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buochie
07-15-2011, 1:41 AM
My local dealer received a call about me today! About time, I think I have transferred over 20+ guns in the last three years. Two bad I only have about four of them, I buy something then shoot it for a while then sell it. My dealer advised them that I had my C&R and COE and they said OH! Anyone else had this happen?

Anchors
07-15-2011, 5:34 AM
No, but I have heard people claim that the ATF told them if they did anymore transactions in one year they would need to get an FFL.
I really don't see how the ATF can legally force that. I don't think they should be able to.

If I want to buy ten Glock 17s and sell nine of them two months later, as long as I'm not making a profit (see: engaging in business) on the sales, who cares?

tenpercentfirearms
07-15-2011, 8:05 AM
Get ready, they might be getting ready to deny your 1 in 30 day exemption. If that happens, please contact the CGF. You can do so through me or through our website.

http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/

Blackhawk556
07-15-2011, 8:28 AM
MRWILMOTH......it's official, you're a gun nut :) congrats

bwiese
07-15-2011, 8:32 AM
If you have been transferring (i.e., selling to others) "20+ guns in three years" you may indeed be over the 6 gun per year transfer amount. You can buy as many guns as you want, in general; you can only really do "under 6 transactions* per year selling them.

wash
07-15-2011, 8:38 AM
So what you are saying is if he had not sold them through an FFL (as required by law), ATF would not raise a flag.

This is so backward, it essentially rewards illegal activity and hassles law abiding people.

ojisan
07-15-2011, 8:50 AM
Each "transaction" can be for one or more handguns...but only 6 "transactions" per year maximum.
There is an exemption for a "one-time" or "rare occurance" volume sale...example: you have to sell all your guns because you are moving to a foreign country where you can't take the guns with you.

dustoff31
07-15-2011, 8:51 AM
So what you are saying is if he had not sold them through an FFL (as required by law), ATF would not raise a flag.

This is so backward, it essentially rewards illegal activity and hassles law abiding people.

Are we sure ATF raised the flag? The OP indicated that CA DOJ called the dealer. And as Bill indicated, the 6 per/yr thing is a state law.

timdps
07-15-2011, 9:03 AM
If you have been transferring (i.e., selling to others) "20+ guns in three years" you may indeed be over the 6 gun per year transfer amount. You can buy as many guns as you want, in general; you can only really do 6 *transactions* per year selling them.

Snarky ATF comment:
So the ATF is suggesting that it is better to sell in large blocks instead of one at a time? This works much better for the cartels...

Real question:
Does the "6 per year" refer to handguns only, or to handguns and long guns together? I was under the impression that "6 per year" refers specifically to handguns.

Tim

wash
07-15-2011, 9:03 AM
Does it matter?

It's all alphabet soup to me.

The point is there would be no flag if he had made all the same transactions, just not used an FFL to do them.

The law flags people who obey the law, not those who break it.

dustoff31
07-15-2011, 9:13 AM
Does it matter?

It's all alphabet soup to me.

The point is there would be no flag if he had made all the same transactions, just not used an FFL to do them.

The law flags people who obey the law, not those who break it.

Yeah it does matter. How are you going correct something if you don't know where or what the problem is?

The point is there would be no flag if only BATFE was involved. This is CA's doing.

Hilldweller
07-15-2011, 10:07 AM
Each "transaction" can be for one or more handguns...but only 6 "transactions" per year maximum.
There is an exemption for a "one-time" or "rare occurance" volume sale...example: you have to sell all your guns because you are moving to a foreign country where you can't take the guns with you.

How do you apply for that exemption?
Can you use it for your 7th transaction?
Is this in a calendar year - or does the "year" start from the date of the first transaction?

I've been wondering because I have a few for sale and sold individually it would force me to wait, which is a pain because I am planning on moving.

One more thing...this apply to long guns too?

Flopper
07-15-2011, 10:13 AM
So if I want to buy and sell a lot of guns I need an FFL? I wouldn't mind an FFL but because of where I live it would be impossible.

Because of Heller and McDonald doesn't that mean it would have to be shall issue since otherwise it would be an infringement of a fundamental right.

ojisan
07-15-2011, 10:54 AM
How do you apply for that exemption?
No application needed.
Can you use it for your 7th transaction?
Playing with fire, IMHO.
Is this in a calendar year - or does the "year" start from the date of the first transaction? 1st transaction date

I've been wondering because I have a few for sale and sold individually it would force me to wait, which is a pain because I am planning on moving.

One more thing...this apply to long guns too? I believe that long guns are exempt, but you still have to be sure that it does not look like you are buying and selling long arms for profit.


I am not a lawyer, don't quote me, this is my recollection.
The official rules are here somewhere on CalGuns, but I am not good with search.
Hopefully one of the super-knowledgable members will chime in here soon.

blakdawg
07-15-2011, 11:39 AM
If you have been transferring (i.e., selling to others) "20+ guns in three years" you may indeed be over the 6 gun per year transfer amount. You can buy as many guns as you want, in general; you can only really do 6 *transactions* per year selling them.

I read PC 12070 to say that only "infrequent" sales, leases, or transfers of firearms are permissible to people who are not licensed as dealers; and 12070(c)(1)(A) says that "infrequent" means

For handguns, less than six transactions per calendar year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of handguns.

So, assuming that firearms are essentially atomic units (such that one can't transfer a partial firearm), "less than six" means "five" to me.

So I understand 12070 to limit non-dealers to five handgun sales transactions per year, not six.

Is there another angle on this that I'm missing?

Wherryj
07-15-2011, 12:07 PM
No, but I have heard people claim that the ATF told them if they did anymore transactions in one year they would need to get an FFL.
I really don't see how the ATF can legally force that. I don't think they should be able to.

If I want to buy ten Glock 17s and sell nine of them two months later, as long as I'm not making a profit (see: engaging in business) on the sales, who cares?

If these are the new rules, I expect my wife to soon get a call from the mall about her "catch and release" policy. She does alot of "transfers" after recent purchases as well.

BKinzey
07-15-2011, 12:32 PM
No, but I have heard people claim that the ATF told them if they did anymore transactions in one year they would need to get an FFL.
I really don't see how the ATF can legally force that. I don't think they should be able to.

If I want to buy ten Glock 17s and sell nine of them two months later, as long as I'm not making a profit (see: engaging in business) on the sales, who cares?

Engaging in business does not equal making a profit. They are seperate. With your example lets say I buy 10 Glocks. Then I spend $1,000 on a safe to keep them in. 2 months later I've sold 9 of them at $100 more each than I paid for them. Factoring in the cost of the safe I'm still $100 in the hole but that doesn't mean I'm not running a business.

Wherryj
07-15-2011, 1:06 PM
Engaging in business does not equal making a profit. They are seperate. With your example lets say I buy 10 Glocks. Then I spend $1,000 on a safe to keep them in. 2 months later I've sold 9 of them at $100 more each than I paid for them. Factoring in the cost of the safe I'm still $100 in the hole but that doesn't mean I'm not running a business.

The corollary is that making a profit is not necessarily the definition of engaging in business. If you buy one Glock, keep it for a month then decide that you don't like it and sell it for $200 more than you paid before purchasing another model of Glock, you may have just decided that you didn't like the first model.

9mmdude
07-15-2011, 1:14 PM
I read PC 12070 to say that only "infrequent" sales, leases, or transfers of firearms are permissible to people who are not licensed as dealers; and 12070(c)(1)(A) says that "infrequent" means



So, assuming that firearms are essentially atomic units (such that one can't transfer a partial firearm), "less than six" means "five" to me.

So I understand 12070 to limit non-dealers to five handgun sales transactions per year, not six.

Is there another angle on this that I'm missing?

The law is 5 handgun transactions per calendar year. Each transaction can be multiple handguns and still count as one transaction. For rifles and shotguns there is not a limit it just must be infrequent.

The law as it is written is too restrictive. If you can buy 12 a year you should be able to sell 12 a year. (I don't agree with that one either.)

Ctwo
07-15-2011, 1:51 PM
Engaging in business does not equal making a profit. They are seperate. With your example lets say I buy 10 Glocks. Then I spend $1,000 on a safe to keep them in. 2 months later I've sold 9 of them at $100 more each than I paid for them. Factoring in the cost of the safe I'm still $100 in the hole but that doesn't mean I'm not running a business.

How are you $100 in the hole? You still have the safe. If the safe went with the guns, then you'd be out the $100.

warbird
07-15-2011, 3:13 PM
I bet both DOJ and AFT have computer programs they can run to tell how many guns you have bought and sold for any time period no matter how many dealers you transfer through. It does not take manpower to do that. Manpower comes into play when they look at the type of guns you are buying and selling. A lot of C&R will probably get you a pass. A lot of "modern" stuff will get you looked at. Just like with cars in time they will say if you sell more than so many per year we are going to "Assume" you are dealing and you will be guilty until you prove yourself innocent. They hold all the cards because they can revoke your CCW, your gun card, and anything else. And they can demand records at any time. Big brother is coming and pretty soon we may be donating for a civil case against this kind of intrusion.

Anchors
07-15-2011, 7:48 PM
If you have been transferring (i.e., selling to others) "20+ guns in three years" you may indeed be over the 6 gun per year transfer amount. You can buy as many guns as you want, in general; you can only really do 6 *transactions* per year selling them.

I know of the six transactions...that is a CA DOJ thing, correct?
Since the ATF has no business in private party sales in most states.

So what you are saying is if he had not sold them through an FFL (as required by law), ATF would not raise a flag.

This is so backward, it essentially rewards illegal activity and hassles law abiding people.

Welcome to every single piece of gun restricting legislation ever.
They ALL reward illegal activity and ONLY punish law abiding citizens.


Engaging in business does not equal making a profit. They are seperate. With your example lets say I buy 10 Glocks. Then I spend $1,000 on a safe to keep them in. 2 months later I've sold 9 of them at $100 more each than I paid for them. Factoring in the cost of the safe I'm still $100 in the hole but that doesn't mean I'm not running a business.

I see your point, but I think that was a bad example haha.
The other poster who said just because you made $200 on a single sale doesn't mean you are in business just like losing money doesn't mean you aren't makes sense though.
I still feel like I should be able to sell 20 handguns to 20 different people if I feel like it as long as I'm not making money, but I don't make the rules.

How are you $100 in the hole? You still have the safe. If the safe went with the guns, then you'd be out the $100.

Yeah. I thought the same thing.

Baconator
07-15-2011, 8:07 PM
Hey, I bought an LCP from you. I feel responsible for your plight.

buochie
07-20-2011, 7:39 PM
I was in the shop the other day and my friend said they called a total of 4 times, wow I feel special! Apparently the last time they called they said that the reason I was red flagged was because I bought more then one gun in 30 days (which I did, but one was new and one was ftf) They could have just pulled up their records and found that I had a c&r and coe!

radioman
07-21-2011, 12:17 AM
We jump from one foot to the other, and for what? to stop crime, I don't think think so.
the criminal does what he wants to, the gun control we have here is so much bull stuff, now if we had laws that stopped crime that would be one thing, how about a felon with a gun gets ten years, and if it's stolen five more years for that. I don't use my guns for crime, I don't buy them off the streets, and I hope no one here does. So why does this state make us jump from one foot to the other when the criminal gets a free pass?????