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View Full Version : Need advice re: separation/divorce, updated post #7, clarify


1911_Mitch
07-13-2011, 10:49 PM
Have a nice collection of guns and seems separation/divorce is eminent.
Advice would help.
Thanks.

mes227
07-13-2011, 10:53 PM
My advise is this: if you are trying to avoid the guns getting considered as part of your community property then you are conspiring to defraud your spouse and at the minimum you shouldn't talk about it on public forums!

stitchnicklas
07-13-2011, 10:53 PM
umm...

you can ppt interfamily handguns more then 1, 1 in 30 is for new/used guns from a dealer not ppt's.

transfer before wife gets suspicious or she will get you.

stitchnicklas
07-13-2011, 10:54 PM
My advise is this: if you are trying to avoid the guns getting considered as part of your community property then you are conspiring to defraud your spouse and at the minimum you shouldn't talk about it on public forums!

giving gift is not illegal

five.five-six
07-13-2011, 10:56 PM
being as TROs are all too common in separations, transferring them now is probably a good idea

Dave A
07-13-2011, 11:03 PM
Talk to an attorney before you do anything and do it ASAP. You don't show in what state you live in and it makes a big difference.

1911_Mitch
07-13-2011, 11:16 PM
So if transfering between a parent and child or a grandparent and grandchild:

Handguns require the Operation of Law Interfamilial Transfer form and the $19 fee for 1 or more handguns.

Longguns are exempt from the dealer transfer requirements. Is there any paperwork to 'prove' a transfer? or what?


Quote from DOJ website: "...the transfer of a firearm between a parent and child or a grandparent and grandchild is exempt from the dealer transfer requirement. However, if the firearm is a handgun, you must submit a Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction"

jamesob
07-13-2011, 11:23 PM
Remember that she is entitled to have of everything, that also includes all debts. With that said, you can negotiate some of her debt so you can keep your goodies.

stitchnicklas
07-13-2011, 11:35 PM
give the guns to trusted family members and pay the dang dros fee to do it through a dealer so they are legally transferred and untouchable.this way you can say i do not want my guns anymore and legally gave them to my family and they are now not mine.marriage does not mean she has to give you permission to sell guns legally in your name.and a tro with guns involved means trouble,if she goes the tro route and you to a judge you can say i got rid of all my guns already and here are copies of the dros to prove it. no seizure no fuss.

BlackRain17
07-13-2011, 11:59 PM
My advise is this: if you are trying to avoid the guns getting considered as part of your community property then you are conspiring to defraud your spouse and at the minimum you shouldn't talk about it on public forums!

I'm not a lawyer or been through a divorce but how is your firearm considered community property? Women don't claim their shoe collections as community property. :rolleyes:

Falconis
07-14-2011, 12:05 AM
It was my understanding all property acquired before the marriage is yours. Everything bought after the marriage is up for negotiations.

Me thinks you need a lawyer.

Eddie1965
07-14-2011, 12:21 AM
I went through a divorce a couple of years ago; my exwife is not an anti but doesn't like to go shooting. Anyway, we are dividing up the furniture when she brings up my guns. I asked why she wants my guns and she says "I don't know, I can always sell them". I counter offer "Ok, give me half of your designer purses (which exceeds the value of ALL my guns put together)". She asks "why do you want by purses?" I answer "I don't know, I can always sell them". Try to negotiate with her and if that doesn't work get a good lawyer.

WTSGDYBBR
07-14-2011, 12:24 AM
Go run up your CC .

rjh4758
07-14-2011, 1:06 AM
Don't know the reason for your divorce but you can always transfer them to a qualifying family member and pay the $19. If you are ever question on why you gave the guns away just say " I did not know how ugly the divorce was going to get and I was afraid my wife might use one against me. I feel safer if the house was gun free, so I gave them away.". CA being what it is I doubt you will be questioned any further.

InGrAM
07-14-2011, 1:31 AM
Transfer them ASAP. And remember kids, the leading cause of divorce is marriage ;)

bjl333
07-14-2011, 1:56 AM
Remember only handguns are on record!

SkyStorm82
07-14-2011, 2:55 AM
Do you think it is going to get ugly?

RandyD
07-14-2011, 6:57 AM
I am a family law attorney. Separate property is not divided, it is confirmed by the court as a party's separate property. Community property is divided.

Property that you owned prior to marriage is a party's separate property. Property acquired during marriage is presumed to be community property and is subject to being divided between the parties. Property acquired by gift or inheritance is a recipient's separate property. Property that is unique and personal to a party is their separate property. The typical examples of this are clothing, jewelry, hand tools, and sometimes firearms.

I typically claim that a man's firearms are his separate property if he is the only one to use them, and if they have a relative small value compared to the value of the community estate. Since you are describing your firearms as a collection, that implies that they were acquired for their value rather than their use.

On the back of a family law summons there are automatic restraining order that are binding on both parties. One of those orders prohibits the parties from selling, disposing, transfering or concealing any property. If you dispose of your firearm collection prior to the filing of a divorce action, your spouse can file a motion to set aside any transactions going back 4 years.

tgriffin
07-14-2011, 7:02 AM
Wow 4 years... From the sounds of it.... You are in for a ride buddy. Good luck.

dustoff31
07-14-2011, 7:53 AM
I am a family law attorney. Separate property is not divided, it is confirmed by the court as a party's separate property. Community property is divided.

Property that you owned prior to marriage is a party's separate property. Property acquired during marriage is presumed to be community property and is subject to being divided between the parties. Property acquired by gift or inheritance is a recipient's separate property. Property that is unique and personal to a party is their separate property. The typical examples of this are clothing, jewelry, hand tools, and sometimes firearms.

I typically claim that a man's firearms are his separate property if he is the only one to use them, and if they have a relative small value compared to the value of the community estate. Since you are describing your firearms as a collection, that implies that they were acquired for their value rather than their use.

On the back of a family law summons there are automatic restraining order that are binding on both parties. One of those orders prohibits the parties from selling, disposing, transfering or concealing any property. If you dispose of your firearm collection prior to the filing of a divorce action, your spouse can file a motion to set aside any transactions going back 4 years.

And if anyone should doubt you on this, I'll offer up my former BIL whose divorce was recently finalized to set them straight.

He thought he would get over by transferring all his guns, as well as a bunch of other assets, after being served with divorce papers. He was very, very wrong.

cadurand
07-14-2011, 7:54 AM
Well I think RandyD just cleared everything up for us.

4 years, wow.

Steve1968LS2
07-14-2011, 8:43 AM
I went through a divorce a couple of years ago; my exwife is not an anti but doesn't like to go shooting. Anyway, we are dividing up the furniture when she brings up my guns. I asked why she wants my guns and she says "I don't know, I can always sell them". I counter offer "Ok, give me half of your designer purses (which exceeds the value of ALL my guns put together)". She asks "why do you want by purses?" I answer "I don't know, I can always sell them". Try to negotiate with her and if that doesn't work get a good lawyer.

Exactly.. half her shoes.. half her purses.. half of her non-gift jewlery..

You would be surprised how fast she would lose interest in your guns.

The best thing is to keep it civil and just use logic to move her towards your posistion.. and have a great lawyer.

Steve1968LS2
07-14-2011, 8:45 AM
Wow 4 years... From the sounds of it.... You are in for a ride buddy. Good luck.

Actually 4 years is good, better than 5+ .. I think under 5 you can get a Summary Disolution (something like that).. it's what I did and it was way less drama.

Also, guns (assets) he owned before the marriage would most likely be exempt.

greg36f
07-14-2011, 9:17 AM
Exactly.. half her shoes.. half her purses.. half of her non-gift jewlery..

You would be surprised how fast she would lose interest in your guns.

The best thing is to keep it civil and just use logic to move her towards your posistion.. and have a great lawyer.


Stay away from lawyers if you can. Be nice to each other, be willing to compromise (a bit) even if you think you are right, don't let you emotions (this is the hard part) get the best of you. If she wants 51% of everything; give it to her, because two lawyers are going to suck WAY MORE than that from the estate.

I know of someone who went to a paralegal service and got it all done for under a thousand dollars. The estate involved a house and a decent amout of money, but they remained civil and got it done like adults.

You loved each other at one point remember that and try to get out of this without hurting each other more than you already have.

I have been through this myself and I have been a LEO for aver 20 years. I have been to MANY disturbances where a divorcing couple is fighting over a stupid TV or some other small, easily replicated / replaceable item. Trust me; you both look like a couple of stupid, childish fools. From point on, no one takes you seriously and it's hard to regain that dignity you lost over a few dollars.

pennys dad
07-14-2011, 10:11 AM
:-( my ex-wife went after everything even my guns, fortunately the judge offered me a deal on the guns and I just paid her a settlement

hawk1
07-14-2011, 10:18 AM
... And remember kids, the leading cause of divorce is marriage ;)

And the leading cause of marriage is kids...:p

kermitz
07-14-2011, 10:23 AM
At least get all of your weapons out of the house, if you are still living together. I know someone who's ex made claims of violence, got a restraining order and his weapons were confiscated for good.

loose_electron
07-14-2011, 10:34 AM
1. Get a lawyer.
2. Ignore all the advice here about tranfers and other nonsense.
3. Get a lawyer.

I am not a lawyer, but have been thru the divorce process. If you are going to start transferring, giving away stuff to family and friends so it can't be attached, you are creating a bigger mess that will just cost you more in lawyers fees to untangle after the fact.

Did I say get a lawyer?

loose_electron
07-14-2011, 10:37 AM
Get a Lawyer Before You Do Anything!

andytothemax
07-14-2011, 10:39 AM
I am a family law attorney. Separate property is not divided, it is confirmed by the court as a party's separate property. Community property is divided.

Property that you owned prior to marriage is a party's separate property. Property acquired during marriage is presumed to be community property and is subject to being divided between the parties. Property acquired by gift or inheritance is a recipient's separate property. Property that is unique and personal to a party is their separate property. The typical examples of this are clothing, jewelry, hand tools, and sometimes firearms.

I typically claim that a man's firearms are his separate property if he is the only one to use them, and if they have a relative small value compared to the value of the community estate. Since you are describing your firearms as a collection, that implies that they were acquired for their value rather than their use.

On the back of a family law summons there are automatic restraining order that are binding on both parties. One of those orders prohibits the parties from selling, disposing, transfering or concealing any property. If you dispose of your firearm collection prior to the filing of a divorce action, your spouse can file a motion to set aside any transactions going back 4 years.

:iagree: I no longer practice family law but in the past I have handled a number of high asset divorces that were aggressively litigated. If you were to transfer your collection in contemplation of an imminent divorce, it would look really bad even if you technically didn't violate the TRO's that go along with filing the action. For example, in one case I had, a husband did multiple 1031 exchanges worth millions of dollars just after obtaining our client's consent to sell off all their commercial property. It was established through the depositions of other people that he did this because he planned a permanent move to another state...which is where all the new properties were located. That looked really, really bad and the trial court, after a 73 day trial, is about to award our client some $4 million in attorney fees as a result of the husband's breach of fiduciary duties through these and other bad acts.

I second the advice of one of the other posters that litigating your divorce may cost you more than the difference in value between your gun collection and her jewelry and other separate property. If I were an attorney you were consulting, I would strongly advise you to keep the collection as-is and work something out with your soon to be ex-spouse. You can also use a mediator without lawyers, which would be far cheaper. That way you keep more of your money and it doesn't go to the lawyers. The reason I mention this is that there's something called a FLARPL-- Family Law Attorney's Real Property Lien--that lets you or your spouse pay the attorneys by recording a lien against your house or other real property. Just imagine all the lawyers who would salivate over the chance to own part of your house and get paid when it's sold to satisfy their legal bills. Get the picture? In small cases litigating a divorce is not economical.

Gray Peterson
07-14-2011, 10:41 AM
On the back of a family law summons there are automatic restraining order that are binding on both parties. One of those orders prohibits the parties from selling, disposing, transfering or concealing any property. If you dispose of your firearm collection prior to the filing of a divorce action, your spouse can file a motion to set aside any transactions going back 4 years.

Wouldn't that run into a Heller & McDonald problem (taking soemone's gun away) and also a 5th amendment takings problem too?

See if you can see this scenario for a second: Husband in a relationship intrafamilial transfers a handgun to an 18 year old daughter for home protection (let's assume mom is out of state or deceased) A year later the stepmother files for divorce from the husband, and files a motion to set aside transactions. The husband is under an financial restraining order (not a DV one) to purchase any more firearms. Judge grants the stepmother/wife's motion to set aside transaction. , taking away the 18 year old's handgun. 19 year old can't acquire another handgun due to the function of California law.

Gray Peterson
07-14-2011, 10:43 AM
You know, we have a lawyer who is uniquely qualified to do both Family Law and Firearms Law. It's a guy named [url=http://www.dklawoffice.com]Don Kilmer[/i].

loose_electron
07-14-2011, 10:44 AM
I am a family law attorney. Separate property is not divided, it is confirmed by the court as a party's separate property. Community property is divided.

Property that you owned prior to marriage is a party's separate property. Property acquired during marriage is presumed to be community property and is subject to being divided between the parties. Property acquired by gift or inheritance is a recipient's separate property. Property that is unique and personal to a party is their separate property. The typical examples of this are clothing, jewelry, hand tools, and sometimes firearms.

I typically claim that a man's firearms are his separate property if he is the only one to use them, and if they have a relative small value compared to the value of the community estate. Since you are describing your firearms as a collection, that implies that they were acquired for their value rather than their use.

On the back of a family law summons there are automatic restraining order that are binding on both parties. One of those orders prohibits the parties from selling, disposing, transfering or concealing any property. If you dispose of your firearm collection prior to the filing of a divorce action, your spouse can file a motion to set aside any transactions going back 4 years.

Well stated. Having gone through this stuff a few years ago, the only good advice friends can give is to seek out a family law attorney. What was "friendly and cooperative" can get totally twisted around PDQ.

RandyD
07-14-2011, 10:54 AM
At least get all of your weapons out of the house, if you are still living together. I know someone who's ex made claims of violence, got a restraining order and his weapons were confiscated for good.


I agree that you should remove your firearms and any other valuables from her having access to them. I did my best friend's divorce, and he had an antique firearm that ended up missing. The firearm belonged to his great grandfather and had been handed down in the family until it reached my friend, and then the firearm turned up missing. Of course his wife knew that he had a lot of sentimental value attached to that particular firearm.

Wherryj
07-14-2011, 10:56 AM
umm...

you can ppt interfamily handguns more then 1, 1 in 30 is for new/used guns from a dealer not ppt's.

transfer before wife gets suspicious or she will get you.

This would specifically entail hiding of assets. I think that the advice that the poster is looking for is how to offer up other communal assets such as the cars/big screen TVs, etc. in lieu of the firearms?

RandyD
07-14-2011, 10:59 AM
Wouldn't that run into a Heller & McDonald problem (taking soemone's gun away) and also a 5th amendment takings problem too?

See if you can see this scenario for a second: Husband in a relationship intrafamilial transfers a handgun to an 18 year old daughter for home protection (let's assume mom is out of state or deceased) A year later the stepmother files for divorce from the husband, and files a motion to set aside transactions. The husband is under an financial restraining order (not a DV one) to purchase any more firearms. Judge grants the stepmother/wife's motion to set aside transaction. , taking away the 18 year old's handgun. 19 year old can't acquire another handgun due to the function of California law.

A party can request the court to set aside any transaction within the last four years. However, that party has to show the transaction was done without their knowledge, and it was for a fraudulent purpose to defeat their community property interest. Not all transactions will meet this standard and the court will only set aside those transactions that satisfy the standard. The typical scenario is when a party gives away or sells for a nominal cost, an item of community property.

RandyD
07-14-2011, 11:09 AM
Well stated. Having gone through this stuff a few years ago, the only good advice friends can give is to seek out a family law attorney. What was "friendly and cooperative" can get totally twisted around PDQ.

Many marital dissolutions start out on amicable terms and end up being fully litigated. Sometimes it is the fault of one or more of the attorneys or one or more of the parties. I have been doing family law for 18 years, and I have a metaphor for this scenario. Parties going through divorces are like smoldering embers, and the attorneys representing the parties in a divorce can either be gasoline or water. One mixture is will ignite into a litigious war and the other will put out the fire and resolve the case.

stitchnicklas
07-14-2011, 11:21 AM
sorry but i have no wants of lawyers,use them if you must.

at least remove all firearms from the home to prevent any hijinks by said wife.there is no legal problem with removing your own home,as if she calls cops will being a b-word saying you have a gun and the cops show up you can say all guns were removed long ago and she is lying.if you really love one gun give it away.women are very vindictive when it comes to divorce just ask a few guys here 45david1 had a nasty sounding one ...


protect your assets and anything you do not want to disappear from her,if a court wants a location give it,but don't go down like limp seal on bashing day

RandyD
07-14-2011, 11:27 AM
sorry but i have no wants of lawyers,use them if you must.

at least remove all firearms from the home to prevent any hijinks by said wife.there is no legal problem with removing your own home,as if she calls cops will being a b-word saying you have a gun and the cops show up you can say all guns were removed long ago and she is lying.if you really love one gun give it away.women are very vindictive when it comes to divorce just ask a few guys here 45david1 had a nasty sounding one ...


protect your assets and anything you do not want to disappear from her,if a court wants a location give it,but don't go down like limp seal on bashing day

People like to blame their attorneys for the high legal costs involved in marital dissolutions, but the advice you have given in this thread, creates distrust and causes parties to polarize against each other which causes more attorney hours and legal fees.

andytothemax
07-14-2011, 11:36 AM
sorry but i have no wants of lawyers,use them if you must.

at least remove all firearms from the home to prevent any hijinks by said wife.there is no legal problem with removing your own home,as if she calls cops will being a b-word saying you have a gun and the cops show up you can say all guns were removed long ago and she is lying.if you really love one gun give it away.women are very vindictive when it comes to divorce just ask a few guys here 45david1 had a nasty sounding one ...


protect your assets and anything you do not want to disappear from her,if a court wants a location give it,but don't go down like limp seal on bashing day

Although I understand RandyD's concerns and agree with most of them, I think the advice to remove the entire collection from the house is a good idea in order to avoid an allegation of domestic violence. Just put the collection in storage and produce the key on demand. However, by removing your collection you will be tipping off your wife that something big is coming down the pipe. It's your call.

Krak
07-14-2011, 11:37 AM
I went through a divorce a couple of years ago; my exwife is not an anti but doesn't like to go shooting. Anyway, we are dividing up the furniture when she brings up my guns. I asked why she wants my guns and she says "I don't know, I can always sell them". I counter offer "Ok, give me half of your designer purses (which exceeds the value of ALL my guns put together)". She asks "why do you want by purses?" I answer "I don't know, I can always sell them". Try to negotiate with her and if that doesn't work get a good lawyer.

:-( my ex-wife went after everything even my guns, fortunately the judge offered me a deal on the guns and I just paid her a settlement

I'm never getting married. :eek:

Briancnelson
07-14-2011, 11:46 AM
Listen to the family law attorney, he is right. I repeat, listen to the family law attorney, do not listen to the man giving you bad advice and telling you not to get a lawyer.

The best time to get a lawyer is always now, not after you f'ed up and it will cost 4x as much to fix. Then, follow his advice since you are paying for it.

I'm corporate/real estate, not family, but I see this all the time in my practice as well on price. We cost so much sometimes because people only come to us after they realized they should have come to us in the first place. Or they ignore our advice because it seems like too much work when they can just cut corners.

The clients I have who ask first and follow my advice rarely get in trouble and therefore have very small legal bills. The rest of them keep me in business.

andytothemax
07-14-2011, 11:50 AM
Listen to the family law attorney, do not listen to the man giving you bad advice and telling you not to get a lawyer.

The best time to get a lawyer is always now, not after you f'ed up and it will cost 4x as much to fix.

We cost so much sometimes because people only come to us after they realized they should have come to us in the first place. The clients I have who ask first and follow my advice rarely get in trouble and therefore have small bills.

:iagree:An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. OP should hire a lawyer on limited scope representation to draft a marital settlement agreement before the divorce is even filed. Present it to her and say you're breaking up, and that you want to do this as economically as possible.

stitchnicklas
07-14-2011, 11:56 AM
Although I understand RandyD's concerns and agree with most of them, I think the advice to remove the entire collection from the house is a good idea in order to avoid an allegation of domestic violence. Just put the collection in storage and produce the key on demand. However, by removing your collection you will be tipping off your wife that something big is coming down the pipe. It's your call.

and if you are worried about the wife and divorce so much think about this...


she knows you have guns,you know this,if it is a absolute to you it most likely is to her also.

HAVE YOU CONSIDERED OR THOUGHT SHE MAY USE YOUR OWN GUN ON YOU??
IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE,women can be very emotional or hormonal,or psychotic when it comes to divorce...consider your safety physically and legally when it comes to guns. DV ,TRO'S,threats and all such are a danger to 2a rights and women all know this ,she might want to screw you out of your 2a rights out of spite...

so if you don't care about your guns staying yours at least store them off-site at a family members house,if divorce happens and judge orders split then so be it,at least you get to keep your 2A rights and not give that to her too....CYA!!!

RandyD
07-14-2011, 12:49 PM
and if you are worried about the wife and divorce so much think about this...


she knows you have guns,you know this,if it is a absolute to you it most likely is to her also.

HAVE YOU CONSIDERED OR THOUGHT SHE MAY USE YOUR OWN GUN ON YOU??
IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE,women can be very emotional or hormonal,or psychotic when it comes to divorce...consider your safety physically and legally when it comes to guns. DV ,TRO'S,threats and all such are a danger to 2a rights and women all know this ,she might want to screw you out of your 2a rights out of spite...

so if you don't care about your guns staying yours at least store them off-site at a family members house,if divorce happens and judge orders split then so be it,at least you get to keep your 2A rights and not give that to her too....CYA!!!

I agree. If you do not want an item becoming lost, then remove it for safekeeping. This is not the same as disposing of the item.

Anyone who anticipates that there may be violence, or even threats of violence, then remove all firearms immediately. I represented a member on this site in a DVTRO case, and his wife tried to make allegations that he used a weapon. Fortunately, all his firearms were locked in a safe, and the police were able to verify his statement, and we prevailed at the hearing.

radioman
07-14-2011, 8:39 PM
This is a community property state. Did you buy the guns before or after you took a wife, if before they are yours, if after, then they are half her's and half yours. I don't get it, you eat the pie, but then don't want to pay the bill. do the right thing. Pay the bill....

sierratangofoxtrotunion
07-15-2011, 1:47 AM
I'm not a lawyer or been through a divorce but how is your firearm considered community property? Women don't claim their shoe collections as community property. :rolleyes:

If she's involved in shooting, yeah it's totally community property IF you acquired it while married and if it WASN'T a gift or inheritance to you. If it's totally your hobby and she has no desire to have anything to do with it, you should be able to keep it all.

It was my understanding all property acquired before the marriage is yours. Everything bought after the marriage is up for negotiations.

Yes, to a degree. She's not going to take half or your shirts and you're not going to take half of her dresses. It doesn't work that way.

I went through a divorce a couple of years ago; my exwife is not an anti but doesn't like to go shooting. Anyway, we are dividing up the furniture when she brings up my guns. I asked why she wants my guns and she says "I don't know, I can always sell them". I counter offer "Ok, give me half of your designer purses (which exceeds the value of ALL my guns put together)". She asks "why do you want by purses?" I answer "I don't know, I can always sell them". Try to negotiate with her and if that doesn't work get a good lawyer.

LOL this has some truth in it.

I am a family law attorney. Separate property is not divided, it is confirmed by the court as a party's separate property. Community property is divided.

Property that you owned prior to marriage is a party's separate property. Property acquired during marriage is presumed to be community property and is subject to being divided between the parties. Property acquired by gift or inheritance is a recipient's separate property. Property that is unique and personal to a party is their separate property. The typical examples of this are clothing, jewelry, hand tools, and sometimes firearms.

I typically claim that a man's firearms are his separate property if he is the only one to use them, and if they have a relative small value compared to the value of the community estate. Since you are describing your firearms as a collection, that implies that they were acquired for their value rather than their use.

A clear, concise summary.

And if anyone should doubt you on this, I'll offer up my former BIL whose divorce was recently finalized to set them straight.

He thought he would get over by transferring all his guns, as well as a bunch of other assets, after being served with divorce papers. He was very, very wrong.

Yep, he's kind of a moron.

Stay away from lawyers if you can. Be nice to each other, be willing to compromise (a bit) even if you think you are right, don't let you emotions (this is the hard part) get the best of you. If she wants 51% of everything; give it to her, because two lawyers are going to suck WAY MORE than that from the estate.

This. You'll easily run up $1k in lawyer fees arguing about a $500 gun. Be smart about this, you both need to realize how much fighting over stuff costs, and not run up those bills.

:iagree: I no longer practice family law but in the past I have handled a number of high asset divorces that were aggressively litigated. If you were to transfer your collection in contemplation of an imminent divorce, it would look really bad even if you technically didn't violate the TRO's that go along with filing the action.

I second the advice of one of the other posters that litigating your divorce may cost you more than the difference in value between your gun collection and her jewelry and other separate property. If I were an attorney you were consulting, I would strongly advise you to keep the collection as-is and work something out with your soon to be ex-spouse. You can also use a mediator without lawyers, which would be far cheaper. In small cases litigating a divorce is not economical.

More good advice. If you two can try to be amicable with each other, go the mediator route, it's a lot cheaper.

I agree that you should remove your firearms and any other valuables from her having access to them. I did my best friend's divorce, and he had an antique firearm that ended up missing. The firearm belonged to his great grandfather and had been handed down in the family until it reached my friend, and then the firearm turned up missing. Of course his wife knew that he had a lot of sentimental value attached to that particular firearm.

Don't "make stuff go away." Valuables can be moved somewhere for safekeeping, but funny business WILL END BAD FOR YOU. In the case of guns, I would suggest that a friend or two can hold them in safe keeping for you for a while. Depending on the situation, it may make things more calm, as there isn't a fear of you getting pissed off and getting a gun. Don't DROS them away, don't do any of that. Retain ownership of them, but have them be located somewhere else and safe. Like somebody said above, she wants your guns about as much as you want her purses. Even if she "wants" them because she wants to stick it to you or profit off their sale or something, if it's your hobby and not hers, then a decent lawyer or mediator should be able to make sure you keep them.

Tip on making the division of property get done for cheap: Get two legal tablets and pens and $20 and two good friends who you both trust are good people. Go down to Starbucks, order some drinks and snacks and sit down at a table in the back, the two friends sit at a table nearby. Amicably work out who wants what and if you both want something, make deals or figure something out. The public thing is to make sure both of you keep your cool. The friends thing is so that if you want to take a break, talk to somebody who's got your back and is in your corner, bounce ideas off him, get another perspective. Get as much done with this method as possible. Then go to the lawyers/mediator with what you've hashed out already, they may need to make adjustments to it, and if there was something you guys couldn't come to an agreement on, they may be able to handle it.

Seeker
07-15-2011, 4:45 AM
Oh man, after reading through the posts on the 1st page i dont think i wanna get married now...:willy_nilly:

Anchors
07-15-2011, 6:32 AM
All I can say is that if I ever get married I'm getting a prenuptial agreement and having a really solid attorney draft it even if I am making minimum wage.
I don't care how much I love her or how cool she is. If she's really the one she will understand that it protects her as well as me.

Sorry about your split up man, I hope you get to keep your firearms and other possessions that SHOULD be understood to be yours.

andytothemax
07-15-2011, 6:52 AM
All I can say is that if I ever get married I'm getting a prenuptial agreement and having a really solid attorney draft it even if I am making minimum wage.
I don't care how much I love her or how cool she is. If she's really the one she will understand that it protects her as well as me.

Sorry about your split up man, I hope you get to keep your firearms and other possessions that SHOULD be understood to be yours.

This is more good advice. NEVER use one of the pre-printed "do it yourself" kits (http://www.standardlegal.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?AFFIL=01290&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SLcom&Product_Code=SLS516) that are available on the internet. NEVER.

redcliff
07-15-2011, 8:16 AM
Have a nice collection of guns and seems separation/divorce is eminent.
Advice would help.
Thanks.

You've gotten some very good advice on how to proceed with a divorce; I just think someone should mention the alternative.

Having been through divorce before, sadly twice, I encourage all my friends to try to work through the problems and stay married, especialy if kids are involved. Like someone else posted, you loved each other once, see if you can find what it was and restore it if possible.

Marriage is hard work; its not alway convenient and its sometimes messy. But divorce will be very hard, will definitely be inconvenient, is almost unbelievably messy and will affect you financially (and often emotionally) for years to come.

I know not all marriages can be saved, but sometimes we tend to throw in the towel too soon before exhausting other options like counseling. My first wife became unbearable; there was no way I could work things out. My second wife I should never of divorced and should of worked harder on that marriage. I've tried to learn from the pain of my mistake and my current relationship has been for over 10 years now and I try to keep the romance going and at least show I care every single day. We haven't married due to some financial turmoil in my life that I don't want to drag her into, but were totally dedicated.

Don't enter into divorce lightly; treat it like a self-defense shooting; only in "the gravest extreme".

RandyD
07-15-2011, 8:49 AM
You've gotten some very good advice on how to proceed with a divorce; I just think someone should mention the alternative.

Having been through divorce before, sadly twice, I encourage all my friends to try to work through the problems and stay married, especialy if kids are involved. Like someone else posted, you loved each other once, see if you can find what it was and restore it if possible.

Marriage is hard work; its not alway convenient and its sometimes messy. But divorce will be very hard, will definitely be inconvenient, is almost unbelievably messy and will affect you financially (and often emotionally) for years to come.

I know not all marriages can be saved, but sometimes we tend to throw in the towel too soon before exhausting other options like counseling. My first wife became unbearable; there was no way I could work things out. My second wife I should never of divorced and should of worked harder on that marriage. I've tried to learn from the pain of my mistake and my current relationship has been for over 10 years now and I try to keep the romance going and at least show I care every single day. We haven't married due to some financial turmoil in my life that I don't want to drag her into, but were totally dedicated.

Don't enter into divorce lightly; treat it like a self-defense shooting; only in "the gravest extreme".

Well said. It is uncommon these days for someone to encourage people to stay in and work on their marriages. Too many people treate marriage as something to throw away when it is no longer fun or convenient. Children suffer as a result of parents not sticking with it.

Trailboss60
07-15-2011, 9:10 AM
This thread prompted me to start one about something that may be worthy of consideration for those entering into a divorce, regarding Ca., Mako's post might be well worth taking note;

http://arizonashooting.com/v3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=138932

mrrsquared79
07-15-2011, 3:43 PM
I'm never getting married. :eek:

^QFT, its cheaper to rent them, all I can hope for is that I get ones that are nice enough to turn the TV off after asking them to leave when I'm done...

bruss01
07-15-2011, 6:34 PM
I'm fortunate to be with a woman I truly love, and who I believe truly loves me.

I think marriage is worth working on and worth investing in and definitely worth weathering some rough times and stormy seas...

However, when it's over... it's OVER. There's no point in doing cpr on a 3-day corpse.

Live, learn... and move forward. Good luck with it man, divorces suck but life can be sweet again, if you manage not to get screwed to bad (or worse, F yourself up through ill-advised action). Get a good lawyer - not nasty but definitely thick skinned and thorough. You'll be glad you did.

IGOTDIRT4U
07-15-2011, 6:40 PM
being as TROs are all too common in separations, transferring them now is probably a good idea

If the Op is worried about a contentious divorce and a possible (false) TRO, yeah, get them out of there, legally transferred.

anthonyca
07-15-2011, 6:59 PM
I agree. If you do not want an item becoming lost, then remove it for safekeeping. This is not the same as disposing of the item.

Anyone who anticipates that there may be violence, or even threats of violence, then remove all firearms immediately. I represented a member on this site in a DVTRO case, and his wife tried to make allegations that he used a weapon. Fortunately, all his firearms were locked in a safe, and the police were able to verify his statement, and we prevailed at the hearing.

What happened to her for making a false statement?

Women need to be prosecuted for making false statements to police and the courts. Until this happens to you, you will never understand. Imagine a nightmare where you know you are innocent but are in handcuffs and the truth doesn't matter.

Briancnelson
07-15-2011, 7:03 PM
You've gotten some very good advice on how to proceed with a divorce; I just think someone should mention the alternative.

Having been through divorce before, sadly twice, I encourage all my friends to try to work through the problems and stay married, especialy if kids are involved. Like someone else posted, you loved each other once, see if you can find what it was and restore it if possible.

Marriage is hard work; its not alway convenient and its sometimes messy. But divorce will be very hard, will definitely be inconvenient, is almost unbelievably messy and will affect you financially (and often emotionally) for years to come.

I know not all marriages can be saved, but sometimes we tend to throw in the towel too soon before exhausting other options like counseling. My first wife became unbearable; there was no way I could work things out. My second wife I should never of divorced and should of worked harder on that marriage. I've tried to learn from the pain of my mistake and my current relationship has been for over 10 years now and I try to keep the romance going and at least show I care every single day. We haven't married due to some financial turmoil in my life that I don't want to drag her into, but were totally dedicated.

Don't enter into divorce lightly; treat it like a self-defense shooting; only in "the gravest extreme".

That's the best advice in this thread right there.

RandyD
07-15-2011, 9:35 PM
What happened to her for making a false statement?

Women need to be prosecuted for making false statements to police and the courts. Until this happens to you, you will never understand. Imagine a nightmare where you know you are innocent but are in handcuffs and the truth doesn't matter.

I have done a significant number of DVTRO hearings and it is common for the judge to comment that one party is not believable, but I have never seen a prosecution for perjury.

anthonyca
07-15-2011, 9:42 PM
I have done a significant number of DVTRO hearings and it is common for the judge to comment that one party is not believable, but I have never seen a prosecution for perjury.

That needs to change. Someone should sue for defamation.

Have you heard of this group? http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/?cat=11

To the OP, I hope this works out as best as possible.

RandyD
07-16-2011, 6:10 AM
That needs to change. Someone should sue for defamation.

Have you heard of this group? http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/?cat=11

To the OP, I hope this works out as best as possible.

Thanks for the link. I looked at the site and bookmarked it.

In California, whatever a person states or writes in a court proceeding is exempted from defamation and libel. The problem is perjury is rampant and common, and in my opinion, this is caused by the court and prosecutorial agencies not pursing perjury charges. In 18 years of doing family law, I have never even heard of someone being prosecuted for perjury in a family law action. Most DAs want more convictions to boost their chances of being reelected, and the people who lie in family law cases would be low hanging fruit for them.

Trailboss60
07-16-2011, 7:59 AM
That's the best advice in this thread right there.

I agree...

1911_Mitch
07-16-2011, 10:46 PM
Thanks all for the advice, especially redcliff.

Completed extensive counseling, and unfortunately its over- she is not willing to continue. We have been married 15 years, have had 3 homes together, are both professionally employed, and 39 years old. Many complicated factors, including children whom we both love and will particiapte. I was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in February.

I have proactively moved all guns/weapons to locked safe over 100 miles away at parents house. I have a firearms appraisal (Aug.2010) and they are already covered under fathers insurance during their safe keeping. Father is willing for transfer, but I will wait until any necessary (TRO)/legal advice before doing anything.

Wanting to mediate and keep things amicable, but advice angles toward representation. I like the idea of working out possessions first, but it gets complicated with house sale, stocks, 401k, health care, etc.

I am expecting a family lawyer recommendation early next week from my fathers business connections.

Thanks all.

stitchnicklas
07-16-2011, 11:18 PM
Wanting to mediate and keep things amicable, but advice angles toward representation. I like the idea of working out possessions first, but it gets complicated with house sale, stocks, 401k, health care, etc.

I am expecting a family lawyer recommendation early next week from my fathers business connections.

Thanks all.

sounds heavy...

you get 1 house she get 1 and 3rd gets sold and split or rented and split.
stocks/401's split in to your own only,health care is a wash but you should get priority for that nasty "C" you got beat in to remission.


mediation and alot of patience..

kids should be shielded as much as possible too.......

RandyD
07-17-2011, 9:10 AM
Thanks all for the advice, especially redcliff.

Completed extensive counseling, and unfortunately its over- she is not willing to continue. We have been married 15 years, have had 3 homes together, are both professionally employed, and 39 years old. Many complicated factors, including children whom we both love and will particiapte. I was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in February.

I have proactively moved all guns/weapons to locked safe over 100 miles away at parents house. I have a firearms appraisal (Aug.2010) and they are already covered under fathers insurance during their safe keeping. Father is willing for transfer, but I will wait until any necessary (TRO)/legal advice before doing anything.

Wanting to mediate and keep things amicable, but advice angles toward representation. I like the idea of working out possessions first, but it gets complicated with house sale, stocks, 401k, health care, etc.

I am expecting a family lawyer recommendation early next week from my fathers business connections.

Thanks all.

Sorry to hear about the pancreatic cancer. You have my prayers for healing.

Given that your community estate involves three houses, I am assuming thatthe value of your firearms is a nominal percentage of the community estate and therefore would recommend that they be characterized as your separate property.

Since you have real property and a lengthy marriage, my suggestion is to not retain an attorney that has less than 10 years of experience in family law matters.

anthonyca
07-17-2011, 10:04 AM
It's terrible all the things you are going through at once. I'm not religious but you are in my thoughts.

Trailboss60
07-17-2011, 2:29 PM
Wow, Pancreatic cancer? That in and of itself is pretty heavy Mitch, we will be praying for you.

FERGUSON
07-18-2011, 7:47 AM
if its most likely going to get ugly, ppt them to a close friend or a couple close friends.

redcliff
07-18-2011, 7:59 AM
Wishing you all the best Mitch, and I'm sorry you have to deal with all of this at once. I'm glad you have loving children in your corner.

It sounds like you're making the best possible decisions given the circumstances. Theres been a lot of advances in pancreatic cancer treatment, my Aunt lived well for over 20 years after being diagnosed with it.

Trailboss60
07-18-2011, 8:12 AM
if its most likely going to get ugly, ppt them to a close friend or a couple close friends.


PPT...http://www.acronymattic.com/PPT.html
Paw pressure test?:D

He said that he moved them to his parents house, over 100 miles away..

bandook
07-22-2011, 5:21 PM
Exactly.. half her shoes.. half her purses.. half of her non-gift jewlery..

You would be surprised how fast she would lose interest in your guns.

The best thing is to keep it civil and just use logic to move her towards your posistion.. and have a great lawyer.

Yup! EXACTLY half her shoes. Like you keep the left one and she can keep the right one.

Best to figure this out as amicably as possible.