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View Full Version : Is it legal to carry loaded gun on your person in your front and backyards?


scorpio66
07-16-2011, 1:39 PM
And if so, do the same laws apply to you having the right to protect your life if threatened by an intruder approaching you with a gun?

Librarian
07-16-2011, 2:00 PM
And if so, do the same laws apply to you having the right to protect your life if threatened by an intruder approaching you with a gun?

Depends. (Doesn't everything?)

See this wiki article -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Unlicensed_Concealed_Carry -- in this case, unlicensed concealed and unlicensed open carry are equivalent, because you're concerned with 'loaded in public'.

The short answer to the first question you pose is 'backyard probably OK, front yard probably not OK'.

Second question, yes, the same laws apply.

In your front yard creates some ambiguity; in your back yard or in your house, things might be somewhat clearer.

paul0660
07-16-2011, 2:02 PM
Good job Librarian.

I would add that one can be threatened by a weapon other than a gun and still lawfully use yours.

scorpio66
07-16-2011, 2:27 PM
@ Librarian, but my driveway and front yard are considered private property

Cokebottle
07-16-2011, 2:31 PM
@ Librarian, but my driveway and front yard are considered private property
Unless the front yard is fenced and gated, it is considered "open to the public"

Not unlike the common areas in a condo or apartment complex.

CSACANNONEER
07-16-2011, 2:38 PM
Perfectly legal and normal for ME to carry anywhere on the property I live on. However, I don't live in town.

Dutch3
07-16-2011, 2:38 PM
@ Librarian, but my driveway and front yard are considered private property

Your private property must be secured enough to "present a challenge" to anyone attempting to enter. A fence and a closed gate are generally considered to "present a challenge". Thorny shrubs would likely suffice as well.

Anchors
07-16-2011, 2:41 PM
Cokebottle is correct. Unless you have a fence on your front yard, it is a "public place".

Now - it doesn't have to be a solid, 6' high fence. You can have a 3' see-through chainlink fence and that still counts as a fence as it provides notice to people that this property is locked and secured and not a "public place".

Also, just because you don't have a fence doesn't mean you aren't allowed to tell people to get off your lawn and call the cops if they're trespassing.

Also, you can defend yourself with lethal force if you are reasonably in fear for your life or great bodily injury. This could mean that you stab someone in the neck with a pen at McDonald's if they're pointing a gun at you (probably a bad idea, but legal).
But if you are in your home at night and someone unknown breaks in, you have the right to use lethal force. Even if it turns out they were unarmed (which you really have no way of knowing by looking at a burglar at 2am in the pitch black of night).


Your private property must be secured enough to "present a challenge" to anyone attempting to enter. A fence and a closed gate are generally considered to "present a challenge". Thorny shrubs would likely suffice as well.

Wasn't aware of the shrubs, that is cool too. Looks helluva lot nicer than a chainlink haha.

Cokebottle
07-16-2011, 2:44 PM
Perfectly legal and normal for ME to carry anywhere on the property I live on. However, I don't live in town.
Ya, but you're unincorporated. If I'm not mistaken, you can LOC outside of your property as well "where shooting is not otherwise prohibited" ;)

scorpio66
07-16-2011, 2:45 PM
Ok, so the fact my front yard is not fenced in would be the difference. WTF? Say I'm working in my driveway and I'm approached by someone armed and threatens to shoot me if I don't comply. I'm supposed to be a sitting duck? California law sucks @$$!

aermotor
07-16-2011, 2:46 PM
I think as long as the yard sare FENCED in then you're good. Don't even think about "threatening" or "brandishing" or you're done.

Doesn't matter if someone approaches you. You cannot have a firearm in an openly accessed "public space" — it's horse crap I know. CA is a state for criminals to flourish and law abiding citizens to suffer.

Dutch3
07-16-2011, 2:48 PM
Wasn't aware of the shrubs, that is cool too. Looks helluva lot nicer than a chainlink haha.

I would rather pick my way through barbed wire than get near some blackberry bushes. :eek:

IrishPirate
07-16-2011, 2:49 PM
Ok, so the fact my front yard is not fenced in would be the difference. WTF? Say I'm working in my driveway and I'm approached by someone armed and threatens to shoot me if I don't comply. I'm supposed to be a sitting duck? California law sucks @$$!

pretty much. better a dead citizen than a dead criminal...that's how our law makers think at least.

Dutch3
07-16-2011, 2:50 PM
Ya, but you're unincorporated. If I'm not mistaken, you can LOC outside of your property as well "where shooting is not otherwise prohibited" ;)

I am in unincorporated as well, but if I exit my front gate and take two steps north, I will be in a GFSZ. It's like they are everywhere.

stitchnicklas
07-16-2011, 3:04 PM
I am in unincorporated as well, but if I exit my front gate and take two steps north, I will be in a GFSZ. It's like they are everywhere.

awww yes the gfsz dis-armer....

to the op:
do you live within 1000ft of a school???

Connor P Price
07-16-2011, 3:05 PM
Perfectly legal and normal for ME to carry anywhere on the property I live on. However, I don't live in town.

Showoff! :eek::D

On another note, for those that would like to be armed while working in their front yard, if you have a garage, just move it in there. Even if the garage door is open, as long as your inside your still in the clear. Just like its ok to be inside of any part of your home while armed, the front door being open doesn't change that. Same goes for a garage door.

Librarian
07-16-2011, 3:38 PM
@ Librarian, but my driveway and front yard are considered private property

That's why I put in the link to the wiki - to get an idea what the courts think, you have to read the court cases listed there.

Note I did not say 'to understand'...

CSACANNONEER
07-16-2011, 4:28 PM
Showoff! :eek::D

On another note, for those that would like to be armed while working in their front yard, if you have a garage, just move it in there. Even if the garage door is open, as long as your inside your still in the clear. Just like its ok to be inside of any part of your home while armed, the front door being open doesn't change that. Same goes for a garage door.

Last night my UPS driver showed up about 6pm. I went outside to meet him with my SP101 sticing out of my front pocket. He handed me a package of ammo that a Calgunner sent me, we talked for a while about the local wildlife, snakes and such. I pointed at where I got my last few rattlers and said "that's why I don't go out without a gun". He never flinched. When you can count on emergency responce times to be +30 minutes (if they are close and know exactly where you are) to several hours (if they can't find your house) having a way to protect yourself is just common place.

taperxz
07-16-2011, 4:35 PM
Last night my UPS driver showed up about 6pm. I went outside to meet him with my SP101 sticing out of my front pocket. He handed me a package of ammo that a Calgunner sent me, we talked for a while about the local wildlife, snakes and such. I pointed at where I got my last few rattlers and said "that's why I don't go out without a gun". He never flinched. When you can count on emergency responce times to be +30 minutes (if they are close and know exactly where you are) to several hours (if they can't find your house) having a way to protect yourself is just common place.

LOL we live parallel lives.

eqlzr
07-16-2011, 4:43 PM
@ Librarian, but my driveway and front yard are considered private property

According to my local policia here in SoCal, you may find that your definition of "private property" has nothing to do with reality.

Anchors
07-16-2011, 5:30 PM
Question that I just thought of:
I always pictured just fencing my yard, but I would need a gate on my actual driveway to carry in my driveway, wouldn't I?
So I have to open and close the gate every time I park?
Rad....

Ok, so the fact my front yard is not fenced in would be the difference. WTF? Say I'm working in my driveway and I'm approached by someone armed and threatens to shoot me if I don't comply. I'm supposed to be a sitting duck? California law sucks @$$!

Welcome to the party buddy. haha.
That said, nothing wrong with keeping a loaded shotgun five feet away inside your garage...or putting the fence around your yard.

I would rather pick my way through barbed wire than get near some blackberry bushes. :eek:

Agreed! haha. And I always think chain-link looks kinda grungy in neighborhoods. I would never put it around my house. Pickets - maybe, but those don't really help keep anyone out even if they do help with the "public place" conundrum.

I am in unincorporated as well, but if I exit my front gate and take two steps north, I will be in a GFSZ. It's like they are everywhere.

That is such BS. I hate that damn law.
Question: Does a CA CCW exempt someone from the CA GFSZ the same way that is does the fed GFSZ? So you could technically UOC in a school zone if you also had a CA CCW? (I know, why would you, but the question stands).
I know in Arizona I can LOC/CC in a fed GFSZ because I have a CCW.
I did a PPT at RifleGear today and we were talking about the irony in the fact that all the people that OC/CC in Arizona without a permit and go within 1000 feet of a school are technically violating federal law. Probably the dumbest law of them all.

Last night my UPS driver showed up about 6pm. I went outside to meet him with my SP101 sticing out of my front pocket. He handed me a package of ammo that a Calgunner sent me, we talked for a while about the local wildlife, snakes and such. I pointed at where I got my last few rattlers and said "that's why I don't go out without a gun". He never flinched. When you can count on emergency responce times to be +30 minutes (if they are close and know exactly where you are) to several hours (if they can't find your house) having a way to protect yourself is just common place.

It is commonplace even in the city in some states. But yeah I see your point.
In Phoenix, a lot of people in the "outskirt suburbs" (still incorporated, but lots of dirt and open space) still open carry all around the area. Those snakes and coyotes don't care where the city limits start and end (and not just the animal versions ;)).

My dad always open carried when hiking/camping out in the desert when I was a kid and he is probably the least "open carry kinda guy" ever. He has never spoken in length about the 2A or gun-rights, I don't think they concern him much, which is weird. He is purely interested in guns from a self-defense standpoint (which came from years of self-defense training), not a collector by any means.
He still has a CCW though and lives in Palm Beach, FL now haha.

UPS drivers are pretty cool. I had one of the FREIGHT guys part his semi that is twice the length of a normal one on my residential street when he delivered my gun safe. He said "damn this is a tall safe, is it for guns or something". I said yeah and he seemed pretty agreeable about it.

paul0660
07-16-2011, 5:39 PM
Originally Posted by scorpio66 View Post
Ok, so the fact my front yard is not fenced in would be the difference. WTF? Say I'm working in my driveway and I'm approached by someone armed and threatens to shoot me if I don't comply. I'm supposed to be a sitting duck? California law sucks @$$!

You knew that before you posted, and might even be why.

Cokebottle
07-16-2011, 6:23 PM
Question: Does a CA CCW exempt someone from the CA GFSZ the same way that is does the fed GFSZ?
Yes.
So you could technically UOC in a school zone if you also had a CA CCW? (I know, why would you, but the question stands).
No.

Thanks to some people with CCW practicing LOC in Los Angeles, case law has limited CCW to concealed only.

Yes, the way the law is written, it appears that you would be exempt from 12031 while OC, but not with current case law. No case law on UOC in a GFSZ with a CCW, but given the above, I would not chance it.
I know in Arizona I can LOC/CC in a fed GFSZ because I have a CCW.
I did a PPT at RifleGear today and we were talking about the irony in the fact that all the people that OC/CC in Arizona without a permit and go within 1000 feet of a school are technically violating federal law. Probably the dumbest law of them all.

And nationwide recip and Constitutional Carry don't change this. To be exempt under Federal law, you have to have a CCW issued by the state in which the school is located.

Even LEO carrying under HR218 are not exempt from the GFSZ unless they have a CCW issued by that state.

stitchnicklas
07-16-2011, 7:54 PM
i love my current rental house,i plan on being here for the next 5-6 years.

2-story with garage,with 6 1/2 ft dogwood fence on side and front,1 side 7ft block wall,and the front gate is wrot-iron 5 3/4ft,front door is behind it all

so i can investigate any noise outside concealed or in hand as it is only accessible to a intruder who hop-ed a fence.gfsz is non consequential,only time i can't carry is in driveway loaded...

luckystrike
07-16-2011, 8:59 PM
Unless the front yard is fenced and gated, it is considered "open to the public"

Not unlike the common areas in a condo or apartment complex.

I generally agree with librarian.

so a condo/appt complex is NOT considered open to the public?

Anchors
07-16-2011, 8:59 PM
No.
Thanks to some people with CCW practicing LOC in Los Angeles, case law has limited CCW to concealed only.

Yes, the way the law is written, it appears that you would be exempt from 12031 while OC, but not with current case law. No case law on UOC in a GFSZ with a CCW, but given the above, I would not chance it.

Wow. Figures. Haha.
LOC? Before LOC got canned?


And nationwide recip and Constitutional Carry don't change this. To be exempt under Federal law, you have to have a CCW issued by the state in which the school is located.

Even LEO carrying under HR218 are not exempt from the GFSZ unless they have a CCW issued by that state.

Yes, I knew that reciprocity also didn't cover GFSZ.
and WOW, I didn't know that. The LEOSA doesn't cover school zones?
That seems pretty lame.
So this is one of the reasons people say in some places the CCW actually grants more places you can carry than LEOSA.
That is crazy.

Dave A
07-16-2011, 9:20 PM
Hmmmm - I live on a couple of acres with pipe fencing across the front and the same fencing on two plus remaining sides. Some of the rest is lined with shrubbery, but the driveway has no gate and about another eighty feet is not fenced (yet). However the driveway entrance is off of a private paved road and the street sign says private road on it. The property does front on a public roadway.

From reading the link posted by Librarian, I think my property would not qualify as open to the public. In any case, I live in the county and doubt anyone would think twice about a pistol butt sticking out of my hip pocket?

Dutch3
07-16-2011, 9:45 PM
Question that I just thought of:
I always pictured just fencing my yard, but I would need a gate on my actual driveway to carry in my driveway, wouldn't I?
So I have to open and close the gate every time I park?


I do. It's a pain, especially in the rain. The main reason I keep my gates closed all of the time is to keep my neighbors' dogs out of my yard.

Librarian
07-16-2011, 10:15 PM
so a condo/appt complex is NOT considered open to the public?The 'common areas' generally ARE considered open to the public - see, particularly, People v Overturf at the wiki link.

Burbur
07-16-2011, 10:16 PM
In the past, local Sheriffs have refused our trespassing and theft complaints multiple times, because our property is "publicly accessible."

Our property begins 2 miles after the public road ends, was fenced by 8' chain link on all perimeters and access points except the 400' of frontage which was around our house (who wants that much ugly fence right next to their house?) Because of this lapse in GTFO fence, anyone on our property "cannot be charged with trespassing," even if they were stealing fruit...

Now we have installed and operate 3 electric gates (on top of 3 manual gates), an extra 200' of wrought iron and about as much thick oleander, just to preserve our right of ownership. Comes in handy, keeps the Jehovah's Witnesses and fund raisers away.

But it takes a big F OFF fence, to preserve many of your rights, you would ordinarily assume you have.

Cokebottle
07-16-2011, 10:22 PM
I generally agree with librarian.

so a condo/appt complex is NOT considered open to the public?
No... it IS considered open to the public.

Even worse than your front yard... a gated community is still common area.

luckystrike
07-17-2011, 12:01 AM
No... it IS considered open to the public.

Even worse than your front yard... a gated community is still common area.

:mad:

scorpio66
07-17-2011, 11:41 AM
awww yes the gfsz dis-armer....

to the op:
do you live within 1000ft of a school???

yes...I'm sure that makes it worse. Actually no...I live within 1,584 ft.

scorpio66
07-17-2011, 11:43 AM
awww yes the gfsz dis-armer....

to the op:
do you live within 1000ft of a school???

Oh, and I google mapped that address....San Antonio, NM?

Quickbeam
07-17-2011, 4:42 PM
Of course, you could always OC unloaded with a magazine in your pocket, even in your unfenced front yard, right?

Anchors
07-17-2011, 5:17 PM
Hmmmm - I live on a couple of acres with pipe fencing across the front and the same fencing on two plus remaining sides. Some of the rest is lined with shrubbery, but the driveway has no gate and about another eighty feet is not fenced (yet). However the driveway entrance is off of a private paved road and the street sign says private road on it. The property does front on a public roadway.

From reading the link posted by Librarian, I think my property would not qualify as open to the public. In any case, I live in the county and doubt anyone would think twice about a pistol butt sticking out of my hip pocket?
Just curious, if you are that remote...do you live in an unincorporated area anyway?
You might be able to LOC where you live.

Of course, you could always OC unloaded with a magazine in your pocket, even in your unfenced front yard, right?

If your front yard is not in a school zone, yes.
Though not illegal, it is not recommended to conceal loaded magazines while UOCing (officer interpretation can vary).

Cokebottle
07-17-2011, 5:35 PM
Of course, you could always OC unloaded with a magazine in your pocket, even in your unfenced front yard, right?
No.

Revolver UOC with a speedloader in your pocket is okay, but a concealed, loaded magazine for a semi-auto will get you popped for 12031.

CitaDeL
07-17-2011, 5:44 PM
No.

Revolver UOC with a speedloader in your pocket is okay, but a concealed, loaded magazine for a semi-auto will get you popped for 12031.

You mean for 12025.

Cokebottle
07-17-2011, 5:47 PM
You mean for 12025.
Both actually.

Loaded and concealed. Two misdemeanors for 1st offense.
Felony for 2nd offense.

CitaDeL
07-17-2011, 5:50 PM
Both actually.

Loaded and concealed. Two misdemeanors for 1st offense.
Felony for 2nd offense.

But if the magazine is in your pocket it isnt in a position from which the ammunition could be fired. That also doesnt take into account that it would be no violation if the person was in unincorporated territory where discharge wasnt prohibited.

stitchnicklas
07-17-2011, 8:15 PM
Oh, and I google mapped that address....San Antonio, NM?

negative....zoom in,then out...and http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Trinity_Site_Obelisk_National_Historic_Landmark.jp g...

Someday
07-17-2011, 8:25 PM
Your private property must be secured enough to "present a challenge" to anyone attempting to enter. A fence and a closed gate are generally considered to "present a challenge". Thorny shrubs would likely suffice as well.

I would say that my gun should constitute the "challenge", but that's just me. Librarian and Cokebottle (as usual) are right.

donw
07-18-2011, 6:19 AM
I would rather pick my way through barbed wire than get near some blackberry bushes. :eek:

ever encounter razor wire? barbed wire is mellow compared to it...:(:eek:

donw
07-18-2011, 6:26 AM
Cokebottle is correct. Unless you have a fence on your front yard, it is a "public place".

Now - it doesn't have to be a solid, 6' high fence. You can have a 3' see-through chainlink fence and that still counts as a fence as it provides notice to people that this property is locked and secured and not a "public place".

Also, just because you don't have a fence doesn't mean you aren't allowed to tell people to get off your lawn and call the cops if they're trespassing.

Also, you can defend yourself with lethal force if you are reasonably in fear for your life or great bodily injury. This could mean that you stab someone in the neck with a pen at McDonald's if they're pointing a gun at you (probably a bad idea, but legal).
But if you are in your home at night and someone unknown breaks in, you have the right to use lethal force. Even if it turns out they were unarmed (which you really have no way of knowing by looking at a burglar at 2am in the pitch black of night).




Wasn't aware of the shrubs, that is cool too. Looks helluva lot nicer than a chainlink haha.

when i lived in south San Diego (next to San Ysidro) i called the cops about people cutting thru my front yard and was told by the SDPD: "If it's not fenced, it's considered open to the public; it's a public thoroughfare"

vantec08
07-18-2011, 11:02 AM
when i lived in south San Diego (next to San Ysidro) i called the cops about people cutting thru my front yard and was told by the SDPD: "If it's not fenced, it's considered open to the public; it's a public thoroughfare"


Please tell me you are kidding, donw

Dutch3
07-18-2011, 2:27 PM
I would say that my gun should constitute the "challenge", but that's just me. Librarian and Cokebottle (as usual) are right.

There is a fine line between a visible firearm providing a "challenge" and being charged with "brandishing".

If you don't touch it, can you still be "brandishing"? I don't know.

Anchors
07-18-2011, 6:31 PM
Except the penal code for "criminal storage". If you store a firearm in such a fashion that it is likely that kids will be able to get access to it, and something bad happens, you might be on the hook. So by "keeping" in the above sentence, you should probably mean: Put it in a safe that is 12088-compliant and is kept locked, or store it in some other fashion such that kids can't get to it.

We are in the fortunate situation that no part of our property is publicly accessible, and doesn't even touch publicly accessible places.

Read that part again.
That is if you have reason to believe that children will have access to it.
If some 12 year olds break into your house and shoot themselves with the loaded Glock on your night stand, you are NOT liable.
I don't have kids (only 22 y/o), so if some kid breaks into my garage and does something dumb with my shotgun, that is his fault (as it should be).

Plus, if you are 10 feet away working on the car, don't you think you would see them? Especially approaching your shotgun? Possibly racking it if you leave the chamber clear?

More of what I meant was take your shotgun out of the safe and put it in the garage when you are working outside. Not leave one in the garage to get all rusted and spider-webbed haha.

Cokebottle
07-18-2011, 7:24 PM
There is a fine line between a visible firearm providing a "challenge" and being charged with "brandishing".

If you don't touch it, can you still be "brandishing"? I don't know.
"Display in a rude or threatening manner"

LOC combined with "Get the eff off of my lawn or I'll blow your stinking head off" would likely qualify.

todd2968
07-18-2011, 7:59 PM
Remember that guy a few months ago that was on his porch twirling a hose nozzle almost passing out, and the cops open fired from a bush because he supposedly pointed the hose spray nozzle at them.
http://www.newsy.com/videos/california-police-shoot-man-holding-water-nozzle/

You might be within the law but it may cost you your life.

swilson
07-18-2011, 8:34 PM
when i lived in south San Diego (next to San Ysidro) i called the cops about people cutting thru my front yard and was told by the SDPD: "If it's not fenced, it's considered open to the public; it's a public thoroughfare"


Please tell me you are kidding, donw

SDPD told me the same thing, verbaitm, when I called them asking advice about kids sprinting up and down my stairs and across my front yard. The officer also said I'm not liable if someone hurts themself on my property, which is another example of why not to take legal advice from the police.

Quickbeam
07-19-2011, 1:36 AM
No.

Revolver UOC with a speedloader in your pocket is okay, but a concealed, loaded magazine for a semi-auto will get you popped for 12031.

Wow, I didn't know that merely having a concealed magazine was illegal. Suuuuuper lame. :mad:

Anchors
07-19-2011, 2:11 AM
"Display in a rude or threatening manner"

LOC combined with "Get the eff off of my lawn or I'll blow your stinking head off" would likely qualify.

Even in Arizona, if you are CC and unconceal during an argument, that is brandishing or if you are OC and point to it, that is also brandishing.
Of course, if you are doing so in self-defense this isn't illegal.

GrizzlyGuy
07-19-2011, 6:08 AM
Of course, you could always OC unloaded with a magazine in your pocket, even in your unfenced front yard, right?

No.

Revolver UOC with a speedloader in your pocket is okay, but a concealed, loaded magazine for a semi-auto will get you popped for 12031.

Both actually.

Loaded and concealed. Two misdemeanors for 1st offense.
Felony for 2nd offense.

I disagree. 12026 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.html) allows you to carry a concealed firearm anywhere on your private property, including one foot from the unfenced property line of your front yard or driveway. The 'public place' concept from Overturf (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Unlicensed_Concealed_Carry#People_v._Overturf) only relates to carrying loaded (12031 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html)). An unloaded gun concealed in your pants with a filled magazine concealed in your pocket is therefore legal anywhere on your private property.

Anchors
07-19-2011, 6:54 AM
Interesting. Hmm

Someday
07-20-2011, 8:02 PM
There is a fine line between a visible firearm providing a "challenge" and being charged with "brandishing".

If you don't touch it, can you still be "brandishing"? I don't know.

What I meant was that I shouldn't "have" to build a fence, moat, etc around my house for it to be considered secure. Fences and bushes can be hopped. It shouldn't be any less legal for me to protect myself (or be prepared to protect myself by OCing/CCing/whatever) in my front yard because I didn't have a fence for him to hop over to begin with! If somebody that is ready to do something dumb feels threatened because he/she sees my gun on my hip, then that should be his/her problem and not mine. Likewise, if soccer mom gets upset because I am armed in my front yard, well there are two sides to every street - choose the other side.

If I am playing with my firearm and pointing at people as they walk by, then yeah that's brandishing. If I felt threatened enough to issue a verbal challenge, then that is another story entirely.

Dutch3
07-20-2011, 8:39 PM
What I meant was that I shouldn't "have" to build a fence, moat, etc around my house for it to be considered secure. Fences and bushes can be hopped. It shouldn't be any less legal for me to protect myself (or be prepared to protect myself by OCing/CCing/whatever) in my front yard because I didn't have a fence for him to hop over to begin with!

I do agree, but this is California. We shouldn't have to cross those yellow bump mats to enter the grocery store, either. I understand they are there for the sight-impaired (did they drive to the store?), but cause a trip hazard for the rest (99%) of the population.

Common sense doesn't factor into the equation. For your property to be considered "private", you must provide enough of a challenge so that nobody can accidentally wander onto it. It sucks, but how can anyone fight such a mentality?

Someday
07-20-2011, 8:44 PM
If there is one thing that I have learned in all my years of dealing with people with mental disabilities, it's that you can't argue with crazy! I think common sense was killed off years ago in this state.

Cokebottle
07-20-2011, 8:46 PM
I understand they are there for the sight-impaired (did they drive to the store?)
Braille characters on the drive-up ATM, so maybe so ;)

resident-shooter
07-20-2011, 9:39 PM
Ok, so the fact my front yard is not fenced in would be the difference. WTF? Say I'm working in my driveway and I'm approached by someone armed and threatens to shoot me if I don't comply. I'm supposed to be a sitting duck? California law sucks @$$!

Ummm yea. Say you are hunting or hiking in a national forest (same as blm/public land), you enter private property with a gun on your shoulder, but here is NO fence or sign. How would you know it was private property????? And if you also got shot? How nice would that be?

This law makes a bit of sense because a fence means "please stay out"

Someday
07-21-2011, 8:34 AM
One huge difference. Unless you are blind, most people can tell where the sidewalk ends and where my driveway begins. Obviously, out in the mountains/dessert/country/etc the land may all look the same - fine, post the no trespassing signs but I see no logical need for it (leaving the legal requirement out of the picture for a moment).

Glock22Fan
07-21-2011, 9:33 AM
SDPD told me the same thing, verbaitm, when I called them asking advice about kids sprinting up and down my stairs and across my front yard. The officer also said I'm not liable if someone hurts themself on my property, which is another example of why not to take legal advice from the police.

Why? There is indeed, AFAIK, a law that states that you have no responsibility for an uninvited guest hurting themselves on your property. Good job too, or those of us living on, say, ten acres of hillside would have to take measures to fence the whole lot or face problems with claims from off-roaders, horse riders etc.

I once told a deputy I had thought about erecting signs saying "Welcome to Antelope Valley's first Live Motor Cycle Shooting Range! Thank you for volunteering to be a target." The deputy, whose duties included preventing illegal off-road use, said he thought it was an excellent idea.

glock_this
07-21-2011, 9:38 AM
Great topic. I have often wondered this as I sell a lot of items - some pricey - on Craiglist and it is not uncommon - depending on price of item - I have a loaded and openly visible pistol on my side just to "send a message". I never reference it or make a point of drawing attention to it, but it is there. And, I often walk a person out into my driveway and front yard to see them off.

a1c
07-21-2011, 9:53 AM
I do agree, but this is California. We shouldn't have to cross those yellow bump mats to enter the grocery store, either. I understand they are there for the sight-impaired (did they drive to the store?), but cause a trip hazard for the rest (99%) of the population.

Common sense doesn't factor into the equation. For your property to be considered "private", you must provide enough of a challenge so that nobody can accidentally wander onto it. It sucks, but how can anyone fight such a mentality?

The concept of "public space" is not unique to California. Everyday we use sidewalks, plazas, alleys that are on private property, but that are considered thoroughfares because they are public spaces.

Dutch3
07-21-2011, 3:01 PM
I once told a deputy I had thought about erecting signs saying "Welcome to Antelope Valley's first Live Motor Cycle Shooting Range! Thank you for volunteering to be a target." The deputy, whose duties included preventing illegal off-road use, said he thought it was an excellent idea.

100 years ago when I was in high school, one of my friends' parents owned some property in Yucca Valley. Some desert acreage with a small house on it. One summer, he invited me and a couple other friends to spend a week out there. His dad was having some health problems and there was work that needed to be done on the property, so I volunteered.

One day, we decided to take a trip up the road that supposedly led from there to Big Bear Lake. As I recall, (it's been 30+ years) it was called Pipes Canyon Rd. Unpaved but graded, some sections graveled.

We took off, and after about 10-15 miles and crossing a few cattle guards, there was a sign on the side of the road.

WARNING!
LOOSE BRAHMA BULLS
STAY IN YOUR CAR!

Nice. Except we were not in a car, we were on motorcycles. We never did see any bulls, but there was a lot of head-swiveling going on. And we stayed on the road. I can say that I was certainly in a high state of pucker.

That sign was a pretty good deterrent. :D