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View Full Version : Can someone explain OLL's to a non-CA dealer?


prebans
01-05-2007, 4:22 PM
Hello!

I would like to offer some of these "off list lowers" to CalGunners. However, I'm not exactly how the law works and what is required to make this 100% legal. Can someone help me understand California law?

1. "Off list" implies that a list of some type exists. My assumption is that this is a list of lowers Californians CAN'T own. Can someone please direct me to this list?

2. Do I have to alter the lower in any way before sending it to California? For example, will I have to pin or permanently attach a 10-round mag into the lower?

3. Should I be sure to do anything specific (or be sure NOT to do some things) with the lower? (For example, I assume that I should not send lowers with pistol grips or folding/collapsing stocks attached.)

Thank you for your patience with me. :)

Sincerely,

Mike

SemiAutoSam
01-05-2007, 4:26 PM
Mike have a read here.

This should explain 99% of it.


http://calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm

krim
01-05-2007, 4:26 PM
the Kasler list can be found here (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/kaslist.pdf)

6172crew
01-05-2007, 4:27 PM
Hi Mike, thanks for asking.

1. Yes the Kasler list has a few AR15 lowers named but if it isnt on the list its good to go.

2. If the lower is stripped then its good to go but if its complete then Id removed pistol grip and mag catch and folding stock to be sure you good to go.

3. see 2.:)

bwiese
01-05-2007, 4:27 PM
I would like to offer some of these "off list lowers" to CalGunners. However, I'm not exactly how the law works and what is required to make this 100% legal. Can someone help me understand California law?

Sure. I'm not a lawyer, but we're not in jail, either.

You can check the FAQ, etc. on this website's homepage for more info.


1. "Off list" implies that a list of some type exists. My assumption is that this is a list of lowers Californians CAN'T own. Can someone please direct me to this list?

Sure, it's the 'Kasler list' of identified AR/AK 'series' members. The original Colt AR15 is on the Roberti-Roos list). It's California Code of Regulation, Title 11, sec. 5499 (formerly 979.11).

It's at: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter40.pdf

If it's not banned by exact make/model, it's good to go.

Thus, a Colt AR15 or a Bushmaster XM15 are banned & illegal.

However, a Colt XM15 or a Bushmaster AR15 would be perfectly legal.


2. Do I have to alter the lower in any way before sending it to California? For example, will I have to pin or permanently attach a 10-round mag into the lower?

No. Just send in stripped lowers. Californians will build them into compliant rifles.

(Briefly: if it has an open magwell, it can't have 'evil features', and people run these gripless or with special non-pistol grips.
If it has a 10rd or less fixed nondetachable magazine, it can have evil features.)


3. Should I be sure to do anything specific (or be sure NOT to do some things) with the lower? (For example, I assume that I should not send lowers with pistol grips or folding/collapsing stocks attached.)

Yup, that's easiest for all parties concerned.


Thank you for your patience with me. :)


No worries, thanks for helping out in the fight!

gn3hz3ku1*
01-05-2007, 7:46 PM
wow thanks for volunteering! do you have a website? we always follow the laws but some dealers can not understand out green is the same as others..
if someone wont sell us a OLL, then ill go elsewhere for all the other parts too!

prebans
01-05-2007, 8:43 PM
wow thanks for volunteering! do you have a website? we always follow the laws but some dealers can not understand out green is the same as others..
if someone wont sell us a OLL, then ill go elsewhere for all the other parts too!

No problem. If y'all can legally have it, then it'll be my pleasure to provide it. Now that I know what's what, I'm just trying to decide which lower(s) to offer.

Unfortunately, I do not have a website. I'm just a small guy out of a house in rural Arizona. :)

Mike

hoffmang
01-05-2007, 9:21 PM
Mike,

Since you don't have a website, you should post here in the Firearms forsale section once you decide which stripped lowers you'll be offering.

You've certainly met the "participate in the forum" criteria. Thanks for supporting us all!

-Gene

gn3hz3ku1*
01-06-2007, 11:47 AM
No problem. If y'all can legally have it, then it'll be my pleasure to provide it. Now that I know what's what, I'm just trying to decide which lower(s) to offer.

Unfortunately, I do not have a website. I'm just a small guy out of a house in rural Arizona. :)

Mike

stag should be on the top of your list... many people go with that

or you can sell calguners guns that you have "taken" apart to meet CA laws before you ship it to us.. IE remove grips and other evil features

thedrickel
01-06-2007, 12:05 PM
or you can sell calguners guns that you have "taken" apart to meet CA laws before you ship it to us.. IE remove grips and other evil features

Yep this is what I would do. Get AKs from century for 300, remove pistol grip, sell to us for 400. Easy money.

hoffmang
01-06-2007, 12:18 PM
prebans,

We can also show you how to buy the Monsterman Grip or various of the fixed magazine kits, install them, and sell fully built rifles for a premium.

-Gene

Hopi
01-06-2007, 12:19 PM
Yep this is what I would do. Get AKs from century for 300, remove pistol grip, sell to us for 400. Easy money.

I would bet money that those century guns come pretty cheap sometimes (i.e. romanians at sub $250 dealer price). They would be very easy to buy in bulk and turn around quickly to california at a nice profit. Although, after transfer and dros, $400 retail might be a bit much for a century rommy gun now that the floodgates have opened so to speak. The market has many channels now and many more will open, so i'd be wary of pricing myself outta the market. This is what is happening with the Atlantic firearms "ca-legal" fixed mag AK and Evan's Assault weapons...errr modified ca-legal colt ar-15 rifles.

prebans
01-10-2007, 2:10 PM
Hmm. I'm going to have to mull all of this over. I am in the process of moving about 2,000 miles from here and have to be careful-- I'm trying to decrease inventory for the move, not increase it! :)

There'll be at least one OLL sale offered, but I don't know how many more I'll be able to offer and in what time frame. I'm planning on entering law school and it's questionable if I'll be able to keep my license up in an (uggh) college town.

One OLL group buy will be happening. I just haven't decided which lower. (I made the mistake of mentioning my plans to two lower producers and they now refuse to do business with me. In one case, they cancelled an existing account and an order for a dozen lowers that were all going to standard states. I was able to swap the order to a different manufacturer, but now I'm going to lose some money on the deal. Oh, well.....) Thus, I'm just quietly seeking out bulk pricing to get y'all the best deal possible.

As for AKs, you can have completed ones that aren't on the list? Okay... I'll assume that you can't have pistol grips, folding stocks, or flash hiders. Will I need to pin mags in place? Grind off bayo lugs?

Again, I apologize for my lack of knowledge here. What's this about converting rifles over to CA-OK configuration? That can be done so long as it's done before the rifle enters CA?

Thanks,

Mike

prebans
01-10-2007, 2:13 PM
I would bet money that those century guns come pretty cheap sometimes (i.e. romanians at sub $250 dealer price). They would be very easy to buy in bulk and turn around quickly to california at a nice profit. Although, after transfer and dros, $400 retail might be a bit much for a century rommy gun now that the floodgates have opened so to speak. The market has many channels now and many more will open, so i'd be wary of pricing myself outta the market. This is what is happening with the Atlantic firearms "ca-legal" fixed mag AK and Evan's Assault weapons...errr modified ca-legal colt ar-15 rifles.

FYI, all prices are going up right now (dealer wholesale AND retail) due to the takeover of the House & Senate. It's not 1994 style madness YET, but I'm definitely seeing prices creep upward. :(

Mike

paradox
01-10-2007, 2:37 PM
As for AKs, you can have completed ones that aren't on the list? Okay... I'll assume that you can't have pistol grips, folding stocks, or flash hiders. Will I need to pin mags in place? Grind off bayo lugs?

Again, I apologize for my lack of knowledge here. What's this about converting rifles over to CA-OK configuration? That can be done so long as it's done before the rifle enters CA?


A rifle cannot enter the state in an illegal state. The easiest thing for you to do is to leave the magazine assembly as is (ie a detachable magazine) and remove all the “evil features”.

Evil features for rifles:
1. pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the rifle.
2. forward, vertical pistol grip
3. flash hider
4. grenade or flare launcher
5. thumbhole stock
6. folding or collapsing stock

(note bayo lug is NOT an evil feature in CA)

Remove all of those, send the rifle to the buyer’s FFL and the removed parts to the buyer. It’s now the buyer’s responsibility not to manufacture an illegal firearm.

hoffmang
01-10-2007, 2:38 PM
Mike,

You can have in your possession any configuration that is legal in your state. What was being proposed is that you can then modify items - like taking the Pistol Grip off an unlisted AK - and then sell that into California.

-Gene

Builder
01-10-2007, 3:24 PM
Hi Mike,
In addition to all the recommendations so far, consider the "lowly" 22LR. The rimfire is CA legal in any and all configurations (within Federal rules, of course). So an AR or AK in 22LR IS legal with any or all of the "evil" features. A rimfire can not be an Assault Weapon in CA.
Thanks,
Builder

Scarecrow Repair
01-10-2007, 6:16 PM
A rimfire can not be an Assault Weapon in CA.
Except with more than 10 round fixed mag, right?

Matt C
01-10-2007, 6:23 PM
Except with more than 10 round fixed mag, right?

That would be correct, unless it is in a mag tube, then it's exempt. I think that's how it goes anyway.

jerryg1776
01-10-2007, 8:15 PM
A rimfire can not be an Assault Weapon in CA.


Sure.. thats why they made me send in my little old Walther P-22 in to get "fixed". AW is AW by feature. Or am I wrong?

paradox
01-10-2007, 8:40 PM
Sure.. thats why they made me send in my little old Walther P-22 in to get "fixed". AW is AW by feature. Or am I wrong?

He's refering to rifles.

MuNgEr
01-10-2007, 9:04 PM
Not to deviate but I had to throw out some props after reading the posts in this thread (especially bwiese).

After reading all I could here on AR's & OLL's, a few weeks ago I ordered a RRA Predator Pursuit from Cold War. The information and the people here have been an outstanding resource!

I think I might print out the pertinent code sections and keep them in my AR's Pelican case:)