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bonjing
01-04-2007, 8:20 PM
Okay I'm probably just overthinking this stuff but I have a question about fire protection. If I understand this correctly the fire protection that comes from the fire boards are due to its moisture content, correct? So if you put in dessicant will it absorb that moisture from the board lessening the fire protection?:confused:

Thanks for the replies :)

scottj
01-05-2007, 9:34 AM
I've never heard that about fire board. I have heard that about the cement type fire linings. Most of the cement type fire lined safes have thin steel liners between the cement and inside of the safe so keeping desiccants inside the safe wouldn't effect the moisture content of the cement.

I think that fire board is just drywall which is of course very dry. Either way I don't think desiccants or dry rods would effect the fire proofness of the a safe.

Scott

scottj
01-05-2007, 9:39 AM
...unless of course the the golden rod shorted out and caught fire inside the safe...

Just kidding!

socalsteve
01-08-2007, 12:49 PM
I have heard that some of the fireboard retains and releases moisture (when heated) also.

It only releases it when heated up so you souldn't have to worry about the dessicant - it would be best to get an inner liner that should help seal the fireboard more too.

odysseus
01-10-2007, 12:00 AM
What brands of safes have this "moisture retaining" wall material and how could it have enough to do anything? I have not heard of this.

scottj
01-10-2007, 12:47 PM
The American Security BF series are made with a proprietary concrete material. Probably most of the comercial burglary resistant safes are made with reinforced concrete between two walls of steel.

I'm a little skeptical that moisture in the concrete would really have much effect, but I'm not an expert on fire retardants.

socalsteve
01-11-2007, 11:38 AM
I am also a bit skepticle on a lot of the claims by safe manufacturers.

Fort Knox says their fire board (some kind of drywall) retains and releases moisture. I have heard with the fire board and cement like AMSEC or Graffunder use you need dessicant or a golden rod or just a lighbulb to heat the air enough to dry out the moisture.

I just bought a used TL 30 without any firelining - I guess I'll take my chances!

I am going to build a closet around the safe so if anyone knows where I can get some of the ceramic blankets or fire board that safe manufactures use please let me know.

Then I will build a couple inches of that around the outside - it might even work better because there won't be a metal skin outside to heat up.

Scarecrow Repair
01-11-2007, 1:09 PM
I am going to build a closet around the safe so if anyone knows where I can get some of the ceramic blankets or fire board that safe manufactures use please let me know.
Would Hardie (sp?) board be good enough?

Satex
01-11-2007, 6:22 PM
I just bought a used TL 30 without any firelining - I guess I'll take my chances!


Wow, a TL-30! That's a pretty good burglery safe. How big is it and how much did you pay?

Satex
01-11-2007, 6:26 PM
Okay I'm probably just overthinking this stuff but I have a question about fire protection. If I understand this correctly the fire protection that comes from the fire boards are due to its moisture content, correct? So if you put in dessicant will it absorb that moisture from the board lessening the fire protection?:confused:


The fire boards aren't dry wall even though they look similar. The water content isn't the fire protection, its the fire board's insulation that gives you the most protection. The moisture that evaporates gives you a tad more protection. If the door seal is in good shape, then the evaporated moisture, which is now gas, will create a positive pressure inside the safe. The positive pressure will keep fumes out of the safe. That is another minor bonus.

pksman
01-11-2007, 6:32 PM
what he said.

surprised
01-11-2007, 11:07 PM
I am going to build a closet around the safe so if anyone knows where I can get some of the ceramic blankets or fire board that safe manufactures use please let me know.

Then I will build a couple inches of that around the outside - it might even work better because there won't be a metal skin outside to heat up.


I had been wondering the same. In poking through the web, I did find www.thermalceramics.com, which might be useful. I haven't used or bought it, so I don't have first-hand knowledge.

The cheapest alternative is probably fire-rated gypsum board, which you can get at your big-box home improvement store.

surprised
01-11-2007, 11:16 PM
Okay I'm probably just overthinking this stuff but I have a question about fire protection. If I understand this correctly the fire protection that comes from the fire boards are due to its moisture content, correct? So if you put in dessicant will it absorb that moisture from the board lessening the fire protection?:confused:

Thanks for the replies :)

Oh - forgot to mention. If you do have a high-moisture fire protection layer, your greatest concern might not be drying out the fire protection, but harming the firearms with the moisture. Some safes are listed explictly as not being suitable for firearms, precisely because of that - they are intended for papers and documents that can sustain a relatively humid environment.

scottj
01-12-2007, 7:55 AM
I was thinking of doing the same thing, build a box around the safe and stuff insulation between inner and outer box. Having the steel walls of the safe inside the insulation blanket would keep the contents of the safe much cooler.

McMaster-Carr sells several kinds of ceramic insulation that could be used:

www.mcmaster.com

Item # 93315k48

It's not cheap but looks like it would do the job. Also you could make a two layer blanket with the expensive high melting temp ceramic wool on the outside and the much cheaper lower melting temp fiberglass wool on the inside.

The one thing I hadn't been able to find a vendor for though was the expanding door seal, palusol. Has anybody seen someone selling this?

Scott

socalsteve
01-12-2007, 11:00 AM
I have actually thought of the hardy board - I don't know its fire retartdent value but it sure eats up saw blades.

If I would have bought an rsc rated gunsafe I was going to line the outside with hardy board. I though it would help strengthen the sides and back of the AMSEC bf7240 or the Surdy Safes.

I bought a used TL 30 for $3099 + tax and shipping(move into house).

It is 70 " high x 35.5 wide x 32 " deep counting hinges & handle
Its 68 h x 34.5 w x 27.5 inside with 1 inch thick steel plate on all 6 sides and weighs over 3700 pounds. At least I don't have to worry about holes or bolting it down.

As I said a closet is being built around and next to it. I also have to take out the door jam to get it into a back bedroom. Then I am going to put the jam back in and use 4" screws and glue all the wood together - so if someone does get it on a lift they will have to rip the door jam and 2x4's out to fit through the doorway. I guess I'll have to sell it with the house if I ever move.

I know its overkill but I wanted a big interior and with this safe I can fit a smaller fire resistant safe inside for important papers and such. I will have to build the shelves but I think I'll put them on the bottom with the smaller safe. This way the I will have gun barrels at the top which is the hottest spot in a fire (heat rises). Most gun safes put the extra shelves at the top and then you have the easiest combustible things like paper at the hottest spot in the safe.

I also want to use one of the revolving gun racks like they mention in this post.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsafes.html

I've started researching the ceramic blanket material that they use to line furnaces and kilns - I think if I can get 1/2 to 1 inch of that on the outside with hardy board over it I'll be good to go.

Gotta go work beckons.

socalsteve
01-12-2007, 11:55 AM
Wow, that site is awesome - I think I can find some blakets that will give me enough fire resistance for my needs.

Plus I'd love to check out the KEVLAR/NOMEX/FIBERGLASS blankets - I wonder how they would hold up to being shot at? Maybe the "bucket o truth" guys could test a square? Hmmm, maybe I'll test some?

It looks like the high temp silica cloth might be the thing to wrap around the outside - 6x8' for $204 - 2 or 3 of those should improve fire resistance quite alot.

scottj
01-12-2007, 12:22 PM
I couldn't find the cloth you were talking about so I'm not sure what you're talking about. But I presume the cloth is really for retaining something loose, like the wool. I would go with the ceramic blankets or boards instead. Most insulations work the same, by trapping air and not letting it move. The thicker the insulation, the more air is trapped, and the less heat is transmitted over time. So the thicker the blanket, the better. A thin cloth layer may not burn away in a fire but it wouldn't stop the heat from getting in the safe and cooking everything inside. Hope this helps!

Scott

Satex
01-12-2007, 7:32 PM
I wonder when they will start selling the heat shield tiles like they use on the space shuttle for safe insulation. I think that would provide good insulation for any house fire!