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SwissFluCase
07-15-2011, 3:00 PM
I have previously brought up the concept of desktop rapid prototyping machines and their use to basically allow anyone to download physical objects from the internet. Basically, download a Glock, if you will. The technology is not ready to actually create a working gun yet, but it is a lot further along than I had expected.

So the question is, in ten or twenty years when this technology is more mature, how does "the government" expect to enforce gun control? I'm curious to hear what people think about the ramifications of this, and how the government might respond.

Here is what I am talking about:

<object width="560" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZboxMsSz5Aw?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZboxMsSz5Aw?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="349" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

(direct link) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZboxMsSz5Aw

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Bhobbs
07-15-2011, 3:03 PM
The issue with that is the way the part is built up. The machines I am familiar with layer the material in .010" layers. The material is pretty brittle. I would not trust a firearm built up like that. I would rather machine it out of billet on a CNC. Any decent machine shop can build a pistol with plans that are available on the internet.

socal-shooter
07-15-2011, 3:08 PM
The issue with that is the way the part is built up. The machines I am familiar with layer the material in .010" layers. The material is pretty brittle. I would not trust a firearm built up like that. I would rather machine it out of billet on a CNC. Any decent machine shop can build a pistol with plans that are available on the internet.


the op says in 10 or 20 years when the technology is mastered bro

bwiese
07-15-2011, 3:12 PM
So the question is, in ten or twenty years when this technology is more mature, how does "the government" expect to enforce gun control? I'm curious to hear what people think about the ramifications of this, and how the government might respond.

Color copier/printers ("mopiers") already have firmware preventing copying of paper money (or perhaps preventing *accurate, usable* copies of money).

This was a 'voluntary' feature added by manufacturers like HP. They sell a lot of printers to the G, along with ink/toner cartridges so they'd like to keep that up.

SwissFluCase
07-15-2011, 3:22 PM
Color copier/printers ("mopiers") already have firmware preventing copying of paper money (or perhaps preventing *accurate, usable* copies of money).

This was a 'voluntary' feature added by manufacturers like HP. They sell a lot of printers to the G, along with ink/toner cartridges so they'd like to keep that up.

That was one thing I thought of. Who knows whether this kind of restriction will be feasible with rapid prototyping. This kind of technology is not likely to become a consumer item anytime too soon, whereas a color laser printer is a mass market item. I don't think that the offset quality inkjets have the firmware that you refer to, and they aren't consumer printers. I may be mistaken, though.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

curtisfong
07-15-2011, 3:51 PM
Governments hate disruptive technology. They do whatever they can *by any means necessary* to find ways of crippling them. Often, corporations go right along with them.

armygunsmith
07-15-2011, 4:01 PM
I have a similar discussion with my friends all the time. For example, is a plastic M16 receiver, built in a rapid prtottyper, really a machinegun if it cannot withstand the force of firing? I don't think so, but I'm pretty sure people would disagree with me. How far are the willing to go in regulating things like that. What about that same M16 receiver, but made out of stacked cardboard impregnated with a polymer. At what point, if any, do you have something illegal? Possessing the cardboard and patterns? What about a rapid prototyper and CAD files? It's kind of awesome to think that some day we will be able to print gun parts, but I'm concerned about what our government will try to do to regulate it.

Tom Slick
07-15-2011, 4:10 PM
Wow, that video is really making the rounds! This is the 4th forum I visit that it's popped up on.

There is 3d printing in metal. You can also 3d print the "positive" to make a "negative" mold or sandcasting. then you can cast anything you want.

curtisfong
07-15-2011, 4:19 PM
See also 80% lowers. Or folding AK flats. This really isn't anything new.. trust me, we have abdicated all responsibility to our government. They can tell you what you can make, and what you can't make.

See also encryption/decryption (HDMI, hdcp) legislation.

Or US patent law - software patents limit the kind of software you are allowed to write.

The list goes on and on. You do not live in a free country.

ETA: see also the DMCA

socal2310
07-15-2011, 4:50 PM
As long as firearms are relatively easily obtained here, I don't see it as a game changer. Really, apart from the specific process by which firearms are manufactured, it's not really different from someone having a well equipped machine shop.

Ryan

Bhobbs
07-15-2011, 5:03 PM
the op says in 10 or 20 years when the technology is mastered bro

Yes I understand they but the point of these machines is not to make a production quality part. They are designed to make a rough prototype so you can test fit and function test the design. Besides, most parts take many hours to make.

Not only that but the machines and materials are hugely expensive. A machine capable of making a production grade, safe firearm would be even more expensive.

Jeepers
07-15-2011, 5:09 PM
any skilled machinist at this time can make about anything you want with traditional mills and lathes , the 3d printers are just the next wave for ppl that dont have those skills (ie losing more skilled workers) for prototyping.... if you want to play with 3d printing check out "cupcake cnc" as a home Hobie unit a geek buddy of mine has one and its cool to play with and watch it make things .. bottom line is i dont see this effecting "gun control", but do see it as one more step into losing more skilled workers in the workforce

d4v0s
07-15-2011, 5:29 PM
This technology already exists. I more than likely could whip a glock out on my CNC machine in no time. (it cost 125,000 brand new tho) so the tech exists..

No it will never sit on your desk. and there is no way to regulate it. Except its pretty easy for the govt to tell if your manufactured weapon is legit or not. Make it mandatory to have a serial number tied to the individual. and boom, anyone caught without the proper serial number issued to them by a manufacturer is in possesion of a stolen firearm..

like i said tho, any person with access to a machine shop already has this tech.

One thing that many people dont think about though is the use of one of these 3d printers for plastic crap we use every day. Want a new cellphone case just print one out, dog chewed up the remote, bam new case in your email, so on and so forth.

SwissFluCase
07-15-2011, 6:16 PM
I thought of two things. First, attempts to control technology by using encryption or other means doesn't always work. DVD and Blu-Ray are perfect examples, as both have been hacked. Second, nanotechnology is going to be a factor in the long term, and things could be interesting if that made it into the equation.

Basically, at what point does it even become pratical for the government to regulate a product that can be made anywhere on demand?

Regards,


SwissFluCase

wash
07-15-2011, 7:07 PM
Well, making barrels probably isn't feasible even with laser sintering, the rifling just wouldn't be right.

These technologies will make things easier, the next generation of Afghani cave gunsmiths will probably have home made 3D printers for stuff they can't make with a rock.

Wernher von Browning
07-15-2011, 7:24 PM
Here's one of these machines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmkQCUJNooA

This one works by laying down some kind of melted plastic. Looks like white polystyrene; I've seen that stuff in rolls at auto upholstery shops, for example (to make "piping" at the edges of seats.)
Instead of having the machine "make" the finshed product, think instead of it making either a model, or a mold, to have final parts made using a lost-wax or investment casting method. You could for example make a plastic model, take silicone molds off that, pour wax into the silicone mold, give wax patterns to foundry for investment. That way you can have cast stainless etc.

It still won't be as strong as forgings, but a heck of a lot stronger than plastic.

Potential marketplace problem: inkjet printers are so common because the makers make their money on the cartridges, the expendables not the hardware, so they can afford to basically give the printers away. With these 3D printers, if they use cheap, readily available raw materials, there's no money in it for the makers -- they have to get their money up front on the hardware.

Apocalypsenerd
07-15-2011, 7:28 PM
I would hazard a guess working models that can produce firearms will be available in 5 years, if they are not already designed and in production. The government will ask for encryption which will not work. Hacktivists will break the codes.

The control will need to be on primers and powder. I'm not sure if controlling powder is possible. Primers maybe, however.

Again, I bet we see something technologically speaking that puts control of primers and powder out of the reach of government. We live in exponential times. Technology moves at that pace. Governments move like glaciers.

wash
07-15-2011, 7:31 PM
DIY 3D printer kits of the plastic extrusion type are already pretty cheap, I know I've seen one for $899.00 and I think there are a few cheaper options.

You don't have to make many parts to break even on that, especially in a country where all gun parts are black market items.

M. D. Van Norman
07-15-2011, 8:00 PM
If our goal is to largely abolish gun control within the next hundred years, it won’t matter that many people will own desktop fabrication units by then. :devil2:

Barabas
07-15-2011, 8:04 PM
We're almost there now. The Singularity is coming.

LWLKAokClnk

DanDaDude102
07-15-2011, 9:51 PM
Software can be changed. Companies such as apple are constantly updating their software to prevent people from modifying the OS, yet they cannot stop them. With hardware that does not receive constant updates such as printers, it will be just a small amount of time before users can find a way to remove certain software restrictions.

Burbur
07-15-2011, 10:44 PM
Good luck keeping your <<anything electronic>> from connecting to it's home server. When the protocols are built right into the eprom, manufacturers can make it impossible to remove the software. Also, if it's important enough, it will find a way to connect to an ISP. My PS3 connected and updated itself, before I even knew it had wireless capabilities...

Back on topic... those plastic 3d printers look expensive, really expensive. I would be willing to bet I could set up a used CNC mill cheaper and billet stocks would be cheaper than their proprietary plastic powder. As for legality: if I can machine an 80% lower no problem, then I have no qualms about "forging" my own 80% lower (out of plactic...)

EBF3 looks really cool, thanks for posting. I just lost another hour to Youtube

curtisfong
07-16-2011, 12:34 AM
it will be just a small amount of time before users can find a way to remove certain software restrictions.

The government can make such tampering illegal. See also the DMCA. Sadly there is no amendment protecting us. Please support the EFF and your freedom to tinker.

PANTyRAiD
07-16-2011, 1:23 AM
We're almost there now. The Singularity is coming.

LWLKAokClnk

That video is insane! I totally want to be a metallurgist now. What an exciting field!

rjh4758
07-16-2011, 1:37 AM
If guns are illegal and you have the technology to print out a gun great. Now let's see you print bullets that will work too!

When they can not take our guns they will just take the ammo. Now all you have is a club. Why do you think bayonet lugs are so evil.

chead
07-16-2011, 1:55 AM
It's not very difficult to make ammo, and something capable of "printing" a gun will surely be capable of doing the same for a bullet and casing.

I've worked a lot with RP and I guess I can answer any questions you might have, but let me head off some of them by saying that most of the processes used by current RP machines, even when using metals, will not stand up to the kind of forces produced in a gun's chamber. It's just not practical and probably won't be for some time, unless you consider CNC mills to be "RP" which many people do (and I consider reasonable). High-end mills and routers will let you upload your models and press "go".

rjh4758
07-16-2011, 2:35 AM
It's not very difficult to make ammo, and something capable of "printing" a gun will surely be capable of doing the same for a bullet and casing.

.

Bullets and casings yes. Powder I am sure you could make some crude black powder with the right know how. Primers, well good luck with that one. If you could I'd bet a cross bow would be more reliable.

Wrangler John
07-16-2011, 6:30 AM
Primers can be replaced with electrical discharge ignition - the mechanical/chemical reaction of current primers is a bit anachronistic.

As for rapid prototyping, it is a really fascinating process. Still, firearms were borne at a blacksmith's forge with nothing more than an anvil, hammer, crude lathes, maybe a drill press and a set of files. I understand that in parts of the world many an AK-47 is churned out in back alley workshops. Even rifling a barrel was done with a simple machine where the rifling cutter was pulled through by hand, establishing cut rifled barrels. Simple wooden lath wrapped around a wooden drum set the twist rate and indexing.

With lost wax casting, the rapid prototype becomes more useful, and with Metal Injection Molding a possibility, a wide range of parts could be possible. Still, the individual craftsman can work wonders with simple relatively inexpensive machine tools and a set of files.

Or firearms can simply be taken away from the government, or imported from anti-government sources.

FastFinger
07-16-2011, 7:00 AM
Let's not go off track bickering about the technology of the process. For sake of argument let's assume that the technology will mature to the point where it is possible to desktop print a functioning firearm. BTW, ignoring my own request by going off track for a few words, I do believe we'll see that reality, and probably sooner than most of us imagine.

I do think the gov will try regulate that type of process. And they would go beyond simply passing the law and would actively try control the process by embedding code in the machines.

No doubt there will be people who would see that as a challenge and hack the restrictive code - and they'll be successful. But would that practice be widespread? I doubt it. Today it's possible to convert a number of common firearms from semi to full auto, and although there are no doubt thousands of such illegal conversions out there I don't think we could say that it's commonplace. The benefits of doing so aren't compelling enough to outweigh the risks of being caught and the potential resulting pain & punishment.

But that's predicting a future where the only thing that changes is the ability for a desktop machine to crank out a bespoke firearm. But the future isn't like that, many things will change. We could find ourselves in a country where machinery has advanced greatly, but at the same time society, specifically threats to the individual from government or others, has declined to the same degree. In which case cranking out an AR15 on the kitchen table may be worth the risk.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/4795/arprinter.jpg

command_liner
07-16-2011, 7:50 AM
Ah! An area where I have some expertise.

Offset quality inkjet printers from HP? That is me! There are just a few of
us that know how the image model works and how the steganography works,
if there is such a thing.

Lots of consumer-grade printers have steganographic stamps. The EFF
explored lots of these about 5 years ago. There is steganography in the
executables produced by Microsoft compilers. Several virus writers have
been caught by this. There is steganography in the various products by
Adobe.

Digital printers are used to make gun parts already. One of our members here
makes gun parts. I stop by fairly often and look at the prototypes. ALL the
prototypes come from Autocad and go directly to quick prototype machines.
The results are assembled and tested. Quick print guns -- in plastic.

The next step is also at hand. Metal prototyping machines are here. Go to
SIGGRAPH and see what the movie industry is doing. You can get bronze
prototypes printed for things up to 6" in any dimension. The Millet process
of diffusion bonded powdered metal was close to being automated when I
checked a decade ago.

Over at rec.crafts.metalworking we worked on the problem for at least a decade.
What is constructive possession? Also, what constitutes grounds for a search
warrant? The lynchpin of the Waco tragedy was that Koresh had a lathe that
could be used to make illegal modifications to firearms: I have the same
model of lathe. Will the ATF burn down my house and kill my children?

The key is to get the Feds out of the driver's seat. The whole "shall not be
infringed" wording needs to be applied to this whole area of thinking. We
need to get the law out in front of the technology.

bussda
07-16-2011, 1:48 PM
...

So the question is, in ten or twenty years when this technology is more mature, how does "the government" expect to enforce gun control? I'm curious to hear what people think about the ramifications of this, and how the government might respond.

...


The same way they do now. The desire of people to do the right thing, and to avoid punishment by breaking the law.

Note that the level of technology to make a non ferrous weapon or several with interchangeable parts can be significant. But one or two custom weapons, simple. Just a file and a piece of steel. Forge, welder, milling machine, and lathe with cutting tools just make the job go faster.

Kid Stanislaus
07-16-2011, 2:45 PM
the op says in 10 or 20 years when the technology is mastered bro

Yeah, my first computer was a 386! In 20 years this'll revolutionize manufacturering. ;)

Kid Stanislaus
07-16-2011, 2:51 PM
Not only that but the machines and materials are hugely expensive. A machine capable of making a production grade, safe firearm would be even more expensive.

My first micro-wave oven cost $350 and now I can buy one just as good or better for less than $100. Its just a matter of time before the costs come down.

Kid Stanislaus
07-16-2011, 3:06 PM
........I bet we see something technologically speaking that puts control of primers and powder out of the reach of government.

Yeah, something like that new fangdangled 3D printing!!;)

Skidmark
07-16-2011, 3:27 PM
Jay Leno uses a $3000 3D scanner to make new engine parts for old cars. Plastic parts, that he then makes a mold for casting in metal, and does final machining work on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggvzcGdZsTc

There's no reason to think we won't be able to make our own firearms and weapons by similar means. You just might need to talk to a friend of a friend who knows someone who knows someone else with a special rig that they run at night, without a network connection, that's all.

Anchors
07-16-2011, 4:07 PM
any skilled machinist at this time can make about anything you want with traditional mills and lathes , the 3d printers are just the next wave for ppl that dont have those skills (ie losing more skilled workers) for prototyping.... if you want to play with 3d printing check out "cupcake cnc" as a home Hobie unit a geek buddy of mine has one and its cool to play with and watch it make things .. bottom line is i dont see this effecting "gun control", but do see it as one more step into losing more skilled workers in the workforce

Do you think those same machinists know how to operate and repair a 3D printer?
It isn't a loss of skilled workers if the technology is simply changing. It is a transfer of skills.
You learn the new skills or get over it.

Before my grandpa died, he could take apart any car and put it back together if it was made before a certain year. Or any modern car if it was made here.
But if I needed work on my Toyota I would have been royally screwed. He didn't have the knowledge or the tools to work on it. I bought it after he died, otherwise he would have given me a lot of crap about it haha.

This technology already exists. I more than likely could whip a glock out on my CNC machine in no time. (it cost 125,000 brand new tho) so the tech exists..


Dude I want to make my own Glock. Or Kel-Tec. Or something.
I wish I knew how to machine stuff.
Where does someone go to learn how to "make" firearms? (I don't mean like folding an AK flat, I mean like machining a lower from a block of metal).


Jay Leno uses a $3000 3D scanner to make new engine parts for old cars. Plastic parts, that he then makes a mold for casting in metal, and does final machining work on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggvzcGdZsTc

There's no reason to think we won't be able to make our own firearms and weapons by similar means. You just might need to talk to a friend of a friend who knows someone who knows someone else with a special rig that they run at night, without a network connection, that's all.

I believe he makes small parts for his motorcycle collection, like a mounting bracket or something SMALL.
He can't whip a new carburetor out on that thing.

Skidmark
07-16-2011, 4:26 PM
Dude I want to make my own Glock. Or Kel-Tec. Or something.
I wish I knew how to machine stuff.
Where does someone go to learn how to "make" firearms? (I don't mean like folding an AK flat, I mean like machining a lower from a block of metal).

Try your local junior college, they may have machine shop classes. I learned to operate machine tools in high school. I have enjoyed the "Bedside Reader" series by Guy Lautard, and also the books on practical machines hop techniques by Frank Marlowe from Metal Arts Press. I apply them on my lathe and mill, making parts and bits to suit whatever I happen to need for home or vehicles, or to help out friends with broken parts.

Anchors
07-16-2011, 6:05 PM
Try your local junior college, they may have machine shop classes. I learned to operate machine tools in high school. I have enjoyed the "Bedside Reader" series by Guy Lautard, and also the books on practical machines hop techniques by Frank Marlowe from Metal Arts Press. I apply them on my lathe and mill, making parts and bits to suit whatever I happen to need for home or vehicles, or to help out friends with broken parts.

Have you ever machined any firearms or at least firearms parts?

I think the CC I attend does have a machine shop as I was eyeballing it one day from the parking lot on my way to class.
That would be pretty cool.
I only have experience with wood-working in high school. I got to use a lot of fun toys, but nothing that would help me work on guns really (except the drill press I suppose, but that isn't rocket science. We weren't allowed to use the lathe because it was dangerous, but the band-saw with a five minute safety lesson was no problem :rofl2:).

Off-topic: the fact that they let me slide my hands near a band-saw when I was 14 is proof that firearms safety/training isn't too dangerous for students...

Wernher von Browning
07-16-2011, 6:37 PM
Have you ever machined any firearms or at least firearms parts?

I think the CC I attend does have a machine shop as I was eyeballing it one day from the parking lot on my way to class.
That would be pretty cool.
I only have experience with wood-working in high school. I got to use a lot of fun toys, but nothing that would help me work on guns really (except the drill press I suppose, but that isn't rocket science. We weren't allowed to use the lathe because it was dangerous, but the band-saw with a five minute safety lesson was no problem :rofl2:).

Off-topic: the fact that they let me slide my hands near a band-saw when I was 14 is proof that firearms safety/training isn't too dangerous for students...

I agree with Skidmark, try the local community college. You don't need to go on a machinist "career track." You just need access to machines, and time to soak up skills.

I was fortunate in having a high school that mandated two years of shop courses -- we could choose (pick 4 -- not including "advanced" versions of the following) from machine shop, foundry, wood shop, electrical shop, house framing, welding, printing, auto, aviation. So at about the same time I was making telescope mirrors in the Adler Planetarium optical shop, evenings and weekends, I could make the mechanical parts for telescopes at school. My machine shop teacher encouraged this; he could see that somebody was actually putting the classroom skills to personal use.

Then in college, the physics dept. had a student machine shop. Many colleges still have shop facilities for engineering students; I think MIT even has a required course.

Ryan asked if Skidmark has ever machined any firearms or parts. Funny you should mention that, I just came in from the garage, where I was putting the finishing touches on my very first zero-percent AR-15 lower. (OK, maybe 10 percent -- the mag well was broached by the supplier which saves a ton of work). Today's job was engraving all the info on the side -- name, location, safety labels, model, caliber, serial. On Friday I went around to four engraving shops to see if they could do it, and at what price. The only firm quote I could get was from a jeweler, doing diamond engraving, $75 to $100. So today I did it myself. For two years, I've had an Engravograph machine sitting on the bench, never used. Got it cheap with five sets of letters. So today I went into it, cleaned it up, adjusted the slides, and had at it. Turned out beautifully, if I do say so. Then I filed off the remains of the forging flash around the edge. Last job, for tomorrow, is to make the wells for the trigger, hammer, and rear takedown. Then it is done. After test-firing I'll have it anodized.

Ryan, if you can do woodworking, you can do metalworking. The differences are in speeds and feeds and tooling but the ideas are the same. A milling machine is just a kind of router. One turns at 11,000 rpm, the other at 2500 or so.

Foundry -- if you can pour Jell-O into a mold, you have the basic idea of foundry. The trick is to make the mold. If you can make sand castles using plastic buckets and a little shovel, you can make molds.

I have an advanced degree in mechanical engineering but I feel that most of what I learned, I learned in high school, and especially in shop. God bless Sputnik, paranoia, and the space race for making my high school possible!

Anchors
07-16-2011, 8:38 PM
That is awesome man!
You should start a thread in the rifle section with some pictures of the progress if you have them.
It isn't like I'm a pro at woodworking lol, I made a picture frame, shelf, model car, and a box. I think the box was actually the most time consuming to get everything lined up perfectly, but I enjoyed it. I also have done it since my freshman year of high school (about 7-8 years). But I think I could pick up pretty fast on the metalworking, I'm pretty good at hands-on learning.

I'll see what my school's program is all about. I'm sure if I even mention the word "gun" they'll freak out :rolleyes:
Meanwhile, my buddy over at Arizona State studying aerospace engineering and his classmates are designing weapons in CAD and machining whatever they want for free. Haha. I don't know why I didn't ask him in the first place, Idk if he has experience finishing with bench tools, but I know he can probably design a firearm and make the meat of it with a CNC. He's a smart kid, going to MIT in the next year or two.

OP - I am terribly sorry for the off-topic discussion here haha I know we've hijacked the thread...

bigcalidave
07-17-2011, 10:40 AM
I'm surprised how many think that this won't be possible at home soon. There is a huge hobby cnc / 3d printer market right now, and as people graduate from the plastic extrusion machines they will find a way to build cheap, effective sintering or some new process machine.

It will be difficult for the .gov to interfere because it will all be open source work and home made hardware. There just isn't a place where they could command a corporation to include a block on gun parts. This is a hacker hobby, and will stay that way. I agree with a previous statement in this thread, we are probably less than 5 years from having an affordable (sub $1000) desktop machine that could pump out ar lowers, handgun slides and frames, trigger parts etc. You will probably have to buy a barrel and ammo for a while, where the majority of the pressure is.

CCWFacts
07-17-2011, 10:59 AM
This meme has been coming up in various discussion forums for at least the past 10 or 15 years.

It will happen. It's already possible. I assume that the most-capable 3D printers today can print fully-functional ready-to-use AR-15 receivers right now. The AR-15 receiver is unusual in that it's not under a lot of stress, so it's particularly suitable for this. Soon enough they will be able to use these machines to create the more difficult parts, like the bolt, barrel, etc. And even if they can't print the barrel or bolt itself, they could print jigs and fixtures to make it easy to set up manufacturing of those things (also jigs to form springs).

An AR-15 receiver printed with today's best technology might not be as rugged and appealing as a high-quality aluminum receiver made the conventional way, but it would work. People have already made usable AR-15 receivers with plastic and glue (http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8035&PN=1&TPN=3#133756). 3d printers are already better than that. Much better.

Color copier/printers ("mopiers") already have firmware preventing copying of paper money (or perhaps preventing *accurate, usable* copies of money).

This was a 'voluntary' feature added by manufacturers like HP. They sell a lot of printers to the G, along with ink/toner cartridges so they'd like to keep that up.

It won't be like that. It's pretty easy for a printer to detect US currency, because it's got a distinctive color, shape and size. It's far more difficult to detect generic gun parts. Also there will be open-source controller software.

But it's more of a conceptual change than a real world change. Criminals already have plenty of sources of arms (they get them from smugglers, the BATF, etc). The only difference with a 3d printer is that it puts an end to rational arguments about gun control. People could argue that we can stop criminals from getting guns with better regulation, control of FFLs, better border controls, putting ankle monitors on BATF agents, etc. With matter printers, those arguments fall apart.

Here's someone test-firing a home-made plastic AR-15:

3chSzLxPuzU

It's made from a plastic kitchen cutting board.

NorCal Mtn Flyer
07-17-2011, 11:10 AM
Well, if two young nerdy kids can get this out of their computers back in 1985

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.screenwritingforhollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/weird_science_underwear.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.screenwritingforhollywood.com/movie-reviews/most-famous-pg-underwear-scenes-in-cinema-readers-choice&usg=___UxAnX0h3jPqukiXjG2ugql6UCw=&h=378&w=210&sz=31&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=DKJYYJdx-qk4GM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=73&ei=QTMjTpbIA4bkiAKc4K3MAw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dweird%2Bscience%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26 biw%3D1600%26bih%3D748%26tbm%3Disch%26prmd%3Divns&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=914&vpy=322&dur=272&hovh=301&hovw=167&tx=107&ty=189&page=1&ndsp=34&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:0&biw=1600&bih=748

Then certainly getting and AR or an AK out of one should be easy! :D


OK, major fail on my part... this should be a pic of Kelly LeBrock from "Weird Science"....

NorCalAthlete
07-17-2011, 6:25 PM
This meme has been coming up in various discussion forums for at least the past 10 or 15 years.

It will happen. It's already possible. I assume that the most-capable 3D printers today can print fully-functional ready-to-use AR-15 receivers right now. The AR-15 receiver is unusual in that it's not under a lot of stress, so it's particularly suitable for this. Soon enough they will be able to use these machines to create the more difficult parts, like the bolt, barrel, etc. And even if they can't print the barrel or bolt itself, they could print jigs and fixtures to make it easy to set up manufacturing of those things (also jigs to form springs).

An AR-15 receiver printed with today's best technology might not be as rugged and appealing as a high-quality aluminum receiver made the conventional way, but it would work. People have already made usable AR-15 receivers with plastic and glue (http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8035&PN=1&TPN=3#133756). 3d printers are already better than that. Much better.



It won't be like that. It's pretty easy for a printer to detect US currency, because it's got a distinctive color, shape and size. It's far more difficult to detect generic gun parts. Also there will be open-source controller software.

But it's more of a conceptual change than a real world change. Criminals already have plenty of sources of arms (they get them from smugglers, the BATF, etc). The only difference with a 3d printer is that it puts an end to rational arguments about gun control. People could argue that we can stop criminals from getting guns with better regulation, control of FFLs, better border controls, putting ankle monitors on BATF agents, etc. With matter printers, those arguments fall apart.

Here's someone test-firing a home-made plastic AR-15:

3chSzLxPuzU

It's made from a plastic kitchen cutting board.

:eek: just read that guy's thread on how he built the rifle...that's awesome! Given that (most) of us probably aren't going to be subjecting our rifles to extreme temperature variances...it sounds like a perfectly viable lower "build". Assuming you can afford the machines to do the work anyway. Of course, if this method of cranking out lowers becomes commonplace, I can see the gubment trying to implement controlled-by-serial-number laws for uppers, barrels, etc...

CCWFacts
07-17-2011, 7:01 PM
I can see the gubment trying to implement controlled-by-serial-number laws for uppers, barrels, etc...

Yeah, they are already controlled in other countries. I forget where exactly but I think the barrel is the controlled item in some places, because, in fact, it is the most difficult single part to manufacture. And all the items you listed (barrels, uppers, etc) are ITAR (export) controlled already.

But that doesn't change anything, it only delays it. Even if a 3d printer can't print a barrel, it can print a rifling cutting machine, and jigs and fixtures to make it easy to manufacture small runs of such parts.

The original video in this thread showed someone scanning and printing a functional, sturdy monkeywrench. If that machine can print a monkeywrench it's certainly capable of printing a lower receiver and many non-stressed parts (ie, not the barrel or bolt) right now.

Also for items like shotguns, where the pressures are lower and the barrel doesn't need to be rifled and accuracy isn't as important, those might be printable right now, barrel and all.

The other item which is challenging is making ammo. It's more difficult to produce high-quality ammo components than any gun part.

Anyway, the technology is here now and I'm sure that someone has already printed an AR-15 receiver somewhere. Maybe no one has posted about it yet but there's some gun nut with a 3d printer who has already tried this.

And 3d printers are really just an evolution of CNC mills which have been around for a while. 3d printers are just easier to use and less messy.

The futurists take it all a step further. What happens when we can use some kind of nanotech to extract U235 from seawater, and we can then print it into a functional nuclear weapon? That's a long ways away, but it will happen also.

CrysisMonkey
07-17-2011, 7:31 PM
Making this stuff at home. Still years off. Any one remember when burning a CD cost more than buying one? prices will come down. quality goes up.

I have a friend that works for a company that piggy back off government research jobs. They have access to a titanium printer. The parts are as strong as machined parts. Other than honing some surfaces for bearings or slides, all the parts are ready and dimensionally correct.

Wernher von Browning
07-17-2011, 8:08 PM
OK, major fail on my part... this should be a pic of Kelly LeBrock from "Weird Science"....

Oh, you mean... like this?

http://www.cele*****y.com/category/kelly_lebrock/


(Dang. I wish I hadn't gone looking for that).

(Furthermore, this is a reminder that I shouldn't try to find my ex-girlfriends from the 1980s).

curtisfong
07-17-2011, 9:15 PM
The futurists take it all a step further.

Futurists consistently (and drastically) underestimate how much power the average person is willing to give the government to quash the effects of disruptive technology.

Meplat
07-17-2011, 10:12 PM
The control will need to be on primers and powder. I'm not sure if controlling powder is possible. Primers maybe, however.


Primers are not that tough to make. I have "reloaded" Boxer primers just to be sure I could. Berdan would be even easier. I have fired my .38 with home made powder primers and bullets.

HAY!! I have an idea; Lets just make a law against murder and then we don't have to worry about all this nit picking ****!:eek:

Meplat
07-17-2011, 10:43 PM
We weren't allowed to use the lathe because it was dangerous,

I think you misunderstood. It was "dangerous" to the lathe, not to you. The teacher couldn't care less how many fingers you went home with, but he sure didn't want any kids messing up his favorite tool.:p

Maleficarum
07-18-2011, 7:59 AM
i'll just leave http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20R9nItDmPY this here.

jackblack
07-18-2011, 1:01 PM
i'll just leave http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20R9nItDmPY this here.

Niiiiice. Well done, Mal ;-)

Quser.619
07-18-2011, 2:20 PM
Don't worry, I'm sure DeLeon already has a "cop killer printer" bill ready for to submit. :43:

Anchors
07-18-2011, 6:50 PM
3chSzLxPuzU

It's made from a plastic kitchen cutting board.

:eek:
I really want to make a 1911 out of an unused bed pan. Or a Glock out of some old shovels....haha.

:eek: just read that guy's thread on how he built the rifle...that's awesome! Given that (most) of us probably aren't going to be subjecting our rifles to extreme temperature variances...it sounds like a perfectly viable lower "build". Assuming you can afford the machines to do the work anyway. Of course, if this method of cranking out lowers becomes commonplace, I can see the gubment trying to implement controlled-by-serial-number laws for uppers, barrels, etc...

Yeah. We gotta keep the "make it yourself" thing low-key.
They seem to be cool with it because most people aside from law-abiding "gun nuts" won't spend thousands of dollars on shop equipment to build their own arms.


HAY!! I have an idea; Lets just make a law against murder and then we don't have to worry about all this nit picking ****!:eek:

WHAT A CONCEPT :rolleyes:

I think you misunderstood. It was "dangerous" to the lathe, not to you. The teacher couldn't care less how many fingers you went home with, but he sure didn't want any kids messing up his favorite tool.:p

:rofl2: probably.
He only had like eight of them at his disposal.
Seriously, that is like one of us landing a job teaching kids how to shoot, but you get a teacher's salary, benefits, and the state pays for all the guns :]

Grumpyoldretiredcop
07-18-2011, 8:40 PM
Since at least some of the technology is open-source, it might be hard for the government to tie it up completely.

My son-in-law is just getting into it - he has a printer coming, he will be offering 3D printer kits made at least partially on a 3D printer. Sort of like perpetual motion, or lifting yourself by your bootstraps!

I've already talked to the daughter about printing an AR lower... great minds think alike!

tuolumnejim
07-18-2011, 9:21 PM
Yes I understand they but the point of these machines is not to make a production quality part. They are designed to make a rough prototype so you can test fit and function test the design. Besides, most parts take many hours to make.

Not only that but the machines and materials are hugely expensive. A machine capable of making a production grade, safe firearm would be even more expensive.

And Beta video machines in the 70's cost as much as a small cheap car in those times, one thing you can count on times are a changing.

Maleficarum
07-18-2011, 9:27 PM
Niiiiice. Well done, Mal ;-)



Thank you.
Being a student in Manufacturing Technology and Engineering has its perks.

CNC and rapid prototyping are two.
:P

jackblack
07-19-2011, 12:21 PM
Thank you.
Being a student in Manufacturing Technology and Engineering has its perks. ...:P

You're welcome.

I commend you on your field of study.

...CNC and rapid prototyping are two.
:P

Cool. So I have this block of aluminum I've been wanting to do something with....:cool2:

CCWFacts
09-20-2011, 8:53 AM
And someone has now posted the data file for a 3d printable AR-15 receiver. Here's the discussion on Boingboing (http://boingboing.net/2011/09/20/3d-printed-ar-15-parts-challenge-firearm-regulation.html). Some of the commenters are wondering if a plastic receiver is functional, and some others point out that, while it may not be beautiful, it may not be as rugged as aluminum, it is certainly usable and functional.

http://craphound.com/images/testComponent_display_medium.jpg

SwissFluCase
09-20-2011, 9:15 AM
If you look at the design of the lower you will see a lot of material removed to make it lighter. Some of that material could be left in place, which should make the part much more durable.

Best comment in that discussion:

1st amendment + 2nd amendment = The right to print arms.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

CCWFacts
09-20-2011, 9:22 AM
If you look at the design of the lower you will see a lot of material removed to make it lighter. Some of that material could be left in place, which should make the part much more durable.

Yes, sure, they could double the thickness of the walls in most places. No reason not to.

Also, the part that will have the most stress will be the barrel screw threads. They could leave those off and have people use a simple metal insert that is fixed in place in the plastic receiver. If they wanted to do even better they could do a hybrid design where the plastic receiver body is made to accept steel insets at various stress points and wear points. That would make it quite durable, perhaps nearly to the level of a standard aluminum receiver.

Best comment in that discussion:

Yeah I thought so too!

bigcalidave
09-20-2011, 9:51 AM
Did you mean the stock threads? It wouldn't even have to be a metal insert, machined zytel is plenty strong. I agree, the lower should be redesigned much thicker if its being printed, should be easy.

Stonewalker
09-20-2011, 10:24 AM
Great discussion going on at boingboing, mostly it's about the technicalities of using the reciever and the freedom of information. Very little antigun crap so far... which is strange for boingboing readership.

Do you contribute there CCWFacts?

a1c
09-20-2011, 10:27 AM
The open source movement is already all over 3D printers. You can be sure that while big manufacturers will follow whatever government regulation they have to, there will be workarounds.

Some have already been using them for an obvious application in the firearm field: manufacturing custom stocks and grips.

Mesa Tactical
09-20-2011, 10:35 AM
We use rapid prototyping all the time and have even worked on some projects that include a firearm receiver (like that AR-15 lower, which has been generally available as an IGES file for some years).

We once used rapid prototyping to produce a lower that was to be used for test fitting. We did not include any of the holes or cavities in the model (aside from ta magazine well) and there was no attempt to produce a functioning firearm, and this is the reason why:

Today you would use a service bureau to actually produce the SLA part. If you gave them a digital 3D file of a receiver and they produced the SLA and billed you for it, they would be violating state and Federal law.

So before anyone starts making SLAs of functional firearms, consider carefully how you are going to do it legally. If you have your own 3D printing machine, no problem. Otherwise, you will probably be an accessory to state and Federal felonies.

CCWFacts
09-20-2011, 10:36 AM
Great discussion going on at boingboing, mostly it's about the technicalities of using the reciever and the freedom of information. Very little antigun crap so far... which is strange for boingboing readership.

Actually Xeni is pro-gun-rights. I've discussed it with her. They do tend to be pretty liberal over there, but I think the editors of Boingboing may have a lot more gun rights sympathy than you would imagine.

The one thing they did that really got me steamed was they ran a piece promoting a book by the terrorist Bill Ayers. I won't link to it, I don't link to things which are repulsive. They ran that story without mentioning that he is an unrepentant terrorist. This is something everyone should know before they consider buying anything from that guy. I was astounded that Boingboing would run PR for a real live American terrorist.

Do you contribute there CCWFacts?

No, see above. They do have some interesting things which I read but they really should apologize for ever having done a promotion for Bill Ayers. Bill Ayers should be in prison right now, not receiving PR from Boingboing and a generous pension from the taxpayers of Illinois. Taxpayers who he would have slaughtered if he could have.

SwissFluCase
09-20-2011, 10:41 AM
The hacker and open source community tend to lean towards libertarian viewpoints when it comes to the Bill of Rights.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

SwissFluCase
09-20-2011, 10:43 AM
We use rapid prototyping all the time and have even worked on some projects that include a firearm receiver (like that AR-15 lower, which has been generally available as an IGES file for some years).

We once used rapid prototyping to produce a lower that was to be used for test fitting. We did not include any of the holes or cavities in the model (aside from ta magazine well) and there was no attempt to produce a functioning firearm, and this is the reason why:

Today you would use a service bureau to actually produce the SLA part. If you gave them a digital 3D file of a receiver and they produced the SLA and billed you for it, they would be violating state and Federal law.

So before anyone starts making SLAs of functional firearms, consider carefully how you are going to do it legally. If you have your own 3D printing machine, no problem. Otherwise, you will probably be an accessory to state and Federal felonies.

Wouldn't it be OK if you went onsite, loaded the file and print media, then hit the print button yourself?

Regards,


SwissFluCase

formerTexan
09-20-2011, 10:47 AM
We use rapid prototyping all the time and have even worked on some projects that include a firearm receiver (like that AR-15 lower, which has been generally available as an IGES file for some years).

We once used rapid prototyping to produce a lower that was to be used for test fitting. We did not include any of the holes or cavities in the model (aside from ta magazine well) and there was no attempt to produce a functioning firearm, and this is the reason why:

Today you would use a service bureau to actually produce the SLA part. If you gave them a digital 3D file of a receiver and they produced the SLA and billed you for it, they would be violating state and Federal law.

So before anyone starts making SLAs of functional firearms, consider carefully how you are going to do it legally. If you have your own 3D printing machine, no problem. Otherwise, you will probably be an accessory to state and Federal felonies.

Isn't that a great burden on these service bureaus? They now basically have to be ATF tech branch examiners to determine what they are producing for a client is legally a firearm. I suppose those "in the know" could just send them a 3D file of a "80%" receiver :facepalm:

This sounds like situation where one could challenge the laws with regards to manufacturing firearms. Does one have to be licensed (beyond whats considered acceptable for ALL types of businesses) to print books?

formerTexan
09-20-2011, 10:49 AM
Wouldn't it be OK if you went onsite, loaded the file and print media, then hit the print button yourself?

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Given current ATF guidance, that is fine. That should be the same as going to a workshop and making a receiver yourself. Even if that workshop has a 07 FFL.

Mesa Tactical
09-20-2011, 10:58 AM
This sounds like situation where one could challenge the laws with regards to manufacturing firearms. Does one have to be licensed (beyond whats considered acceptable for ALL types of businesses) to print books?

You don't even need a license to produce a firearm, you just need a license to produce one for sale.

But your earlier point is a good one: service bureaus could unwittingly commit felonies on behalf of their customers. And I have little doubt these unwitting violations will be zealously prosecuted by local and Federal authorities.

orangeusa
09-20-2011, 11:03 AM
I thought of two things. First, attempts to control technology by using encryption or other means doesn't always work. DVD and Blu-Ray are perfect examples, as both have been hacked. Second, nanotechnology is going to be a factor in the long term, and things could be interesting if that made it into the equation.

Basically, at what point does it even become pratical for the government to regulate a product that can be made anywhere on demand?

Regards,


SwissFluCase

The Chinese are awesome at counterfeiting or defeating security on most devices.. :) And the States hackers (hardware/firmware/software) are pretty inventive also... Point is, if these fast prototype devices can produce hardened, solid product and endup with a 'V-Chip equivalent' it WILL be hacked. And you gave us 10-15 years to DO it!

.

SwissFluCase
09-20-2011, 11:08 AM
Firearms are not the only items that will be created. Other weapons such as plastic knuckles, batons, knives, ITAR regulated items, and others will be created. There will also be non-weapon items that could be illegal as well, such as medical devices, monster dildoes, unapproved aircraft parts, patented devices, and possibly classified items as well.

Will there be a safe harbor for service bureaus? The legal framework already exists for ISPs in these kinds of cases.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Stonewalker
09-20-2011, 11:19 AM
Actually Xeni is pro-gun-rights. I've discussed it with her. They do tend to be pretty liberal over there, but I think the editors of Boingboing may have a lot more gun rights sympathy than you would imagine.

The one thing they did that really got me steamed was they ran a piece promoting a book by the terrorist Bill Ayers. I won't link to it, I don't link to things which are repulsive. They ran that story without mentioning that he is an unrepentant terrorist. This is something everyone should know before they consider buying anything from that guy. I was astounded that Boingboing would run PR for a real live American terrorist.



No, see above. They do have some interesting things which I read but they really should apologize for ever having done a promotion for Bill Ayers. Bill Ayers should be in prison right now, not receiving PR from Boingboing and a generous pension from the taxpayers of Illinois. Taxpayers who he would have slaughtered if he could have.

I am totally uneducated about Bill Ayers. Excuse me, I'll be reading for on lunch break...

CCWFacts
09-20-2011, 11:21 AM
Firearms are not the only items that will be created. Other weapons such as plastic knuckles, batons, knives, ITAR regulated items, and others will be created. There will also be non-weapon items that could be illegal as well, such as medical devices, monster dildoes, unapproved aircraft parts, patented devices, and possibly classified items as well.

Sure, of course, and these problems (although depends on your POV if these are bugs or features) already exist today. What will happen is that service bureaus will have some "know your customer" policies and won't just generate totally unknown parts for unknown customers with no explanation. Customers will be required to explain the function of any part that isn't obvious or familiar to the service bureau.

However these machines will end up at the hobbyist level very soon (they may be there already). Right now inkjet printers block users from printing currency, but detecting contraband 3d items is a much harder problem. I can imagine some policy where the 3d printing machines need to be registered, and then upload logs of what the user prints with them. Maybe I shouldn't give out ideas like that...

Stonewalker
09-20-2011, 11:28 AM
They are already at the hobbyest, you can buy an entire setup - software and hardware and printing materials, for $500. This was just a Kickstarter-type project... but we are there.

http://boingboing.net/2011/06/11/self-reproducing-3d.html

nicki
09-20-2011, 12:31 PM
Could someone build all key components, frame, grip, reciever and a smooth bore barrel with such equipment?

If the answer is yes, then the streets could be flooded with "Selective Fire" Mac 10s, Mac 11's, and Tec 9s.

The Black Market for guns will follow the patterns of the Black Market for Alcohol and Drugs.

The Black Market goes for profit. A machinepistol has more profit potential than a semi auto pistol.

Which is a "badder ***" weapon from a "Thug view". A glock fortay or a full auto mac machine pistol?

Which one could be made with the rapid protype machine?

Nicki

M. D. Van Norman
09-20-2011, 12:34 PM
I can imagine some policy where the 3d printing machines need to be registered, and then upload logs of what the user prints with them.…

Over my dead Fourth Amendment!

CCWFacts
09-20-2011, 12:40 PM
Over my dead Fourth Amendment!

Exactly, your fourth amendment is dead. Banks have exactly the same issue. They provide logs of all your transactions upon request from the authorities, or even without request (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspicious_activity_report), no annoying warrants needed. This would be the same model.

formerTexan
09-20-2011, 12:48 PM
Could someone build all key components, frame, grip, reciever and a smooth bore barrel with such equipment?

If the answer is yes, then the streets could be flooded with "Selective Fire" Mac 10s, Mac 11's, and Tec 9s.

The Black Market for guns will follow the patterns of the Black Market for Alcohol and Drugs.

The Black Market goes for profit. A machinepistol has more profit potential than a semi auto pistol.

Which is a "badder ***" weapon from a "Thug view". A glock fortay or a full auto mac machine pistol?

Which one could be made with the rapid protype machine?

Nicki

You don't need a rapid prototype machine to make a MG now. A bad guy can make a lightning link (google it) or a drop-in-auto-sear for an AR if they wanted to. They can even just drill the "third hole" and put in a select fire FCG. You can home fab a glock select fire "sear", google for "Glock Exotic Weapons System".

Laws don't prevent bad guys from possessing or making anything. I wish we only punished behavior that causes harm to others, instead we punish even simple possession of certain items.

billybob_jcv
09-20-2011, 1:26 PM
BoingBoing is also the home of Cory Doctorow - who wrote "Little Brother" - which is a great story about the dangers of an out of control gov't and the ingenuity of citizens dedicated to personal freedom. I have no idea what his views on gun-rights are - but he is certainly fervently anti-copyright. I guess that means he would be in full support of having the digital files for printing a firearm freely available to everyone... :chris:




Actually Xeni is pro-gun-rights. I've discussed it with her. They do tend to be pretty liberal over there, but I think the editors of Boingboing may have a lot more gun rights sympathy than you would imagine.

The one thing they did that really got me steamed was they ran a piece promoting a book by the terrorist Bill Ayers. I won't link to it, I don't link to things which are repulsive. They ran that story without mentioning that he is an unrepentant terrorist. This is something everyone should know before they consider buying anything from that guy. I was astounded that Boingboing would run PR for a real live American terrorist.



No, see above. They do have some interesting things which I read but they really should apologize for ever having done a promotion for Bill Ayers. Bill Ayers should be in prison right now, not receiving PR from Boingboing and a generous pension from the taxpayers of Illinois. Taxpayers who he would have slaughtered if he could have.

sreiter
09-20-2011, 1:36 PM
Good luck keeping your <<anything electronic>> from connecting to it's home server. When the protocols are built right into the eprom, manufacturers can make it impossible to remove the software. Also, if it's important enough, it will find a way to connect to an ISP. My PS3 connected and updated itself, before I even knew it had wireless capabilities...



Huh wut?

If your wireless router is that un-secure, you got way more problems then your electronics connecting to it home.

MAC privileges are all you need to set up stop devices from unauthorized access to your router...let alone WEP passwords


Do you know what EPROM stands for?

ERASABLE programmable ROM

a eprom burner will let you change whatever code you want that was burned previously...PROM other the other hand....

wash
09-20-2011, 1:42 PM
I'm not worried because I know a firmware engineer who is in to guns.

If I need some hacking, things will get hacked.

sreiter
09-20-2011, 1:53 PM
Actually Xeni is pro-gun-rights. I've discussed it with her. They do tend to be pretty liberal over there, but I think the editors of Boingboing may have a lot more gun rights sympathy than you would imagine.

The one thing they did that really got me steamed was they ran a piece promoting a book by the terrorist Bill Ayers. I won't link to it, I don't link to things which are repulsive. They ran that story without mentioning that he is an unrepentant terrorist. This is something everyone should know before they consider buying anything from that guy. I was astounded that Boingboing would run PR for a real live American terrorist.



Not that i support him, but isnt one of the defining characteristic's of a terrorist they target civilians? now, i get the weatherman targeted banks, but they were a org targeting the government.

they were revolutionary's, but not terrorist imo

Stonewalker
09-20-2011, 1:58 PM
BoingBoing is also the home of Cory Doctorow - who wrote "Little Brother" - which is a great story about the dangers of an out of control gov't and the ingenuity of citizens dedicated to personal freedom. I have no idea what his views on gun-rights are - but he is certainly fervently anti-copyright. I guess that means he would be in full support of having the digital files for printing a firearm freely available to everyone... :chris:

I think Cory is probably pragmatically anti-gun, but I know he is pro-Bill of Rights. I think given the right situation, he would come out swinging pro-gun. He used to work for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, one of the only orgs who is a powerhouse for the 4th amendment.

I think principally speaking, Cory would have to be pro RKBA.

CCWFacts
09-20-2011, 1:59 PM
BoingBoing is also the home of Cory Doctorow - who wrote "Little Brother" - which is a great story about the dangers of an out of control gov't and the ingenuity of citizens dedicated to personal freedom.

Yes.

I have no idea what his views on gun-rights are

My guess is that, logically, he realizes he should be pro-gun-rights, but personally he probably doesn't like them.

- but he is certainly fervently anti-copyright.

He absolutely is not anti-copyright. He's pro-copyright. What he is anti- is he is anti-perpetual-copyright (something which never existed before and is not permitted by the Constitution) and he is anti-copyright-thugs who try to intimidate everyone into paying them money by threat of lawsuits.

Cali-Shooter
09-20-2011, 4:15 PM
At the very LEAST, this technology can "print" gun components to be assembled together together into a working firearm.

Think polymer/composite parts, and add the metal barrel, slide, spring, etc.

billybob_jcv
09-20-2011, 4:27 PM
Yes.



My guess is that, logically, he realizes he should be pro-gun-rights, but personally he probably doesn't like them.



He absolutely is not anti-copyright. He's pro-copyright. What he is anti- is he is anti-perpetual-copyright (something which never existed before and is not permitted by the Constitution) and he is anti-copyright-thugs who try to intimidate everyone into paying them money by threat of lawsuits.


Yes - you're right - I was (incorrectly) over-simplifying. I believe he is against the *current* copyright system - but he certainly believes artists should be compensated for what they create. He discusses some of this here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/nov/23/copyright-digital-rights-cory-doctorow

Cory Doctorow is the guy I wish I could be - he can say what he really believes, whenever he wants, with no fear that he will harm his career. Being a corporate drone sucks. But I digress...

Back on topic - the "How it's Made" video was interesting. Is the final product pure bronze? I was confused by what "infused with bronze" really means - what happens to the stainless steel powder when the shape is infused with bronze?

formerTexan
09-20-2011, 8:10 PM
well, now they've really done it:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:11636
http://thingiverse-production.s3.amazonaws.com/renders/96/5e/ec/80/85/IMAG0247_preview_medium.jpg

Anonymous Coward
09-20-2011, 8:14 PM
well, now they've really done it:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:11636
http://thingiverse-production.s3.amazonaws.com/renders/96/5e/ec/80/85/IMAG0247_preview_medium.jpg

So if I web-enable my 3D printer in CA and have somebody from out of state start printing a 10 rd+ magazine, I did not really manufacture anything, right? :43:

SwissFluCase
09-20-2011, 8:16 PM
well, now they've really done it:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:11636
http://thingiverse-production.s3.amazonaws.com/renders/96/5e/ec/80/85/IMAG0247_preview_medium.jpg

I told all of you so. :D

ETA: Post 1000! And it's about downloading guns!!! :43:

Regards,


SwissFluCase

billybob_jcv
09-20-2011, 9:09 PM
Maybe you could claim that a botnet run by an Evil Blackgun Militia in Romania or Ukraine took control of your PC and printer...