PDA

View Full Version : Customer Shoots .308 out of .30-06! Need advice.


tenpercentfirearms
01-04-2007, 6:13 PM
I had a kid come in and buy some .308 ammo. He is kind of timid and not very loud. Well he comes in this afternoon and says I sold him the wrong ammo. He says he has a .30-06 and that he shot the .308 ammo and it blew up in the gun!

He brings in the Remington 700 SPS and sure enough the case is stock in the rifle and it has been deprimed! I get out a rod and it comes right out and it has been fire formed to .30-06 specs out to the shoulder! I inspect the bolt face and everything looks fine. I inspect the barrel and every thing looks fine.

I lube up the bolt, put it back in and chamber check a .30-06 round and it seems to go in and eject no problem.

My guess is most of the pressure still traveled out the barrel, but he did get some powder burn in his face and something definitely came out the back. Are the 700s designed to release pressure out the back like that. Should I have him shoot it again or have him take it to a gun smith?

Let this be a lesson, never take the gun store owner's word for anything. His buddy even said to him, "Hey those bullets look kind of small." He learned a valuable lesson.

grammaton76
01-04-2007, 6:17 PM
Should I have him shoot it again or have him take it to a gun smith?

For liability reasons, you should tell him that the gun needs to go to a gunsmith. Preferably, in writing.

Then inform him that if he chooses not to take it to a gunsmith, he may want to try pulling the trigger with a string for the next few rounds, bring it back in, and you'll look it over for him.

Matt C
01-04-2007, 6:20 PM
Yeah, you are probably being way to nice to the kid (a good thing). He very well may sue you, but it's his own fault since I assume you sold him the ammo in a box marked .308. I have been sold the wrong ammo before, but I tend to notice when I take it out of the box. Anyway, informing him in writing not fire it till' he sees a smith is a good idea since you were already kind enough to help him.

SemiAutoSam
01-04-2007, 6:39 PM
Wes
No brainer here Gunsmith and then if the kid comes back sell him one of those little 30/06 to .308 adapters that goes in the chamber to adjust the size and lets it shoot .308.

PIRATE14
01-04-2007, 6:42 PM
It'll prob be fine but nothin wrong with a REAL gunsmith inspection:eek:

Most of the blow back was prob durin the fireform process since there was a big jump for the bullet and all that extra room for the gas to go around.

I've seen a lot of guys shoot 308 out of 3006 or at least a handful.

TonyNorCal
01-04-2007, 6:46 PM
I think it was handled well.

My opinion is that the operator of the firearm is responsible for loading the proper ammo into said firearm. Not be be overly harsh, but if someone isn't familiar enough with their weapon to know what the proper ammo is then they probably shouldn't be out shooting it.

I'd refer him to a gunsmith before he shoots again.

Ratters
01-04-2007, 6:49 PM
I think it was handled well.

My opinion is that the operator of the firearm is responsible for loading the proper ammo into said firearm. Not be be overly harsh, but if someone isn't familiar enough with their weapon to know what the proper ammo is then they probably shouldn't be out shooting it.

I'd refer him to a gunsmith before he shoots again.

Exactly.

My brother once shot 9mm out of his .40. Made a weird sound but no real damage, though the pressure levels are much less.

But yeah, the kid is responsible for knowing what ammo to put in his gun.

jumbopanda
01-04-2007, 7:01 PM
He's definately responsible for knowing what to feed his gun. If the marking on the box and the size of the cartridge don't clue him in, then I guess he has to learn the hard way.

tankerman
01-04-2007, 7:06 PM
Thats one hell of a jump to the lands and grooves. Not even Weatherby went for that kind of distance.
Personally I can't imagine that the gun should have any major issues, without the full support of the chamber I bet that the pressure was lower than normal because the case was able to expand more than normal. Maybe check the throat for damage?
If you have got the case please post pictures, I am interested in seeing what that kind of case expansion looks like.

5968
01-04-2007, 7:14 PM
If you can't figure out if its the proper ammo for the gun then you have no business trying to shoot it.

ask80
01-04-2007, 7:19 PM
I agree that the shooter should be responsible. but you should C.Y.A . you can sue for anything in the U.S. trust me, I've worked in superior court and have seen some ridiculous civil trials and ridiculous verdicts by the jury. he'll probably sue Remington too. just kidding

eckerph
01-04-2007, 7:24 PM
If he cant tell the difference between 30-06 and .308 he has no business using firearms or power tools and probably anything with wheels for that matter.

dfletcher
01-04-2007, 7:40 PM
Call him a dumbass, kick him in the fanny & tell him to get the hell out of your store.:eek:

NRAhighpowershooter
01-04-2007, 7:40 PM
I seriously doubt any harm was done.. there have been extensive articles on the CSP site about this same occurance happening with no ill effects on the Garand

Fjold
01-04-2007, 8:09 PM
Somewhere on the net there are pictures of a 308 case shot in a 270 chamber. The bullet swaged itself down through the bore and actuually hit the target at 100 yards. If I remember right it hit 14" low. No damage was done to the gun.

I also believe that if he asked for 30.06 and I accidently gave him 308, I would probably offer to take it to a gunsmith to be checked out.

If he asked for 308 and and then shot it out of his 30.06 I would tell him to take it to a gunsmith to get it checked himself.

slick_711
01-04-2007, 8:28 PM
This is something I see regularly with pistols at the range. 9mm in a .40S&W, .40S&W in .45ACPs, .45GAP in .45ACPs, and occasionally I've seen it with rifles. I highly doubt it damaged something as stout as a Rem700, but having a gun smith check it over isn't a bad idea. You handled it well though, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I'd also recommend against using the 'navy collar' chamber adapters that Sam mentioned without being well aware what you are doing. They're not terribly dangerous but are unreliable. I've seen personally on one occasion, and heard of many more; where the adapters stick to the .308 case neck upon ejection and then the shooter is firing .308 in a .30-06 barrel with no warning. You can of course install them permanently but then your .30-06 is gone :confused:

cornholio1
01-04-2007, 8:46 PM
Seems to be grayish. I m leaning towards your right. It was properly labeled. Can we draw an analogy? Maybe I go to your gas station and ask for a gallon of unleaded, but you give me a gallon of Diesel and my engine conks out. Id the jug was properly labeled, then it should be on the customer. I dunno. Grayish

Matt C
01-04-2007, 8:51 PM
Seems to be grayish. I m leaning towards your right. It was properly labeled. Can we draw an analogy? Maybe I go to your gas station and ask for a gallon of unleaded, but you give me a gallon of Diesel and my engine conks out. Id the jug was properly labeled, then it should be on the customer. I dunno. Grayish

Not really a great analogy, since both fuels are identical (more or less) and you would not see then when fueling. A better example might be batteries. If you go to buy a double "AA" and the guy sells you "AAA" you ought to notice before intalling them, but of course the potential for disaster is much less.

cornholio1
01-04-2007, 9:03 PM
Not really a great analogy, since both fuels are identical (more or less) and you would not see then when fueling. A better example might be batteries. If you go to buy a double "AA" and the guy sells you "AAA" you ought to notice before intalling them, but of course the potential for disaster is much less.


They are not the same. A gas car will not run on diesel. A gas engine has spark plugs and diesel engines do not. They are made for torque. If they were the same, theres no point in having both fuels. There are pros and cons to both.

damon1272
01-04-2007, 9:06 PM
I would put it in writing that the rifle should go to a remington approved gunsmith. Always remeber - no good deed goes unpunished. It is his fualt for using the wrong ammo but most people think small business owners are independantly wealth - you are aren't you?:). Be nice and point him in the right direction but protect yourself.

slick_711
01-04-2007, 9:12 PM
They are not the same. A gas car will not run on diesel. A gas engine has spark plugs and diesel engines do not. They are made for torque. If they were the same, theres no point in having both fuels. There are pros and cons to both.

To clarify: He wasn't saying they are identical in chemical composition or use. He was saying it wasn't the best analogy because the average driver cannot visibly tell the difference between the two during the act of fueling. Although a mechanic may be able to see/smell/taste the two and point out which is which, I sure as heck wouldn't know a difference between the two. Thus it is inherently different from something like batteries or ammo, where the consumer sees the product before it's application; and a good consumer should (but most don't) know the difference.

kantstudien
01-04-2007, 9:26 PM
10%, I know this may be difficult with you being in Kern County and all, but try and find smarter customers. ;)

tenpercentfirearms
01-04-2007, 9:28 PM
I didn't mention, I actually gave him two boxes of the proper .30-06 ammo and told him to drop off what is left of the .308 boxes tomorrow (the actual boxes were in his room at home, but he had some of the ammo). His buddy did say the first one they shot went fine! :eek:

I will advise him to take it over to a gun smith in Bakersfield and have it checked out before shooting it again. Yeah, he is a green kid. The gun is a Remington 700 SPS and he shoots it with no scope or iron sights. :confused: Nice kid though.

ivanimal
01-04-2007, 10:07 PM
I didn't mention, I actually gave him two boxes of the proper .30-06 ammo and told him to drop off what is left of the .308 boxes tomorrow (the actual boxes were in his room at home, but he had some of the ammo). His buddy did say the first one they shot went fine! :eek:

I will advise him to take it over to a gun smith in Bakersfield and have it checked out before shooting it again. Yeah, he is a green kid. The gun is a Remington 700 SPS and he shoots it with no scope or iron sights. :confused: Nice kid though.


Things are really diferent in Taft arent they:D JK/ my nephew once put a 30 30 round in my 7.5 french with the same result. I had to disassemble the bolt and change the firing pin spring. It shoots fine now.

Mike 56
01-04-2007, 10:12 PM
My brotherinlaw was hand loading one round at a time in my Yugo SKS. He accidentally loaded a 223 and fired it. It did not hurt the rifle but talk about fire forming a case.

Mike

CALI-gula
01-05-2007, 2:36 AM
Sell him 5 more boxes of .308. You are a teacher aren't you? Tell him you were only trying to teach him a lesson, and it was for his own good.

"Mr. Owl, how many .308 rounds does it take to get to the center of a .30-06 Remington 700?"


http://www.tootsie.com/image-sb/licks/howmany3.jpg

.

five.five-six
01-05-2007, 4:09 AM
If I had done that, i would probably send the rifle back to remington. when safety is conserned, I do not take any chances..

tankerman
01-05-2007, 4:29 AM
Deleted.

luvtolean
01-05-2007, 7:20 AM
Wes, you never know when a customer's cousin's x-wife's half brother is an attorney, and hearing the kid's story, convinces the kid he can get him a new car if he lets him sue you.

In writing, when he picks up the gun, "This firearm must be taken to a licensed (?) gunsmith before firing. It is currently not considered safe for operation."

And, you might want to consider some kind of warning sign about the customer is responsible for checking to make sure he has the right ammo or something. :rolleyes: :(

Aluisious
01-05-2007, 8:07 AM
That kid is at fault. He has a box that says ".308" and a receiver/barrel stamped "30-06." The gun makers know how to avoid that liability.

I'd tell him to go to a gunsmith to check out his weapon.

Now for selling the wrong kind of ammo...I got a box of WWB .45 that had a round of .40 SW in it. I was absentmindedly stuffing my magazine and couldn't figure out why the one round wouldn't stay in...

Diabolus
01-05-2007, 9:05 AM
Does the Basic Handgun Certificate test talk about calibers and how its important to check before blasting away?

Aluisious
01-05-2007, 9:11 AM
Does the Basic Handgun Certificate test talk about calibers and how its important to check before blasting away?
I only remember the good questions, like whether the safest place to point a handgun is

a) Your head
b) A school bus full of children
c) A safe place

five.five-six
01-05-2007, 9:20 AM
Deleted

tenpercentfirearms
01-05-2007, 9:26 AM
FACT: The factory doesn't warranty using the wrong ammunition.

FACT: A gunsmith would be a better place to send it.

five.five-six
01-05-2007, 9:34 AM
FACT: The factory doesn't warranty using the wrong ammunition.

FACT: A gunsmith would be a better place to send it.

FACT: All your other points are valid.


yea I am sure the factory would not warrantee it but the kid screwed up and I would hate to see you get burnt. as far as a gunsmith being better that may or may not be true. there are gunsmiths and then there are gunsmiths and your mileage may vary

just ask yourself, which would be better

Plaintiff’s attorney: and Mr. 10% have you done business with said gunsmith in the past? then you could say you were friends

-or-

respondents attorney: here is a receipt of inspection / repair from the factory

NRAhighpowershooter
01-05-2007, 10:11 AM
OK People..... we are talking about a Rem 700 action that will take up to a 300win mag and beyond.. THAT is pressure... firing a 308 in a 30-06 rifle is no biggie.. you end up with a straight wall casing afterwards... people have been doing this accidentally and also on purpose for years with no ill effects to the rifle. Nothing is going to crack.... as far as the bullet dinging up the barrel or throat on it's way out the case mouth is VERRRRY slight to non-exsistant..Don't forget the base of a 308 case (not the rim) is slightly larger than a 30-06 case that that lone will wedge the case in straight.. if it didn;t the round would have never fired as the round would have just been slop in the chamber.....Also the bolt held the round in striaght as the Rem action is push feed and the extractor needed to snap over the rim to hold the case so the firing pin could come into contact with the primer......

Aluisious
01-05-2007, 10:14 AM
BTW, in case I missed it, why is any of this really 10%'s problem?

Kid: Can I shoot my rifle still, mister?

10%: Figure it out, kid.

??

taquito971
01-05-2007, 10:29 AM
BTW, in case I missed it, why is any of this really 10%'s problem?

Kid: Can I shoot my rifle still, mister?

10%: Figure it out, kid.

??

Only because he's a nice guy.

five.five-six
01-05-2007, 1:12 PM
10%, I know this may be difficult with you being in Kern County and all, but try and find smarter customers. ;)

good point, Kern county and calgunners, you are realy trolling the shallow end of the gene pool :p

Aluisious
01-05-2007, 1:21 PM
Only because he's a nice guy.
Being a nice guy can get you in a lot of trouble :mad:

xenophobe
01-05-2007, 3:14 PM
My guess is most of the pressure still traveled out the barrel, but he did get some powder burn in his face and something definitely came out the back. Are the 700s designed to release pressure out the back like that. Should I have him shoot it again or have him take it to a gun smith?

The Remington 700 is designed to vent gas instead of blow up. Look at the side of receiver by the breech. The hole there is to vent gas. The bolt is also designed to not explode if it has to vent gas.

The rifle should be just fine.


Let this be a lesson, never take the gun store owner's word for anything. His buddy even said to him, "Hey those bullets look kind of small." He learned a valuable lesson.

Absolutely. It is his fault. The rifle is properly marked with a caliber, and you should always check to make sure the ammo you are using or buying is correct and not to shoot it before double checking.

tankerman
01-05-2007, 7:56 PM
Deleted

five.five-six
01-05-2007, 8:18 PM
I just posted what I would do... FACT

tankerman
01-05-2007, 9:06 PM
Deleted

five.five-six
01-05-2007, 9:19 PM
Deleted

Scarecrow Repair
01-05-2007, 11:28 PM
2 + 2 = 4 for sufficiently precise values of 2 and 4.

Moon is spelt m-o-o-n sometimes. M-o-o-n some other times. And other ways in poetry and/or other languages.

This is boring.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
01-06-2007, 12:44 AM
In before the lock?

ivanimal
01-06-2007, 1:04 AM
Please do not attack other members on this board. You guys are way too much alike to be arguing. I have reopened the thread, its time again to be civil.

five.five-six
01-07-2007, 2:02 AM
In before the lock?

wow this is a first for me... in after the lock :p

wutzu
01-07-2007, 4:49 AM
I only remember the good questions, like whether the safest place to point a handgun is

a) Your head
b) A school bus full of children
c) A safe place


ACK! don't remind me! That was the one question I got wrong.

In my defense, it was slightly harder than you remember it.

taloft
01-07-2007, 9:00 AM
Since when do you take the HSC test in order to get a rifle?:D

Sounds like a young man who made a mistake. It does happen, fortunately no body got hurt. Teach him to compare the barrel markings to the ammo box so he doesn't do it again. Send him to a smith to get the rifle checked. It is cheap insurance for the both of you. Having the crap scared out of you, then having a competent Gunsmith dip into your pocket should provide an adequate lesson on why you need to RTFM.