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View Full Version : Another UOC (e) check gone bad, this time in Upland...


Window_Seat
07-15-2011, 3:36 PM
So I came across these 2 videos, and it's posted on the OCDO site... There aren't too many details.

The outspoken UOCer didn't handle it too well either, he was pretty pizzed, and quite mouthy, but I would probably have gotten mouthy too, considering how mouthy and blatantly disrespectful the officers were, eg; "you are a disgrace", and even made a statement as to his honorable service in the Military... I would NEVER make that kind of a statement...

And if this is a dupe, but what isn't now 'days...

_TKT1VB1eUw

rv3pykhjTFY&NR=1

Erik.

Wall Flower
07-15-2011, 3:38 PM
The Trifecta of fundamental rights violations, way to go Upland.

M. Sage
07-15-2011, 3:41 PM
I can't even watch that. I'm screaming obscenities at the video.

paul0660
07-15-2011, 3:43 PM
They just want to get home to their families.

taperxz
07-15-2011, 3:50 PM
When you put your life on the line everyday.... LOL!! I guess we live in different worlds than LE.

choprzrul
07-15-2011, 3:54 PM
Upland PD need a CGF slapdown?

.

choprzrul
07-15-2011, 3:56 PM
I wonder what an organized event would do to tweak that PD's mind?

Send in these 2 guys to that exact location again. Have 50 more UOC folks standing off out of sight in vans in the parking lot. Wait for PD to show up and detain, and then approach and encircle in mass for 'constitutional monitoring'.

.

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 3:58 PM
Get a PRAR gone, so one knows for certain what information they were acting upon. Upland PD needs to review Terry v Ohio and People v Delong.

MP301
07-15-2011, 4:11 PM
They just want to get home to their families.

That is a cop out (no pun intended) to situations like this - if the caller didnt identify a crime or threat.

The fact that these guys had guns, absent anything else indicating there was a crime committed or about to be committed...means they dont get to point guns at people, prone them out, etc. They dont get to detain you for several minutes while they run you and your property in the computer.

And we all know recording public people in a public place is legal in this state. that was a dumb move on the officers part.

Job too dangerous? Get another. They are doing that job because they like the danger anyway....or at least they did when they started.


That said, this isnt going anywhere. The "Open Carry Club" probably dont have an attorney on retainer. :p

safewaysecurity
07-15-2011, 4:11 PM
Maybe that officer yelling at the guy about knowing caselaw should know it himself and that exigency does not apply in a circumstance where the subject is out in public and is behaving lawfully and that they cannot detain someone without reasonable suspicion of a crime being committed and they had none. Those cops are straight up *******s.

paul0660
07-15-2011, 4:13 PM
That is a cop out (no pun intended) to situations like this - if the caller didnt identify a crime or threat.

The fact that these guys had guns, absent anything else indicating there was a crime committed or about to be committed...means they dont get to point guns at people, prone them out, etc. They dont get to detain you for several minutes while they run you and your property iun the computer.

And we all know recording public people in a public place is legal in this state. that was a dumb move on the officers part.

That said, this isnt going anywhere. The "Open Carry Club" probably dont have an attorney on retainer. :p

Sorry. Check your sarcasometer batteries.

taperxz
07-15-2011, 4:14 PM
Sorry. Check your sarcasometer batteries.

+100^^^ LOL

CharAznable
07-15-2011, 4:20 PM
And folks wonder why police sometimes aren't popular. I'm sure treating a law-abiding veteran like they did is really what "Protect and Serve" means. Or, like it said on Barricade in the first Transformers movie, "To punish and enslave..."

Krak
07-15-2011, 4:21 PM
Upland PD need a CGF slapdown?

.

Yep

safewaysecurity
07-15-2011, 4:22 PM
I'm glad the officer was at least honest about his feelings about transparency of government.

lrcasey
07-15-2011, 4:24 PM
Wow that was amazing! How frustrating for those guys. You are in the right and there is absolutely nothing that you can do.

safewaysecurity
07-15-2011, 4:25 PM
And folks wonder why police sometimes aren't popular. I'm sure treating a law-abiding veteran like they did is really what "Protect and Serve" means. Or, like it said on Barricade in the first Transformers movie, "To punish and enslave..."

Oh no he's a disgrace to the marine corps don't you remember? The officer pissing on the constitution told him so...

SanPedroShooter
07-15-2011, 4:27 PM
I cant even watch stuff like this. Is it me or are those cops completely unprofessional? Do they need to stoop to a yelling match and name calling? They seem like total bullys. I would be tempted to tell him to take off his shiny badge so we could settle our dispute the old fashioned way.

Those cops are punks.

phalanxbl
07-15-2011, 4:27 PM
Imagine how "average" folks would feel if anytime someone was exercising their 1A rights, other people called the cops on them and the cops treated them like criminals...

Why is it that a person can stand in public and freely express their ideas, and that's OK, but as soon as you exercise your 2A rights, people go bonkers?

eaglemike
07-15-2011, 4:30 PM
Maybe these guys need to meet Mr Davis? (see Wolanyk vs San Diego)

Window_Seat
07-15-2011, 4:33 PM
Oops... I forgot to ask everyone here to refrain from cop bashing... AS bad as this (e) check went, please, let's keep the bashing to a minimum or zero so this can stay here.

Erik.

CavTrooper
07-15-2011, 4:36 PM
Maybe these guys need to meet Mr Davis? (see Wolanyk vs San Diego)

Wont do any good as its not these guys who will personally suffer. When it becomes personally painful to violate a persons Constitutional rights things might start to change.

taperxz
07-15-2011, 4:37 PM
Oops... I forgot to ask everyone here to refrain from cop bashing... AS bad as this (e) check went, please, let's keep the bashing to a minimum or zero so this can stay here.

Erik.

Erik, I would not construe any of this as cop bashing, however we must scrutinize these LEO's. That is the point of the thread, isn't it?

Besides, in this case the LEO's in the vid earned it.

SanPedroShooter
07-15-2011, 4:40 PM
Of course we didnt see what was going on before the camera turned on, but those officers were angry, rude and belligerent right from the start. I expect more professionalism out of Peace Officers, at least until there is cause to start getting aggressive.

They seemed like they showed up pissed and were gonna come down on these guys hard no matter what. And then the arguing starts... how hard is it to e check and be on your way? Do you need to verbally confront and argue with every mouthy suspect that you come across? The whole thing escalates from their actions and attitude. It doesnt seem like a good way to control a situation.

Saigon1965
07-15-2011, 4:42 PM
Agree - City paid out -

Wont do any good as its not these guys who will personally suffer. When it becomes personally painful to violate a persons Constitutional rights things might start to change.

Bhobbs
07-15-2011, 4:42 PM
In before the LEO apologists.

Josh3239
07-15-2011, 4:44 PM
Completely unprofessional. Looks like Upland PD needs to clean house. Really f-d up.

Window_Seat
07-15-2011, 4:44 PM
Erik, I would not construe any of this as cop bashing, however we must scrutinize these LEO's. That is the point of the thread, isn't it?

Besides, in this case the LEO's in the vid earned it.

Yes, acknowledge, and agreed, no harm, but asking that we keep it to a minimum, and as far as holding them accountable, I agree as well.

Erik.

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 4:46 PM
Wont do any good as its not these guys who will personally suffer. When it becomes personally painful to violate a persons Constitutional rights things might start to change.

Absent information contained in the call for service to indicate otherwise, it appears that the officers involved in the apparent 4th A violations would be subject to personal financial liabilities. http://www.google.com/m/url?client=ms-android-verizon&ei=jt8gTvDjGITUsAfxgZn4AQ&gl=us&hl=en&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_immunity&source=android-browser-type&ved=0CBQQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNH93vo3RklFJ_rAPr_sd0yA9Lu6wQ

The 4th A is 'clearly established' in regards to police stops/detentions. See Terry v Ohio.

In Richards v Harris the officer who conducted the 12031e PC check / 4th A violation is being personally sued by CGF: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Richards_v._Harris

gobler
07-15-2011, 4:49 PM
:mad::mad::mad::mad: I'm truly stunned and beyond pissed. Upland PD needs some swift judicial *** kicking!!

IGOTDIRT4U
07-15-2011, 4:50 PM
Maybe these guys need to meet Mr Davis? (see Wolanyk vs San Diego)

My thoughts exactly. The ground work is already done, just need to file the complaint with a simple change of a few names and facts.

InGrAM
07-15-2011, 4:50 PM
Wow, just outright disrespectful on the police side. I don't blame the UOP for his attitude. This is exactly why I would never UOC. It just takes one gung-ho cop to end it all.

Tripper
07-15-2011, 4:53 PM
that's the worst in officers conduct I've seen in a while.
I wont say the guy wasn't an a$ too, but still, there is no excuse for the LEO to act that way.
not a good representation of Law Enforcement.
I wouldn't recommend him as spokesperson for porac

Tripper
07-15-2011, 4:53 PM
that's the worst in officers conduct I've seen in a while.
I wont say the guy wasn't an a$ too, but still, there is no excuse for the LEO to act that way.
not a good representation of Law Enforcement.
I wouldn't recommend him as spokesperson for porac

Tripper
07-15-2011, 4:54 PM
not too sure I'd want kelly as a spokesperson either though

IGOTDIRT4U
07-15-2011, 5:02 PM
that's the worst in officers conduct I've seen in a while.
I wont say the guy wasn't an a$ too, but still, there is no excuse for the LEO to act that way.
not a good representation of Law Enforcement.
I wouldn't recommend him as spokesperson for porac

Video number one sinks them (LEO) completely, though. And during the three violations of his rights, he remains calm in Vid 1 and consistent about his rights. That's all he needs. Vid 2 just shows his frustration, but since that was not the basis for the PD call, wasn't a reason to start the detention nor was it ever anything more as far as what the poice were doing, a reasonable Judge wouldn't care about the attitude in Vid 2.

bigcalidave
07-15-2011, 5:04 PM
Isn't the act of turning off the camcorder the worst part of this encounter? It's bordering on assault I believe.

paul0660
07-15-2011, 5:09 PM
Video number one sinks them (LEO) completely, though. And during the three violations of his rights, he remains calm in Vid 1 and consistent about his rights. That's all he needs. Vid 2 just shows his frustration, but since that was not the basis for the PD call, wasn't a reason to start the detention nor was it ever anything more as far as what the poice were doing, a reasonable Judge wouldn't care about the attitude in Vid 2.

That is the way I see it. Hands up, turn around, on your knees, officer safety, show me your ID.

I do think OC'ers are mouthy punks, but they, in every case, I would imagine, can't get CCW permits because of where they live. I really do want cops to get home to their families, so they can play ball, yell at them or cheat on their wives or whatever they do like the rest of us, but that get home card is as funky as the race card is.

Tripper
07-15-2011, 5:10 PM
one could go as far as suggesting the officer threatened him, when he suggested that open carry could get him hurt.
if it were someone saying the same to an officer, i'm sure it would have been considered a threat.

i mean, the officer clearly violated other rights, its not really far reaching to think he could have been threatening him if he were to see it again in the future

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 5:10 PM
Isn't the act of turning off the camcorder the worst part of this encounter? It's bordering on assault I believe.

The handcuffing is battery if done absent lawful authority. Not to mention felony false imprisonment PC 236...

HisDivineShadow
07-15-2011, 5:12 PM
Wow....unbelievable. That is the town next to mine. Upland is a pretty nice place, and I've never had any issues with their PD.:( I hope the city/PD pays and the officers get fired.

WDE91
07-15-2011, 5:19 PM
Its going to be interesting to see as the information gets gathered together and the legal eagles get involved

Tagged to watch

Tripper
07-15-2011, 5:21 PM
no, not fired,
10000 hours community service.
escorting, non-profit UOC groups at any and all times, to ensure they dont get screwed with
then get fired, then pay back the money to the cash strapped agency/city/county/state

wheels
07-15-2011, 5:21 PM
Wow, just outright disrespectful on the police side. I don't blame the UOP for his attitude. This is exactly why I would never UOC. It just takes one gung-ho cop to end it all.

It's pretty hard to put yourself in the UOC's shoes - stress wise. I imagine most LEO might get a little tongue tied or stressed out if 5 UOC'er surrounded a LEO, even without guns drawn.

paul0660
07-15-2011, 5:26 PM
I imagine most LEO might get a little tongue tied or stressed out if 5 UOC'er surrounded a LEO, even without guns drawn.

Are you saying that happened in this case, or are you just beginning the FUD?

wheels
07-15-2011, 5:45 PM
Are you saying that happened in this case, or are you just beginning the FUD?

My point is that some are belittling the UOC'r in this case. I think he was royally pissed after several abuses of authority in this case and continued harassment by an arrogant LEO.

If that is FUD, then congratulations you've been accepted to the FUD police. I'll get your badge in the mail to you.

proclone1
07-15-2011, 5:52 PM
Are you saying that happened in this case, or are you just beginning the FUD?

I think he was giving a parallel situation to the UOC's getting flustered and mouthy by saying "what if there was a cop who was surrounded by 5 UOC's, how would that cop feel being put on the spot and would he still be able to main absolute professionalism and say 100% of the right things that would later hold up in court as lawful language?" (at least that's how I understood what he was saying!)

My own opinion on the situation: Not knowing what the scenario was before the start of the video, it seemed to me like the cops knew immediately that they were just UOC'ing, and then the cop starts talking some awful big words and he begins to lecture the UOC-guy on Unloaded Open Carrying!! In fact, he starts it off with a negative predisposition to it: "The problem with you open carriers...". Right there he basically gives his prejudice away, and on camera no less. Combine that with his on-the-spot legal lesson, and he can no longer claim ignorance to save his job.

This was a complete 180* to the other UOC video that was posted with the guy on the beach greeting and shaking hands with the 3 patrol officers who told him to have a nice day. It's clear that the LEO in this thread's video is simply there to be a bully.

BigDogatPlay
07-15-2011, 5:53 PM
So here comes the LEO apologist.... not.

While the nature / phrasing of the call which triggered the police response is not known, and can only be assumed, clearly the officers involved were out of line. That was not a well handled contact, right from the start.

Yes, the OC'ers were somewhat out of line as well. But the flash of anger and the grabbing of the video device by one of the officers in the first clip is inexcusable. There was no cause, that I see, for a restrained detention. Clearly at least one of the officers, and perhaps the sergeant as well, have some issues to work out.

There is no way, as a former LEO, I could accept their actions as being within the lines.

SanPedroShooter
07-15-2011, 5:55 PM
Those flashes of uncontroled anger are what scare me the most. It reeks of loose cannon...

We ask a lot from our police, and I am willing to cut major slack, especially when dealing with the type of scum I see in LA, but this whole thing was like watching kids on the playground with guns...

Tripper
07-15-2011, 6:05 PM
hey, bigdog, i think their lucky your not in charge, unfortunately.
as usual, nothing will happen, which em-bolsters them, and it continues to occur, if a few officers doing things like this would actually be held accountable, it would stop.

wheels
07-15-2011, 6:14 PM
I think he was giving a parallel situation to the UOC's getting flustered and mouthy by saying "what if there was a cop who was surrounded by 5 UOC's, how would that cop feel being put on the spot and would he still be able to main absolute professionalism and say 100% of the right things that would later hold up in court as lawful language?" (at least that's how I understood what he was saying!)

My own opinion on the situation: Not knowing what the scenario was before the start of the video, it seemed to me like the cops knew immediately that they were just UOC'ing, and then the cop starts talking some awful big words and he begins to lecture the UOC-guy on Unloaded Open Carrying!! In fact, he starts it off with a negative predisposition to it: "The problem with you open carriers...". Right there he basically gives his prejudice away, and on camera no less. Combine that with his on-the-spot legal lesson, and he can no longer claim ignorance to save his job.

This was a complete 180* to the other UOC video that was posted with the guy on the beach greeting and shaking hands with the 3 patrol officers who told him to have a nice day. It's clear that the LEO in this thread's video is simply there to be a bully.

Thanks - my point exactly, when you compare the two events you referenced I'm pretty sure I would be livid in this guys shoes.

Riodog
07-15-2011, 6:18 PM
While the majority of you won't agree with me- which is fine- I just wonder what the point of this entire episode is. If the point is just that the "clown" wanted attention, then he got it and I sincerely hope that the CGF doesn't waste 1 dime.

If the said "clown" was legitimately trying to accomplish something positive and 'educate' either the public or the police officers (and dept), then maybe a phone call or a visit to the pd before hand might have left a better taste in the mouth of all parties. Instead of a public display such as this if some one dropped a dime to the pd the operator might have come back with "yes maam, we know about this and they are legal and not a problem".

No matter what his 'right' is, said "clown" went about it in the wrong manner and I hope all LEOs don't judge the rest of us that way.

Plus 1 for Officer Durant.
Rio

luckystrike
07-15-2011, 6:30 PM
and people wonder why cops are so hated by some.

major disgrace on upland pd. they need to go about fixing their reputation for being meth capital of the world before they give people crap like that and tell a Marine that he is a disgrace to the Corps for open carrying.

Bhobbs
07-15-2011, 6:31 PM
Rio are you LEO?

armygunsmith
07-15-2011, 6:32 PM
I can't even watch that. I'm screaming obscenities at the video.

I'm with you on this one.

wheels
07-15-2011, 6:33 PM
While the majority of you won't agree with me- which is fine- I just wonder what the point of this entire episode is. If the point is just that the "clown" wanted attention, then he got it and I sincerely hope that the CGF doesn't waste 1 dime.

If the said "clown" was legitimately trying to accomplish something positive and 'educate' either the public or the police officers (and dept), then maybe a phone call or a visit to the pd before hand might have left a better taste in the mouth of all parties. Instead of a public display such as this if some one dropped a dime to the pd the operator might have come back with "yes maam, we know about this and they are legal and not a problem".

No matter what his 'right' is, said "clown" went about it in the wrong manner and I hope all LEOs don't judge the rest of us that way.

Plus 1 for Officer Durant.
Rio

When you say it like that "Officer Durant vs the clown", that clears it all up.

paul0660
07-15-2011, 6:35 PM
I think he was giving a parallel situation to the UOC's getting flustered and mouthy by saying "what if there was a cop who was surrounded by 5 UOC's, how would that cop feel being put on the spot and would he still be able to main absolute professionalism and say 100% of the right things that would later hold up in court as lawful language?" (at least that's how I understood what he was saying!)

If that was what was meant, now I get it.

I guess I need new batteries as well.

Sniper3142
07-15-2011, 6:35 PM
More THUGS with BADGES on Film.

:mad:

I really hope I never run into one of these JBTs. I won't be nearly as nice or as civil!!

rjh4758
07-15-2011, 6:42 PM
Two wrongs don't make a right.

The police over reacted and the guy recording taunted the officers.:boxing_smiley:

Tripper
07-15-2011, 6:42 PM
c'mon rio
are you seriously suggesting, that we all call the local PD, for things we do
like, when i decide to go to the range, someone might see me put my rifle in my trunk, I should call.
when i leave the range, i should call to let them know what road i'll be traveling
when i go get ammo, i should let them know, after all its ammo for the firearm i legally have, oh, when i grab my bible to go to church, and stop at the local coffee shop, should i call them and let them know ill be handing out fliers for the sunday brunch at the church, while openly carrying my bible, in my custom made belt holder (holster maybe).
those calling 911 absent a crime or emergency should be fined for it
it is a crime in CA to call 911 when there is not an emergency
what reasonable explanation is there to justify to the populace that they should call the local PD to do something that is completely legal, whether it be a gun or a bible, try it with bibles and see how far that gets.

how can you plus 1 for officer durant
please explain that one

Tripper
07-15-2011, 6:43 PM
said clown needs no justification for his actions, as he was being completely legal as far as anyone can tell.
the officer is who needs to justify his actions, clown was simply in response to unlawful actions of the officer no matter how you look at it.

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 6:48 PM
Plus 1 for Officer Durant.
Rio

10-74 Rio :p DuraN and his Sgt. overstepped their lawful authority even under Ca Law: People v DeLong. Under federal law they violated the 4th A. under Terry v Ohio and Arizona v Hicks (and maybe Hiibel v. Nevada) at the least. And based solely on a dept. policy violation I'd say he was rude.

Who cares what a private person says to us, out job is to be professional peace officers not opinion officers IMO.

choprzrul
07-15-2011, 6:53 PM
It sure would be nice to have several UOC reaction teams. 50 UOC'rs travel to these locations that need re-education. 2 or 3 people on cameras from different angles.

Send out 2 or 3 members to the exact location and then wait for the PD to show up. Proceed to surround the PD with 4 dozen other UOC'rs and then have a CGF lawyer walk through the circle. Let the education begin.

How long would it take for the word to get out to the PD community to not disrespect UOC'rs?

.

nitroxdiver
07-15-2011, 6:54 PM
I am so freaking discusted right now watching video 1. Those officers WAY overreacted.
I hope they sue the city and the officers involved. Very unprofessional.

stag6.8
07-15-2011, 6:56 PM
That is the way I see it. Hands up, turn around, on your knees, officer safety, show me your ID.

I do think OC'ers are mouthy punks, but they, in every case, I would imagine, can't get CCW permits because of where they live. I really do want cops to get home to their families, so they can play ball, yell at them or cheat on their wives or whatever they do like the rest of us, but that get home card is as funky as the race card is.

I saw the video ....both sides were out of line I agree....I want to know what you mean by race card...The oc`ers by what I saw were both caucasian as well as the officers involved....except for the officer talking on video. Did the officer use racist remarks......no....yes they do want to get home....they dont make the rules to enforce( I know that for a fact) the superiors do. Thats why I dont UOC....its too dangerous...

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 6:58 PM
While the majority of you won't agree with me- which is fine- I just wonder what the point of this entire episode is.
Rio

The point is being left unmolested for lawful activity. This was no set up or bait situation. Americans lawfully possessing firearms is the point.

Many of us may not agree with the tactics of UOC as a political act in this state at this time with the current state of the jurisprudence, but the point remains the same: Free Americans should not be detained and searched by police for no crime and officers should not violate their oaths!

Tripper
07-15-2011, 6:58 PM
ok ok
all of you deserve it
I'm taking a break from this thread
I promise not to post for umm, as long as i can hold out
an hour maybe

right after this message

I think having 50 UOC'rs show up at something like that could seriously turn out really bad

i think they would have a really good case of 'felt like their lives were being threatened'

hmm, not sure how that could legally be done absent a threatening manner of any kind, i'll think about that on my hour break from this thread.

choprzrul
07-15-2011, 7:01 PM
ok ok
all of you deserve it
I'm taking a break from this thread
I promise not to post for umm, as long as i can hold out
an hour maybe

right after this message

I think having 50 UOC'rs show up at something like that could seriously turn out really bad

i think they would have a really good case of 'felt like their lives were being threatened'

hmm, not sure how that could legally be done absent a threatening manner of any kind, i'll think about that on my hour break from this thread.

Are you suggesting that those LEO would initiate violence against law abiding citizens simply for exercising their fundamental, individual, constitutionally enumerated civil rights? WOW, how jacked up is that???

.

Window_Seat
07-15-2011, 7:02 PM
I personally feel that the most negatively egregious aspect of this misconduct by Officer Durant & others was where this happened:

and people wonder why cops are so hated by some.

major disgrace on upland pd. they need to go about fixing their reputation for being meth capital of the world before they give people crap like that and tell a Marine that he is a disgrace to the Corps for open carrying.

ETA:

Having observed all of what's been said (and saying what's on my mind), there was an interesting point that was made sometime back on the OCDO site by someone who was commenting on the Philly PD vs. OCer incident... She stated that the last time law enforcement acted this way at the sight of a person or persons exercising certain Constitutional rights was when inter-racial marriage became legalized. Just an observation that I feel is interesting, but I wonder how long it took back then for the Government to begin to accept the idea of inter-racial couples getting married.

Erik.

Oceanbob
07-15-2011, 7:03 PM
It sure would be nice to have several UOC reaction teams. 50 UOC'rs travel to these locations that need re-education. 2 or 3 people on cameras from different angles.

Send out 2 or 3 members to the exact location and then wait for the PD to show up. Proceed to surround the PD with 4 dozen other UOC'rs and then have a CGF lawyer walk through the circle. Let the education begin.

How long would it take for the word to get out to the PD community to not disrespect UOC'rs?

.

Damn good idea.!...

I was in Traffic Court in Rancho Cucamonga on a speeding ticket a few years ago. Even the Judge was fed up with Upland Police and their mickey-mouse ticket writing spree. He threw out a ticket given to a women who was just pulling out of her parking spot and had rolled about 3 feet before turning on her headlights. An Upland Cop zipped in and wrote her a ticket for driving in the dark without her headlights on. The Judge scolded the Upland Police Dept and dismissed the ticket. The entire Courtroom laughed out loud. :D

The entire TOWN is arrogant; they even refused an OFF RAMP from the 210 Freeway......and suffer today from a loss of business traffic (most of Upland is a GHOST TOWN).

Be well
Bob

M. Sage
07-15-2011, 7:09 PM
I can't even watch that. I'm screaming obscenities at the video.

Let me clarify... I was actually screaming obscenities at the cop in the video.

12031(e) is a huge reason why I will never come back to CA.

hammerhands32
07-15-2011, 7:16 PM
I'm liking the lady at the end of the second vid. I didn't know you could call 911 about LE on duty.......

choprzrul
07-15-2011, 7:22 PM
I'm liking the lady at the end of the second vid. I didn't know you could call 911 about LE on duty.......

"....I want to report an assault & kidnapping in progress at ...."

:D:D:D

.

paul0660
07-15-2011, 7:25 PM
I saw the video ....both sides were out of line I agree....I want to know what you mean by race card...The oc`ers by what I saw were both caucasian as well as the officers involved....except for the officer talking on video. Did the officer use racist remarks......no....yes they do want to get home....they dont make the rules to enforce( I know that for a fact) the superiors do. Thats why I dont UOC....its too dangerous...

I hope SOMEONE understood my reference. Minorities sometimes use a "race card" which implies racism on the part of whomever they are disagreeing with, no matter what the issue. Cops use the "get home to see my family" card to abrogate parts of the constitution.

I want to get home to see my family too. Difference is, I make one mistake, even if incorrectly perceived, and I am in the pokey. A cop, apparently, can make several and get home just fine.

choprzrul
07-15-2011, 7:31 PM
Can someone educate me? If those 2 guys had been carrying with the slide locked back with the chamber & mag well plainly visible, how would the PD justify removing the weapon from the holster?

stag6.8
07-15-2011, 7:34 PM
I hope SOMEONE understood my reference. Minorities sometimes use a "race card" which implies racism on the part of whomever they are disagreeing with, no matter what the issue. Cops use the "get home to see my family" card to abrogate parts of the constitution.

I want to get home to see my family too. Difference is, I make one mistake, even if incorrectly perceived, and I am in the pokey. A cop, apparently, can make several and get home just fine.

Its the same for minorities too(for making one mistake)...how many times you`ve seen a minority UOC....ZERO....and you never will either...This video is the reason why.

CitaDeL
07-15-2011, 7:34 PM
Can someone educate me? If those 2 guys had been carrying with the slide locked back with the chamber & mag well plainly visible, how would the PD justify removing the weapon from the holster?

Wouldnt have made a difference-- they believed that they had probable cause to run serials for wants, and did so.

paul0660
07-15-2011, 7:40 PM
Its the same for minorities too(for making one mistake)...how many times you`ve seen a minority UOC....ZERO....and you never will either...This video is the reason why.

dMMOKjv3WB0

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 7:40 PM
Wouldnt have made a difference-- they believed that they had probable cause to run serials for wants, and did so.

They knew they had no RAS or PC. They believed they had the power to detain under CA law for NO CRIME and exercised it under color of authority.

choprzrul
07-15-2011, 7:44 PM
They knew they had no RAS or PC. They believed they had the power to detain under CA law for NO CRIME and exercised it under color of authority.

So why are they individually no liable under CA civil code 52.3:

(a) No governmental authority, or agent of a governmental
authority, or person acting on behalf of a governmental authority,
shall engage in a pattern or practice of conduct by law enforcement
officers that deprives any person of rights, privileges, or
immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the
United States or by the Constitution or laws of California.
(b) The Attorney General may bring a civil action in the name of
the people to obtain appropriate equitable and declaratory relief to
eliminate the pattern or practice of conduct specified in subdivision
(a), whenever the Attorney General has reasonable cause to believe
that a violation of subdivision (a) has occurred.

.

stag6.8
07-15-2011, 7:46 PM
dMMOKjv3WB0

interesting indeed.....I never saw that video before....but he was carrying it during daylight hours...lets see another video of him carrying at night....when its needed the most....nope..not going to happen...Id rather fight for a ccw.

paul0660
07-15-2011, 7:49 PM
interesting indeed.....I never saw that video before....but he was carrying it during daylight hours...lets see another video of him carrying at night....when its needed the most.

Geez, change the rules much?

I actually think that vid makes your point, because the exception proves the rule.

CitaDeL
07-15-2011, 7:50 PM
Wouldnt have made a difference-- they believed that they had probable cause to run serials for wants, and did so.

They knew they had no RAS or PC. They believed they had the power to detain under CA law for NO CRIME and exercised it under color of authority.

Im sorry- I dont make a distinction between the two bolded comments because Im certain the blue line would have (and may still) concoct a storyline that supports RAS or PC to search where they shouldnt.

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 7:53 PM
So why are they individually no liable under CA civil code 52.3:



.

Federal Law is where the more clear remedy is via 42 USC 1983.

Richards v Harris for example:

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Richards_v._Harris

The suit asks for:

a declaratory judgment and/or injunctive relief that California Penal Code § 12276.1 is unconstitutional.

a declaratory judgment and/or injunctive relief that California Penal Code § 12031(e) is unconstitutional.

a declaratory judgment and/or prospective injunctive relief to compel Defendants KAMALA HARRIS and the CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE to issue appropriate memorandums and/or bulletins to the State’s District Attorneys and Law Enforcement Agencies to prevent wrongful arrests.

injunctive relief against CITY OF ROHNERT PARK and OFFICER BECKER to prevent future violations of the Fourth Amendment.

Damages from CITY OF ROHNERT PARK and OFFICER BECKER

Court costs

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 7:57 PM
Im sorry- I dont make a distinction between the two bolded comments because Im certain the blue line would have (and may still) concoct a storyline that supports RAS or PC to search where they shouldnt.

One would be acting in good faith if they thought RAS/PC existed through information and belief, the other is just an unlawful detention false imprisonment.

If it's not described in the call for service, they don't have it absent their own observations. Even RAS only allows for detentions for investigation (Terry Stop), not for searches, demands for ID, and Warrants/wants checks absent consent.

stag6.8
07-15-2011, 8:01 PM
Geez, change the rules much?

I actually think that vid makes your point, because the exception proves the rule.

I do agree with what you posted....youre right...a minority practicing UOC...Ive never seen that before. Im just thinking of the video from my standpoint...would I do that at odd times at night(I work odd hours). nope....Its just my opinion...imagine if that happened in upland at night..

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 8:02 PM
interesting indeed.....I never saw that video before....but he was carrying it during daylight hours...lets see another video of him carrying at night....when its needed the most....nope..not going to happen...Id rather fight for a ccw.

He passed away, RIP our American RKBA Brother.:79:

aIlKTJ3PygI

pieeater
07-15-2011, 8:02 PM
This guy is wounded military?? He seemed all flustered and jacked up talking to the cops in front of gamestop. What was he like in an ambush or firefight??

stix213
07-15-2011, 8:03 PM
I'm not a fan of the urban OC thing, but the officer conduct was ridiculous. "No I don't believe in transparency of government" says about everything you need to know about these particular fascists.

I don't believe the vast majority of officers in this state are represented here, just some bad apples.

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 8:07 PM
I'm not a fan of the urban OC thing, but the officer conduct was ridiculous...

I don't believe the vast majority of officers in this state are represented here, just some bad apples.

Yes but some departments have too many of that kind. I've worked with a few. :(

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 8:11 PM
This guy is wounded military?? He seemed all flustered and jacked up talking to the cops in front of gamestop. What was he like in an ambush or firefight??

It's one thing to do the job you are trained to do as part of a team. Being detained by LE for No Crime and being dressed down by LE is something most normal people are not prepared for. After all we grow up trusting and believing in them to act properly.

desertdweller
07-15-2011, 8:12 PM
I watched the first video and couldn't get through more than half of the second...

Officer Duran - Thank you for trying to have a conversation and keeping your cool. Hopefully you won't turn off video the next time, though.

To the guy shooting the video - STFU. You are an irritating SOB. This reminds me of the guy who was going through a Border Patrol checkpoint with his camera running and refusing all officer orders like open the window to talk and making an impossible situation and refusing a two way conversation.

Of course we have our rights, but so do officers. I don't think they should have 'cuffed them, but we have to realize that the PD wants to be safe as well.

jl123
07-15-2011, 8:16 PM
I watched the first video and couldn't get through more than half of the second...

Officer Duran - Thank you for trying to have a conversation and keeping your cool. Hopefully you won't turn off video the next time, though.

To the guy shooting the video - STFU. You are an irritating SOB. This reminds me of the guy who was going through a Border Patrol checkpoint with his camera running and refusing all officer orders like open the window to talk and making an impossible situation and refusing a two way conversation.

Of course we have our rights, but so do officers. I don't think they should have 'cuffed them, but we have to realize that the PD wants to be safe as well.

I'm no fan of Pastor Anderson and his band of merry idiots, but he was right on that one.

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 8:23 PM
Of course we have our rights, but so do officers. I don't think they should have 'cuffed them, but we have to realize that the PD wants to be safe as well.

Individuals have rights. Government officers have powers. Where there is no RAS to detain/investigate officers have no power. What did they need to be safe from? Lawful American gun carriers suspected of no crime?

753X0
07-15-2011, 8:28 PM
garbage. This is unmitigated civil rights abuse. I've been on both sides of the gun-pointing equation, and this 455-hat Durant-Durant was out to lunch. He should seek employment at Chuck-E-Cheese.
And I believe his offense would be battery, not assault.

The Shadow
07-15-2011, 8:31 PM
Just a heads up, Upland PD goes through the SBSD academy, as does Ontario PD. I'm not sure if Rodney Jones, the Chief of Fontana PD sends his people to Riverside or San Bernardino. I know Jones went through Riverside, and I know Chino used to send their people through Riverside, but that might have also changed.

The point I'm making is that maybe you should open carry in Rancho Cucamonga and see what happens. SBSD patrols that city, and those guys can be @$$hats as well. That might help answer a lot of questions.

paul0660
07-15-2011, 8:32 PM
Officer Duran - Thank you for trying to have a conversation and keeping your cool.

You watched the first one? It sure sounded like baiting to me, on the cop's part.

I don't think they should have 'cuffed them,

Shouldn't have done a lot of stuff, the cuffing being the last.

I know the BP checkpoint vids to which you refer, and I agree that those civilians, much like those in the videos we are talking about, are pushy showoffs. I take the side of the cops all the time, but these Upland cops need some education.

the PD wants to be safe as well.

Asked and answered. There are rules, and just because a cop wants to break the law of the land and the state to feel "safer", he can't.

paul0660
07-15-2011, 8:35 PM
Just a heads up, Upland PD goes through the SBSD academy, as does Ontario PD. I'm not sure if Rodney Jones, the Chief of Fontana PD sends his people to Riverside of San Bernardino. I know Jones went through Riverside, and I know Chino used to send their people through Riverside, but that might have also changed.

The point I'm making is that maybe you should open carry in Rancho Cucamonga and see what happens. SBSD patrols that city, and those guys can be @$$hats as well. That might help answer a lot of questions.

You know a lot about cop stuff, and what does it have to do with the question at hand? Are you ok with what happened in the video, or are you saying that if it is worse somewhere else it is ok in Upland?

Most confusing post I have read this year, but again, congrats on pointless knowledge.

The Shadow
07-15-2011, 8:42 PM
You know a lot about cop stuff, and what does it have to do with the question at hand? Are you ok with what happened in the video, or are you saying that if it is worse somewhere else it is ok in Upland?

Most confusing post I have read this year, but again, congrats on pointless knowledge.

No, I'm saying that I'm appalled at the treatment of those guys who were doing a legal thing, but I'm not surprised. Someone needs to lock Upland PD's, and especially Duran's heels. That moron is an absolute as:censored:le, and this should be challenged by whoever can do it.

It's no surprise that they act that way because that's the way they're treated at the academy. They're trying to get a reputation as bad@SSes, and they need to be shown the error of their ways.

As for knowing a lot of stuff, let's just say I like to educate myself on stuff like this. ;)

FailedAngrMgmt
07-15-2011, 8:55 PM
the cluster was the fault of all parties involved...no one conducted business the way they should of. cant side with either.

http://trailerfest.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/mclovin.jpg

^^^ all i kept thinking of when he kept talking over the officer.

wheels
07-15-2011, 8:57 PM
I'd give $1000 to see a video like this that ends with a federal LEO taking the CA LEO into custody for violating civil rights. Yeah, I can dream big...

wildhawker
07-15-2011, 9:02 PM
I wonder what they'd do with a [locked] red cable lock through the barrel and chamber of a UOC handgun...

Or a plain black, locked Pelican in the possession of a UOCer with firearm at hip...

Dark Mod
07-15-2011, 9:03 PM
God i wish these guys werent talking back so much and making it such a scene. The cops were obviously morons but it seemed like they were just escalating things when some tact would have been in order.

Even though they cant go after the officers personally, i hope they sue the city. You better believe that a city losing a law suit will result in some swift education for the entire department

Just let us have CCW and this wouldnt even be a problem

sandman21
07-15-2011, 9:08 PM
It's so nice to see blatant civil rights volitions, and some people here think that is acceptable behavior. Disgraceful. :rolleyes:

ArmyMedicMoose
07-15-2011, 9:10 PM
These guys are tools!!

sandman21
07-15-2011, 9:12 PM
God i wish these guys werent talking back so much and making it such a scene. The cops were obviously morons but it seemed like they were just escalating things when some tact would have been in order.

Even though they cant go after the officers personally, i hope they sue the city. You better believe that a city losing a law suit will result in some swift education for the entire department

Just let us have CCW and this wouldnt even be a problem

Right getting CCW is going to solve everything...... So when it prints and its called in they will treat the CCWer with so much love and respect. :rolleyes:

Those LEO violated well established 4A law they can and should be personally held responsible.

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 9:17 PM
...i hope they sue the city. You better believe that a city losing a law suit will result in some swift education for the entire department



Before CGF http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=347348

After CGF http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=453630

Tripper
07-15-2011, 9:18 PM
okay, whew, that wasnt easy, waiting a whole hour to post again.
and chopper, that was just mean to try and entice me into coming back early and breaking my word to reply to your things :D lol
but, to answer the question, no i was in no way suggesting that LEO's would resort to violence, i'm suggestiing, that if any one of us were to be in the same situation as those LEO's and to our sudden amazement, 50 'folks with guns on their sides' came approaching, it would be very easy to justify why we felt in danger of our life.
blv me, i've been through a very similar situation in the military, and it was not a pleasant feeling, and the crowd didnt even have guns displayed.

thats why i would recommend against that type of showing, at least if it were to happen, it should be without guns, maybe gun friendly news media, including everyone else having cameras. but guns being present could very well create a very bad situation, and even the LEO's in this video i think would be justified in drawing their weapons maybe even shooting (i said maybe, very maybe). we would likely use "many against one" as part of a defense if we were to need to draw or fire our own weapons in what we thought was a danger to our persons.
The flash mob idea is very good, flash mobs take a decent amount of coordination, but if a group was persistent, it would turn into a reality.

WOW, a 16hour per day for 5 days work week does not bode well on Tripper, i'm so glad to have the weekend off, but sure i'll be getting a call tomorrow.

be safe all

hefedehefe
07-15-2011, 9:18 PM
Yag

Tripper
07-15-2011, 9:29 PM
just WOW, i'm not even gonna get myself in trouble responding to the desert guy.

oh and

GO SOONERS

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 9:30 PM
Right getting CCW is going to solve everything...... So when it prints and its called in they will treat the CCWer with so much love and respect. .

Las Vegas PD can provide the training. http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/showthread.php?t=419251

ArmyMedicMoose
07-15-2011, 9:32 PM
the cluster was the fault of all parties involved...no one conducted business the way they should of. cant side with either.

http://trailerfest.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/mclovin.jpg

^^^ all i kept thinking of when he kept talking over the officer.

LOL so true

sandman21
07-15-2011, 9:35 PM
Las Vegas PD can provide the training. http://www.gunrightsmedia.com/showthread.php?t=419251

I have not kept up with that story but last I read it was the CCWer in the wrong. However, you can find many examples of what happens when a CC weapon is not concealed, its the same or worse than UOC.

glockman19
07-15-2011, 9:36 PM
Very sad whenever authority is abused and someone is violated. :(

I hope CGF goes after this one. ;)

Would love to hear that the department was educated. :D

pennys dad
07-15-2011, 9:38 PM
I am glad we have folks like the UOCer around that took personal strength.
I never encountered that kind of trouble when LOC in Az and no one ever misinterpreted what I was doing.

Tripper
07-15-2011, 9:45 PM
oh, and if the store indeed got robbed a couple days prior, if I were running the store, i would welcome UOC'ers to sit out in front of my place, they would not be buying their own lunch.
i think it should be fact checked as to if the store was really robbed previously, it would be just funny as heck to find out duran lied about that.

Anchors
07-15-2011, 9:48 PM
This video really upset me. Officer Duran is one of the most unprofessional people I have ever seen.
Even if you think the OCer was a jerk, that doesn't mean Duran should act the same way back, or discredit the Marine's service, or TURN OFF HIS CAMERA...
Sue them. I've never seen one where the officer admits to turning off the camera later on camera...this should be good.

This guy is wounded military?? He seemed all flustered and jacked up talking to the cops in front of gamestop. What was he like in an ambush or firefight??

Maybe he expected that kind of treatment and stress in a combat zone, but was caught off guard walking around GameStop back in the states when he got treated like a terrorist.

It's one thing to do the job you are trained to do as part of a team. Being detained by LE for No Crime and being dressed down by LE is something most normal people are not prepared for. After all we grow up trusting and believing in them to act properly.

This.
And for the folks who don't know, Liberty1 is a LEO.

rubber duckie
07-15-2011, 9:53 PM
for the ones that can go and say the UOCer was and a**, please understand they weren't acting this way in the beginning. it wasn't until their rights were violated was when they become irate. i'm sure anyone of you would have been as pissed if they were being treated like this by the police. i bet the ones that are on the LEO side are always going to back your brotherhood right or wrong.

Window_Seat
07-15-2011, 9:58 PM
and people wonder why cops are so hated by some.

major disgrace on upland pd. they need to go about fixing their reputation for being meth capital of the world before they give people crap like that and tell a Marine that he is a disgrace to the Corps for open carrying.

for the ones that can go and say the UOCer was and a**, please understand they weren't acting this way in the beginning. it wasn't until their rights were violated was when they become irate. i'm sure anyone of you would have been as pissed if they were being treated like this by the police. i bet the ones that are on the LEO side are always going to back your brotherhood right or wrong.

I can understand the desire to "pop off" when "popped off to", but it's still good to play by the general rule (with all due respect, sir :laugh:)...

6wXkI4t7nuc

Erik.

EvoXRiley
07-15-2011, 10:06 PM
I watched the first video and couldn't get through more than half of the second...

Officer Duran - Thank you for trying to have a conversation and keeping your cool. Hopefully you won't turn off video the next time, though.

To the guy shooting the video - STFU. You are an irritating SOB. This reminds me of the guy who was going through a Border Patrol checkpoint with his camera running and refusing all officer orders like open the window to talk and making an impossible situation and refusing a two way conversation.

Of course we have our rights, but so do officers. I don't think they should have 'cuffed them, but we have to realize that the PD wants to be safe as well.

took the words outta my mouth, YES IT IS PART OF OUR RIGHTS GUYS, BUT!!! when we make scenes like this, we look like the irrational ones to everyone else(PUBLIC VIEW). i cant believe how many of the UOC instantly freak out like little girls and cry wolf when it is a simple stop.

IF your going to UOC then deal with being pulled over/stopped its 2011 guys everyone is gonna be paranoid. CHILL THE HELL OUT on CONTESTING EVERYTHING A COP SAYS.

I UOC around my town, was stopped by RSO, showed them my fire arm was unloaded, yes i did answer a simple question of my name. was cleared i wasnt a felon and gone within 10 mins. i have since ran into the same LEO and they dont even bother to question me at all.

Liberty1
07-15-2011, 10:13 PM
...freak out like little girls and cry wolf when it is a simple stop.

IF your going to UOC then deal with being pulled over/stopped its 2011 guys everyone is gonna be paranoid. CHILL THE HELL OUT on CONTESTING EVERYTHING A COP SAYS.

A simple stop for what?

A 12031 e PC inspection pursuant to People v DeLong would last 30 seconds tops; no guns drawn, no handcuffs, no patdowns. No investigative wants checks, searches, or lectures are authorized. If 12031 e is unconstitutional as I contend the officers were acting without lawful authority and falsely imprisioned two law abiding Americans engaged in no crime.

sandman21
07-15-2011, 10:18 PM
took the words outta my mouth, REGARDLESS OF OUR RIGHTS GUYS, when we make scenes like this, we look like the irrational ones to everyone else. i cant believe how many of the UOC instantly freak out like little girls and cry wolf when it is a simple stop.

IF your going to UOC then deal with being pulled over/stopped its 2011 guys everyone is gonna be paranoid. CHILL THE HELL OUT on CONTESTING EVERYTHING A COP SAYS.
A simple stop?!?!?! You have to be out of your mind, a simple stop does not involve handcuffs. The fact that you are perfectly fine with civil rights violations speaks volumes.
Officer Duran should be personally held responsible for his actions and never work in LE again.

It's sad that in all likelihood the LEO will never be punished and the fact that some think that is ok is sickening.

epilepticninja
07-15-2011, 10:19 PM
Being a former LEO, I absolutely don't agree with the conduct of the officer(s.) However, Evo makes a great point. If you are going to UOC, expect the hassle. Arguing is just going to escalate the situation. Just stafoo, follow their directions, let them e-check you, and be on your way. They might talk some shizz, but so what. There is a cost to exercising your 2A rights in this state unfortunately. Shouldn't be that way, but it is.

rubber duckie
07-15-2011, 10:28 PM
i just want to say.. liberty1, we need more LEOs like you in the world.

Tripper
07-15-2011, 10:31 PM
just deal with it huh
yah, sheeple, you heard 'em, deal with it, get with the program.

dont contest anything a cop says, theyr'e always in the right.
they're trained to violate your rights in the proper manner, its for your own safety.

I cannot believe any LEO would back this one up just on face value, if you know something factual that we're all missing, please enlighten us, otherwise, go violate rights at home, the Legal UOC'ers are certainly not keeping you from going home. and its generally quite apparent when its a legal UOC'er, so its not like you dont know already.

like a few others suggested, you'll have a different reaction when your held personally liable for a civil rights violation for which you have no qualified immunity.
acting in a negligent manner even, considering you really do know it to be wrong

Hmm, I'm just thinking out loud here.
does anyone know, how many times, a UOC'er has been, 'checked' for officer safety, and ever been found to have been actually in any danger of any type. seems that term could be used against them, since they have so many times, used it as an excuse, and it has never came to be actually true to have been in harms way, so, sounds kind of like really bad judgement calls, seems that could be used in some way to make them stop using that is the catch all. it is simply over used and abused, and really only affects the innocent, please dont tell me your using just that to apprehend real criminals.

Tripper
07-15-2011, 10:35 PM
epileptic, i would agree with that cooperation, if it were that simple
like liberty1 suggested,
but, once they were told, on your knees, thats when it went too far, a simple e-check is one thing, but a felony style detention/arrest is another, and represented pure abuse.
no excuse whatsoever.

negolien
07-15-2011, 10:44 PM
Cops responding to armed guys /shrug no issues just shut the hole and do what you're told. I UOC and have not had any issues because I' am not a jerk to the guys trying to do their job and survive.

DannyInSoCal
07-15-2011, 11:04 PM
Obviously - The only way to educate Upland LEO's is to cause pain with lawsuits - Which should include the dismissal of the LEO who violated the veterans rights.

Period.

To the UOCier - Thank you for service. Sorry for the naive and ignorant LEO.

The Shadow
07-15-2011, 11:21 PM
oh, and if the store indeed got robbed a couple days prior, if I were running the store, i would welcome UOC'ers to sit out in front of my place, they would not be buying their own lunch.
i think it should be fact checked as to if the store was really robbed previously, it would be just funny as heck to find out duran lied about that.

I would have gone into the store with my recorder on and made an "innocent" inquiry about the robbery. And I would have made sure Duran saw me. :43:

oni.dori
07-15-2011, 11:22 PM
Time to lawyer up. Even though the OC'ers could have reacted better (I can't blame them for being upset though), the officers had absolutely no understanding of the actual laws, did not even follow even rudimentary engagement laws and codes of conduct, but also turned the situation in to a political platform to force their own opinions on the detainees. I hope someone lays the smack down on those officers and opens a can of education on the entire department.

The Shadow
07-15-2011, 11:26 PM
Being a former LEO, I absolutely don't agree with the conduct of the officer(s.) However, Evo makes a great point. If you are going to UOC, expect the hassle. Arguing is just going to escalate the situation. Just stafoo, follow their directions, let them e-check you, and be on your way. They might talk some shizz, but so what. There is a cost to exercising your 2A rights in this state unfortunately. Shouldn't be that way, but it is.

And there's a cost to being an as:censored:le and doing it boldly while knowingly being recorded, as I'm sure Duran is about to find out.

Shiboleth
07-16-2011, 12:58 AM
I cant believe how many of the UOC instantly freak out like little girls and cry wolf when it is a simple stop.

It is an unnecessary stop. More, it is an infringing stop.

IF your going to UOC then deal with being pulled over/stopped its 2011 guys everyone is gonna be paranoid.

And why is that exactly? It is 2011 and violent crime has been on a constant decline, what is the basis of this paranoia?

CHILL THE HELL OUT on CONTESTING EVERYTHING A COP SAYS.

Again, why? If a cop decides of his own volition to forcibly interject himself into my life, when I have done nothing wrong, and in the guise of a public servant, he deserves to be contested at every step, if on principle alone.

I UOC around my town, was stopped by RSO, showed them my fire arm was unloaded, yes i did answer a simple question of my name. was cleared i wasnt a felon and gone within 10 mins.

If you are willing to give up your rights, that's your decision, others are aware that the slippery slope of rights erosion does exist and is how we got to where we are now. If you accept that we got to this current state by gradual erosion, it's foolish to think that where we are now is some sort of ending, or final result. In fact, we represent a work in progress, we are simply at another point along the same line, and it's up to us to determine in which direction the line goes from here. It's almost always easier, less personally painful, in the short run to acquiesce to the small injustices for the sake of convenience, but then where would we all be? Maybe Rosa Parks should've just moved her happy *** to the back of the bus.
i have since ran into the same LEO and they dont even bother to question me at all.
I'm glad you've had that experience, others are not so fortunate. What about the person who gets stopped for their fourteenth (e) check because the leo thinks hey maybe this time he'll catch the guy with it loaded! I can imagine it becomes increasingly difficult to remain courteous.

rjh4758
07-16-2011, 2:27 AM
Don't get me wrong, the officers were way out if line and should be reprimanded. I also believe we all should have the right to carry, but concealed. I CCWed for the last 15 years until I moved here in CA. But the thought of UOC in my eyes is not even an option. It is going to create a negative view of guns in the eye of Joe Q Public.


I wonder just how many calls go into 911 when you UOC? Dozens maybe hundreds?

The world we live in, is for the most part scared to death if they see a gun in public. How can you go into a busy public place and not expect to get the policed called out? It is our right to do so but just because were can should we?

Just think is there a chance that some of these people that see us UOC and call the cops and then find out it's legal, say "oh then it OK"? NO, they call their state congressional rep and state senators and say "all my god I can not believe this is legal, my family is scared to go in public. We need this outlawed." You can not force people to accept it they are going to fight back. We all know that more guns in the hands of lawful citizens will reduce crime, but we are the minority.

Chatterbox
07-16-2011, 3:16 AM
Being a former LEO, I absolutely don't agree with the conduct of the officer(s.) However, Evo makes a great point. If you are going to UOC, expect the hassle. Arguing is just going to escalate the situation. Just stafoo, follow their directions, let them e-check you, and be on your way. They might talk some shizz, but so what. There is a cost to exercising your 2A rights in this state unfortunately. Shouldn't be that way, but it is.

And it will be until the word gets around that "talking shizz" and otherwise abusing your authority will get your department sued and you fired. At that point, measuring the cost of a power trip vs the rest of their career, I'm guessing most abusive LEOs would suddenly rediscover how to behave in a professional manner. That is not going to happen if we all just go "Yes, massa. No, massa."

Havoc70
07-16-2011, 5:21 AM
I wonder just how many calls go into 911 when you UOC? Dozens maybe hundreds?

Try zero for me and I UOC all over where I live.

FastFinger
07-16-2011, 5:46 AM
Don't get me wrong, the officers were way out if line and should be reprimanded. I also believe we all should have the right to carry, but concealed. I CCWed for the last 15 years until I moved here in CA.
And after you moved to CA what happened?

Did you apply for a CCW? Did you move into one of those zero crime CA cities we always read about in the Chamber of Commerce brochures? Or did they issue you the magic "no violence will befall me self defense force field jackets" at the border?

But the thought of UOC in my eyes is not even an option. It is going to create a negative view of guns in the eye of Joe Q Public.

Which would explain the tumultuous uproar we read and hear about every day in the 38 states who have shall issue CCW.

I wonder just how many calls go into 911 when you UOC? Dozens maybe hundreds?

The world we live in, is for the most part scared to death if they see a gun in public. How can you go into a busy public place and not expect to get the policed called out? It is our right to do so but just because were can should we?

Just think is there a chance that some of these people that see us UOC and call the cops and then find out it's legal, say "oh then it OK"? NO, they call their state congressional rep and state senators and say "all my god I can not believe this is legal, my family is scared to go in public. We need this outlawed." You can not force people to accept it they are going to fight back. We all know that more guns in the hands of lawful citizens will reduce crime, but we are the minority.

All begging the question...

Due to violations of our civil rights to keep and bear arms some members of the general public seldom see law abiding neighbors carrying guns, so when they do see guns in public they over react. That over reaction justifies the continued violation of our civil rights.

CitaDeL
07-16-2011, 6:12 AM
I wonder just how many calls go into 911 when you UOC? Dozens maybe hundreds?

Why would there be dozens or hundreds of calls reporting UOC in a public place? Would you punch 911 on someone openly carrying? Would you report them so that police would give them grief, just because you dont approve?

In spite of your assumption that OC results in 'hundreds' of calls, the reality is that police are seldom called. And about half the time, the police are called by reporting parties that are not actually threatened by the practice, but only wish to make it difficult because of their political views on carry.

I am sad to say that such people frequent this forum.

r3dn3ck
07-16-2011, 6:14 AM
more jerks being jerks to each other.

uyoga
07-16-2011, 6:19 AM
"Officer Safety" is being misused almost as much as: "For the children".

Eventualli it'll become just as meaningless.

smn
07-16-2011, 6:32 AM
My second amendment rights were established long before "officer safety" became a creation of the SCOTUS.

cadurand
07-16-2011, 6:44 AM
It just looks so bad when a cop turns the recorder off. What are they doing (or about to do) that they don't want recorded?

One thing I really hate with a lot of these videos is when there is more than one cop. I'm willing to say most cops aren't jerks. They just do their jobs, go home for the night, come back to next day.

So when you have one cop being a complete moron it kills me when his buddies just stand there watching him be a moron. You rarely see another cop on the scene pull his buddy aside and say "Dude, relax." I can think of only two videos where I've ever seen another cop on the scene intervene on behalf of the person being mistreated.

They usually just stand there watching while their buddy make everyone in uniform look bad.

JaMail
07-16-2011, 6:47 AM
citycouncil@ci.upland.ca.us


when exactly did this take place? I havent participated in an OC event, I think I would for something like this if they did one in upland.

rjh4758
07-16-2011, 6:52 AM
Why would there be dozens or hundreds of calls reporting UOC in a public place? Would you punch 911 on someone openly carrying? Would you report them so that police would give them grief, just because you dont approve?

In spite of your assumption that OC results in 'hundreds' of calls, the reality is that police are seldom called. And about half the time, the police are called by reporting parties that are not actually threatened by the practice, but only wish to make it difficult because of their political views on carry.

I am sad to say that such people frequent this forum.

Maybe I am mistaken about the number of calls to 911. But it I am sure it happens enough that it is an issue. I have seen quite a few videos on Youtube that show it happens. That is unless the cops only get called out when there is a gun and a camera.

And no I would not call to report it and no I do not disapprove. I actually appreciate seeing firearms in public. I moved here from OK and many pickup trucks had a gun hanging in the gun rack ( mini14's, AR's, SKS and AK's and a few bolt action rifles But then I lived in a smaller town and it was the norm. Although I feel like I have been stripped of my right to defend myself, I do not see that the potential hassle by law enforcement would warrant me doing it. Now don't take my word for it, it is stated right on the FAQ of CaliforniaOpenCarry.org (http://californiaopencarry.org/faq.html) that you need to prepare for it.

Lets not forget AB144 is still out there to take that right away.

vantec08
07-16-2011, 6:59 AM
These guys are tools!!

Indeed. LEOs have been perverted into bureaucrats who exist to serve political interests, not necessarily constitutional interests. Expanding the authority of the State at time when what is sorely needed is exactly the opposite. Message to bureaucrats - - GET YOUR FOOTPRINT OFF OUR NECKS.

rjh4758
07-16-2011, 7:20 AM
And after you moved to CA what happened?

Did you apply for a CCW? Did you move into one of those zero crime CA cities we always read about in the Chamber of Commerce brochures? Or did they issue you the magic "no violence will befall me self defense force field jackets" at the border?



In the process of applying for a CCW. Trying to work out that mystical good case.



Which would explain the tumultuous uproar we read and hear about every day in the 38 states who have shall issue CCW.




Exactly why they should have a national shall issue CCW, since after all it is a right guaranteed on the federal level.

Uxi
07-16-2011, 7:28 AM
Wow. Have there been any repercussions against the Upland Brownshirts?

I open carry
07-16-2011, 7:40 AM
Try zero for me and I UOC all over where I live.

and in the 3+ years that I have been UOC, all over the Bay Area, and the 9 bay area counties there has only been one call. and only 2 e-checks. both in Oakley, where I carry daily.

How do I know this? because I ask. I get the PRR info and find out. UOC is not the bad press that the state and the officers want you to believe it is.

I have never had any negative comments from any of the public while I am carrying.

Other then at events with more then 50 Ocers and the Bradys showed up.

Apocalypsenerd
07-16-2011, 7:59 AM
The cops behaved illegally and unethically. They stated at the beginning they knew the guys were UOC'ers. With that in mind:

The length of the detention was illegal.
Running the serial numbers was illegal.
Handcuffing was illegal.
Turning off the recorder was illegal.
The pat-down was illegal.

The UOC'ers getting agitated in the face of abuse by the cops does not mean they are jerks. The UOC'ers were not merely exercising their rights, they were asserting them. Asserting your rights in the face of abusive authority does not mean you are a jerk. It means you have courage.

For those of you who think the UOC'ers were jerks or somehow out of line, I suggest you reflect on the difference between a right and a privilege. The abuse of the cops seems to me to be a way for them to browbeat a right into a privilege. If we had to go through what these guys did in order to vote, would we be jerks if we were angry about it?

Our rights should not come at the expense of hassle and abuse. They are not rights if they do.

Kid Stanislaus
07-16-2011, 8:01 AM
If the said "clown" was legitimately trying to accomplish something positive and 'educate' either the public or the police officers (and dept), then maybe a phone call or a visit to the pd before hand might have left a better taste in the mouth of all parties.

Exercising one's constitutional rights most emphatically does NOT require a phone call to the local police to notify them of the time and location of said exercise, nor does it require one to be "educating" anyone!!

Kid Stanislaus
07-16-2011, 8:17 AM
Let me clarify... I was actually screaming obscenities at the cop in the video. 12031(e) is a huge reason why I will never come back to CA.

Don't get the idea in your head that there are not abusive cops and silly laws in the state of Texas. If you don't believe it, check out Injustice Everywhere dot com. ;)

Kid Stanislaus
07-16-2011, 8:19 AM
Can someone educate me? If those 2 guys had been carrying with the slide locked back with the chamber & mag well plainly visible, how would the PD justify removing the weapon from the holster?

I believe there's a state law that allows them to check UOC guns to make sure they are not loaded.

CitaDeL
07-16-2011, 8:27 AM
Maybe I am mistaken about the number of calls to 911. But it I am sure it happens enough that it is an issue. I have seen quite a few videos on Youtube that show it happens. That is unless the cops only get called out when there is a gun and a camera.

Youtube is no accurate census of good or bad open carry experiences. The bad only stand out because they are most likely to be uploaded and forwarded as there is little interest in videos that depict circumstances wherein there is no conflict. Positive encounters with police while people open carry is only interesting to gunowners- and therefore are only circulated to show not all police are hostile.

So, how many calls to report a lawful activity are necessary to make open carry an issue to concern ourselves with? One per incident? Two? Ten?

Anthony Portantino would probably have us believe that thousands of calls are made to police every day to report unloaded open carry, tying up valuable police resources and putting us all in jeopardy- but the reality is on average, that much less than one call per open carry demonstration is made. There have been no incidents of crime involving open carriers anywhere in the state... no police reports illustrating a need to thwart criminals open carrying- yet even those among us, inflate the figures to imply that this is more trouble than it actually is.

I dont know what is more discouraging- the irrational reaction of the police or the half made up statistics passed on as fact by those who profess to support the 2A.

I open carry
07-16-2011, 8:35 AM
I dont know what is more discouraging- the irrational reaction of the police or the half made up statistics passed on as fact by those who profess to support the 2A.


the half made up statistics passed on as fact by those who profess to support the 2A

We can and do expect it from the LEO's and the state, we do not expect it from fellow 2A supporters.

Old_Bald_Guy
07-16-2011, 8:37 AM
...She stated that the last time law enforcement acted this way at the sight of a person or persons exercising certain Constitutional rights was when inter-racial marriage became legalized. Just an observation that I feel is interesting, but I wonder how long it took back then for the Government to begin to accept the idea of inter-racial couples getting married.
I can tell you from personal experience at the hands of cops in a couple of NorCal jurisdictions that it was quite a while. Interracial marriage has been legal in CA since 1948. My wife and I were stopped and subjected to similar treatment numerous times in the late 70s through mid 80s, absent any legitimate or even slight degree of probable cause.

I'm reading this thread with interest; I've seen behavior by LEOs through the decades covering the entire spectrum, from the "thugs with badges" category through a high level of professionalism, competence, and fairness, with positive correlation between progression in time and the overall level of the latter category (professionalism). A continuum obviously still exists, however, as it does with any characteristic of human beings.

I personally think UOC is illogical, but I don't support 4th Amendment violations for any reason. From my perspective, this whole discussion begs the question: How many of you who are angry at the behavior of these particular officers extend your outrage into other forms of potential 4th Amendment abuse? What specific characteristics must a citizen exhibit in order to get you equally fired-up?

taperxz
07-16-2011, 8:55 AM
FUNNY!!

I have been in some real good debates with a few people in this forum about my personal feelings on 1A unloaded open carrying. I am opposed to it!!

With that being said, the UOCers in this vid, should take these officers to court!! Getting a little hassled by LEO on this matter is one thing, what these guys went through is simply un American on the officers part! The LEOs should have and i think would have been flunked out of the academy IF this were a test in the academy!!

These LEOs should at least be put on admin. leave pending and investigation of their behavior. JMO

The Shadow
07-16-2011, 9:24 AM
Lets not forget AB144 is still out there to take that right away.

Just my $0.02 on this statement, you can't take a right away unless it's removed from the Constitution. Making a law that prohibits the right from being exercised is an infringement and unconstitutional.

For those of you that aren't keen on UOC, what alternative form of carry would you suggest, if a person is prevented from getting a CCW ? And if we're talking about getting the word out, and garnering support from the general public, how would you do that ? In my opinion, standing on a street corner handing out pamphlets and telling people that UOC is legal without actually doing it yourself is pretty worthless. Personally, if I wasn't into firearms, a pamphlet would be so much garbage, and I would deposit it where garbage goes.

So I don't get it. Those guys are doing a LEGAL thing, and Upland stepped over the line and out right showed their @$$. For what ? To intimidate ? To show who's in control ? To discourage open carry on their turf ? Duran did acknowledge that he knew they were open carriers, so the BS about the place being robbed three times is a bogus smoke screen.

For those of you that aren't aware of it, Ohio got shall issue because the law abiding citizens open carried as well. The only difference is their firearms were LOADED. The government didn't like it, but they did the right thing and made concealed carry shall issue so that it satisfied both sides. The interesting thing is, the second amendment hadn't been incorporated yet.

Now you have California wanting to continue to restrict rights at a time when we can say that the second amendment IS our fundamental right to bear arms for self defense. But a:censored:es like Duran want to show us how tough they are by getting in a law abiding citizens face, while a:censored:es like Portantino create laws that infringe on a fundamental right. California is going backwards on the right to carry issue, while states like Wisconsin continue to move forward. Condemning a fellow gun owner because they are doing something you're not comfortable doing is not the answer.

The Shadow
07-16-2011, 9:28 AM
The LEOs should have and i think would have been flunked out of the academy IF this were a test in the academy!! JMO

Nah, they went through the San Bernardino Sheriff's academy. That kind of behavior, or something close to it, would have probably been praised and encouraged.

Maestro Pistolero
07-16-2011, 9:56 AM
Just once I'd like to see a calm, eloquent, person well-versed in the law, and with some charm and communication skills school these officers on video. It's tricky when your adrenalin's pumping. I am at an age and a place in my life where I think I could do it without blowing my cool, but alas, I'm not in CA.

Sometimes I wonder what the POST course is called where they teach officers how to give condescending, ill-informed lectures to citizens.

TNP'R
07-16-2011, 10:04 AM
I thought open carry was banned now.

GettoPhilosopher
07-16-2011, 10:09 AM
If the said "clown" was legitimately trying to accomplish something positive and 'educate' either the public or the police officers (and dept), then maybe a phone call or a visit to the pd before hand might have left a better taste in the mouth of all parties. Instead of a public display such as this if some one dropped a dime to the pd the operator might have come back with "yes maam, we know about this and they are legal and not a problem".


Here's a little story for you. Back in high school, a bunch of my friends and I used to airsoft on a large plot of public land up in the hills (I believe it was La Habra Heights). It was a weird plot...basically an abandoned gravel quarry owned by the people with the house on the hill (so behind the house is a 50ft drop or something down to the quarry). Well, we were always careful, and we had let the neighbors know what we were doing before, but people still kept calling the cops on us (despite the fact we weren't visible from the road). After our first helicopters-and-SWAT raid (turned out rather well, considering), we told them that we'd already informed the neighbors, and asked if maybe next time we could just call so they could avoid the hassle of a giant SWAT raid over kids with airsoft guns.

Their answer? "We have to respond to a 'man with a gun' call, even if you had informed us ahead of time. It won't change anything". After the second raid, we stopped playing at that field...we were just too worried something would happen.

Now, disclaimer: I wasn't there that day, so this is--unfortunately--second hand. But I believe the principle still stands. Depending on department policy, informing them ahead of time probably won't do jack $h*t. If their department policy warrants this large of a response to two UOCers, it's not like dispatch is going to look at their post it note and go "OH! It's just those UOC guys, lol. Leave 'em alone/only send one guy".

DisgruntledReaper
07-16-2011, 10:11 AM
Also if you did not know..... Kommiefornia has NEVER had a 2nd A in it's STATE Constitution since it became a state.... geee wonder why-??

Sometimes I think they have this fact highlighted so they can somehow circumvent the federal COTUS......

Also... this BS SOP the LEO's pull on ya.. 'on the ground, on your knees, handcuff crap when ever this happens is crap.... I get very pissed when they try to pull the 'sit on the ground child, I am in charge' power stance...... I am a Citizen and an adult...I dont respond well to this type of treatment...

Well I think i need to go buy a pair of those camera sunglasses or other micro cam for just in case...

Falstaff
07-16-2011, 10:28 AM
I thought it was SOP for open carry activity is to refuse to provide ID?
Why did you guys give them ID?

-----------------------------------

I open carry
07-16-2011, 10:33 AM
The ID was not given, it was taken after the cuffs were hooked.

Stoner
07-16-2011, 10:46 AM
Worst case of open carry i have seen to date. the uoc could not shut up and have a conversation. if he had allowed the cop to respond to his hundreds of questions it could have been much more productive. A little too much caffeine there sport. Did nothing to push his cause forward.

Rossi357
07-16-2011, 10:50 AM
Also if you did not know..... Kommiefornia has NEVER had a 2nd A in it's STATE Constitution since it became a state.... geee wonder why-??

Sometimes I think they have this fact highlighted so they can somehow circumvent the federal COTUS......

Also... this BS SOP the LEO's pull on ya.. 'on the ground, on your knees, handcuff crap when ever this happens is crap.... I get very pissed when they try to pull the 'sit on the ground child, I am in charge' power stance...... I am a Citizen and an adult...I dont respond well to this type of treatment...

Well I think i need to go buy a pair of those camera sunglasses or other micro cam for just in case...

I use the sunglasses and the pen. It's a little tricky figureing out how to work them, because the instructions are written by someone who uses English as a second language.

http://spygear.factoryoutletstore.com/spy-pen.html?cid=11063&chid=1&gclid=CNb0-czriqUCFSg1gwoda2_aMw

Stoner
07-16-2011, 10:52 AM
Obviously - The only way to educate Upland LEO's is to cause pain with lawsuits - Which should include the dismissal of the LEO who violated the veterans rights.

Period.

To the UOCier - Thank you for service. Sorry for the naive and ignorant LEO.

your dreaming if you think a cop is going to loose his job over this. remember the cop in the palo alto(?) that made the comment on face book. cal guns was going to bring him to his knees. what ever happened with that...............???

Liberty1
07-16-2011, 11:24 AM
your dreaming if you think a cop is going to loose his job over this. remember the cop in the palo alto(?) that made the comment on face book. cal guns was going to bring him to his knees. what ever happened with that...............???

Unprofessional words which were not directed at specific individuals are quite different then what was recorded here. I do believe action was taken internally regarding the individual officer its just not a matter of public record.

It would take resources and a planned effort on behalf of the detained, unlawfully seized & searched, and battered individuals to get some level of 'satisfaction'. Whether or not they are capable of that level of coordination or would accept outside coordination is unknown. I can envision a course of events that could end in ruined careers, but this event might not be the ONE that sends a strong statewide message re: RKBA. But I do believe such a message is just a matter of time and will likely be delivered by CGF once some cases have clear resolutions in the courts.

jaq
07-16-2011, 11:29 AM
your dreaming if you think a cop is going to loose his job over this. remember the cop in the palo alto(?) that made the comment on face book. cal guns was going to bring him to his knees. what ever happened with that...............???

Ha, you're a real treat. Did you notice I wrote "you're"? That is what is called a contraction. It is used in English to combine two words; e.g., "you" and "are".

And I love people who don't know the difference between "loose" and "lose".

Please do continue - I want to hear more of your "thoughts".

:D:D:D

FF/EMT Nick
07-16-2011, 11:30 AM
took the words outta my mouth, YES IT IS PART OF OUR RIGHTS GUYS, BUT!!! when we make scenes like this, we look like the irrational ones to everyone else(PUBLIC VIEW). i cant believe how many of the UOC instantly freak out like little girls and cry wolf when it is a simple stop.

IF your going to UOC then deal with being pulled over/stopped its 2011 guys everyone is gonna be paranoid. CHILL THE HELL OUT on CONTESTING EVERYTHING A COP SAYS.

I UOC around my town, was stopped by RSO, showed them my fire arm was unloaded, yes i did answer a simple question of my name. was cleared i wasnt a felon and gone within 10 mins. i have since ran into the same LEO and they dont even bother to question me at all.

Simple stop? That LEO turned a "simple E-check" into a FELONY STOP! "Turn around and put your hands on your head, drop down to your knees" Seriously? They guy was a D-Bag, and shouldn't be wearing a badge, PERIOD!

jaq
07-16-2011, 11:40 AM
Simple stop? That LEO turned a "simple E-check" into a FELONY STOP! "Turn around and put your hands on your head, drop down to your knees" Seriously? The guy was a D-Bag, and shouldn't be wearing a badge, PERIOD!

QFT

jaq
07-16-2011, 11:43 AM
...SNIP...CHILL THE HELL OUT on CONTESTING EVERYTHING A COP SAYS...SNIP

That's right! On your knees and lick those boots, serf!

Cops responding to armed guys /shrug no issues just shut the hole and do what you're told. I UOC and have not had any issues because I' am not a jerk to the guys trying to do their job and survive.

Crawl, crawl. Slurp, slurp.

Sgt Raven
07-16-2011, 11:44 AM
Cops responding to armed guys /shrug no issues just shut the hole and do what you're told. I UOC and have not had any issues YET because I' am not a jerk to the guys trying to do their job and survive.

Fixed. :rolleyes:

Librarian
07-16-2011, 12:12 PM
OK, thread drift into badness.

Closed.