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View Full Version : BATF Classifies .223, 6.5 Grendel and 6.8SPC as Pistol Round


bussda
07-11-2011, 2:33 PM
See http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2011/07/in-other-atf-news.html and http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/BATF-Classifies-223-65-t106361.html&pid=1496491#entry1496491

cmaynes
07-11-2011, 2:36 PM
It will be pretty tough to defend in court- the military rifle round in NATO IS 5.56x45mm (and 7.62x51mm)

popcorn run in progress....

bussda
07-11-2011, 2:38 PM
More http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2011/07/11/reclassification-of-223-6-5-grendel-and-6-8-spc/

Exposed
07-11-2011, 2:44 PM
Next. .308 will also be considered a pistol round. Hell, so is 7.62x54r and 30-06 lol.

FullMetalJacket
07-11-2011, 2:46 PM
Any way something like this could work to our favor?

For instance, if .223 is a pistol round...and it's not possible to feed it through the grip of a handgun...might that be a means of challenging California's ban on pistols that feed from outside the grip?

Just tryin' to think outside the box...

Bhobbs
07-11-2011, 2:48 PM
Any way something like this could work to our favor?

For instance, if .223 is a pistol round...and it's not possible to feed it through the grip of a handgun...might that be a means of challenging California's ban on pistols that feed from outside the grip?

Just tryin' to think outside the box...

I don't see how that would benefit us at all but I'm not in the know like the guys we have working on our side.

BlindRacer
07-11-2011, 2:48 PM
And don't forget that Saturday Night Special, the 50 bmg pocket gun. Capable of firing 47 rounds, full auto, while still fitting nicely in the palm of your hand. :cool:

ChuangTzu
07-11-2011, 2:51 PM
See http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2011/07/in-other-atf-news.html and http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/BATF-Classifies-223-65-t106361.html&pid=1496491#entry1496491

I've always wondered how .223 had an exemption from being considered a pistol round in the first place, considering 7.62x39 has long been considered pistol ammo.

epcii
07-11-2011, 2:52 PM
And don't forget that Saturday Night Special, the 50 bmg pocket gun. Capable of firing 47 rounds, full auto, while still fitting nicely in the palm of your hand. :cool:

I'd like to ankle-carry one of those as a BUG. :)

rjh4758
07-11-2011, 2:58 PM
WOW! Looks like the Obama gun restrictions and gun regulations are coming now. Guess they need to push them through before Holder gets removed.

gun toting monkeyboy
07-11-2011, 2:59 PM
You know, posting videos of your bullets penetrating a bullet proof vest on youtube probably wasn't the best of ideas. Especially when your main product is the 5.7x28, which is commonly found in pistols... And trying to say that you are using a copper-zinc alloy. Copper+Zinc=Brass. Brass is specifically a no-no in the 1968 GCA for making solid handgun bullets out of. These jack***es decided to play games on the edge of legal, and managed to give the BATFE an excuse to crack down AND get 3 common rifle cartridges declared to be pistol cartridges. Good job guys. Now we are going to have to fight this because you were to danged stupid to read the freakin' laws. I admit that the bullets look cool. But marketing your round as an AP handgun round and then crying when the ATF comes knocking doesn't get you a lot of sympathy from me.

-Mb

yellowfin
07-11-2011, 3:02 PM
Thanks are due for this to all those who voted in the current White House occupant, without whom we might have a president willing to dissolve the ATF or at very least strip them of all regulatory pattern. Thanks a lot guys, way to pull for the team. :mad:

Chatterbox
07-11-2011, 3:24 PM
If this is the case, I presume it means that M855 and SS109 are now unimportable and not manufacturable for sale to civilians.

dwtt
07-11-2011, 3:37 PM
Jay Wolf of Elite Ammunition in that link says the BATFE has ruled the solid copper bullets he makes is classified as pistol ammunition. The regular lead core bullets you and I shoot are not part of this determination. Also, looking at the BATFE web site, there's no mention on their rulings web page: http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/
Maybe we should wait until this is verified or someone understands the ruling before we come up with knee jerk responses?

barrym66
07-11-2011, 3:43 PM
Yikes...dupe thread (by 8 minutes. :o ) :dupe:

Mods, can we merge with http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=454402?

GettoPhilosopher
07-11-2011, 3:45 PM
Maybe we should wait until this is verified or someone understands the ruling before we come up with knee jerk responses?
+9,000


Sent from my HERO200 using Tapatalk

Scott Connors
07-11-2011, 3:50 PM
M855/SS109, as well as .30 M2 AP black-tip, are specifically exempted by BATF as being
"particularly suited" for sporting purposes. I won't hold my breath as to how long this lasts, though.

hammerhands32
07-11-2011, 3:56 PM
Hopefully Barnes and Magtech have barricaded their doors and notified their lawers.

1stLineGear
07-11-2011, 4:06 PM
Pardon my ignorance but how does this affect us?

rjh4758
07-11-2011, 4:11 PM
Here is why they were forced to stop selling these bullets:



Armor piercing ammunition
18 U.S.C., 921(a)(17)(B)

A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or


A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.






These bullets were made of brass and all of the calibers .223, 6.5 Grendel and 6.8SPC may be used in a handgun. We are cutting hairs here but if you look at the law they were illegal.

barrym66
07-11-2011, 4:23 PM
Armor piercing ammunition
18 U.S.C., 921(a)(17)(B)

A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.[/I]



The phrase, "may" and "intended for use in a handgun" can be interpreted many ways, no doubt the anti's at the ATF would interpret it in whatever way had the most negative effect on the shooting community.

What really gets me on this is why did the ATF feel the need to do the whole SWAT deployment thing...would not a "Cease and Desist" letter be more appropriate and suitable?

Seems like playing the SWAT card is used for everything from playground bully fights (look it up) to serving legitimate high-risk warrants these days. :mad:

Lastly - this is an example of why I think pukka rifles converted into quasi-handguns are such a bad idea. Cool, maybe, but like UOC, it's not doing us any favors.

edlegault
07-11-2011, 4:33 PM
So, here in the "Condor" area of California, we can't use lead bullets for game or varmits, but now can't use non-lead bullets either because they are "body armor defeating bullets"?

...(sigh) sounds like a long, long series of more law suits...

IntoForever
07-11-2011, 4:39 PM
And if the idiots in power get the hand-gun ammo bill passed again, this would have a really bad effect on everyone who uses .223 ammo.

rjh4758
07-11-2011, 4:45 PM
So, here in the "Condor" area of California, we can't use lead bullets for game or varmits, but now can't use non-lead bullets either because they are "body armor defeating bullets"?

...(sigh) sounds like a long, long series of more law suits...

Solid copper is still legal and not listed as AP. I doubt any hunting calibers beyond the ones listed above will be affected. I do not see the ATF going after anyone else for copper bullets used in sporting applications.

Like someone else had stated, the youtube video shooting one of Elite Ammunition bullets through a not one but 3 bullet proof vests got more attention than intended.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOP3u7ueI-g&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOP3u7ueI-g&feature=related)

blazeaglory
07-11-2011, 5:49 PM
If this is the case, I presume it means that M855 and SS109 are now unimportable and not manufacturable for sale to civilians.

Technically that is a 5.56 round:)

Maybe if all the AR15 pistol manufacturers stopped making AR pistols then the .223 could be reclassified as a rifle round;)

Either way, at this rate, I think all penetrator type rounds will soon be on the list. Who knows. Ill wait and see

rjh4758
07-11-2011, 6:03 PM
Maybe if all the AR15 pistol manufacturers stopped making AR pistols then the .223 could be reclassified as a rifle round;)



Too late gates open, there are and always will be these pistols on the market.

If this is the case, I presume it means that M855 and SS109 are now unimportable and not manufacturable for sale to civilians.

Core is steel and lead so it is legal. If the core were all steel or steel and another listed metal then they would be illegal.

anthonyca
07-11-2011, 6:04 PM
I have been waiting for this since I first saw an ar pistol.

Sam .223
07-11-2011, 6:06 PM
so all the wolf steel core is now going to be illegal?

blazeaglory
07-11-2011, 6:07 PM
Core is steel and lead so it is legal. If the core were all steel or steel and another listed metal then they would be illegal.

I thought M855 was pure steel core?

I mean, either way, technically its classified as 5.56 anyways right?

rjh4758
07-11-2011, 6:24 PM
so all the wolf steel core is now going to be illegal?

Wolf is steel jacketed not steel core.

I thought M855 was pure steel core?

I mean, either way, technically its classified as 5.56 anyways right?

M855 is ammo. SS109 is the projectile used in M855 ammo.

5.56 lowers are also used in AR pistols so no it is not safe. Many AR pistols are DROS in CA as 5.56 cal. Although not listed in the release from Elite Ammunition that 5.56 as a caliber not affected buy the ATF charges. It is still ammo that can be used in a pistol and is till illegal to manufacture such ammo.

Write Winger
07-11-2011, 6:26 PM
Damn me and my PLR 16...

1859sharps
07-11-2011, 6:27 PM
I remember in the 90's when this happened to 7.62x39. all that supper cheap steel core ammo out of china disappeared over night. no more 1200 rounds to your door for about $125 (99 + shipping if memory serves) all because someone decided to build a AK pistol and sold enough to trigger a look at 7.62x39 ammo.

This really doesn't have anything to do with who is in the white house, the law is the law until over turned or changed.

nick
07-11-2011, 6:39 PM
Hmm, BATFE just seems to be hellbent on screwing up more and more.

So, is that what Obama meant by "working on gun control under the radar"?

blazeaglory
07-11-2011, 6:42 PM
Wolf is steel jacketed not steel core.



M855 is ammo. SS109 is the projectile used in M855 ammo.

5.56 lowers are also used in AR pistols so no it is not safe. Many AR pistols are DROS in CA as 5.56 cal. Although not listed in the release from Elite Ammunition that 5.56 as a caliber not affected buy the ATF charges. It is still ammo that can be used in a pistol and is till illegal to manufacture such ammo.

NATO is the SS109 projectile and the U.S. is the M855 projectile.

So is M855 classified as copper core or a mix? I was under the impression that it was steel tipped but pure copper core. I only ask because I really like the ammo.

Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855A1 (United States):62-grain green tip w/19-grain steel penetrator tip and a solid copper core

Doesnt a solid copper core constitute armor piercing under law?

What Im asking is that these are not safe and might soon be on "the list"?

rjh4758
07-11-2011, 6:53 PM
NATO is the SS109 projectile and the U.S. is the M855 projectile.

So is M855 classified as copper core or a mix? I was under the impression that it was steel tipped but pure copper core. I only ask because I really like the ammo.

Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855A1 (United States):62-grain green tip w/19-grain steel penetrator tip and a solid copper core

Doesnt a solid copper core constitute armor piercing under law?

What Im asking is that these are not safe and might soon be on "the list"?

You are right I mixed that up.

But the M855 and SS109 are OK but the M855A1 sounds like it will be a no go because the lead that and steel core that was used in the M855 was replaced with steel and copper in the M855A1. I would think that it would exceed the 25% copper limit.

blazeaglory
07-11-2011, 6:57 PM
You are right I mixed that up.

But the M855 and SS109 are OK but the M855A1 sounds like it will be a no go because the lead that and steel core that was used in the M855 was replaced with steel and copper in the M855A1. I would think that it would exceed the 25% copper limit.


Yeah thats the one. Fingers crossed:(

EDIT: I was confusing the M855A1 with the normal M855. Im good:)

Don29palms
07-11-2011, 7:04 PM
THIS IS BS! .223, 6.5 Grendel and 6.8SPC are not pistol rounds.

BajaJames83
07-11-2011, 7:05 PM
this isnt gonna go over too good

mycrstuff
07-11-2011, 7:08 PM
There is supposed to be an exemption under Federal law for the 5.56 penetrator (m855) and the 30.06 AP round as they were designed as rifle rounds. The 7.62 Nato AP is not supposed to have one due to it being designed for machine guns only.

blazeaglory
07-11-2011, 7:10 PM
That sucks because I thought .223 were designed as rifle rounds as well?

nick
07-11-2011, 7:11 PM
I remember in the 90's when this happened to 7.62x39. all that supper cheap steel core ammo out of china disappeared over night. no more 1200 rounds to your door for about $125 (99 + shipping if memory serves) all because someone decided to build a AK pistol and sold enough to trigger a look at 7.62x39 ammo.

This really doesn't have anything to do with who is in the white house, the law is the law until over turned or changed.

I think, you're misplacing the blame here. It wasn't because "someone built a pistol chambered in a rifle round", those exist for most rifle rounds. You can build a 4x4 car with a big diesel engine, it still won't make it a truck. The problem here is with the dishonest agenda behind such rulings, with with calling the grass pink with a straight face because it suits that agenda. Not to mention that the whole separation of ammo into handgun ammo and rifle ammo and applying different standards to them based on such classification is ridiculous to begin with. Can you think of any SOUND and HONEST reason to do so?

Also note who was in the Office when 7.62x39 was classified as handgun round. See any correlation?

Bhobbs
07-11-2011, 7:12 PM
Pretty soon every round capable of being fired from a man portable firearm will be a pistol round.

timdps
07-11-2011, 7:12 PM
So the point of banning steel core pistol rounds is to protect vest wearers (mostly LEO)? These freshly reassigned rounds are going to punch a vest no matter what the round construction is. So what it the point of this reassignment?

Tim

rjh4758
07-11-2011, 7:15 PM
Just wait! I remember seeing an H&K type pistol in 308 or 7.62. I am sure if the ATF wanted to exploit this law all they would have to do is look at the Thompson contender and say "Hey that's a pistol. What calibers does that come in" then there goes all the copper ammo and I love Barnes.

Bhobbs
07-11-2011, 7:17 PM
So the point of banning steel core pistol rounds is to protect vest wearers (mostly LEO)? These freshly reassigned rounds are going to punch a vest no matter what the round construction is. So what it the point of this reassignment?

Tim

Picking away slowly at the 2A. We are winning in the courts so they are going to use ways in which we have no recourse.

Can you sue to over turn a BATFE ruling or what ever you call this?

Scott Connors
07-11-2011, 7:17 PM
I'm pretty sure that 7.62mm NATO is already classified as a pistol round because of the Thompson Contender. Also, IIRC, back when the "AP" ban was passed 7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP rounds were specifically listed.

Petro6golf
07-11-2011, 7:18 PM
I guess im an idiot but what does this mean?

Bhobbs
07-11-2011, 7:20 PM
I guess im an idiot but what does this mean?

It means that because these are now "pistol" rounds they have to comply with the ban on armor piercing bullets.


Also you have to be 21 to buy it.

Wow I just remembered that. That's bullsh*t. If you are under 21 you cannot buy ammo for your AR15 that you legally own because you are not 21.

blazeaglory
07-11-2011, 7:21 PM
ATF AP Classified Rounds

All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core
German made 9mm Para. with steel core
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (not copper)
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core
7.6239 ammo with steel core bullets

ATF Exempted Rounds

5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo

I guess they will update this list soon huh?

nick
07-11-2011, 7:24 PM
Just wait! I remember seeing an H&K type pistol in 308 or 7.62. I am sure if the ATF wanted to exploit this law all they would have to do is look at the Thompson contender and say "Hey that's a pistol. What calibers does that come in" then there goes all the copper ammo and I love Barnes.

Isn't that what they're doing, little-by-little? You know, frog, hot water, ban something, let them adjust (with a more expensive workaround), ban some more, rinse and repeat until gun ownership is a lot of hassle (and carries a great risk of becoming a felon for something so innocent and ridiculous that most sane people wouldn't even think it was a crime of any kind in the first place) and becomes so expensive that only a few can afford it. At which point you can ban more, as there'll be too few gun owners to even protest it in any meaningful way.

nick
07-11-2011, 7:26 PM
So the point of banning steel core pistol rounds is to protect vest wearers (mostly LEO)? These freshly reassigned rounds are going to punch a vest no matter what the round construction is. So what it the point of this reassignment?

Tim

Are you seriously trying to find a legitimate reason for a gun law?

blazeaglory
07-11-2011, 7:28 PM
Isn't that what they're doing, little-by-little? You know, frog, hot water, ban something, let them adjust (with a more expensive workaround), ban some more, rinse and repeat until gun ownership is a lot of hassle (and carries a great risk of becoming a felon for something so innocent and ridiculous that most sane people wouldn't even think it was a crime of any kind in the first place) and becomes so expensive that only a few can afford it. At which point you can ban more, as there'll be too few gun owners to even protest it in any meaningful way.

Socialism is closet communism.

Its for our own good remember??

nick
07-11-2011, 7:29 PM
ATF AP Classified Rounds

All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core
German made 9mm Para. with steel core
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (not copper)
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core
7.6239 ammo with steel core bullets

ATF Exempted Rounds

5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo

I guess they will update this list soon huh?

That .25 ACP sure is an armor piercer. Then again, I'm making the mistake of trying to apply logic to gun laws and the various entities regulating all things gun.

FourTenJaeger
07-11-2011, 7:31 PM
Are you serious? Is anyone doing anything? How about a lawsuit? America is dying, our constitution is dying,

AND NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING BECAUSE AMERICAN IDOL IS STILL ON! :mad:

nick
07-11-2011, 7:34 PM
Socialism is closet communism.

Its for our own good remember??

I don't know, I'm quite sure it negatively affects my blood pressure. Shooting out in the desert on Sunday, on the other hand, was quite relaxing. Two more people got hooked on shooting (the trick is to get them to shoot for the first time, the rest is easy and addictive :)), a husband and wife, and the wife is now talking about building an AR (and, o horror, a 5.56/.223 AR-15, at that :D).

wash
07-11-2011, 7:46 PM
You can make a pistol in any caliber and there are lots of brass bullets out there.

Eventually this stuff will reach a point where a lawsuit will be able to roll back this whole pistol ammunition definition.

Since I own a 6.8 SPC that I want to hunt with, I hope that is sooner rather than later.

rjh4758
07-11-2011, 7:52 PM
I don't know, I'm quite sure it negatively affects my blood pressure. Shooting out in the desert on Sunday, on the other hand, was quite relaxing. Two more people got hooked on shooting (the trick is to get them to shoot for the first time, the rest is easy and addictive :)), a husband and wife, and the wife is now talking about building an AR (and, o horror, a 5.56/.223 AR-15, at that :D).

That is the only way we are going to win this battle is by increasing our numbers. A non gun owner has no vested interest in what gun laws pass. So by making new gun owners we make voters that will consider their second amendment rights when they vote. There are approximately 80 million gun owners and 300 million people in the US so we are a minority. We are only about 26% of the population so we need to introduce more people to gun ownership, firearms related sport and just a great hobbie.


Nice job Nick

jdberger
07-11-2011, 8:10 PM
So, here in the "Condor" area of California, we can't use lead bullets for game or varmits, but now can't use non-lead bullets either because they are "body armor defeating bullets"?

...(sigh) sounds like a long, long series of more law suits...

Or perhaps this is a blessing in disguise. One of the advantages of the oppressive State and its Byzantine gun regulations is that so many are contradictory - and thus vulnerable to legal challenges.

blazeaglory
07-11-2011, 8:22 PM
The first thing a socialist/communist dictator does is disarm the people under the guise of protection of the people. Once our 2A rights are destroyed everything else will be sure to follow.

taperxz
07-11-2011, 8:30 PM
Or perhaps this is a blessing in disguise. One of the advantages of the oppressive State and its Byzantine gun regulations is that so many are contradictory - and thus vulnerable to legal challenges.

Yep! Its either save the condor or the people wearing bullet proof vests. You can't have it both ways!

m1aowner
07-11-2011, 8:30 PM
Are you serious? Is anyone doing anything? How about a lawsuit? America is dying, our constitution is dying,

AND NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING BECAUSE AMERICAN IDOL IS STILL ON! :mad:

It's been DOA since the FED Reserve took over.

DannyInSoCal
07-11-2011, 8:50 PM
WHERE IS THE NRA in this cluster phack?

Chatterbox
07-11-2011, 9:35 PM
Yep! Its either save the condor or the people wearing bullet proof vests. You can't have it both ways!

Sure you can - no ammo, no hazard to condor OR people in bullet proof vest. It's a win-win!

GettoPhilosopher
07-11-2011, 9:38 PM
Yep! Its either save the condor or the people wearing bullet proof vests. You can't have it both ways!

Who's going to save the vest-wearing condors? 0_o

timdps
07-11-2011, 9:45 PM
Are you seriously trying to find a legitimate reason for a gun law?

No... I was asking how they could possibly justify this new "law".

DocSkinner
07-11-2011, 9:59 PM
Pretty soon every round capable of being fired from a man portable firearm will be a pistol round.

according to JD Jones (SSK Industries) and Thompson Center (look up all the contender barrel calibers), and many others, they already are.

nick
07-11-2011, 10:27 PM
No... I was asking how they could possibly justify this new "law".

"We want to see how far we can push the boundaries of reality right now? Oh, and it's for the armor-wearing condor chicks."

Tarn_Helm
07-11-2011, 10:43 PM
WOW! Looks like the Obama gun restrictions and gun regulations are coming now. Guess they need to push them through before Holder gets removed. (edited by me)

You figured it out.

NO BATFE regulation is aimed at being less permissive.

ALL are aimed at being more restrictive of our rights.

That is always true.

Anyone who can prove otherwise should PM me.
:mad:

Bhobbs
07-11-2011, 11:34 PM
according to JD Jones (SSK Industries) and Thompson Center (look up all the contender barrel calibers), and many others, they already are.

Yeah I thought of that too. There is a hand gun capable of firing every small arm round you can think of.

winxp_man
07-12-2011, 12:01 AM
A .270 Encore pistol, 22-250,.308 ................ Very vague law! This will classify almost all rounds that most shoot as pistol rounds.


http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUCfjOIbNUOskT8Tg4ayMifAj8OT9aW saTm4h68VED5NqO1EuOtA

DarthSean
07-12-2011, 12:09 AM
My dad knows by far the most disturbing story about the ATF I've ever heard. An agent once admitted their true agenda-back in the '80s. I'll have to talk to him to double check all the details before I share it.

No... I was asking how they could possibly justify this new "law".

They don't. Liberals lack the capacity to think things through that far.

rjh4758
07-12-2011, 12:33 AM
No... I was asking how they could possibly justify this new "law".

This law is far from new, it is 25 years old. It went into affect in 1986 to stop to sale of the so call "cop killers". This was handgun ammo capable of going through standard vests. But what is new is what falls under this law. In 1986 ( to the best of my knowledge) there were no handguns in 223 but today there are. The way the law is worded it leaves the door open for a broad application. The sad part is most calibers have been made into a handgun at some point, all the way up to 600 NE and 50BMG.

chillin
07-12-2011, 12:53 AM
...... sucks for us all.... wen zombies attack. we might still have slingshots:nopity:

Wrangler John
07-12-2011, 4:40 AM
So, here in the "Condor" area of California, we can't use lead bullets for game or varmits, but now can't use non-lead bullets either because they are "body armor defeating bullets"?

...(sigh) sounds like a long, long series of more law suits...

Most of the lead free varmint bullets are powdered metal cores designed to be frangible, they disintegrate on impact. They are specifically designed not to penetrate on steel silhouettes or ricochet on hard targets. The monolithic copper solids are designed to expand, some are hollow points and others ballistic tipped. So these aren't covered. Now the Barnes Banded Solids are a copper/zinc alloy and are available in most calibers from .223 to .618. These may be a problem.

Quiet
07-12-2011, 5:48 AM
I remember in the 90's when this happened to 7.62x39. all that supper cheap steel core ammo out of china disappeared over night. no more 1200 rounds to your door for about $125 (99 + shipping if memory serves) all because someone decided to build a AK pistol and sold enough to trigger a look at 7.62x39 ammo.

This really doesn't have anything to do with who is in the white house, the law is the law until over turned or changed.

It wasn't an AK pistol.
Olympic Arms made their OA-93 (AR15 type gas-piston) pistol in 7.62x39mm. That's what got steel-core 7.62x39mm banned.

With all the AR pistols on the market in .223/5.56, 6.5Grendel and 6.8SPC; it was asking for the BATFE to take a look at those cartridges and think about reclassifying them as "handgun" cartridges for the purpose of AP ammo.

It's also kinda the reason why no firearm manufacture wants to make a 5.45x39mm handgun, so they won't get blamed for banning all the inexpensive surplus steel-core 5.45x39mm ammo (like Olympic Arms for the 7.62x39mm ammo).

GutPunch
07-12-2011, 7:42 AM
This is stupid. :(

Jake71
07-12-2011, 7:53 AM
I think we can also thank all those guys who couldn't buy a SBR and wanted to skirt around it and have a "pistol" AR made so they could buy that.

This is crap and I hope it gets overturned or something....

IntoForever
07-12-2011, 8:07 AM
That is the only way we are going to win this battle is by increasing our numbers. A non gun owner has no vested interest in what gun laws pass. So by making new gun owners we make voters that will consider their second amendment rights when they vote. There are approximately 80 million gun owners and 300 million people in the US so we are a minority. We are only about 26% of the population so we need to introduce more people to gun ownership, firearms related sport and just a great hobbie.


Nice job Nick
Doing my part as much as possible! Three new shooters in the last 2 months.

This is stupid. :(
You expected intelligence (from our govt.)??

DocSkinner
07-12-2011, 8:50 AM
I think we can also thank all those guys who couldn't buy a SBR and wanted to skirt around it and have a "pistol" AR made so they could buy that.

This is crap and I hope it gets overturned or something....

They should be able to own one - don't blame them. The last thing we need is infighting and blame laying WITHIN our ranks.

This type of comment reminds me of SASS not wanting to be a part of the 2A battle because the government wasn't going after the type of guns THEY use. It is divide and conquer tactics like this that will make sure we loose the battles. Next will be a ban on pistols in those calibers. This is where the Brady's get all their "even gun owners support reasonable bans"


First they came for...

gun toting monkeyboy
07-12-2011, 9:06 AM
I think we can also thank all those guys who couldn't buy a SBR and wanted to skirt around it and have a "pistol" AR made so they could buy that.

This is crap and I hope it gets overturned or something....

Wow. How clever. People who wanted a legal weapon are to blame, instead of the ones breaking the law and bragging about it online in videos. Great logic there. What exactly is skirting the law when it says that you can have an AR or AK pistol? :TFH:

-Mb

otalps
07-12-2011, 9:28 AM
I think we can also thank all those guys who couldn't buy a SBR and wanted to skirt around it and have a "pistol" AR made so they could buy that.

This is crap and I hope it gets overturned or something....

Well gee, you're welcome then.:rolleyes:

wash
07-12-2011, 9:33 AM
I think we can also thank all those guys who couldn't buy a SBR and wanted to skirt around it and have a "pistol" AR made so they could buy that.

This is crap and I hope it gets overturned or something....
You should be blaming the NFA and California then.

If people had a choice, SBRs would be far more popular than AK and AR pistols.

The first thing stopping that is the tax stamp required, the second thing is that California does not allow SBRs unless they are C&R which practically eliminates AKs and ARs from the possibility of becoming a legally owned SBR.

This whole thing is stupid but when you start blaming, get it right.

joefreas
07-12-2011, 10:27 AM
Has anyone looked at the ATF website. They are so full of it they are calling project gunrunner a success. They say they stopped guns from going to Mexcio and forget to mention anything about all the guns the "let walk".

This is the "back door" gun stuff obama was talking about.

cdtx2001
07-12-2011, 10:42 AM
Wolf sells mild steel core 7.62x39 FMJ rounds. I guess those will be a no no from now on.

1859sharps
07-12-2011, 10:57 AM
It wasn't an AK pistol.
Olympic Arms made their OA-93 (AR15 type gas-piston) pistol in 7.62x39mm. That's what got steel-core 7.62x39mm banned.

Actually I believe your right. I had forgotten about the OA-93. I just remember AK pistols were showing up about the same time. But now that you mention it, I do believe it was Olympic Arms that started it all.

I think, you're misplacing the blame here. It wasn't because "someone built a pistol chambered in a rifle round", those exist for most rifle rounds. You can build a 4x4 car with a big diesel engine, it still won't make it a truck. The problem here is with the dishonest agenda behind such rulings, with with calling the grass pink with a straight face because it suits that agenda. Not to mention that the whole separation of ammo into handgun ammo and rifle ammo and applying different standards to them based on such classification is ridiculous to begin with. Can you think of any SOUND and HONEST reason to do so?

Also note who was in the Office when 7.62x39 was classified as handgun round. See any correlation?

nope, not misplacing blame at all. While not may favorite organization, not everything the ATF does is evil. they to have to follow the law. Congress passed a law the defines what a handgun is. They also passed a law the defines armor piercing rounds. doesn't matter if the classifications are ridiculous or that some of the players in this have an agenda to disarm civilians, the law is the law. IF someone creates a new handgun that didn't exist previously that takes what has otherwise been a "rifle" round and now uses it in a handgun, the ATF is obligated to follow the law and reclassify the ammunition in question. 7.62x39 rifles outside of AK/SKS types were almost unheard of and no pistols of any significances (if any at all) for mainstream. So, ya it was someone making a handgun that took a rifle round that triggered this because of laws pass by congress before Clinton was in office.

Who was in office of the president at the time is irrelevant. Do you really think if a Republican was President right now that the ATF would some how be allowed to ignore the law?

Remember not all anti gun actions are taken by Democrats. 1989 saw Pres Bush issue an executive order banning importation of 19 "assault weapons" and in California our republican Governor signed the 89 assault weapons law. Both action made it much more ok to pass the 1994 Federal assault weapons law, which Bush Jr said he would sign a renewal/extension should one reach his desk. Personally I know longer trust simply party membership to protect my 2nd amendment rights ;) but hey that is just me

xrMike
07-12-2011, 1:08 PM
Wow I just remembered that. That's bullsh*t. If you are under 21 you cannot buy ammo for your AR15 that you legally own because you are not 21.Don't sweat it man, I will be your straw purchaser if you need one. ;)

Bhobbs
07-12-2011, 1:16 PM
Don't sweat it man, I will be your straw purchaser if you need one. ;)

It's cool. I turned 21 in April haha. I just remember having to argue with people when I would try to buy .22lr for my 10/22.

KAPCO
07-12-2011, 1:55 PM
Sick Rulers in the Capital,fight to keep our right for our 2nd ammendment was to stop tyranny. It was forseen so long ago. We are watched by the rest of the nation as the First to fall, Boot Leggin is what happened when they banned booze? Boot leg ammo without state taxes. Jerry Brown Underpants will loose more tax dollars.

bussda
07-12-2011, 2:00 PM
Some more http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/BATF-Classifies-223-65-t106361.html&st=20#

Note location raided is in Illinois. Nominee for BATFE Director is SAIC in Illinois. I think this is to generate positive press for BATFE, and not a part of Obama executive orders.

bussda
07-12-2011, 2:21 PM
Going from receiving the ruling to generating and serving the warrant in less then 24 hours. There is something more here...

or is it :TFH: time?

Ubermcoupe
07-12-2011, 2:38 PM
And don't forget ... the 50 bmg pocket gun...

I want one! :D

hammerhands32
07-12-2011, 3:53 PM
......nope, not misplacing blame at all. While not may favorite organization, not everything the ATF does is evil. they to have to follow the law. Congress passed a law the defines what a handgun is. They also passed a law the defines armor piercing rounds. doesn't matter if the classifications are ridiculous or that some of the players in this have an agenda to disarm civilians, the law is the law. IF someone creates a new handgun that didn't exist previously that takes what has otherwise been a "rifle" round and now uses it in a handgun, the ATF is obligated to follow the law and reclassify the ammunition in question. 7.62x39 rifles outside of AK/SKS types were almost unheard of and no pistols of any significances (if any at all) for mainstream. So, ya it was someone making a handgun that took a rifle round that triggered this because of laws pass by congress before Clinton was in office.......

Someone also made a rifle in handgun caliber, does that make it a rifle round again. :p Your argument has some good points but really this is just the Government stepping on gun owners once again.

scarville
07-12-2011, 6:38 PM
use strict;
use warnings;
use Government::BATFE::Regulation;

open FILE("<ListOfGunOwners");

my $newprogram = Government::BATFE::Regulation->new();

foreach my $gunowner (<FILE>) {
$newprogram->violate($gunowner);
}

close FILE;

print STDERR, "Any Questions?\n";

beep_gun
07-12-2011, 7:32 PM
I like elite ammuntion's 5.7 ammo. I like that it shoots accurate and without fail.
Maybe the batf doesn't like that good 5.7 ammo is available to the every day guy so they went after the rifle rounds first.
BTW I shot up all my elite ammo and they still have it listed for the 5.7.

oni.dori
07-12-2011, 7:41 PM
It will be pretty tough to defend in court- the military rifle round in NATO IS 5.56x45mm (and 7.62x51mm)

popcorn run in progress....

Isn't 7.62x51 the NATO designation for .308? I didn't see that in the list.

...7.62x39 has long been considered pistol ammo.

Are you serious!?

It looks like the BATFE is looking to help bolster DeLeon's laws. Could this be because they are planning on trying to implement a nation-wide version of it? :TFH: Is this going to hinder our fight against DeLeon's bill if it gets passed? Will it still hold if the ATF is stripped of all law enforcement abilities, and is relegated to a tax collection agency again? Seems like the Obama administration and the antis are really grasping at desperate measures to get their agendas across after Heller and McDonald.

I guess, in the end the only thing I care about right now is, how do we get this reversed?

FourTenJaeger
07-12-2011, 7:43 PM
Someone's boot needs to come down on the ATF. HARD. We're at a fighting point right now and we need not accept any sort of gun control or regulation. Not one inch.

frankm
07-13-2011, 1:25 PM
Someone's boot needs to come down on the ATF. HARD. We're at a fighting point right now and we need not accept any sort of gun control or regulation. Not one inch.

I don't know if we're at a fighting point, but it sure seems like they're pushing for one. What better way to implement martial law and socialist government than to create a violent reaction by a subset of the population. :eek:

DocSkinner
07-13-2011, 2:16 PM
Isn't 7.62x51 the NATO designation for .308? I didn't see that in the list.



Are you serious!?

It looks like the BATFE is looking to help bolster DeLeon's laws. Could this be because they are planning on trying to implement a nation-wide version of it? :TFH: Is this going to hinder our fight against DeLeon's bill if it gets passed? Will it still hold if the ATF is stripped of all law enforcement abilities, and is relegated to a tax collection agency again? Seems like the Obama administration and the antis are really grasping at desperate measures to get their agendas across after Heller and McDonald.

I guess, in the end the only thing I care about right now is, how do we get this reversed?

No tin foil hat required - I wouldn't put it past them to try ammo restrictions yet again. there have been many before, and and a national one like DeLeon's would be far easier than the other absurd ones (like the $10/round tax) that people have actually tried to put through.

But then when the gov't goes belly up in a few weeks, how will they pay to enforce any of it?

Wonder if they will temporarily stop performing the checks as their is no money - so then no one would be able to purchase ANY gun. Not sure how that would/could work. Just pondering.

FourTenJaeger
07-13-2011, 2:56 PM
Can under 21's still purchase .223 and such from private sellers? Dont tell me theyve restricted that somehow, A few of my friends and my other are under 21.

cmaynes
07-13-2011, 5:09 PM
I think getting the Nevada gun community on this would be the most effective thing to do- Harry Reid listens to them- and if they can make a big enough ruckus it would force some change....

DocSkinner
07-13-2011, 8:13 PM
I think getting the Nevada gun community on this would be the most effective thing to do- Harry Reid listens to them- and if they can make a big enough ruckus it would force some change....

1 compared to the eastcoast's 30 senators that are mostly anti-2A. Plus our 2.

BUT - hopefully this will wake up ALL the middle states that this isn't just a CA/NJ/NY/MA problem, but THEIR problem as well.

Dave A
07-13-2011, 9:56 PM
I would not count on Senator Reid to help out on gun control issues. From what I have seen, he is helpful on small issues and disappears on the big ones.

DocSkinner
07-13-2011, 11:50 PM
I would not count on Senator Reid to help out on gun control issues. From what I have seen, he is helpful on small issues and disappears on the big ones.

That is how you become a long term politician... Talk all you want, but make sure something comes up so you , darn it, just have to be absent on the vote.

Cowboy T
07-21-2011, 4:09 PM
The first thing a socialist/communist dictator does is disarm the people under the guise of protection of the people. Once our 2A rights are destroyed everything else will be sure to follow.

Same applies to fascist dictators, too. Either way, we must fight this.