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View Full Version : 80% Forged Receiver Group buy


SemiAutoSam
01-04-2007, 9:23 AM
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ivanimal
01-04-2007, 10:00 AM
I moved the thread as it is not a for sale item rather a group buy request.

SemiAutoSam
01-04-2007, 10:01 AM
Thanks Ivan

AJAX22
01-04-2007, 10:06 AM
What timeframe would we be looking at in terms of payment/ reciept of goods/ use of tooling, and would it be possible to set up some kind of nor-cal/so-cal build party in someone's garage who has the vice/drill press needed to finish off the project. I'm very interested in this, I just want to make sure that I would be able to actually finish it without having to involve a machine shop or buy any large tooling that the fiance wouldn't appriciate havig in the appartment.

SemiAutoSam
01-04-2007, 10:44 AM
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arguy15
01-04-2007, 12:29 PM
I have a jig and tap that I never used. The jig is savesurvivoir one that I bought a few years ago. I have the buffer tap too.. I am willing to part with the jig and tap to the group effort for a very low cost.

taquito971
01-04-2007, 12:50 PM
I voted no. At $120 bucks I can darn near buy a 100% lower. If the price was $20 less shipped and included the capability to go to somebodies house and use their jig for free I'd consider it.

I'd also like to hear some thoughts on why this is legal or not. I was always under the impression it was not legal in CA, but other than the fact that there is no memo (which isn't law, just helpful) I can't understand why or why not.

Brian

mike452
01-04-2007, 1:15 PM
At $120 bucks I can darn near buy a 100% lower.

Totally agree! I got my Mega lower for $120.

What is the estimated cost to finish the 80%? Where are you go to anodize? If I send it out for anodize, I need to get FFL involve? How do I register it when it's ready?

This should be FUN. I just want it to look the same if not better than other lowers and not end-up like my other half-a** home projects.

arguy15
01-04-2007, 1:23 PM
No FFL involved. And registration is a mute issue.

taquito971
01-04-2007, 1:57 PM
No FFL involved. And registration is a mute issue.

Fair enough, why is an 80% reciever more expensive than a 100% one? I mean, with a complete reciever not only is all the standard milling done, it's also finished (anodizing or whatever), has stampings (roll marks, makers marks, etc...) and it holds some sort of warranty against defects and likely some liability with the maker. Why would an 80% reciever cost more (group buy deal aside) without all of that?

Brian

thedonger
01-04-2007, 1:59 PM
I got a Mega for $105 plus shipping and DROS. $110 plus shipping for an 80% seems too much.

-hanko
01-04-2007, 2:35 PM
Fair enough, why is an 80% reciever more expensive than a 100% one? I mean, with a complete reciever not only is all the standard milling done, it's also finished (anodizing or whatever), has stampings (roll marks, makers marks, etc...) and it holds some sort of warranty against defects and likely some liability with the maker. Why would an 80% reciever cost more (group buy deal aside) without all of that?
Brian
a. Looks like William raised his prices.

b. Prices of bare lowers have tended to remain stable.

c. Why?? Interesting to roll your own if you're handy with tools & like a challenge that's not too complex. It's also one less weapon that the government knows about.

d. A lower that's more than 80% complete is considered a firearm by the federales, not sure what the doj thinks;) . It does need to go to an ffl for refinishing, or the builder needs to be present at the anodizer as long as the lower is there. I've done it in one (long day), ask your anodizer what he has scheduled.

-hanko

taquito971
01-04-2007, 2:57 PM
I have no questions about why. I know why, and that's why I'm even interested.

Re-reading my previous posts, I can see where you thought I was asking why would I want one. I assure you, that is not my question. I want one, and I know the reasons behind it (fun, sticks it to "the man", and looks cool with no markings being some of the reasons).

My problem centers around it not being explicitly legal and it bordering on being more expensive than a 100% reciever. I'd like to build my own, I've been interested for a while, but no one can tell me why they think it is or is not legal in CA, and I can't justify it's price being on par with a 100% lower.

I probably wouldn't anodize it, so finishing it (in regards to it's outer coating) is not really an issue to me. Maybe a cast reciever is more in line with what I would be interested in purchasing. I don't have the tools/jig to complete this, so that's a major point in my decision, use of the tools and some moral support drilling the holes would be important to me. At the current price-point I'm solid into the "no" arena though. $120 plus borrowing/renting a jig is more than I'm willing to put into an %80 lower. $100 shipped and a day at somebodies house with a jig is much more inline with my interest level. That is, if somebody could convince me this is legal.

Brian

restless
01-04-2007, 4:57 PM
The only reason I can justify this expense and effort is to build a pistol.:cool:

Anyone know if building your own fixed, 10rd mag pistol is okay?:eek:

grammaton76
01-04-2007, 5:06 PM
Not really interested at this price point, although it's not because I think the price point is too high. It's just that I'd only be interested in it as a "whee, I did it" thing, and I don't feel like tossing that kind of budget into a "whee, I did it" thing for AR's. Already have enough of that kinda stuff for AK's! :p

SemiAutoSam
01-04-2007, 5:16 PM
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taquito971
01-04-2007, 5:49 PM
If anyone knows where to get a better deal on these or knows a better way to achieve the goal. Or if you want to take it over I do have better things to do with my time if there isn't enough interest in doing this.
I'm quite possibly a minority making the majority of the noise. I do not know of any other places making 80% recivers. Possibly more interest could be obtained by lowering the price point and going with a cast reciever? I'm completely unaware of the benefits or downfalls of a cast reciever over a forged reciever, ultimately I know that a forged reciever is stronger and more durable, but as a novelty/gimmick it may garner more interest. Just a thought.

Brian

Matt C
01-04-2007, 5:49 PM
I am interested, but I think it would be a great idea to do this as a build party, outside the state (NV or AZ). The reason being of course to produce a CA legal AR pistol receiver (for a fixed mag build). This is something I really want, if it could be done that way I am very much in.

cornholio1
01-04-2007, 6:14 PM
It looks like price is an issue here. Maybe essential arms wil sell 80%'s?

ADDICTEDto.223LOWERS
01-05-2007, 1:11 AM
dont do it.

http://www.ktordnance.com/kto/USAv1911.pdf

cornholio1
01-05-2007, 11:56 AM
dont do it.

http://www.ktordnance.com/kto/USAv1911.pdf

80%s has been discussed many time on this forum. Its legal, just complete the work yourself.

Matt C
01-05-2007, 12:29 PM
80%s has been discussed many time on this forum. Its legal, just complete the work yourself.

Reading that PDF would seem to indicate otherwise...

taquito971
01-05-2007, 12:31 PM
Reading that PDF would seem to indicate otherwise...
Reading that PDF causes me to think that the seller was selling 80% receivers that were more than 80% complete.

Brian

Matt C
01-05-2007, 2:18 PM
Reading that PDF causes me to think that the seller was selling 80% receivers that were more than 80% complete.

Brian

KTO sells the same 80% receivers as everyone else. The ATF said in that PDF that "only drilling a few hole" made the receiver into a firearm, so it was a firearm. Show me an 80% AR receiver that needs more than that to make it functional.

SemiAutoSam
01-05-2007, 2:26 PM
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Matt C
01-05-2007, 2:40 PM
I'm wondering why they (THE BATF) didn't grab all of the 80% sellers then.

I don't have the head to read through the PDF at the moment Young kids running all over the place and such but. Did they state what law was broken ? title section and or subsection ?

or are they just throwing rocks at KTO ? and as he was the most blatant about how he sold and or was most public about it they latched onto him.

Most likely with the build parties and such.

Yeah, KTO really gave the finger to ATF, doing things like donating profits to JPFO. And, like the predictable bully ATF is, they slammed them hard. A four year investigation to prove what KTO would willingly admit to anyone who asked? Well, at least out tax dollars went to buy some fine billet 80% receivers.

SemiAutoSam
01-05-2007, 2:49 PM
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ADDICTEDto.223LOWERS
01-05-2007, 3:01 PM
his 80% are the same as everyone else but he did have pilot holes drilled to make finding the positions of the holes easier. he didn't submit one to the BATF so they can say what they want about if they consider it a firearm or not =/

taquito971
01-05-2007, 3:03 PM
KTO sells the same 80% receivers as everyone else. The ATF said in that PDF that "only drilling a few hole" made the receiver into a firearm, so it was a firearm. Show me an 80% AR receiver that needs more than that to make it functional.

I can't quote (or search) the PDF very well because it is an image, but there was something in there about the recievers not getting ATF approval (never asked, never granted) because they were more complete than other versions.

Found it, Page 10 near the bottom:
Subject 2 said that it was possible Celata's frames would not qualify for a variance letter because Celata's frames were much more complete.

thefurball
01-05-2007, 3:08 PM
OK... I freely admit I am new to this.

My worry is what happens when the 'government' kicks down the front door and finds a firearm with no maker or serial number marks.

Under which fed/state regulation am I permitted to make a firearm without prior approval from the appropriate regulating body?

I'm not trying to twist short hairs, I just really don't know.

Diablo
01-05-2007, 3:11 PM
I'm in. Let me know the outcome.

ADDICTEDto.223LOWERS
01-05-2007, 3:28 PM
William R Snelling is mentions on page 9. he IS tanneryshop.com . look under about me on tanneryshop.com... dont want to burst your bubbles but i wouldnt touch that company with a 10 feet stick until the whole KTO thing blows over =/

DRH
01-05-2007, 5:11 PM
I seem to remember reading that KTO would have build parties and help his customers finish their 80% receivers on his machinery at his location. This in it's self should not make them firearms, but this might have added to his troubles. Tanneryshop has been around for along time, if the ATFE had issues with their 80% lowers they would have stopped them five years ago.
Do they sell a FAB-10 style closed magwell lower? I can't get an AR style pistol out of my head.

sierratangofoxtrotunion
01-05-2007, 5:50 PM
From everything I've seen, KTO walked the balance beam of "still barely legal" for quite a while. In that PDF, the ATF complains about the short amount of time it took for somebody to complete the receiver. Well, the 80% standard has nothing to do with time, it's got everything to do with the number of steps, to put it simply. They didn't address whether the number of steps they had to do to finish the build was less than 20%.

Also, anodizing can be pricey and time consuming, I'd try John Norrell's "moly resin" http://www.molyresin.com/. A whole gallon of the goop is $150, which would only add a few bucks per receiver. This isn't anodizing, it's something else. Also, I'm too lazy to hit the "search" button right this second, but I seem to remember a couple members on this board having the equipment necessary to anodize on a small to moderate scale. If you guys end up doing a build party, maybe you could set up an anodizing tank, too?

taquito971
01-06-2007, 9:34 PM
Back to a previous topic, assuming building an 80% reciever is legal, is there any possibility of making these into a pistol? Detachable mag? Fixed mag?

Brian