PDA

View Full Version : CA State Parks telling me that a Taser is a Firearm... WTF


Danz la Nuit
07-11-2011, 7:49 PM
When I first bought my M26c taser I confirmed with the CA DOJ, CHP, SDSD, SDPD that a taser is 100% legal for 99% of California with a few restricted areas such as secure zones of airports, courthouses, etc...

When the CA DOJ rep called me back they even stated that a taser is not even considered a weapon in CA hence why it can be carried openly or concealed without any permits or restrictions.

Before going to a state beach last month I was bored enough to shoot off this email to see if I would run into any authoritarian rangers during my trip...

How should I handle this response? Should I reply back with what the CA DOJ rep stated? Should I see if a lawyer would be interested in looking at this? Should I request written confirmation from CA DOJ? Should I request written confirmation from the parks dept?

Thoughts?

Original email sent:

Are there any rules/regulations for state parks concerning the carry of CA legal tasers that might be different than the standard rules/regulations for the entire state of CA?

Email response: (apx 1 month later)

Your e-mail was forwarded to me for response. The courts have held that a Taser meets the definition of a firearm as defined by the California Penal Code. Therefore Tasers, other firearms and weapons are restricted in California State Parks per Title 14 of the California Code of Regulations, Section 4313 as follows:

4313. Weapons and Traps.
(a) No person shall carry, possess or discharge across, in or into any portion of any unit any weapon, firearm, spear, bow and arrow, trap, net, or device capable of injuring, or killing any person or animal, or capturing any animal, or damaging any public or private property, except in underwater parks or designated archery ranges where the Department of Parks and Recreation finds that it is in its best interests.
(b) Nothing herein contained shall be construed in derogation of the use of weapons permitted by law or regulation and to be used for hunting in any unit, or portion thereof, open to hunting.
(c) Firearms not having a cartridge in any portion of the mechanism, other unloaded weapons or devices such as traps, nets, and bows and arrows may be possessed within temporary lodging or mechanical mode of conveyance when such implements are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased, or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use.


Todd Y. Thames
Superintendent of Law Enforcement Services
916-653-5618 (tel:916-653-5618)
Cell: 916-417-0449 (tel:916-417-0449)
tthames@parks.ca.gov (tthames@parks.ca.gov)

California State Parks
Law Enforcement & Emergency Services Division
1416 9th Street, Rm 1431
Sacramento, CA 95814

stix213
07-11-2011, 8:04 PM
The original Taser from the 70's used a gunpowder propellant, so was in a sense a real gun. That's what the court case was referring to. Today's Taser uses a compressed gas. Someone should straighten these people out.

Librarian
07-11-2011, 8:13 PM
The courts have held that a Taser meets the definition of a firearm as defined by the California Penal Code.
Maybe. He ought to cite his source.

PC 16520 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/16520.html) says (a) As used in this part, "firearm" means any device,
designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a
barrel, a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of
combustion.

Taser (http://taser.com/products/personal-safety/taser-x26c#features) corp says TASER Cartridge

A replaceable module that allows for the engagement of targets at ranges up to 15 feet (4.5 meters). Integrates a nitrogen propulsion system, insulated TASER wire, probes, and AFID serialization. Compatible with both the TASER M and X models.

Older models used combustion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser).The Taser Public Defender used gunpowder as its propellant, which led the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to classify it as a firearm in 1976. If you have a nitrogen model, it is NOT a firearm under PC.

Now, is it aweapon ... or device capable of injuring, or killing any person or animal, or capturing any animal, or damaging any public or private property,I dunno.

dustoff31
07-11-2011, 8:20 PM
When I first bought my M26c taser I confirmed with the CA DOJ, CHP, SDSD, SDPD that a taser is 100% legal for 99% of California with a few restricted areas such as secure zones of airports, courthouses, etc...

When the CA DOJ rep called me back they even stated that a taser is not even considered a weapon in CA hence why it can be carried openly or concealed without any permits or restrictions.

Before going to a state beach last month I was bored enough to shoot off this email to see if I would run into any authoritarian rangers during my trip...

How should I handle this response? Should I reply back with what the CA DOJ rep stated? Should I see if a lawyer would be interested in looking at this? Should I request written confirmation from CA DOJ? Should I request written confirmation from the parks dept?

Thoughts?

Original email sent:

Are there any rules/regulations for state parks concerning the carry of CA legal tasers that might be different than the standard rules/regulations for the entire state of CA?

Email response: (apx 1 month later)

Your e-mail was forwarded to me for response. The courts have held that a Taser meets the definition of a firearm as defined by the California Penal Code. Therefore Tasers, other firearms and weapons are restricted in California State Parks per Title 14 of the California Code of Regulations, Section 4313 as follows:

4313. Weapons and Traps.
(a) No person shall carry, possess or discharge across, in or into any portion of any unit any weapon, firearm, spear, bow and arrow, trap, net, or device capable of injuring, or killing any person or animal, or capturing any animal, or damaging any public or private property, except in underwater parks or designated archery ranges where the Department of Parks and Recreation finds that it is in its best interests.
(b) Nothing herein contained shall be construed in derogation of the use of weapons permitted by law or regulation and to be used for hunting in any unit, or portion thereof, open to hunting.
(c) Firearms not having a cartridge in any portion of the mechanism, other unloaded weapons or devices such as traps, nets, and bows and arrows may be possessed within temporary lodging or mechanical mode of conveyance when such implements are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased, or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use.


Todd Y. Thames
Superintendent of Law Enforcement Services
916-653-5618 (tel:916-653-5618)
Cell: 916-417-0449 (tel:916-417-0449)
tthames@parks.ca.gov (tthames@parks.ca.gov)

California State Parks
Law Enforcement & Emergency Services Division
1416 9th Street, Rm 1431
Sacramento, CA 95814

Email him back and ask, So what are you saying? That a Taser is a firearm, or that it is some other prohibited weapon/device?

dicksailor
07-12-2011, 8:57 AM
I would say it falls under section A. It is a weapon. :(

(a) No person shall carry, possess or discharge across, in or into any portion of any unit any weapon, firearm, ...

However, confirmed to me in an email from Mr. Thames, current/retired LEO and licensed CCW holders can carry a firearm in CA State Parks. I would assume that only exempts the guns listed on your CCW though and still wouldn't cover "other weapons".

warbird
07-12-2011, 4:21 PM
I think this is a case of either the state parks not updating their regulations to comply with the law or the law needs changing to comply with current tazer models. A tazer can get you into trouble if you do more damage to a person than just shock them. when firing a Tazer someone does not know the medical history of the person being Tazed and just like with a CCW permit if your use was not rightous then you have serious problems. anything from assault with intent to do serious harm to manslaughter or second degree murder depending on the prosecutor. Good luck and lets hope you never have to use it.

Kid Stanislaus
07-12-2011, 4:59 PM
Maybe if the OP would send the State Park's response off to the DOJ and the subsequent DOJ response to the State Park then it just MAY get resolved. Don't count on it though, petty government officials can be helleciously stubborn.

todd2968
07-12-2011, 5:34 PM
That's just plain silly nit picky BS it's not like your hunting with it, or chasing down bunnies for fun. It is emergency only and if you shoot it you need a police report to get it reloaded.

Flopper
07-13-2011, 9:25 AM
Who cares what one ignorant (or anti-self defense) parks employee says?

It's not illegal in CA to CCW it--just do it. Concealed means concealed.

Crom
07-13-2011, 9:42 AM
Who cares what one ignorant (or anti-self defense) parks employee says?

It's not illegal in CA to CCW it--just do it. Concealed means concealed.

It is important that if a person in a position of authority is giving out wrong information to general public inquires, that that person be corrected so that in the future they give accurate and helpful information to persons that request it.

With respect to the OP, I don't know what is correct re a taser.

pepsi2451
07-13-2011, 1:01 PM
4313. Weapons and Traps.
(a) No person shall carry, possess or discharge across, in or into any portion of any unit any weapon, firearm, spear, bow and arrow, trap, net, or device capable of injuring, or killing any person or animal, or capturing any animal, or damaging any public or private property, except in underwater parks or designated archery ranges where the Department of Parks and Recreation finds that it is in its best interests.
(b) Nothing herein contained shall be construed in derogation of the use of weapons permitted by law or regulation and to be used for hunting in any unit, or portion thereof, open to hunting.
(c) Firearms not having a cartridge in any portion of the mechanism, other unloaded weapons or devices such as traps, nets, and bows and arrows may be possessed within temporary lodging or mechanical mode of conveyance when such implements are rendered temporarily inoperable or are packed, cased, or stored in a manner that will prevent their ready use.

Wouldn't that make it illegal to possess just about anything?:confused:

OleCuss
07-13-2011, 1:18 PM
I don't want a taser. I want to be able to carry bear spray. But it looks like bear spray may be illegal in our national parks - except in Alaska.

So I can carry my pistol in Yosemite, but apparently not bear spray?

stix213
07-13-2011, 1:18 PM
Wouldn't that make it illegal to possess just about anything?:confused:

Seems like a car fits the "device capable of injuring, or killing any person or animal" definition perfectly. I'd say you all have to walk to the park, but shoes can certainly injure a person or animal too, so not sure what to tell you. You could probably smother a squirrel with your shirt and pants, so best to just be completely naked.

Decoligny
07-13-2011, 1:22 PM
Seems like a car fits the "device capable of injuring, or killing any person or animal" definition perfectly. I'd say you all have to walk to the park, but shoes can certainly injure a person or animal too, so not sure what to tell you. You could probably smother a squirrel with your shirt and pants, so best to just be completely naked.

A person can wrap thier hands around someone's throat and strangle them.

Does that mean we have to amputate the hands to enter the park?

Ctwo
07-13-2011, 1:40 PM
It is important that if a person in a position of authority is giving out wrong information to general public inquires, that that person be corrected so that in the future they give accurate and helpful information to persons that request it.

With respect to the OP, I don't know what is correct re a taser.

Also if that authority is directing enforcement...

mdimeo
07-13-2011, 2:03 PM
It is emergency only and if you shoot it you need a police report to get it reloaded.

That is certainly untrue. I have multiple cartriges for mine, and have test fired it in my backyard.

stix213
07-13-2011, 2:55 PM
That is certainly untrue. I have multiple cartriges for mine, and have test fired it in my backyard.

Correct. Cartridges come out easy (not easy enough for my taste to be able to swap out IN THE MIDDLE of a fight, but still easy). If someone asks me about tasers I will generally remove the cartridge and give them a little light show. It sends an impressive little lightning bolt across the face.

Replacement cartridges can just be ordered online.

Danz la Nuit
07-13-2011, 2:59 PM
That is certainly untrue. I have multiple cartridges for mine, and have test fired it in my backyard.

He was likely referring to the C2 model.

I have the M26c model, which has replaceable cartridges.

Danz la Nuit
07-13-2011, 3:02 PM
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/Reasoning/Taser.jpg

dad
07-13-2011, 3:11 PM
Possible PC for a taser.
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=5984989078+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

dad
07-13-2011, 3:14 PM
http://law.justia.com/codes/california/2010/pen/12650-12655.html

MasterYong
07-13-2011, 3:29 PM
Anyone know why you need a felony background check to buy any model other than the C2??? I ask because the only site that taser links to from their own website that sells the units wont sell the two better models with a felony background check. Is there something different about the design? Maybe that's why the state park thinks it's a firearm?

And why the X3 is LE-only?

mdimeo
07-13-2011, 4:23 PM
He was likely referring to the C2 model.

I have the M26c model, which has replaceable cartridges.

As does the C2. It's what I have.

BigDogatPlay
07-13-2011, 5:59 PM
FWIW 14 CCR 4313 says 'any weapon'.... the department's stance, aside from the response about the court case that was / is mooted by the design change in Taser cartridges, is that they consider the Taser a weapon. It's a fairly easy leap of logic to make given that Taser is pretty much sold and marketed as a weapon to be used for self defense.

While we as law abiding citizens who want to be able to defend ourselves find it unacceptable, it is still the law and the position of the people who are tasked with enforcing it is that Taser is a no go. The only recourse here would be to get Title 14 updated.

stormy_clothing
07-13-2011, 6:25 PM
to the op - really you can't guess that the most restrictive policy is going to be your answer - right or wrong it's not important unless you can cite a law thatpenalizes them for being wrong there is no reason for them to suggest it's acceptable.

duh