM
I guess I have a more fertile imagination than ZombieTactics. I can imagine many ways in which notifying a police officer that you are carrying could go bad.

NoJoke
07-22-2011, 7:43 PM
Someone needs to put together an all inclusive Droid App. How easy would that make all this complexity?