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vincewarde
07-12-2011, 1:35 PM
I thought this deserved a thread of its' own. This is BIG!



July 12, 2011 - In a first for a major US newspaper, the Deseret News publishes a huge, multi-page article on Gunwalker. (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700151126/Congress-investigates-US-policy-that-purposely-put-guns-in-hands-of-Mexican-drug-cartels.html) In an exhaustive, beginning to current time account of the scandal they compare it to Watergate and Iran - Contra. They also build a strong, fact based case that the true motive of the program was to create a crisis that would enable a "crackdown on guns in the US" and ensure the confirmation of Andrew Traver as ATF head. The article also reports accusations that Holder is lying about when he knew about the operation.

llamatrnr
07-12-2011, 1:47 PM
Thanks for posting . . .

Wernher von Browning
07-12-2011, 1:50 PM
The very last paragraphs are the stunner.

===============

If Dodson hadn’t become a whistleblower, the gun used to kill Agent Brian Terry would have been identified as being from a U.S. gun dealer, but the ATF connection would have been covered up, she says. This, in turn, would have reinforced Mexico’s claim that U.S. guns are flooding the border and bolstered America’s anti-gun lobby’s argument that the U.S. needs tighter gun control laws

But, she writes, whoever threw down the weapon that killed Terry made a mistake.

“He underestimated the courage of Brian Terry’s colleagues in U.S. law enforcement, and the need of ATF Agent John Dodson, to tell the truth. The only question now for Representative Issa’s committee and the American people is — do we have the guts to listen?”

====================

Read that carefully. The article suggests that "whoever threw down the weapon that killed Terry made a mistake." In other words, the killing of agent Terry was calculated, premeditated, to steer opinion against guns. It suggests that Terry may have been set up. That he was "sacrificed for the greater good." They deliberately planted the gun but they screwed up. I don't think that can be proven yet -- but here we have a MSM outlet making a pretty damning suggestion.

Watergate was never like this.

wash
07-12-2011, 1:53 PM
I liked the article but I've never heard of the paper.

eaglemike
07-12-2011, 1:53 PM
Great article - thanks!

lrcasey
07-12-2011, 2:10 PM
Awesome article! Thank you.

Librarian
07-12-2011, 2:10 PM
Deseret News is fairly local - about 80,000 print circulation (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705372009/Deseret-News-posts-circulation-gains-bucking-national-trend-of-declining-print-circulation.html).

proclone1
07-12-2011, 2:19 PM
Deseret News is fairly local - about 80,000 print circulation (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705372009/Deseret-News-posts-circulation-gains-bucking-national-trend-of-declining-print-circulation.html).

Although it's local and not HUGE like the 10 or so big name players in mass media, it was the most articulate article I've seen summarizing the key players and timeline. It definitely helped me to understand the situation better.

Gio
07-12-2011, 2:35 PM
Interesting

Deucer
07-12-2011, 3:01 PM
Good read, thanks for posting.

kpezzy
07-12-2011, 3:30 PM
Time to start arresting the people involved at the top of the heap, if it was you or I we would already be in prison

CalBear
07-12-2011, 3:40 PM
Few have ever heard of this scandal, and I'd guess it's one of the biggest examples of corruption from our government in some time. It's absolutely astonishing how little traction this has gotten in the news. Top officials should be jailed for this.

Bhobbs
07-12-2011, 3:42 PM
Few have ever heard of this scandal, and I'd guess it's one of the biggest examples of corruption from our government in some time. It's absolutely astonishing how little traction this has gotten in the news. Top officials should be jailed for this.

The media doesn't want it to get traction. The media supports PGR and F&F.

halifax
07-12-2011, 3:50 PM
So little traction, in fact, that, despite it, Holder can still go ahead with his plans to implement the policy changes that this fiasco was meant to justify. First, the multiple long gun reporting requirements, next, who knows, a new AWB probably. We cannot let this issue die.

MP301
07-12-2011, 3:50 PM
Few have ever heard of this scandal, and I'd guess it's one of the biggest examples of corruption from our government in some time. It's absolutely astonishing how little traction this has gotten in the news. Top officials should be jailed for this.

I talked to an FBI agent a few weeks ago and asked him about it. he was either clueless or acted like he was clueless regarding gunwalker.

Very very good article.

cmaynes
07-12-2011, 4:22 PM
VERY GOOD Article.....

gun toting monkeyboy
07-12-2011, 4:37 PM
Issa is not going to let this go. He is the type that will keep going until some heads roll. And maybe even a bit farther than that. And the ATF head met with his staff on the 4th in a secret meeting WITHOUT the ATF lawyers. He just brought his own. You want to bet he saw that he was going to be made the patsy, and rolled over on who knew what, when? I think in the next few weeks, Issa will bring in Holder and several others, and let them testify as to what they knew when. And if they lie, he will go after them for perjury when they are done.

-Mb

vincewarde
07-12-2011, 5:15 PM
At some point the mainstream media will have to cover this the way the Deseret News did today. When they do things are going to get very, very hot for the administration. It may come down to how many people kept copies of documents, recordings, etc. in order to protect themselves. Holder, Obama or both may be taken down by someone with proof or just someone who does not want to go to jail for another person's crimes.

In any case, we should all salute those brave and professional ATF Agents who came forth with the truth. God Bless them!

ZenDaddy
07-12-2011, 5:21 PM
fwiw:

The Deseret News is a newspaper published in Salt Lake City, Utah, and is Utah's oldest continuously published daily newspaper. It has the second largest daily circulation in the state behind The Salt Lake Tribune. The Deseret News is owned by Deseret News Publishing Company, a subsidiary of Deseret Management Corporation, which is a for-profit business holdings company owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (colloquially known as the Mormon or LDS Church

From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deseret_News)

Ultra conservative media

RP1911
07-12-2011, 6:08 PM
sharing it on Facebook.

VW*Mike
07-12-2011, 6:45 PM
Great article, shared on Facebook as well

gunsmith
07-12-2011, 7:48 PM
good article, I too shared it on FB but deseret is hardly mainstream, I wish mainstream was this astute when it comes to the gun runner in chief.

fuenstock
07-12-2011, 8:08 PM
I'm sending the link to this article to my local news channels in the hope that they cover it. I have not seen a single mention of it on the local news, pretty sad.

eaglemike
07-12-2011, 8:47 PM
After thinking this over a bit, I have to disagree that this is close to Watergate. It's far worse. No one died as a result of Watergate. Then to follow up with the EO stuff? Thank goodness for the whistle-blowers. This situation is Chicago politics.

cortayack
07-12-2011, 8:52 PM
I'm sending the link to this article to my local news channels in the hope that they cover it. I have not seen a single mention of it on the local news, pretty sad.


ME either.....Not too many people know about this.....I wonder why?

rjh4758
07-12-2011, 10:49 PM
It's sad that Casey Anthony BS is more important than this scandal. I just talked to my parents tonight, both retired and sit around watching hours of tv everyday, several hours of it news. They have heard nothing of it. When I explained what was happening they said they heard serving about it a few months ago but not recently. Fox and ABC have been about the only 2 major networks that mention it and it is minimal. This should be front page stuff and be the big story on the major networks but it is not.

Scarecrow Repair
07-12-2011, 10:59 PM
Read that carefully. The article suggests that "whoever threw down the weapon that killed Terry made a mistake." In other words, the killing of agent Terry was calculated, premeditated, to steer opinion against guns. It suggests that Terry may have been set up. That he was "sacrificed for the greater good." They deliberately planted the gun but they screwed up. I don't think that can be proven yet -- but here we have a MSM outlet making a pretty damning suggestion.

Watergate was never like this.

No no no, you are simply reading way too much into it. It's like saying someone made a mistake by having one too many beers in a bar before driving away, or reading a map wrong and taking a wrong turn and missing the start of a movie, or getting distracted and putting one too many spoons of sugar in a cup of coffee.

I have not seen ANY suggestions other than yours than someone deliberately killed the agent and left the gun behind to make guns look evil.

Your tin foil needs replenishment!

Scott Connors
07-12-2011, 11:00 PM
After thinking this over a bit, I have to disagree that this is close to Watergate. It's far worse. No one died as a result of Watergate. Then to follow up with the EO stuff? Thank goodness for the whistle-blowers. This situation is Chicago politics.

At the risk of violating Godwin's Law, I think that a better parallel is the Gleiwitz incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident .

pch_331
07-13-2011, 10:21 AM
cnn.com ran an article last night on it so that adds a bit of exposure.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/07/12/atf.guns/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

jrr
07-13-2011, 1:33 PM
It is a good article, but just sharing it here is not enough. We already know or suspect most of what the article says.

GO to the article linked above. Look for the "share" icons. Then post this on your facebook, twitter, reddit, etc accounts. if everyone on Calguns does this, then the story can get out to exponentially more people than it otherwise would.

Spread the word people!

kcbrown
07-13-2011, 3:03 PM
At some point the mainstream media will have to cover this the way the Deseret News did today.

I disagree.

The MSM doesn't have to do anything that isn't required by law.

The MSM has lots of political incentive to not cover this because by doing so, they raise the risk that someone like Ron Paul will somehow win the next election, and that would drastically reduce the amount of influence/control the owners of the MSM and their buddies have over government. They won't take that risk unless they believe the cat to be out of the bag already (at which point, they may as well try to make some money from it).

wash
07-13-2011, 3:45 PM
I really doubt they are afraid of Ron Paul.

I'm pretty sure that when they hear about Fast and Furious they are more disappointed that Obama and Holder failed to cover it up than they are that Mexicans and Border Patrol agents died. Once they get over that disappointment they look for the next story, hoping that Fast and Furious will go away if they don't pay attention.

The public is the victim in this because if Obama knew about this he should be impeached. If Obama didn't know about this he should be horrified and out for blood. The rational response for Obama is to clean house in the Justice Department and ATF and fix the problem by removing all anti-gun politics from policy decisions.

I'm not waiting with held breath.

choprzrul
07-13-2011, 3:52 PM
It is a good article, but just sharing it here is not enough. We already know or suspect most of what the article says.

GO to the article linked above. Look for the "share" icons. Then post this on your facebook, twitter, reddit, etc accounts. if everyone on Calguns does this, then the story can get out to exponentially more people than it otherwise would.

Spread the word people!

Good call jrr. I shared it to my FB page for all of my lib friends to feast upon.

.

ancora
07-13-2011, 3:59 PM
With a circulation of only 71,000, I hardly think the Deseret News is a mainstream newspaper.

kcbrown
07-13-2011, 4:45 PM
I really doubt they are afraid of Ron Paul.

I'm pretty sure that when they hear about Fast and Furious they are more disappointed that Obama and Holder failed to cover it up than they are that Mexicans and Border Patrol agents died. Once they get over that disappointment they look for the next story, hoping that Fast and Furious will go away if they don't pay attention.


Well, if they're not afraid of someone like Ron Paul winning the next election, then what are they afraid of?

This story has "sensational" written all over it. Why not milk it for all it's worth?

There has to be some reason the MSM is attempting to nullify it. The commanding influence the MSM has over voters ensures that, generally, whichever candidate manages to win, it's someone who is willing to "play ball" with those who own the MSM and their friends. If Mitt Romney won the next election, do you think the MSM owners and their friends would be any worse off in terms of their ability to directly influence government? Not at all.

There's a reason Obama has been so much like Bush Jr. was, who was so much like Clinton was, who was so much like Bush Sr. was. Those people all answered to the same masters: those who made their election possible. And it is not the voters who made their election possible (the voters are merely a herd to be shepherded), but the MSM and those with real money and power.

And that means they have precious little to lose if Obama gets unseated, unless someone who is not willing to play ball somehow manages to get into office. Ron Paul is just one example of such a person.


Of course, the other alternative is that the MSM is attempting to keep this quiet at the request of those in government. While that would normally reverse the power relationships involved here, I do think that's within the realm of possibility, since keeping it quiet means those who own the MSM will have their influence over government strengthened further, and the MSM doesn't have much to lose by attempting to keep it quiet.

Or so they think. The MSM is getting less relevant with each passing year, as the people move away from it as their primary source of information and, instead, towards the internet. Failing to properly report such an important story merely serves to accelerate that process. And the less important the MSM becomes, the less influential it becomes, and that means it will lose its power to determine who gets into office.

wash
07-13-2011, 4:58 PM
There is a danger to that exodus from MSM.

There will be so many sources that look like one another and credibility will be a total crap-shoot.

Short attention spans and people only looking for news that they want to see will result in bigger things being glossed over.

If Fast and Furious had happened in 1993, every paper would have covered the story on the front page. The Internet is screwing us already.

Again, I think it is simpler than fear. Fast and Furious just supports an agenda that is popular among members of the media. They don't like to report when things they support go wrong.

jwkincal
07-13-2011, 5:07 PM
There is a danger to that exodus from MSM.


But you can't stop it. It is inevitable. And natural. Ever since Gutenburg, the fact that presses cost money made it possible for a shrinking minority to control the dissemination of information, but that doesn't represent the social condition or learning mechanic for which our species evolved.

The internet is changing, and will continue to change, all of that. MSM will go the way of the monarchy, and the resultant cultural and political changes are not presently forseeable... but it will be a more natural extension of the human organism, not the freakshow that has been shoveled upon us for the last few decades.

In the end, things may get ugly... even potentially to the internet's own undoing... but it will be interesting to watch!

paradox
07-13-2011, 5:40 PM
If Fast and Furious had happened in 1993, every paper would have covered the story on the front page. The Internet is screwing us already.

Nope, it would have been buried deeper than October Surprise.

http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m79519

The internet is the only thing keeping gunwalker alive, otherwise it would already be dead and buried with only the most hard core conspiracy theorists talking about it.

TKM
07-13-2011, 6:05 PM
Don't forget the latest and greatest from Honduras.

What's an act of war between friends?

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2011/07/breaking-news-source-claims-atfs-tampa.html

wash
07-13-2011, 6:32 PM
I read that web page and found a lot of "this guy said Bush met with the Iranians in 1980" in 1992.

I guess that means we will find about Fast and Furious in 2023.

The key difference here is that the coverup didn't work and we heard about the program before the plug was pulled.

A better comparison would be with Lewinski. That was all over the place even though Clinton was a gun grabbing liberal wet dream. The media couldn't stop that one because newspapers and over air broadcast network news were still relevant.

Sunwolf
07-13-2011, 6:47 PM
http://biggovernment.com/bmccarty/2011/07/12/project-gunrunner-tied-directly-to-president-obama/

jshoebot
07-13-2011, 8:29 PM
I have not seen ANY suggestions other than yours than someone deliberately killed the agent and left the gun behind to make guns look evil.

Your tin foil needs replenishment!

Then please explain: why would a cartel drugrunner, who just had a gunfight and murdered a Border Patrol agent, leave an AK at the scene of the crime? Would he not hold on to it, in anticipation of more gunfighting before the day was done? Obviously he has no qualms about using that AK to kill people, so why would he leave it? And what are the odds that it would have been one of the F&F guns that just happened to be left at the scene? Doesn't it seem a little odd?

You think the BATFE was knowingly allowing guns to be smuggled to cartels?! I think your tinfoil needs repleishment.

See how that works? :rolleyes:

mrrsquared79
07-13-2011, 9:04 PM
Great article, shared on Facebook as well

^+1

This was like a breath of fresh air where just the facts were presented and not some opinion of the situation dolled up and called 'news'.

steelrain82
07-13-2011, 9:34 PM
Posted it on Facebook also. Doubt many will read it as they can't be bothered with things more than a sentence or two.