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tankarian
07-15-2011, 9:09 AM
Couldn't find a thread about this so I hope it's not a dupe.

"Internal ATF emails seem to suggest that ATF agents were counseled to highlight a link between criminals and certain semi-automatic weapons in order to bolster a case for a rule like the one the DOJ announced yesterday [Monday]."

Townhall has obtained the email which states "Can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same FfL and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks Mark R. Chait Assistant Director Field Operations."

Here is the email:

http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab40/katiepavlich/Screenshot2011-07-13at114656AM.png

Bhobbs
07-15-2011, 9:11 AM
I'm not surprised.

Government is anti freedom. The only way it can grow is to take more control from the people.

tankarian
07-15-2011, 9:16 AM
I'm not surprised.

Government is anti freedom. The only way it can grow is to take more control from the people.

Don't be surprised to read some replies saying Obama and Holder have nothing to do with this, it was all just a rogue operation. :rolleyes:

bulgron
07-15-2011, 9:18 AM
Don't be surprised to read some replies saying Obama and Holder have nothing to do with this, it was all just a rogue operation. :rolleyes:

Huh. And here I though Obama and Holder ARE the rogues ....

Glock22Fan
07-15-2011, 9:19 AM
Don't be surprised to read some replies saying Obama and Holder have nothing to do with this, it was all just a rogue operation. :rolleyes:

Naw, it's the birthers moving on now Obummer has produced his B.C. :rolleyes:

Drivedabizness
07-15-2011, 9:21 AM
Heads, lots of them, should roll for this

Blackhawk556
07-15-2011, 9:25 AM
I don't know this Mark guy, but has he been questioned on this operation?? He has to know waaaaaay more than we think. He says "We" are looking, who is "we"???

tankarian
07-15-2011, 9:26 AM
Huh. And here I though Obama and Holder ARE the rogues ....

Look at the date on the email: July 14 2010...you gotta be kidding, the entire scam blew up in their faces and they are still sticking to the plan like nothing has happened and issuing orders to ban multiple long guns sales.
Folks, these Obama administration liberals really believe we are a bunch of bible thumping, gun clinging semi-retarded rednecks they can con anytime they want. Time for an independent prosecutor.

6172crew
07-15-2011, 9:29 AM
Props to Katie Pavlich for digging into this mess.

The story is at townhall.com

vmwerks
07-15-2011, 9:32 AM
What is SIR? it's in the subject line. How can we be sure if it refers to the Fast and Furious case. Besides, they facilitated the sales, they would not have occured otherwise. Or is this the point? Me confused.

EDIT: It is also an RE: where is the rest of the message?

tankarian
07-15-2011, 9:34 AM
Rep. Blake Farenthold: Fast & Furious is a conspiracy to regulate and list gun owners:

nSatZvqfIF4

tankarian
07-15-2011, 9:39 AM
Another email:

http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab40/katiepavlich/Screenshot2011-07-14at43131PM.png

Katie Pavlich - Operation Fast and Furious - Designed to Promote Gun Control

_pHe3VXsS1Q

choprzrul
07-15-2011, 9:46 AM
Looking for the news article that rolled up all of these emails. It was on a thread for a few minutes yesterday, but that thread got moved/rolled up into another F&F thread and now I can't find it.

I can find email snippets on different stories, but can't locate the one that put them all together.

.

tankarian
07-15-2011, 9:49 AM
Looking for the news article that rolled up all of these emails. It was on a thread for a few minutes yesterday, but that thread got moved/rolled up into another F&F thread and now I can't find it.

I can find email snippets on different stories, but can't locate the one that put them all together.

.

Here: http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/07/13/operation_fast_and_furious_designed_to_promote_gun _control

FastFinger
07-15-2011, 9:56 AM
more drumbeats (http://biggovernment.com/jpollak/2011/07/15/grassley-and-issa-should-include-obama-and-clinton-in-operation-fast-and-furious-probe/#more-298604)

choprzrul
07-15-2011, 9:59 AM
Here: http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/07/13/operation_fast_and_furious_designed_to_promote_gun _control

That is a good link, but it isn't wholly inclusive of all of the emails in play.

.

CalBear
07-15-2011, 10:04 AM
Color me shocked. Conspiracy theories are dismissed until people realize they're true. The beginning of the operation coincided with the BS 90% talk, Calderon talking to congress, etc.. The Obama admin has been using Mexico as a vessel to get a renewed AWB, or at least more regulations all along. Do you really think they started F&F for altruistic reasons? It's part of a plan to gather "evidence" and exploit Mexican violence as a way to curtail American freedoms.

choprzrul
07-15-2011, 10:07 AM
Color me shocked. Conspiracy theories are dismissed until people realize they're true. The beginning of the operation coincided with the BS 90% talk, Calderon talking to congress, etc.. The Obama admin has been using Mexico as a vessel to get a renewed AWB, or at least more regulations all along. Do you really think they started F&F for altruistic reasons? It's part of a plan to gather "evidence" and exploit Mexican violence as a way to curtail American freedoms.

The emails in the news story that is referenced in my post above contain ample evidence of govt officials were conspiring to create just such an environment to facilitate regulation.

If only I could find it.

.

7.62x63mmUS
07-15-2011, 10:10 AM
Well with the economy in the *****ter and popularity declining they had to do something behinds the scenes to set up a strawman justification. The Brady Bunch is happy: http://www.bradycampaign.org/media/press/view/1414/

A good example of how government agencies granted powers above the law (i.e. THE CONSTITUTION) can do what whatever the hell they want without approval from we the people.

vmwerks
07-15-2011, 10:10 AM
[QUOTE=tankarian;6776960]Another email:

http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab40/katiepavlich/Screenshot2011-07-14at43131PM.png

Katie Pavlich - Operation Fast and Furious - Designed to Promote Gun Control


What I find disturbing / amusing is that they facilitated the purchases. The dealers were forced to break the law to build a case that the law was being broken..

As for consipracy theories most are just that.

choprzrul
07-15-2011, 10:17 AM
Found It (http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-st-louis/gunwalking-to-forcible-citizen-disarmament-tyranny-compelling-new-evidence)

.

MP301
07-15-2011, 10:21 AM
[QUOTE=tankarian;6776960]Another email:

http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab40/katiepavlich/Screenshot2011-07-14at43131PM.png

Katie Pavlich - Operation Fast and Furious - Designed to Promote Gun Control


What I find disturbing / amusing is that they facilitated the purchases. The dealers were forced to break the law to build a case that the law was being broken..

As for consipracy theories most are just that.

Yeah, sure thing. That is what this was until it wasnt.

A theory is speculation without any evidence. Add any amount of evidence and it becomes a possibility. Add enough evidence and it becomes a probability.

And if its the exception and not the rule, then why did 33 or the 35 most popular "conspiracy theories" turn out to be true?

Where there is smoke, there is usually fire. If the BHO crew would do this for more gun control, would it be a stretch to say that they may possibly be up to other dastardly deeds to further thier agenda or was this just thier only indescretion?

choprzrul
07-15-2011, 10:24 AM
Now they are tampering with witnesses (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunrunner-justice-department-tampering-with-witnesses/?singlepage=true)

tankarian
07-15-2011, 10:27 AM
Everyone who believes Obama and Holder are involved in this is a racist.

rjh4758
07-15-2011, 10:37 AM
Everyone who believes Obama and Holder are involved in this is a racist.

I haven't heard that defense in a while. As a matter of fact it has been a long time since I heard anyone defend him. :rolleyes:

rjh4758
07-15-2011, 10:55 AM
I bet Obama makes this debt ceiling talk last all summer to keep the media distracted. It is getting harder to keep the genie in the bottle.

jdberger
07-15-2011, 11:06 AM
Everyone who believes Obama and Holder are involved in this is a racist. [/sarcasm]

Honestly, saying stuff like that devalues your argument.

There you were, making a cogent and well reasoned case against the administration and then you suddenly veered into nutter territory.

If you want this story to have legs, it has to be perceived to be driven by people who don't have a personal vendetta against Obama.

Just sayin...

M. Sage
07-15-2011, 11:36 AM
Called it!

Midian
07-15-2011, 11:37 AM
Governments, or more precisely the corrupt rogue elements within them, stage crises in order to provide the solution that furthers their agenda...which, in almost all cases, results in greater restrictions on the governed. This is no exception.

21SF
07-15-2011, 11:46 AM
OK I have not been following this at all, can someone give a quick summary of this whole scandal?

jdberger
07-15-2011, 11:51 AM
OK I have not been following this at all, can someone give a quick summary of this whole scandal?

A brief letter I wrote to a journalist about the scandal and the background.

In about March of 2009 the media picked up on a theme that somehow, thousands of semi-automatic rifles were being smuggled from the US to Mexico for use in the drug trade. All the majors published articles about the cartel violence. Here's a little sample:

The NYT http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/27/op...fri3.html?_r=1
AlterNet http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter...g_the_country/
LA Times http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,3497661.story
http://projects.latimes.com/mexico-drug-war/#/its-a-war
WashPo http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...102801654.html (claims 100% of drug killings are with "US weapons")
Miami Herald http://www.miamiherald.com/news/amer...ry/947461.html
CNN http://www.50caliberterror.com/?p=27 (Video)
Detroit Free Press http://www.freep.com/article/20090301/NEWS07/903010428

At the time, claims were made by the Attorney General and others that as many as 90% of the guns recovered in crimes in Mexico originated in the US. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...t-weapons-ban/

It required a willful suspension of disbelief to buy into these articles. It's ludicrous to think that billionaire drug cartels who regularly smuggle millions of tons of drugs into the United States would patiently pay retail prices for civilian guns, fill out paperwork and endure the waiting period before delivery. Additionally, why would someone buy a machine gun in the US at the price of $11,000 when they could get one on the black market south of the border for $200? Why would they endure a thorough FBI background check, including being fingerprinted and paying a stiff tax to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives only to smuggle their machine gun to Mexico? Why would the same drug smuggling cartels who are able to build submarines in the jungle go through the hassle and paperwork of buying guns in the US when guns remaindered from the various civil wars?

The stories also contradicted an LA Times report that stated that grenades, machine guns and rocket launchers "...are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiautomatic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California." http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...626,full.story

With time, even the GAO debunked the 90% figure http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124528641705825899.html and even those numbers are suspected to be wildly inflated (http://grassley.senate.gov/news/Arti...eID_1502=35489).

About a year after the initial media push regarding cartel violence, ATF agents started coming forward and describing Government complicity in smuggling gun south. Apparently some folks had walked into gun shops and asked to buy 5 rifles. The shop owners put them off with excuses of not enough inventory - but said that they'd call their suppliers and the buyers should return in about a week. They promptly called ATF and ATF began Operations GunRunner and Fast & Furious. The gun stores (FFLs) were instructed to go forward with the sales while ATF conducted surveillance. ATF then allowed lots of these guns to cross the border - and then promptly lost them. (See Jon Stewart's amusing take on this here: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...--mexico-grift ).

ATF later prosecuted a bunch of these guys and made a big deal of it. For more info on ATF's gun smuggling foibles, please read http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...ject-gunwalker. It's slanted, obviously (the authors are gun-rights advocates) but it's pretty comprehensive.

Assuming that you've made it this far - the entire point of this email is that the administration's solution of requiring reporting of multiple long guns is a response to a government manufactured problem. FFLs are only too happy to report suspected traffickers to ATF. Bad apples taint the entire community. Further, there are plenty of laws on the books with serious penalties for arms traffickers, for instance:

*The 4473 has a blank for whether you are buying this gun for yourself. A false answer violates the GCA, 18 USC 924(A), and also 18 USC 1001.
*Anyone repeatedly buying and selling guns for a profit is engage in the business without a dealer's license, a violation of 18 USC 923(a). Penalty is up to five years imprisonment. 18 USC 924(a).
*Whoever, with reasonable cause to believe that a felony will be committed, transfers a firearm in interstate or foreign commerce, violates 18 USC 924(b), which carries a ten year sentence.
*Whoever carries a firearm in connection with a drug trafficking crime or crime of violence, violates 18 US 923(c), which carries five years without probation, consecutive to any sentence for the underlying crime.
*Exporting firearms without a State Dept license. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Export_Control_Act
And of course there's conspiracy, etc.

ChuangTzu
07-15-2011, 11:54 AM
Is there any evidence on the authenticity of these emails? I've always had a hard time accepting an email itself as evidence as anyone could have whipped those up in 5 minutes with nothing more sophisticated than mspaint.exe. Same with supposed chat logs. If one party to the emails isn't blowing the whistle, and servers haven't been seized and searched, what evidence is there? It all just seems too conveniently encapsulated in one email...

tankarian
07-15-2011, 12:07 PM
[/sarcasm]

Honestly, saying stuff like that devalues your argument.

There you were, making a cogent and well reasoned case against the administration and then you suddenly veered into nutter territory.

If you want this story to have legs, it has to be perceived to be driven by people who don't have a personal vendetta against Obama.

Just sayin...

I won't name names, but do a quick search in very recent threads and you'll find at least two ardent Obama supporters who are still trying sell the old "he never did anything against gun owners" talking point as late as 48 hours ago.
Then dig a little further back in time and you'll find plenty of other posts made by the same individuals accusing of racism everyone who disagrees with Obama's policies. They did it when the Obamacare debate was raging, they did it when closing Guantanamo was on the table, they did it when the bailouts were ardently discussed. You can be sure they will do it again when enough proof will be uncovered by the congressional investigation directly linking Obama to Fast & Furious because they always do it when their living God is in trouble and they can't find any other arguments to defend him.

Southwest Chuck
07-15-2011, 12:07 PM
Is there any evidence on the authenticity of these emails? I've always had a hard time accepting an email itself as evidence as anyone could have whipped those up in 5 minutes with nothing more sophisticated than mspaint.exe. Same with supposed chat logs. If one party to the emails isn't blowing the whistle, and servers haven't been seized and searched, what evidence is there? It all just seems too conveniently encapsulated in one email...

Ask Issa. Ask about his source. He supposedly included copies to Holder in a letter he wrote to him, from my understanding. I'm betting Melson is the source of these e-mails..... could be wrong though (on a lot of things :p )

Dutch3
07-15-2011, 12:30 PM
Is there any evidence on the authenticity of these emails? I've always had a hard time accepting an email itself as evidence as anyone could have whipped those up in 5 minutes with nothing more sophisticated than mspaint.exe. Same with supposed chat logs. If one party to the emails isn't blowing the whistle, and servers haven't been seized and searched, what evidence is there? It all just seems too conveniently encapsulated in one email...

There is a Federal requirement for email archiving that has been in place for 3 or 4 years. I would assume the Feds are complying with their own directive. It applies to any internal communications within an organization including email and instant messaging.

The requirements include being able to produce these communications in a timely manner if they are subpoenaed by a court, as well as guaranteeing they have not been altered or edited in any way. There are several ways of accomplishing this, and commercial solutions are available that archive the communications to a "WORM" tape drive (Write Once, Read Many). Most also include robust search engines that index the emails as they are stored by author, subject, keyword, etc.

Unfortunately, the regulation is not very clear on who must archive and for what length of time.

jdberger
07-15-2011, 12:31 PM
I won't name names, but do a quick search in very recent threads and you'll find at least two ardent Obama supporters who are still trying sell the old "he never did anything against gun owners" talking point as late as 48 hours ago.
Then dig a little further back in time and you'll find plenty of other posts made by the same individuals accusing of racism everyone who disagrees with Obama's policies. They did it when the Obamacare debate was raging, they did it when closing Guantanamo was on the table, they did it when the bailouts were ardently discussed. You can be sure they will do it again when enough proof will be uncovered by the congressional investigation directly linking Obama to Fast & Furious because they always do it when their living God is in trouble and they can't find any other arguments to defend him.

Agreed.

But most people don't have that kind of long term institutional knowlege of the forum and just see what you post here.

odysseus
07-15-2011, 12:34 PM
We would expect no less from them, especially looking back historically.

I am also curious what SIR is an acronym for in relation to this case.

BlackRain17
07-15-2011, 12:52 PM
Everyone who believes Obama and Holder are involved in this is a racist.

LOL... :rolleyes:

Anyone that brings the race card into a gun fight is a _____________. You fill in the blank...

Falstaff
07-15-2011, 12:55 PM
False flag operations are de rigeur for the us gov. Have been for a long time. If you think this was the worst they'll do you're sadly mistaken.

r3dn3ck
07-15-2011, 1:10 PM
There is a Federal requirement for email archiving that has been in place for 3 or 4 years. I would assume the Feds are complying with their own directive. It applies to any internal communications within an organization including email and instant messaging.

The requirements include being able to produce these communications in a timely manner if they are subpoenaed by a court, as well as guaranteeing they have not been altered or edited in any way. There are several ways of accomplishing this, and commercial solutions are available that archive the communications to a "WORM" tape drive (Write Once, Read Many). Most also include robust search engines that index the emails as they are stored by author, subject, keyword, etc.

Unfortunately, the regulation is not very clear on who must archive and for what length of time.

I worked for one of the companies contracted to do just one of the cabinet level agencies archiving, I was the backup architect for the company. They had never been in full compliance while I was there and the whole WORM thing was a joke. Writing 50TB of data at 52KB/s takes a while... they're not caught up on that. Apart from that, the WORM never gets used. They always pull from the portal which any Sysadmin has full access to.

The worst part was the judge in a suit against that agency kept ordering the cutting off their access to the internet so transfers were in a never ending state of trying to catch up, meaning that live data was being delayed for legacy data all the time. There's also nothing stopping a sysadmin on the Govt payroll from "losing" an index tape or a data tape or wiping out many terabytes of data on "accident".

What is archived is not magically authoritative. It's just part of the whole.

tankarian
07-15-2011, 1:43 PM
LOL... :rolleyes:

Anyone that brings the race card into a gun fight is a _____________. You fill in the blank...

You can't say that. It's too divisive. ;)

21SF
07-15-2011, 2:05 PM
jdberger thank you.

oldguy870
07-15-2011, 2:06 PM
Governments, or more precisely the corrupt rogue elements within them, stage crises in order to provide the solution that furthers their agenda...which, in almost all cases, results in greater restrictions on the governed. This is no exception.

This. Problem, reaction, solution.

The sheep have no clue. Even if you fully explain it with facts and proof, the sheep will still not believe it because it will cause them too much pain to accept uncomfortable truths.

wjc
07-15-2011, 2:13 PM
We would expect no less from them, especially looking back historically.

I am also curious what SIR is an acronym for in relation to this case.

I'm kinda guessing here, but the email indicates they need information for some kind of search or comparison. Could SIR stand for "Semantic Information Retrieval"?

http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/6904

Uxi
07-15-2011, 2:23 PM
Everyone who believes Obama and Holder are involved in this is a racist.

LOL, been hearing that creep up in the debt limit debates.

pointedstick
07-15-2011, 2:24 PM
This. Problem, reaction, solution.

The sheep have no clue. Even if you fully explain it with facts and proof, the sheep will still not believe it because it will cause them too much pain to accept uncomfortable truths.

The problem is, we're all willfully blind about some of the implications of this. The person who understands this concept in general and sees it in action with Fast And Furious may have a blind spot a mile wide regarding Medicare and Social security. And the person who understands them to be elaborate ponzi schemes facilitated by government control may think that foreign countries need invading and that the TSA protects us all. The key is to be consistent, but it's really hard to do!

Trailboss60
07-15-2011, 2:41 PM
Here: http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/07/13/operation_fast_and_furious_designed_to_promote_gun _control

Hey nothing to see here folks,http://www.covertconservatives.com/phpbb3/images/smilies/whistle.gif greywolf said Obama is our buddy!


:D

tankarian
07-15-2011, 2:56 PM
Hey nothing to see here folks,http://www.covertconservatives.com/phpbb3/images/smilies/whistle.gif greywolf siad Obama is our buddy!


:D

You can't name anybody, it's a personal attack. ;)

Trailboss60
07-15-2011, 3:00 PM
You can't name anybody, it's a personal attack. ;)


Well, I have already been called a racist, I'm working hard on improving, but it's tough!

tankarian
07-15-2011, 3:01 PM
LOL, been hearing that creep up in the debt limit debates.

Yep. Here it is:
Rep. Jackson Lee: Congress complicating debt ceiling because Obama is black (http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/171807-sheila-jackson-lee-suggests-congress-complicating-debt-ceiling-because-obama-is-black)
oh brother...:rolleyes:

choprzrul
07-15-2011, 3:14 PM
Is there any evidence on the authenticity of these emails? I've always had a hard time accepting an email itself as evidence as anyone could have whipped those up in 5 minutes with nothing more sophisticated than mspaint.exe. Same with supposed chat logs. If one party to the emails isn't blowing the whistle, and servers haven't been seized and searched, what evidence is there? It all just seems too conveniently encapsulated in one email...

Given the quality of the currently produced birth certificate, I can understand why you feel that way.

.

dantodd
07-15-2011, 3:23 PM
I don't see the specific connection to Fast & Furious. Anyone who says Pres. Obama and AG Holder are not looking for ways to pass new gun control laws to disarm America is ignorant or dishonest. These emails are really all the evidence we need of that (assuming they're authentic.)

However; I do not know that the busts they are asking about are related to Fast & Furious. It is reasonable to accuse this administration of being anti-2A (and this adds evidence for deniers.) But it is wholly another thing to assert that this is connected to in illegal operation.

vantec08
07-15-2011, 3:50 PM
A criminal conspiracy to violate the rights of American citizens. Eye-bleedingly, mind-numbingly obvious.

Connor P Price
07-15-2011, 4:00 PM
I have very little doubt that project "Fast and Furious" was designed to help bolster the argument for stricter gun control. However this email is far from being proof of that.

Its important to note that there is a difference between project "Gunrunner" and "Fast and Furious" (aka Gunwalker.) Although the nickname being so similar to Gunrunner people often get them confused.

If this email was about the Fast and Furious sales, there would be no reason to ask whether there were multiple long gun sales at the same FFL. They would already know. Its equally likely that this email was in connection with project Gunrunner (an above the board project involving e-traces of illegitimate sales of firearms.) That doesn't mean I think that they should be requiring ffls to report multiple long gun sales, I certainly don't think that is permissible; however this isn't the proof that everyone wants to think it is.

vantec08
07-15-2011, 4:08 PM
I have very little doubt that project "Fast and Furious" was designed to help bolster the argument for stricter gun control. However this email is far from being proof of that.

Its important to note that there is a difference between project "Gunrunner" and "Fast and Furious" (aka Gunwalker.) Although the nickname being so similar to Gunrunner people often get them confused.

If this email was about the Fast and Furious sales, there would be no reason to ask whether there were multiple long gun sales at the same FFL. They would already know. Its equally likely that this email was in connection with project Gunrunner (an above the board project involving e-traces of illegitimate sales of firearms.) That doesn't mean I think that they should be requiring ffls to report multiple long gun sales, I certainly don't think that is permissible; however this isn't the proof that everyone wants to think it is.

Legal proof and common-sense proof are two different things. But wait -- one must HAVE common sense. Silly me.

Paul S
07-15-2011, 4:10 PM
I won't name names, but do a quick search in very recent threads and you'll find at least two ardent Obama supporters who are still trying sell the old "he never did anything against gun owners" talking point as late as 48 hours ago.
Then dig a little further back in time and you'll find plenty of other posts made by the same individuals accusing of racism everyone who disagrees with Obama's policies. They did it when the Obamacare debate was raging, they did it when closing Guantanamo was on the table, they did it when the bailouts were ardently discussed. You can be sure they will do it again when enough proof will be uncovered by the congressional investigation directly linking Obama to Fast & Furious because they always do it when their living God is in trouble and they can't find any other arguments to defend him.

Appears to be an interesting twist to the phrase 'playing the race card.':rolleyes:

MasterYong
07-15-2011, 4:14 PM
I won't name names, but do a quick search in very recent threads and you'll find at least two ardent Obama supporters who are still trying sell the old "he never did anything against gun owners" talking point as late as 48 hours ago.
Then dig a little further back in time and you'll find plenty of other posts made by the same individuals accusing of racism everyone who disagrees with Obama's policies. They did it when the Obamacare debate was raging, they did it when closing Guantanamo was on the table, they did it when the bailouts were ardently discussed. You can be sure they will do it again when enough proof will be uncovered by the congressional investigation directly linking Obama to Fast & Furious because they always do it when their living God is in trouble and they can't find any other arguments to defend him.

These are the same types of people that call "racism" any time you speak out against illegal immigration. If I don't want people illegally moving to America, not paying taxes, then leaching off our social welfare systems (MY tax dollars), then I must HATE MEXICANS. Ridiculous.

ChuangTzu
07-15-2011, 4:58 PM
Ask Issa. Ask about his source. He supposedly included copies to Holder in a letter he wrote to him, from my understanding. I'm betting Melson is the source of these e-mails..... could be wrong though (on a lot of things :p )

Did these emails get released to Issa? All I see in the links in this thread is that they "have been obtained". No indication of via whom...

6172crew
07-15-2011, 5:42 PM
I emailed the lady who did the story asking her to sign up here to answer questions. Maybe she will show up.

Trailboss60
07-15-2011, 9:50 PM
I have very little doubt that project "Fast and Furious" was designed to help bolster the argument for stricter gun control. However this email is far from being proof of that....

I certainly don't think that is permissible; however this isn't the proof that everyone wants to think it is.



http://i847.photobucket.com/albums/ab40/katiepavlich/Screenshot2011-07-13at114656AM.png





http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/07/13/operation_fast_and_furious_designed_to_promote_gun _control

William Newell. He's (one of) the author(s) of the 2009 report to Congress upon which the whole 90% thing hinged. Newell is also the semi-former Phoenix SAC (and semi-promoted to go to Mexico to be an ATF liaison...all that's on hold). At a press conference a few months ago, he was asked if the ATF ever let guns "walk" to which he replied, "Hell no!"

Mr. Newell is now on record as being a liar.

Anchors
07-15-2011, 10:23 PM
Wow.

wheels
07-15-2011, 10:26 PM
If it wasn't for Issa and Grassley this would have never got any traction....Sad that this can happen.

Dutch3
07-16-2011, 6:11 AM
I worked for one of the companies contracted to do just one of the cabinet level agencies archiving, I was the backup architect for the company. They had never been in full compliance while I was there and the whole WORM thing was a joke. Writing 50TB of data at 52KB/s takes a while... they're not caught up on that. Apart from that, the WORM never gets used. They always pull from the portal which any Sysadmin has full access to.

The worst part was the judge in a suit against that agency kept ordering the cutting off their access to the internet so transfers were in a never ending state of trying to catch up, meaning that live data was being delayed for legacy data all the time. There's also nothing stopping a sysadmin on the Govt payroll from "losing" an index tape or a data tape or wiping out many terabytes of data on "accident".



Thanks for that information. My employer is currently not archiving. The administration "thinks" we are archiving because we keep deleted emails on the Exchange server for 30 days. They don't understand that doesn't meet the requirements for "archiving".

We have been approached by some vendors trying to sell us a solution, but of course the sales reps only demonstrate the positive features and ignore the possible failure mechanisms. How large were the systems you were involved with (i.e., how many users)?

oldguy870
07-16-2011, 6:32 AM
The problem is, we're all willfully blind about some of the implications of this. The person who understands this concept in general and sees it in action with Fast And Furious may have a blind spot a mile wide regarding Medicare and Social security. And the person who understands them to be elaborate ponzi schemes facilitated by government control may think that foreign countries need invading and that the TSA protects us all. The key is to be consistent, but it's really hard to do!

Pointedstick, I agree. SS and Medicare, along with the US dollar ARE Ponzi schemes. I hate the Nazi TSA. Not even the Soviets treated their people like the TSA treats Americans. And, I do not agree with all our illegal wars (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Sudan, and Yemen).

cdtx2001
07-16-2011, 9:23 AM
So, when are they gonna bring Obama up on charges of treason and/or impeach him?

kcbrown
07-16-2011, 10:22 AM
The problem is, we're all willfully blind about some of the implications of this. The person who understands this concept in general and sees it in action with Fast And Furious may have a blind spot a mile wide regarding Medicare and Social security. And the person who understands them to be elaborate ponzi schemes facilitated by government control may think that foreign countries need invading and that the TSA protects us all. The key is to be consistent, but it's really hard to do!

I don't find it to be difficult at all. It just requires you to always go where the evidence leads, and to detach your ego from your beliefs. In essence, it requires that you allow your beliefs to be evidence-driven.

It requires you to, basically, "do science" to your beliefs, just like you might with any other claim for which your primary goal is to get to the truth. And I've always thought that approach to be the most sensible means of ensuring the correctness of one's beliefs.

donw
07-16-2011, 10:40 AM
Heads, lots of them, should roll for this

yeh...i agree...but they'll turn it around so we look like the bad guys...:(

donw
07-16-2011, 10:48 AM
Pointedstick, I agree. SS and Medicare, along with the US dollar ARE Ponzi schemes. I hate the Nazi TSA. Not even the Soviets treated their people like the TSA treats Americans. And, I do not agree with all our illegal wars (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Sudan, and Yemen).

yes...the SS and medicare MAY be ponzi schemes, but i did pay into them, by law all my life...you probably did/do, too; i now collect. i heard on the news that there are some 70 million SS checks paid out monthly...that includes veterans benefits (which i am eligible for, too.)

are we "Bad guys" for collecting on what we paid for and were promised?

"Well, Stanley...a fine mess you've gotten us into..."...Laurel and Hardy

nick
07-16-2011, 1:55 PM
I worked for one of the companies contracted to do just one of the cabinet level agencies archiving, I was the backup architect for the company. They had never been in full compliance while I was there and the whole WORM thing was a joke. Writing 50TB of data at 52KB/s takes a while... they're not caught up on that. Apart from that, the WORM never gets used. They always pull from the portal which any Sysadmin has full access to.

The worst part was the judge in a suit against that agency kept ordering the cutting off their access to the internet so transfers were in a never ending state of trying to catch up, meaning that live data was being delayed for legacy data all the time. There's also nothing stopping a sysadmin on the Govt payroll from "losing" an index tape or a data tape or wiping out many terabytes of data on "accident".

What is archived is not magically authoritative. It's just part of the whole.

Interesting. The company I currently work for, and a few of my clients, have to archive data fro compliance (SOX, HIPAA). I didn't run into such problems when designing the backup systems for either one of them. It sounds like those agencies had a "personnel problem", but that's a common problem with government agencies. Some of what passes for IT people there haven't updated their skills since the 70's, and at the same time, since they HAVE been working there since the 70's, they have seniority.

nick
07-16-2011, 1:57 PM
Thanks for that information. My employer is currently not archiving. The administration "thinks" we are archiving because we keep deleted emails on the Exchange server for 30 days. They don't understand that doesn't meet the requirements for "archiving".

We have been approached by some vendors trying to sell us a solution, but of course the sales reps only demonstrate the positive features and ignore the possible failure mechanisms. How large were the systems you were involved with (i.e., how many users)?

Archiving properly enough to meet compliance guidelines isn't hard. PM me if you want some info to point you in the right direction.

oni.dori
07-16-2011, 5:26 PM
"Under the radar" at its finest.

oldguy870
07-16-2011, 6:13 PM
yes...the SS and medicare MAY be ponzi schemes, but i did pay into them, by law all my life...you probably did/do, too; i now collect. i heard on the news that there are some 70 million SS checks paid out monthly...that includes veterans benefits (which i am eligible for, too.)

are we "Bad guys" for collecting on what we paid for and were promised?

"Well, Stanley...a fine mess you've gotten us into..."...Laurel and Hardy

Don, your point is well taken. Even though these socialist programs are wrong, you did pay into them and DO deserve your benefits.

However, to break the bad news, all Ponzi schemes eventually collapse. SS, medicare, and the US dollar will collapse. It is a mathematical certainty.

No one knows exactly when.

Anchors
07-16-2011, 6:35 PM
These are the same types of people that call "racism" any time you speak out against illegal immigration. If I don't want people illegally moving to America, not paying taxes, then leaching off our social welfare systems (MY tax dollars), then I must HATE MEXICANS. Ridiculous.

Weird. All my (legal) friends of Mexican heritage don't like illegal immigration and are actually harsher and talk more crap about illegals than anyone here ever has...they must be racists.
I would estimate that half or more of my friends come from a Mexican background.

I emailed the lady who did the story asking her to sign up here to answer questions. Maybe she will show up.

Nice. That would be cool.

Uriah02
07-16-2011, 6:49 PM
I bet Obama makes this debt ceiling talk last all summer to keep the media distracted. It is getting harder to keep the genie in the bottle.

Like they need another "wag the dog" type crisis?

Connor P Price
07-16-2011, 7:01 PM
yes...the SS and medicare MAY be ponzi schemes, but i did pay into them, by law all my life...you probably did/do, too; i now collect. i heard on the news that there are some 70 million SS checks paid out monthly...that includes veterans benefits (which i am eligible for, too.)

are we "Bad guys" for collecting on what we paid for and were promised?

"Well, Stanley...a fine mess you've gotten us into..."...Laurel and Hardy

No, it doesn't make you a bad guy for collecting, but that doesn't make it suck any less that I'll pay into SS most of my working life but it will be dried up before I ever get to collect.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

pointedstick
07-16-2011, 8:16 PM
No, it doesn't make you a bad guy for collecting, but that doesn't make it suck any less that I'll pay into SS most of my working life but it will be dried up before I ever get to collect.

Sent from my SGH-T959 using Tapatalk

Indeed, I'm in the same situation. I fully understand the structure of the system and the foundation of its finances, and I read the reports (http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html) by the social security actuaries—and I don't expect to receive a penny by the time I'm 65. But the real tragedy is the antagonism between the generations that it's created. The young feel robbed when they're on the extraction end, and the old get defensive once they're on the receiving end. It pits young and old against one another, as their interests truly are opposed.

Bobby Hated
07-16-2011, 8:49 PM
you guys need to check the news. you missed the best part:

the cartel gun runners the ATF "wanted to arrest" were actually on the FBI's payroll.

you just cant make this stuff up.

Trailboss60
07-16-2011, 8:56 PM
you guys need to check the news. you missed the best part:

the cartel gun runners the ATF "wanted to arrest" were actually on the FBI's payroll.

you just cant make this stuff up.


It's a pretty incestuous relationship...they are all sharing the same bed, and not-so-coincidentally, they all fall under the direction of the justice dept.

Lex Arma
07-16-2011, 9:01 PM
I would love to see a criminal defense analysis of these cases from the perspective of the 'targets' the FBI/ATF intended to arrest/prosecute.

Entapement by estoppel is a valid defense on a federal gun charge. Based on how badly these facts are turning out to be for the government, I wouldn't be surprised if any potential defendants wouldn't have been acquitted anyway.

At best, this was incompetence to the point of professional malpractice on the part of the Gov't agencies (and their lawyers) IF they dreamed these operations up solely to catch bad guys.

If this IS a false flag op, then obviously some rooms need to be made available at Club Fed for some soon-to-be former federal employees.

But the most cynical, disgusting and malignant interpretation of these facts would be that it was a mixture of bad ideas AND opportunistic leveraging of a semi-manufactured crisis. Something like, "We'll authorize these operations with the primary goal of catching bad guys, but hey, if we get to eviscerate the 2nd Amendment at the same time, that'll be gravy." (and maybe get me promoted to the head of some agency)

Think about it, this last scenario would be worse, not better than an actual conspiracy.

That cold knot in the pit of my stomach is growing as I contemplate
Levithan's growing power and corruption.

Mute
07-16-2011, 9:21 PM
I would love to see a criminal defense analysis of these cases from the perspective of the 'targets' the FBI/ATF intended to arrest/prosecute.

Entapement by estoppel is a valid defense on a federal gun charge. Based on how badly these facts are turning out to be for the government, I wouldn't be surprised if any potential defendants wouldn't have been acquitted anyway.

At best, this was incompetence to the point of professional malpractice on the part of the Gov't agencies (and their lawyers) IF they dreamed these operations up solely to catch bad guys.

If this IS a false flag op, then obviously some rooms need to be made available at Club Fed for some soon-to-be former federal employees.

But the most cynical, disgusting and malignant interpretation of these facts would be that it was a mixture of bad ideas AND opportunistic leveraging of a semi-manufactured crisis. Something like, "We'll authorize these operations with the primary goal of catching bad guys, but hey, if we get to eviscerate the 2nd Amendment at the same time, that'll be gravy." (and maybe get me promoted to the head of some agency)

Think about it, this last scenario would be worse, not better than an actual conspiracy.

That cold knot in the pit of my stomach is growing as I contemplate
Levithan's growing power and corruption.

Very insightful. Unfortunately, I would not be surprised if much of the latter is true, with Obama and Holder looking to eviscerate the 2nd Amendment and the rest of the bureaucrats looking to score brownie points, Comstitution be damned.

oldguy870
07-16-2011, 9:24 PM
Indeed, I'm in the same situation. I fully understand the structure of the system and the foundation of its finances, and I read the reports (http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html) by the social security actuaries—and I don't expect to receive a penny by the time I'm 65. But the real tragedy is the antagonism between the generations that it's created. The young feel robbed when they're on the extraction end, and the old get defensive once they're on the receiving end. It pits young and old against one another, as their interests truly are opposed.

Good observation. They want to pit us against each other. The more we fight among ourselves, the less we look at those in charge of creating the problem.

Divide and conquer.

Anchors
07-16-2011, 9:53 PM
Still barely any media coverage on this, even on "conservative radio".

Either the Second Amendment isn't an important civil right or the administration under Obama can do no wrong.

Maybe a combination of both at this point?

thrillhouse700
07-17-2011, 2:16 AM
Makes sense to me. But where are all of the CGers making fun of you for being a conspiracy theorist? Because, there is no such thing as conspiracies.

choprzrul
07-17-2011, 9:24 AM
you guys need to check the news. you missed the best part:

the cartel gun runners the ATF "wanted to arrest" were actually on the FBI's payroll.

you just cant make this stuff up.


Not surprising given that the whole intent of the operation was to create anti-gun data. They probably leveraged their cartel contacts to help with the operation. This is why they were not concerned about losing contact with the guns at the border: they already knew where they were heading. Somewhere south of the border, someone went off of the reservation and sold those weapons. That is the point where things fell apart on .gov.

.

BigDogatPlay
07-17-2011, 11:49 AM
Still barely any media coverage on this, even on "conservative radio".

Either the Second Amendment isn't an important civil right or the administration under Obama can do no wrong.

Maybe a combination of both at this point?

The ongoing machinations in DC around the debt crisis and the phone hacking scandal in the UK are the big stories right now. When the dominoes are properly lined up to tumble, coupled with a slow news day or two....that's when you'll see the press lid on F&F come off.

Anchors
07-17-2011, 6:21 PM
The ongoing machinations in DC around the debt crisis and the phone hacking scandal in the UK are the big stories right now. When the dominoes are properly lined up to tumble, coupled with a slow news day or two....that's when you'll see the press lid on F&F come off.

I hope so, but I will remain skeptical until then...

Bobby Hated
07-18-2011, 6:01 AM
here's the link to the LA Times story about how the gun runners were apparently on the FBI's payroll:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-cartel-guns-20110717,0,6972222.story

socal2310
07-18-2011, 9:25 AM
Makes sense to me. But where are all of the CGers making fun of you for being a conspiracy theorist? Because, there is no such thing as conspiracies.

A few highly placed individuals conspiring together is one thing and relatively common. Conspiracy theories such as those promulgated by the likes of Alex Jones are simply too big to be believable: they attribute god-like powers to government conspirators. If the conspiracies are that wide ranging and organized, we stand no chance, period.

Most of what the tin foil beanie crowd sees as conspiracy are simply a natural confluence of the interests of bureaucrats, elected officials and political appointees as described by Don Kilmer.

As he has also noted, that makes it worse. A conspiracy can be (and commonly has been) brought down by one conspirator going rogue. Simple opportunism is rarely punished adequately. Generally not even enough to stop the players, much less discourage others from following in their footsteps.

Ryan

GrayWolf09
07-18-2011, 3:27 PM
"Fast and Furious" is about as big a cluster (fill in the blank) as you can possibly imagine.

But this is where the GOP and NRA attitude of "take no prisoners and bring down the Obama administration" hurts us and hurts gun rights. As part of their "obstruct at any cost" strategy, they have blocked President Obama's appointment of the head of the ATF. If I were President Obama, I would express outrage at "Fast and Furious" say it was rogue agents and brand the ATF as an agency which had run amuck as the result of a lack of leadership. Then I would blame the GOP and the NRA for blocking my appointee and hold them responsible for the consequent lack of leadership. On the other hand, if the GOP and NRA had allowed the confirmation of the new director then the blame would fall explicitly on President Obama's shoulders.

The fallback position is the since Melson is a Bush appointee, you can always "blame it on Bush".;);)

Dutch3
07-18-2011, 8:19 PM
Or since Melson is essentially a "temp", you could blame it on him. Except he ain't buying it.

Sort of reminds me of Ollie North and Iran-Contra.

Trailboss60
07-18-2011, 9:02 PM
"Fast and Furious" is about as big a cluster (fill in the blank) as you can possibly imagine.

But this is where the GOP and NRA attitude of "take no prisoners and bring down the Obama administration" hurts us and hurts gun rights. As part of their "obstruct at any cost" strategy, they have blocked President Obama's appointment of the head of the ATF. If I were President Obama, I would express outrage at "Fast and Furious" say it was rogue agents and brand the ATF as an agency which had run amuck as the result of a lack of leadership. Then I would blame the GOP and the NRA for blocking my appointee and hold them responsible for the consequent lack of leadership. On the other hand, if the GOP and NRA had allowed the confirmation of the new director then the blame would fall explicitly on President Obama's shoulders.

The fallback position is the since Melson is a Bush appointee, you can always "blame it on Bush".;);)

Do you really even believe in the 2nd amendment? The GOA and the NRA are obstructing? Offering advice to Obama on how to lie his way out of this mess he concocted...then fall back to the blame it on Bush strategy?

I have seen Obama worshipers, but you really take the cake.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQE1dl5nFF4Ut0yYVZ033TElfxmwaKl6 N3r2RrugugSmA7yB-2A

GrayWolf09
07-18-2011, 9:57 PM
Do you really even believe in the 2nd amendment? The GOA and the NRA are obstructing? Offering advice to Obama on how to lie his way out of this mess he concocted...then fall back to the blame it on Bush strategy?

I have seen Obama worshipers, but you really take the cake.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQE1dl5nFF4Ut0yYVZ033TElfxmwaKl6 N3r2RrugugSmA7yB-2A

I understand that the easiest way for you to explain anything that falls outside your belief system is to chalk it up to Obama worship. If you had actually read my posts you would realize that I am rather disappointed in President Obama because to a large extent his administration bears a startling resemblance to the third term of George Bush.:eek:

The question I am raising is do the GOP and the NRA really believe in the 2nd Amendment or are they merely using it (and us for that matter) for their own monetary and political ends?:mad:

Do you really even believe in the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments or are you one of those "wet your pants conservatives" who is so afraid of another terrorist attack that they are willing to trade their civil rights for the illusory promise of security and that they will let you keep your guns?:confused:

oldguy870
07-19-2011, 7:36 AM
'Do you really even believe in the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments or are you one of those "wet your pants conservatives" who is so afraid of another terrorist attack that they are willing to trade their civil rights for the illusory promise of security and that they will let you keep your guns?'

Thanks Graywolf. That is the best thing I have read this month! "Wet your pants conservative". I am going to be using this term a lot in the future.

tankarian
07-19-2011, 7:47 AM
Do you really even believe in the 2nd amendment? The GOA and the NRA are obstructing? Offering advice to Obama on how to lie his way out of this mess he concocted...then fall back to the blame it on Bush strategy?

I have seen Obama worshipers, but you really take the cake.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQE1dl5nFF4Ut0yYVZ033TElfxmwaKl6 N3r2RrugugSmA7yB-2A

Textbook example of how the notions of right and wrong are replaced by blind political faithfulness. In such cases there is no good and evil anymore; ideology has taken the place or reason, a political personality has taken the place of God.
Imagine you don't have your guns anymore and you are at the mercy of such people. I've seen this happening. They will rat their own parents and put a bullet through head of their best friends if Dear Leader Who Can Do No Wrong says they're enemies of the people.